TAY Atmosphere

This is a great thread and a lot of good information has been posted here. 

I come to this site for the great info contained within the trip reports posted here.  It seems to be quite easy to skip over the small amount of drama to find gold. 

I have only just begun posting trip reports so I haven't had any drama directed at me, but from what I've seen so far my thick skin will repel any animosity.

That being said I believe this site is well moderated.. thank you Marcus

Just to be clear, are you referring to my mention of Marcus's congratulatory post for " slapping down some people who need to hear it" that he sent to PNWBrit, TWO WEEKS before announcing he was the new owner of TAY and NOT..... "years before he took over management of TAY "  as Lowell  has spun above. He then banned PNWbrit  for doing the thing he had congratulated him for  doing just over a year ago.  That is germain when discussing the tone/atmosphere of the site and the moderation theroff no matter how much his apologists say it isn't.

If we accept that is germain, how does it support your argument? The PM was sent as Marcus the member, the banning as Marcus the owner/moderator. Taking on a new role or responsibility always changes your perspective. I am assuming that Brit was warned before his banning that Marcus no longer approved of the tone of his comments. Should Marcus be compelled to always support behavior that he has supported in the past? Should he be caned for past collusion?

I see a lot of complaining that others are attacking you. From my perspective it is usually (not always) in response. You seem to give as least as good as you get. You object that others are not restricted and then you advocate for looser moderation. It appears as part of a pattern to frame reality in a way that vindicates you but is not necessarily accurate. An example of this is referring to Marcus' "apologists". I haven't seen anyone apologizing for Marcus, on the contrary, I see only congratulations and gratitude.

To be fair, I have recently looked back through some past posts looking for examples of annoying behavior expecting to find many from you. I found myself mostly appreciating your wit and humor (how terrible for me). If we could all stick to logically reasoned arguments (however forceful), I think the tone would improve on its own.

Scotsman, hold me accountable for what I say and have said, but not out of context.
Since you asked. I am referring to you calling out my character based on a post I made concerning fish “gut” (your term, not mine). Well, since it was so infamous, how come you didn’t seem to notice at all in 2006 www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...dex.php?topic=3871.0, or object to it very much in 2009 www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=13450.0? Also, taken in context (context which you ignored) it is not so irrational or radical. Perhaps that is why you did not object to my words at the time in 2009 with anything stronger than a “Tssk-tsk-tsk” (that is a quote). Later on in that same thread, you contemplate an armed conflict between skiers and snowmobilers on the Easton (I guess that was a “joke”). Since we are ratting up the past, my statement is not too far off your Jan 14 2009 post suggesting “Non violent civil disobedience”. As to my 2006 post, you did not seem to object, one could reasonable assume you agree by your statement later in that thread of “However, if it is legal then the snowmobilers have a right to be there without being hassled aslong (sic) as they don't endanger or hassle me.” I interpret that statement as if they hassle you, then they do not have the right to be there, which was sort of the topic of the thread.
To clear up my past statements concerning conflict between sledders and skiers, yes, they were statements I should not have made in a public forum, they were dumb, and I deserved the “tsk-tsk”. I am sorry if others were offended. I have done a bit of sledding and I support sledding in areas where it is permitted by law and conducted in a safe manner. I do not support sledding in areas where it is not permitted. In skier/sledder conflict I generally support the concept of safety of the skier, as I generally support bikers in bike vs. car conflict, pedestrians in pedestrian vs. car conflicts, nerd in nerd vs. bully, etc. I still should not have made a statement of non-violent civil disobedience and potential destruction of property in the case of conflict between skiers and sledders and for that I am sorry. I will continue to use sleds as road approach vehicles every chance I get. I have been and will continue to put time, money and effort into avy safety programs that benefit sledders as well as other members of the winter travel community.
Just to set the record straight, it was not my post where you where you brought this up, but another post that you created to critique and criticize FOAC with a shortage of fact (which, by the end of the thread you finally found the facts).
As to the note of sarcasm (did I mis-perceive your tone?) as to my wish to prevent avalanche deaths, yes, that is something I have been putting 2-5 hours a week into for the last 9 months and considerable time before that in addition to considerable sums of money. I stand behind my work, putting deeds and $$ where my mouth is. I would like to invite you work with me, but suspect you will let someone else do the heavy lifting, as that is your M.O. most of the time.

