Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds

They only posted that after I called them out on Twitter for an explanation and CC'd Secretary Jewell. I don't like the explanation but I prefer it to the veiled secrecy of their original tweet.

So they posted that at 947 ? was there a post up before that ? My point ,with clear weather and supposed to be open how many were on the road already. For a whole lot of us it takes at least a couple hrs driving to get there. Enough! Everybody gets it except the Mismanagement.

i'm at a near loss for words.. how is it possible that they can get away with this?

It is America: Love it, or leave it.

@Robie- yes, there was an earlier tweet at about 9:25am which it appears they have since deleted. I know this because I retweeted the original with added commentary. Here's a link to my retweet: Invalid consumer key/secret in configuration

Anyone notice that the webcam showing the Paradise parking lot now isn't working? Classic.

@Robie- yes, there was an earlier tweet at about 9:25am which it appears they have since deleted. I know this because I retweeted the original with added commentary. Here's a link to my retweet: Invalid consumer key/secret in configuration

Anyone notice that the webcam showing the Paradise parking lot now isn't working? Classic.

Camera shot of empty parking lot labeled 11/25 and 11:27 works for me.

Ok, I'm now seeing it. At the time I replied here, the image was garbled below Mazama Ridge despite multiple refresh attempts. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but the timing was humorous.

It is America: Love it, or leave it.

you can do better than that, Andy..      I was just looking for the "unfriend" button.

btw, i sent them a tweet in reply, as well.  am expecting a black crown vic to pull up at any moment.

you can do better than that, Andy..      I was just looking for the "unfriend" button.

btw, i sent them a tweet in reply, as well.  am expecting a black crown vic to pull up at any moment.

I was just quoting the kind of response I get from our Congressional delegation and even people here on this board, when as a progressive American (and multi-generation veteran with 33 years of federal service) when I complain about our dastardly foreign policies, our domestic priorities, and the rapidly degenerating performance of our federal agencies.

I count about 15 cars in the lot at 5pm.  So are they leaving the down hill gate open longer than the stated 5pm?  Would like to hear what peoples experiences are coming down after 5.  Thanks.

Not sure what the current policy is, but it used to be that late vehicles simply had the daily gate combo left on the windshield.  The passive-aggressive language of the recent press release makes it sound as though they're keeping count at the very least, and threatening further access restrictions if there's too much sunset watching...   

For those contemplating protest or non-compliance, here's an example of the dark side of the NPS: 

Crazy idea- how about one of those White House petitions for a GAO audit of the Park? I think you need 25k signatures to trigger a response but that could be doable if it went viral in the outdoor community.

I just received a reply to a message I wrote to Superintendent King regarding gate openings and the NPS Twitter feed. He said that they are in agreement that the situation regarding gate opening information needs improvement, and that they are working on the situation.

From Superintendent King:
"In any event, we recognize the need and want to do what you ask. We are not quite there yet. In the next week or two, we should be able to post updates most days by 7:30 am."

Not quite my ideal situation, but this would be an excellent improvement to the current situation.

Anything earlier than a 9AM tweet is an improvement, but 7:30AM is still at least an hour too late for a good chunk of people to make a decision. I just don't get why this is so hard?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Apparently they are lazy and don't care anyway..

3 inches of new at the Nisqually Entrance and 8 inches at Paradise, the 1st twitter at 9 a.m.  said the road is being assessed (as the plows reached Paradise), the 2nd at 9:30 a.m. that the road won't open today due to heavy snow (it would be considered heavy if your baseline was snow conditions in the Okefenokee Swamp where, perhaps these yokels were transferred from).  The announcement of not opening could just as easily been made Friday, Saturday, or Sunday--but maybe no one was on the job. Please note this is not the fault or responsibility of the plow crews; they are capable and have capable equipment. This is evidently MRNP management policy. So, closed for 3 continuous days (again)?

Ok I have had it. Enough is enough. I have lived up here for 35 years and will not keep my mouth shut any longer.

