Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds

In another thread, I mentioned 15 cars in RMI lot, yesterday, Wednesday - I meant to say they were at the IMG lot, just up the street. Indeed, the concessionaires may be doing overnighters (2+ nights).

I still think we want to know if different rules actually apply to them, and why.

In another thread, I mentioned 15 cars in RMI lot, yesterday, Wednesday - I meant to say they were at the IMG lot, just up the street.  Indeed, the concessionaires may be doing overnighters (2+ nights).

I still think we want to know if different rules actually apply to them, and why.

Why do you think the park clarified/revised its closure policy by saying that anyone who drives up on Monday can camp out and stay Tues and Wed and come down on Thursday or later--this policy would not interfere with any multi-day exercise.

I’m sure you all understand that letters from a few “disgruntled” skiers will have zero impact on decision making at the NPS.  Presenting the issue on this forum reaches relatively few people.  What is needed is a concerted effort to reach a much larger audience. I believe the most effective way to expand your audience is to circulate a petition among the various users of the Mt Rainier backcountry describing the problem and the solutions.  It is likely that the protest letters that you have already sent off can be used as a blueprint for a petition.  This will require some effort and face-to-face encounters with interested parties and the park users.  But a petition with 100’s or 1000’s of signatures will definitely have an impact.  On weekends, volunteers could be stationed at the Paradise, Van Trump, and Narada trailheads to inform users of the problem and to ask them to sign the petition.  If you don’t want to spend a day at a trailhead, ask for volunteers to work in shifts.  Ask the local business on the routes to Paradise if you can display your petition in their business and ask patrons to sign.  Notify ski and snowshoe clubs about the problem and ask them to circulate the petition among their members at their next meetings.  Post your petition in local sporting equipment stores.  Attend the meetings of local outdoor clubs to present your petition.  These are just a few suggestions of how to reach a larger audience and hopefully get some attention from the NPS.  Good luck.  I appreciate your frustration with the late openings and road closures and hope that you can make some changes.

was advised today that full week schedule resumes the 27th of this month (but didn't confirm it against their website, etc.) - this, by a concessionaire who routinely works there Tuesdays and Wednesdays

Monday's Twitter confirms David's report that this is the last week of Tuesday-Wednesday closures of Paradise:
 
With daylight until almost 8PM now, it would seem the park will either need double-shifts for LEOs or there will be lots more noon openings. 

Since there is a hiring freeze and budget cuts, how is the park now able to re-open Tuesdays & Wednesdays?  What assets do they now have that they didn't have at the start of winter?  They previously said the newly hired rotary operator would not change their plans.  Looks to me like the original closure was completely arbitrary and had little or no relation to the justifications floated at the time.

I agree with Andy that this was a trial balloon to gauge public reaction and that there will be further access restrictions in the future.

The winter weekday closure policy may have ended, but MRNP management remains dishonest and dysfunctional.  Locking the public out of Sunrise and the Westside road is disgraceful.

Just learned that the MRNP maintenance chief is leaving to become chief of maintenance for ONP.

I drive into Tacoma/Puyallup from Ashford 2 to 3 times a week. Eighty percent of the time I see a law enforcement vehicle driving to or away from the Park well past Clear Lake on Meridian or down below Muck Creek hill on Mountain Highway. This is 365 days a year. Can this be explained?

Drive to White Pass to ski any day of the week and you will see NPS LEOs commuting on US12 (Packwood to Ashford vis Morton & Elbe).

It's curious how this old thread normally adds just a few views per week, but occasionally receives dozens, or even over a hundred, in a few weekday hours.   Is there an access advocacy group forming that I didn't hear about?  Could it be that not all NPS computers have tracking software?  Or that the feds are online-conferencing to plot future closure strategy and update their enemies list?

Either way, as a public service, here's a consolidated list of overlapping and sometimes interconnected TAY threads on the subject of winter access in our local National Parks, arranged mostly in order of decreasing total views and with the major themes added:

Heavy-handed law enforcement 
February 2015
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=33734.0

Paradise Road closed w/o prior notice Mon 11.25 
Closed seven days in a row.  Poor Communication. Inconsistent Avalanche Safety.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=29757.0

New Record for Mt. Rainier?
Closed 9 consecutive days.  Tram idea.  Civil disobedience.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=27598.0

MRNP: Bold as brass, up your ...
Muir Toilets.  Visitation.  Budgets & plowing costs.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=26927.0

Public meeting on Winter Operations, Mt. Rainier
Accounts & reaction from post-closure meetiings.  NPS PR films. Tweet inconsistencies.  Sloughing excuse.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=26359.0