This whole thread blows me away. This site is about skiing. Sharing joys and information. There is a loud minority (granted, a very active experienced core minority that I greatly respect) that want to change things. But the majority of users don't come here to piss and shout. The TR's are great. Most of the random tracks are great. The technical information and sense of community is an amazing resource.
The moderator can do what he wants and if it's against the majority's wishes the forum will lose a lot of users. From what I can gather from posts in this thread, users are going away because of the negative tone of other users not because of the moderator's unwillingness to share the duties. Marcus do what you want to keep this a positive place focused on the joys of skiing.

Griff's got it: "Have fun. Relax. It's all about the skiing kids, not about opinions. Ski as much as you can, and be a good soul. Peace."

another mostly lurker here with my 2 pennies.  The above post pretty much reflects my sentiments.  For me, the main point of this is information - conditions, novel tours, gear, BC-relevant news.  I like the "NPR-like" quality and I think that comes from the fact that this is the focal point of a community.  As I understand it, TAY is about BC skiing in the PNW, and that is fine with me.  (as an aside, I do enjoy TRs from outside our area and maybe dividing TRs by region like cascadeclimbers would be helpful).  The great thing about the internet is that you are free to go anywhere that matches your interest.
To Marcus I would say you are doing a good job, this is yours - own it.  I believe you have an interest in maintaining the sensibility of the site that you inherited, as you said when you took on the job, and I was relieved by that.  We have something unique here and I would hate to lose it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Singapore
At some cost.

Yup at some cost.  Everything comes at a cost.  I am not advocating a dictatorship for countries just making a point. 

To that point; how many years has TAY been up and running?  Would you say that the vast majority of people who participate (even just lurking) seem pretty happy with what TAY is?  Even you said it mostly gets it right and yet you are the one here who seems to uniquely be calling for a change in ownership.  I think that there have been some logical suggestions made in this thread to make some things about the site more attractive, but they amount to tweaks.  You seem to need wholesale changes.  I have an engineer colleague who has a saying for people who just never seem to be able to finish a job, or worse yet fail or break something because they just need to make it a little better.  "The enemy of good is better"  Not saying that we do not all want to strive for excellence, but for those who fail to recognize that for a certain purpose "good" is ""better" things can get broke.  "Lets just tighten that bolt a little more..."  The Tim Allen method of doing things, i.e. if a 5hp lawn mower is good, then a 25 horse turbo charged hand mower should be 5 times better.

I am not saying you are wrong.  What you are suggesting is the typical frustrations of an entrepreneur.  You are representing an outlier position that can often lead to bigger and better things.  Sometimes companies create other competing lines to test the waters and see if they need to replace the old.  Maybe Marcus can set up a new TAY, the OPEN TAY to test the waters (just kidding)?  However, maybe you should lead an initiative to make your own site.  It might succeed.

Regarding TAY and rule by committee, you seem to want to institute a democratic system of management.  I wonder if a community-wide vote were taken as to whether the TAY community would support such a change?

Unlike a true dictatorship, we all have choices and can come or go as we wish.  I certainly hope that no one who participates on TAY feels that they actually live here.  If TAY should close up shop I think everyone would find productive outlets on their own. 

On the topic of cronies.  I would like to think that all the participants here are cronies as rabid fans of wilderness skiing.  Conversely, we would likely not agree very well on politics, cars, movies, etc.  That's what other sites are for.

Gosh, I am writing way too much on this so I will leave this as my last post on this and trust that my points are understood, if not agreed upon.

Alan

Just to put in a vote, I think that Marcus' loosening of the moderation has been a positive.
...
I'm saddened to see so many asking for more aggressive moderation, particularly from lurkers, but that does seem to be what's being called for. I hope Marcus and others are ready for the even larger amount of effort that entails, at least at first.
...
I know a lot people in this thread believe that ramping up the moderation will create a more welcoming climate and bring in more users, or perhaps reactivate former posters. I happen to agree with gravitymk when he says that it will drive perhaps just as many away. It's convenient to believe that those driven away are all foul-mouthed jerks you don't want around anyway and can go to TGR or TTips, but I suspect that it's not that simple.