Randy King has handed over road opening decisions to law enforcement. The word in Ashford is that the law enforcement is not getting along with the road crew. The decisions lately of road opening and timing is made by the few LE and those few are not listening to the capable and veteran-knowledgable road crew. By keeping the road closed the LE has been blatantly abusing it's new-found power and has been heard stating "we all get paid regardless if it is open or not….. so…."

They are not even following the laid out matrix of last year…which is bullshit anyway…and today is a perfect example of the abuse….

Storm WARNING?! maybe later this afternoon says NOAA…..HIGH AVALANCHE??…only above and near treeline…

Enough! We are not idiots...

Awesome! Doing a film maybe?

&lt;blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href="twitter.com/MountRainierNPS">@MountRainierNPS</a>; <a href="/twitter.com/search?q=%23film&src=hash">#film</a>; <a href="/twitter.com/search?q=%23documentary&...documentary</a>; Seattle gets more snow than Mount Rainier National Park but is able to keep roads open...</p>— RainierIndFilmfest (@Rainierfilm) <a href="/Invalid consumer key/secret in configuration 20, 2013</a></blockquote>
&lt;script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"&gt;&lt;/script&gt;

Ok I have had it. Enough is enough ... Randy King has handed over road opening decisions to law enforcement. The word in Ashford is that the law enforcement is not getting along with the road crew. ... They are not even following the laid out matrix of last year…which is bullshit anyway…and today is a perfect example of the abuse…. Enough! We are not idiots...

I think all TAYers know I have my problems with the park access policy.  However, I do not disagree with today's closure for the following set of reasons:  

(1) According to NWAC  avy danger is High ("very dangerous") at and above treeline; according to the rec forecast very windy with 9-15 inches of snow (they apparently use WSDOT tho).  This makes for very sketchy conditions abover Ricksecker Point.

(2) I have been told by sources in the park that I trust that they are low on funding and worried about even keeping campgrounds open in the Spring.  I've been warned to expect more frequent closures this winter.  I suggested to the Park that if they are that short on funds and if having to plow overtime to keep the road open for a few skiers would cause closures on good days that they use the following rule:  Close the road to Paradise when avy danger is high to extreme, winds are high, and there is a winter storm warning (12 inches of snow or more ) in effect; and give as early a notice as possible.  This closure and notification is in accord with my suggestion.

(3) I would rather have the road closed on potentially dangerous days and open on better days--and ideally open til dark on good days (and yes, I have skied at Paradise during Extreme avy danger, during heavy snows, with high winds and had fun and was more or less safe).

(4)  I encourage TAYers and other bc users to support the park in conserving scarce resources by closing according to the criteria above as long as they open on iffy days and open full days on sunny days.

Now, I know many don't believe they are scarce on funds.  I do not have hard evidence of that.  I and many others may differ with the priorities given funding within the park--some of that has to be due to the appropriation process but some must be within the purview of park managemen and NPS management.  I and many others may believe that if we are to kow-tow to the red state rednecks with respect to reducing the federal (and NPS budget) then the closures should be on things like the battlefield parks and little historic momuments that cost so much to serve so few. Put the funds in the parks that the NPS was created for (NC, Olympic, MRNP, Redwoods, Yosemite, Sequoia, Arches, Zion, Grand Canyon, Glacier, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Rocky Mountain, Shenandoah, Great Smoky, etc.  There's a bunch of them and some low cost ones like Escalante.

Ok I have had it. Enough is enough. I have lived up here for 35 years and will not keep my mouth shut any longer.

Randy King has handed over road opening decisions to law enforcement. The word in Ashford is that the law enforcement is not getting along with the road crew. The decisions lately of road opening and timing is made by the few LE and those few are not listening to the capable and veteran-knowledgable road crew. By keeping the road closed the LE has been blatantly abusing it's new-found power and has been heard stating "we all get paid regardless if it is open or not….. so…."