New Mt. Rainier Policy
Documents climbing concession special access on closed days.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=28005.0

Mt. Rainier, Longmire-Paradise Road opening matrix
Criticism of management's Paradise winter opening decision tree.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=24578.0

April 3, 2011, MRNP Road Closed - Eagle Peak Trail
Ski alternatives when Paradise closed.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=20475.0

MRNP: update on plow operators
Mostly about safety and free map handouts.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=27438.0

Caveat emptor!!!! Paradise, Mt. Rainier
Minimum snow depth(s) for skiing.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=25863.0

Mt. Rainier regulations
Chain requirement.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=26701.0

Business response to MRNP closures & sequester 
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=27904.0

Hiking/Biking Sunrise Road
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=25167.0

Other TAY National Park Access Threads:

Waterhole Cabin- destroyed by ONP
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=25700.0

More ONP BS / Occupy Hurricane
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=24136.0

Mid week Hurricane Ridge closure next winter!
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=23765.0

Expansion of North Cascades National Park
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=16559.0

Edit to add 11-25 thread

Mr Vogtski: did you see in the news paper that Mt. Rainier increased its number of employees this fiscal year by 33.3%?

...did you see in the news paper that Mt. Rainier increased its number of employees this fiscal year by 33.3%?

Whoa!  Wasn't the park claiming a high number of vacant positions last winter?  I wonder if their website's claim of 125 employees includes this increase, or if there are actually 40 new positions...gotta link?    ???

Found Andy's reference near the bottom:
www.thenewstribune.com/2013/08/18/273682...-the-job-market.html

According to this survey, permanent jobs at MRNP increased from 119 to 159 from 2012 to 2013!

Anyone know what the new jobs are?

I suppose someone should try asking them, but it seems like their various PR people are not all reading from the same script.  Remember, "critical vacancies" & "skeleton crews" & "hiring freeze" were some of the weaselly excuses given for last winter's weekday closures. 

Some database wizard could probably extract MRNP info and compare 2012 with 2013, but the most recent data I could find are from 2011:  php.app.com/fed_employees11/search.php

Given the many tens of millions of dollars spent on recent & current project work at this park, there are probably also dozens of "term" employees not counted as permanents: 

"The tendency in a bureaucracy is for the upper ranks to be built up over time, and periodically they need to be cleaned out. In a given amount of money, increase the percentage defined as an operating budget, and reduce the amount doled out as project funds. Projects are commonly overestimated, then used to pay for basic operations. In addition to being short sighted and unethical, there are substantial unacknowledged costs associated with this. A huge amount of staff time is spent chasing and administering projects that are really just operations under a different name. The amount of clerk positions in NPS maintenance has leaped in recent years, usually at the expense of people doing the actual work. Also, project funds can't be used to hire permanent employees, so there are a lot of temporary and term people out there who are doing the jobs of permanents. Nobody who hasn't worked in government would believe how much pointless administrative effort on the part of supervisors and HR staff goes into just keeping those people around year after year." (From Reply #135 earlier in this thread).

If you are concerned about our National Parks, don't miss this story and the comments:
www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2013/10/se...nal-park-system24163

MRNP has announced weekday access changes for the coming winter:
www.thenewstribune.com/2013/11/07/287837...ational-park-to.html

In a nutshell, Paradise will be closed Tu-W until Dec. 21st, at which time 9-5 seven-day access theoretically begins for the remainder of the winter.  New this winter is a fixed 5 pm daily gate closure at Longmire, even in late winter when the days are longer.

Awesome!

I wonder what their plan is for dealing with stragglers. If the downhill gate closes at 5:00PM , the lot at Paradise will need to be cleared out by 4:30PM. I've arrived back at the lot past sunset plenty of times in the past.

I wonder what their plan is for dealing with stragglers. If the downhill gate closes at 5:00PM , the lot at Paradise will need to be cleared out by 4:30PM. I've arrived back at the lot past sunset plenty of times in the past.

Obviously this new plan is not about outdoor sports...

Obviously this new plan is not about outdoor sports...

Randy King, Park Supt., was quoted in the Tacoma News Tribune as saying this new schedule is a response to request by local businesses (no references to the public or outdoor recreationists).

I'm worried about the single shift comment as it relates to the roads more than the rangers. They need to keep plows on duty/on call the whole time people are up there in case it snows during the day, especially on snowy days. If superintendent King tries to keep the plowing to a single shift that means plow operators will not start plowing until 9:00am.