My opinion was leaning this way until I read MarkHaf's post. Having been a moderator here, he has a POV that most of us are missing. I may be reading something into his post that was not there, but it seems that he's suggesting that there was more swift application of standards back in the "Charles Era," and that this on net made it easier to be a moderator. A key passage from his post:

I've been fascinated watching Marcus' style of moderation, which clearly has certain advantages and disadvantages over other styles we've seen here (including my own), but in the balance I prefer the results achievable through more aggressive moderation--that is, quick and decisive application of consequences following posts which do not follow stated standards.   I believe that the absence of this kind of moderation will at best make the site more and more effort to run (and correspondingly less and less rewarding), while driving off a great many members whose participation I value greatly.  As I've stated elsewhere, I believe that the driving-off process is already well under way here, and others posting in this thread have confirmed my belief.  I hope the process can be stopped.

Now of course there are always confounding factors - maybe things would have gotten even harder under the "old regime" due to some other change having more to to with the membership, not the moderators. But, for the moment, I'm buying Mark's take. His post begs an interesting question - have we seen a significant increase or decrease in actively participating members since Marcus took over? It seems to me that most if not all of the folks on this thread joined the site in the Charles era. So I'm assuming we'd not lose any of them if moderation practices reverted to the "state the rules clearly and enforce them swiftly" approach Mark describes (is this more "active" or less "active" moderation if it means less work for the moderators??). There are a few assumptions baked in here that could be fairly questioned, but we seem to have evidence to suggest that such an approach won't drive too many people away (else they'd have left some time ago). This leads me to buy the "set the TOU the site owners want, and moderate according the TOU" notion.

Scotsman - I'm missing way too much context to make much of your "smoking gun" tale. I don't know what the post that Marcus congratulated said and what it was replying to. I don't know how many times Marcus warned PNWBrit, nor what his "final transgression" was (if memory serves, it was yanked before I saw it). So I don't know whether fair and clear warnings were simply ignored; if they were issued and ignored and if the final transgression was in a similar ven or worse than what produced warnings, then hanging on to that one PM as some sort of "standard setter" would seem to me to miss the bigger picture. At minimum, though it does tell me that Marcus is a human. What a relief.

Given the recurring theme of "civility" in this thread, it seems relevant to link to a recent NY Times news story on the creation of a "Civility Institute" in Tuscon , which has Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush (pops) caring enough to sign on as honorary chairmen. From one of the founders of the institute:

One of the first steps, he said, would be to attempt defining “best practices and corrosive practices.”

“How do we nurture robustness on one hand and not in any way chill speech, and keep it in bounds that are not destructive to democracy?” he said. “Will it change the nature of dialogue? That will be a tall order.”

So if its any consolation, we're not the only folks grappling with these sorts of questions.

Of course, any such discussion, as we've seen here, will bring a certain degree of fair critique along with ridicule :

If we promote civility, might we not achieve a political nirvana where it is possible to be robust, vehement and caustic while at the same time remaining punctiliously civil and decorous?

Sure, but that would bring to mind another Ambrose Bierce quotation: “Politeness, n. The most acceptable hypocrisy.”

Well, I may not be terribly deep philosophically, and I'm quite sure that at some level my logic is flawed and my actions hypocritical, but for my part I would just like to see TAY remain/return to an environment that feels welcoming to past members who have shied away recently as well as to lurkers who have hesitated to enter the fray, while also being a place where even those folks can feel comfortable having a robust debate that focuses on what really matters, and not on scoring personal "gotchas." At some level this discussion seems to boil down to "who should change - the people who aren't liking the personal attacks, or the people conducting them?" In a community this small and local, it seems to me that the latter is not unreasonable to hope for. I have, of course, been called overly optimistic and naive in the past...