Back in the 70's in my first week as a rookie, I was oriented thusly by a veteran NPS seasonal:  "The rangers hate the maintenance guys because they make more money, and maintenance hates the rangers 'cause they're dinks."  That was certainly a considerable exaggeration, but with a core of truth.  For maintenance workers, the park was part of their home; rangers were usually transient and more focused on their careers.  Sounds like not much has changed...except I've heard a new phrase around Ashford recently:  "Bluebird Rangers"

I was not surprised by today's closure; at least the Twitter times were improved.  I was annoyed they would use avalanche hazard as justification without the modifier 'future'.  Maybe they never read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"?

Given the forecast for heavy snow and warming, it seems safe to assume Paradise will remain closed this weekend.  Should they open, it will be more evidence that this supposed safety policy is arbitrarily applied.

As for funding being the root cause, I just don't buy it.  160 year-round employees is too many for a part-time park. They had enough money to upgrade to HD webcams, and apparently a way to switch them off when they need to...  :

They can afford dozens of scientific specialists.  I'll believe public access has once again become a priority when they add a professional avalanche forecaster at the snowiest park in the country.

This caveman finally succeeded in putting the MRNP portion of the 2012 Federal Employee database into Excel.  The 2013 edition will be free in a few weeks; it should be interesting to compare.  I'm still learning the sort, search, graph functions, but PM me with email for the raw spreadsheet if anyone wants to see it.

@vogtski,

I agree with you re: Avy conditions--- The official forecast is for "High" near or above treeline. NEAR TREELINE definition:
Near Treeline is the middle of the three elevation bands used in NWAC forecasts. It is a transition zone between dense forests and treeless alpine areas. It is the narrowest of the three elevation bands, extending only a few hundred feet above and below the treeline. It varies locally, and is not a constant elevation or width.

It is CONSIDERABLE below treeline

In addition the, snowpack right now is nil for any large-scale vehicle damaging avy event to take place. I was there yesterday- when they had to open the road -late - because the excuse of the sun being too bright would'nt go over with Randy- and the snow that is laying on the ground below Paradise is pathetic.

Kinda off topic:
I have a camper van. Can I sleep in it in the overnight lot?

Apparently: no sleeping in vehicles at Paradise is permitted; campers must camp 300 feet from any road; you may not camp where there is less thand 5 feet of snow on the ground.

So with the Congress passing a budget for the next two years what will MRNP have for future excuses?

www.flatheadnewsgroup.com/hungryhorsenew...7c-0019bb2963f4.html

November road closure statistics:

Nov 3rd: open 10a-3p
Nov 4th: open 11a-5p
Nov 7th: open 9a-2p
Nov 8th: open 9a-4p

Closed: Nov 12, 13,15, 16, 19, 20, 25, 26, 27

Open all other days-

So with the Congress passing a budget for the next two years what will MRNP have for future excuses?

AFAIK, the only appropriation passed since the passage of the Ryan-Murray budget (which does not appropriate money) has been the defense budget--on its way to the prez.

Haven't heard anything about Interior and Related Agencies, but and email I got from Reichert's office referenced the budget control act (i.e., forget about it).

Next thing up will probably be whether to extend unemployment benefits or not and then Agriculture (ag subsidies and food stamps) because milk is set to jump to $40/gallon or something.

We also face the debt ceiling next month and Republicans said they are looking for a hostage.

From Mr. Obey, NPCA, on the Ryan-Murray budget: "...our parks likely will continue to lack the ability to restore all the rangers they lost to the sequester and other cuts, and closed signs are likely to remain at park facilities—part and parcel of a slow motion shutdown for our national parks that cannot be sustained without irreparable damage," he said. "The imposed sequester cuts left 2,000 fewer rangers to protect and manage park resources, abruptly impacting the visitor experience by closing campgrounds, visitor centers and roads.