If superintendent King tries to keep the plowing to a single shift that means plow operators will not start plowing until 9:00am.

I was wondering the same thing.... if plow operators don't start till 9am, and drivers have to be back at Paradise by 5pm, thats what...maybe 4-5 hours of time to actually recreate at Paradise?   fine for sledders and tourists...pretty short to get in a decent ski tour. 
I would've rather seen the park service skip road maintenance on two weekdays and have 2 shifts of plow operations on Sat/Sun so the road could be open by 7-8am and be open to downhill traffic after dark. 
I wonder if local businesses will actually see an uptick in revenue with the 7-days a week access or if the shortened hours will keep skiers away?   I doubt I'll be doing many trips to Rainier for winter touring if they start threatening to ticket drivers who don't make it back to Longmire by 5. 

...
I would've rather seen the park service skip road maintenance on two weekdays and have 2 shifts of plow operations on Sat/Sun so the road could be open by 7-8am and be open to downhill traffic after dark. 
I wonder if local businesses will actually see an uptick in revenue with the 7-days a week access or if the shortened hours will keep skiers away?   I doubt I'll be doing many trips to Rainier for winter touring if they start threatening to ticket drivers who don't make it back to Longmire by 5. 

The problem with 2 scheduled days of closure is that if it snows the road has to be plowed anyway; if it doesn't snow, the road is closed anyway. Then add closures due to bad weather, avalanche danger, and equipment problems that don't coincide with scheduled closures and you have, like last winter more like 4+ days of closure; openings become unpredictable; people stay away more and more; gate receipts drop, demand for openings drop; but the roads still have to be plowed and LEOs still have to be on duty because the road from the entrance to Longmire is kept open excepting very unusual circumstances. I just don't see closures and limited hours saving much money but rather decreasing visitor days (= citizen satisfaction with park opts). The park maintained one of its largest staffing during the closures last winter; the only thing that could have been saved is some mileage on vehicles.

Winter is a slow time for gateway communities with little profit making, but regular visitation does help pay for overhead costs, helps keep service employees employed (and in the community--otherwise they have to move and there is a labor shortage), and the more visitation & fun the more people come thru; the businesses realize this but it matters not to them whether their customers are people looking for 2-4 hours of snowshoeing, skiing, snow play, sightseeing, or all day bc endeavors.

The problem with 2 scheduled days of closure is that if it snows the road has to be plowed anyway ... add closures due to bad weather ... and you have, like last winter more like 4+ days of closure; ...

We're in the 1st week of 2 days (Tues, Wed) of scheduled closure and the Park was open Sunday and Monday and closed for 4 the next 5 days; of course, the forecast for tomorrow isn't great either.

Perhaps a winter management plan should include managing for winter...

... and not waiting for the sun to come out.

And as predicted looks like they didn't start plowing until 9am and took them three hours to do it.  Pretty useless opening today; I'd count it as another closure.  It's like paying and going to see a movie in the theater, but the theater is only open for 20 minutes  > .  Easy to criticize the critiquer of being too critical and not understanding the complexities, but The Park should be embarassed at how poorly they manage this situation and what poor public service they provide in this aspect of their "mission".

I don't even know where to begin with all this?!?!?!?!  I live 2+ hours from Paradise.  Despite the distance, Paradise is my number one go to destination throughout the winter.  Most people view my travel to Paradise as insane even on those days when the gate is open at 8AM and I can return past dark.  The new policy basically closes the park for me. 

I have voiced my concerns in writing over the years.  Unfortunately, the times and distance made it impossible for me to attend last years meetings.  I feel there is zero way to affect change in this situation.  It appears business owners and guide services have more chance to affect change; however, their interests can run counter to mine as the new policy proves.  Looks like the Bucksnort will be serving a few less Buck Burgers and few less pints of Rolling Rock.  In the end, the Park is going to do what it wants to do regardless of the wishes of the very users it is suppose to serve.  Looks like I will become even more intimate with Mt Hood this year.  If only Helens held some tree skiing.

I count about 15 cars in the lot at 5pm. So are they leaving the down hill gate open longer than the stated 5pm? Would like to hear what peoples experiences are coming down after 5. Thanks.

Well it's not Tuesday, not Wednesday, it didn't snow last night, and the parking lot is bare & dry. The road won't be open today. W.T.F.??????????

And it's 50 degrees….Their Twitter account just added "The gate to Paradise at Longmire will not open today due to a shortage in staffing required to ensure public safety"
This is complete incompetent bullshit…(not sure if I am allowed to use that word)