I'm kind of new here relative to a lot of posters. Please help me understand. Is TAY a community or a clique? It is getting kind of blurred in my mind. Let me help with definitions (mine).
A community defines a group of people with a common interest but accepting of fringe ideas as long as the end goal is entertained.  In this case , human powered winter adventure in the PNW.  Some tele, some ride lifts, some skin but all embrace the mountains in snow as opposed to a winter spent waiting for summer.  A clique would expect all to embrace a very narrow mantra and would love to have a Tee shirt like this.

It's about skiing man, not interwebz fights cuz some pussy got his feelings hurt. You gotta embrace it.. its about winning..having tigers blood in your veins.... embracing the skiing and the posting and loving it hard and violently with a violent love and hatred.
It's about winning...... living like a biotchin rockstar skier.... crusing pow, the skintrack, the tele, the AT, the nice the bad the ugly the beautiful and saying ...yes I'm winning cuz I'm doing it with my brain switched on and the electrons are flowing and you don't care man what the guy with the 5 kids and bean bag chairs is posting about ....cuz I'z got my fat skis, gas money and a reefer in the pocket and some PJ sandwiches and it snowing...... snowing like tigers blood.

O please please please O great benevolent dictator purchase IGNORE software if such wonders exist. I've got a few posters that add no value for me.

Marcus - thanks for asking. I thought Charles started a great community and you've been keeping the spirit. I myself was asked to tone my rhetoric down in years past and once I read my note from someone Else's eyes, I agreed that I came off like an arrogant jerk (this might very well be true, but not the point here). The system works.

Good luck to you.

Hi Marcus-

I have also noticed the site has a different feel in the last couple years in regards to forum posts.  I suspect it has to do with more people using the site for daytime entertainment rather than strictly for getting and providing touring beta.  I am not opposed to the recreational posting and am not too worried about users getting their feelings hurt from 'cyber bullies', however it does seem to have diluted the usable content of the site.  Anymore, I mostly am using the site for the very nice weather links page and to pass the time lurking during lunch break.  I do think it would be a shame if the trend continued and TAY became another cascadeclimbers.

In the end, you should guide the site to whatever you want it to be.  There is a community that uses it, but it is your site and your vision rules.  I personally preferred it when the site was dryer and had less spray; it definitely was less 'lively' but IMO more useful.

edit: I also agree with the others that have suggested regional categories for TR's.

Orion

It's about winning...... living like a biotchin rockstar skier.... crusing pow, the skintrack, the tele, the AT, the nice the bad the ugly the beautiful and saying ...yes I'm winning cuz I'm doing it with my brain switched on and the electrons are flowing and you don't care man what the guy with the 5 kids and bean bag chairs is posting about ....cuz I'z got my fat skis, gas money and a reefer in the pocket and some PJ sandwiches and it snowing...... snowing like tigers blood.

Also the poet laureate of TAY, as of now, in the spirit of Ginsberg. Howl from The Gondola, as read by Scotsman!

After deciding not to get involved, the consistant reemergence of this sentiment draws me in:

O please please please O great benevolent dictator purchase IGNORE software if such wonders exist.  I've got a few posters that add no value for me.

How is it a problem for people to look past topics or posters who do not interest them?  If I believe that a topic or poster holds no interest for me, I do not resent it being on the site, I simply do not read it. 

Why advocate censorship when the slightest bit of self discipline will eliminate your problem?

I have seen TAY evolve over the few years that I have participated and not only is change inevitable as the sport and the community itself change, I believe that it is for the better; more TR's, a broader array of people and  more diversity of content.  We all understand that going forward, Marcus can do with the site as he chooses but the calls for banishment's and censorship are an affront to us all and obstacle to an inclusive community.  While it is perhaps human nature to romanticise the past, I set my view in the future and look forward to the fruition of the Marcus era.  I trust that he will preside with fairness and, as a unite-er and not a divider, will reconcile with the Brit so that peace and love may reign supreme.

SNOWING LIKE TIGERS BLOOD!!!!!!!!!!