What about this statement in the article--

"A budget deal brokered by Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wisconsin, and Sen. Patty Murray, D-Washington, will roll back sequestration cuts to the Park Service budget.
“We’re really happy that most sequester cuts have ended for the fiscal year,” said John Garder, the National Parks Conservation Association’s budget and appropriations legislative representative"

What about this statement in the article--

"A budget deal brokered by Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wisconsin, and Sen. Patty Murray, D-Washington, will roll back sequestration cuts to the Park Service budget.
“We’re really happy that most sequester cuts have ended for the fiscal year,” said John Garder, the National Parks Conservation Association’s budget and appropriations legislative representative"

I believe the statement refers to the sequester cuts for FY14 (Oct 2013-Sept 2014); it does not address any actual appropriation or any other budget cuts (MRNP got 5% for 2013 w/o sequestration and, I think, were anticipating another 5% for FY 14, not counting sequestration--but I could be wrong, I'm not a DOI budget/appropriation analyst).

What I do know, I think, their has been no appropriation bill for the park yet beyond the continuing resolution that will be moot.

To repeat, tho:  the Murray-Ryan budget does not appropriate (provide) any money; it simple sets a cap on appropriations.  Actual authorization for the park to spend money and how much comes thru either a continuing resolution or an appropriation bill.

Obey again:"The budget deal restores most of sequester cuts, but does not guarantee that the congressional appropriations committees will provide the resources the parks need to put needed rangers back in our parks and begin to address the maintenance backlog."

@vogtski,

I agree with you re: Avy conditions--- The official forecast is for "High" near or above treeline. NEAR TREELINE definition:
Near Treeline is the middle of the three elevation bands used in NWAC forecasts. It is a transition zone between dense forests and treeless alpine areas. It is the narrowest of the three elevation bands, extending only a few hundred feet above and below the treeline. It varies locally, and is not a constant elevation or width.

It is CONSIDERABLE below treeline

In addition the, snowpack right now is nil for any large-scale vehicle damaging avy event to take place. I was there yesterday- when they had to open the road -late - because the excuse of the sun being too bright would'nt go over with Randy- and the snow that is laying on the ground below Paradise is pathetic.

Note the semi-stealth opening Sunday.  No tweet, but cars on cam in the lot since mid-morning...

Supposed "high avalanche conditions" was the excuse offered for not opening Friday with 2-3" new and below freezing temperatures.  Transparently BS, since they opened today with a foot of new being rained on.   ??? 

I'm going to bet the closure decision is made much sooner than we realize and based on a forecast of the avy danger. It seems like all the news I heard was for cold snow followed by warming rain. I'd have predicted a high danger, too.

I'm going to bet the closure decision is made much sooner than we realize and based on a forecast of the avy danger. It seems like all the news I heard was for cold snow followed by warming rain. I'd have predicted a high danger, too.

The park has a Decision Matrix for opening the road from Longmire to Paradise:  (1) winter storm warnings or watches?, (2) sufficient staff for conditions?,  (3) avy danger high or extreme?, and (4) any other (high winds, low viz, signs of avy activity)?  Quite logical.  But not at always adhered to.  Note that all of 1-4 can be predicted and, if desired, decisions made and publicized before 5 p.m. (NOAA/NWAC/Rec forecast and NWAC avy forecast) the preceding day with the exceptions of signs of avy activity noticed by plow crews or LEOs, equipment breakdowns, staff calling in sick or oversleeping or taking a "wellness" day, or something like a rockslide/avy/landslide/debris flow overnight.  Of course, the matrix has been publicized and the public can check the weather and avy links.

Last winter and this fall the decision matrix was applied only 5 days/week or at all? given arbitrary Tues-Wed closures.  I was told personally by the Park Supt. last winter that the closures were not due to budgetary problems; they had made a management decision not to fully staff the plow crew (2), no reason given.  This year, the park is claiming budget problems, understaffing, and "good business decisions" (ROI?  ???) to safeguard resources for summer and that we should expect more frequent closures than in the past despite the stated intention to keep the road to Paradise open 7 days/week in the winter with reduced hours (9-5).

One often hears stated desires and informal warnings that the desire is to close the road to Paradise during the week no matter what, but only public pressure keeps it open.