Marcus, the TAY site and "community" are great.  The sport is growing a lot each year and I don't know how many new people I refer to TAY for advice.  We're very lucky to have this kind of regional board with such good attitudes and a great variety of posts.  I really enjoy reading about that Hummel guy's latest bagging of Bonanza, Dappen's wanderings out of Wenatchee, as well as many posts of dawn patrol at hyak, or someone's first trip to Baker.  All of the trips may provide useful insight in my own trip planning, as well as being an enjoyable waste of time.

I can't believe how many times moderation and direction of the site come up.  It's amazing.  I understand you want to keep TAY regulars happy, but you can't please everyone.  We've got a great forum right now, controlling it's evolution is impossible (or very time consuming).  I think it's being well run right now, and was in the past.  I've never had a post deleted, so I can't imagine censorship is really an issue (anyone that knows me would quickly censor me).  

To contradict myself, I'll add that this is Seattle/PNW, we're all thin-skinned and politically correct.  Remember we shouldn't accomplish anything if it will offend even 1 person.   : so you're fighting uphill

Hi snowbell - censorship is if Marcus blocks a user who isn't breaking the rules of site, an ignore button is for the user to determine who they do not want to clutter their screen. Just another tool like separating TRs for the evolution of a wonderful site.

Longtime mostly lurker here. A big thanks to Marcus and all of the other moderators (and especially Charles, if you’re listening) for making the site work. I personally prefer the kinder, gentler version of TAY, in case you are actually counting votes. I've always felt that the positive tone of the discourse on TAY was quite refreshing and I think it would be sad to see it diminished. With that said, perhaps there is some middle ground to be found here. It has seemed to me that Random Tracks has always been a bit ‘looser’ than BC Trip Reports. Perhaps this is because I ignored Random Tracks for a long time, or perhaps it’s the sometimes frivolous nature of the posts or the fact that RT threads don’t have an ‘owner’ in the same sense that a trip report does. Whatever the reason, perhaps a way forward would be to more vigorously enforce the original rules in the TR forums while relaxing them somewhat in Random Tracks. I think this in line with what some others have suggested. Perhaps you could even rename Random Tracks as ‘Scotsman All Year’ (SAY!) or something similar. Okay, I’m joking about that bit. No need to encourage him. Anyway, this would allow the part of TAY that I think most folks value the most to maintain that 'TAY feel' that most seem to appreciate, while allowing a little more room for ‘spirited discourse’ in an appropriate place. Just a thought. Okay, now: back to the spirited discourse!

Cheers,
Monty

Interesting idea. NWhikers did something similar recently . A slightly snarkier vibe over there in general, but the TRs have definitely shifted.

Somebody actually "owns" this site. Really?? Guess I am dumb (said with a Forrest Gump drawl).

Love Scots last post. Goes to my point of all of us to stop taking this so seriously. It's just info on skiing. Not a freakin' phD dissertation. No one here is an expert or knows anymore then anyone else. We all just ski and love it. I could do it every day if that damn work thing/money thing didn't get in the way.

Got my reefer (well.....wish I did), my PB&J and heading with my kids (14 yo boy and 13 yo girl) to the Crystal SC (sidecountry) this weekend. What could be f'in better then that.

You all have a great weekend skiing too!

Peace!

Marcus you are doing an excellent job in my humble opinion, so keep up your good work and follow your true gut instincts on any things that may give you thoughts for consideration.
All the powder hound doggies on the site are more than a tribe or a community, we are like a pack of wild furry golden eyed wolves with our hair bristled up at the scent of winter and its storms; we all know without having to think or ponder that we are connected because of snow and that connection is a scent and a feeling that goes a long long way and like a pack or a herd or a flock the universal spirit of nature runs through us and with us and carries us to summits and back. Our love is shared and like all doggies some of us are tougher, smarter, kinder, more beautiful, more full of wolf's blood than others, but here we all are because of TAY.
There is a world of specific information here that has helped this dog more times than I can say.

Semi-random thoughts after a busy day away from TAY...

I'm going to keep an open mind about Scotsman's suggestion about making TAY more of a "community-owned" site (for lack of a better phrase). Of course Marcus would have to agree with this. Creating a panel of moderators has some appeal (at least superficially). But when I think about this a little more, I return to the fact that it hasn't been easy for Charles and/or Marcus to get moderators to volunteer. Where would a new panel of moderators come from?

I'd be interested to hear from other people who've worked in volunteer organizations. My experience is that most of them have involved one, maybe two, people who are really passionate about the mission and do the vast majority of the work. In the building of TAY that was Charles, with help from Ron and MarkHarf. Today we have Marcus with just Ron (I believe). Who would be willing to step in and really become involved if we tried to relaunch TAY with a more community-based ownership? Color me open-minded, but skeptical.

Related to this is the notion of software acquisition, maintenance, and tools. Several people have suggested adding features to TAY, including upgraded photo capabilities, an "ignore" feature, and perhaps more. This requires work. My sense is that Marcus is barely keeping his head above water presently and it is difficult for him to respond to these requests. Would a new organization fare any better? And, if there are people out there who can do this technical work, what's preventing them from stepping forward now?

Several people have said that it would be better for the TAY community to self-moderate, rather than having Marcus or Ron step in. I agree with that. But it seems that asking Marcus to do all the software work is asking a lot as well. Can somebody in the community help?

A few people have suggested creating a new forum as a home for more "lively" discussions. I can see how that might help. If a discussion started well in another forum and then went off the rails, it might be a simple thing for a moderator to just move it to this new forum. Call it "The Slush Pile" or something. On the other hand, I can imagine there might be unintended consequences that I haven't thought of.

Seems people are making this all much more difficult then it needs to be. Like a referee in a basketball game, the good ones are the ones that are seldom noticed but keep the game going at a civil pace.

I've been running my own site for 14 years as the solo moderator and I am the lone person who decides what is and is not posted. My rules were simple, no personal attacks. If some happen I simply delete them and go on (I actually did this today). Usually nobody even notices so there is not a big issue. Marcus is the man and he should just pull the trigger if he feels it should be done, no apologies....his site. How he does this will either attract users, or push them away. My 2 cents.....

Well, I've been here on TAY from the very start, when Charles first added a trip-reports section to what had previously been his personal website, at Ron's suggestion and as a continuation of the Mountaineers trip reports board. That was in early 2001, long before it became a user-postable forum in October 2002. Many of you know me to some extent, either just through my trip reports and my website, or having met in person. I've been watching this thread closely, but initially for some reason I just didn't feel like commenting -- but I think I should add my thoughts to the others:

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General atmosphere:

* I think that the most important thing is to not drive away any readers, current contributors, or potential future contributors. The site is useful because it has a critical mass of people posting useful information on a regular basis. That is the most important aspect of the TAY community, and not diluting or diminishing that should be the number-one priority.

It seems to be clear that the increasing harshness (and sometimes even outright nastiness) has driven away a number of contributors, and made a significant number of TAY members less likely to post for fear of harsh criticism from a small minority of overly-vocal critics. These critics (as evidenced above) just can not seem to understand why many people don't like to criticized and abused -- that seems to be easy to understand for me and most others, though. Telling the meek and timid that they need to "grow up or sack up" just feels like further abuse to them, and is clear evidence that the people thinking that way just don't get it. Something appears to be deficient in their interpersonal skills, at least online, which they should reflect on and try to improve.

I've always been overly harsh, argumentative, judgmental, and critical (having been raised in such an environment, and then working in an extreme example of such an environment as a physicist for over 15 years), so I understand well these types of mentalities -- they were (are) my own. Yet since my late teens (2 decades now), I've done everything I can to improve myself in these areas and reduce such behaviors as much as possible, both in real-life and online, with only partial success. So from personal experience, I say that perhaps it's you guys who need to grow up and stop acting that way: harsh, argumentative, judgmental, and critical is no way to go through life, and no way to treat others in person or online. It also seems (based on the few of you I've met) that perhaps you only act this way online, and behave much more civilly and nicely in person -- so why not do that online too?

Many people who are reticent, shy, or timid still have much to contribute. I think that fairly aggressive moderating / policing (as has been done in the past, and continues to be done somewhat now) is essential in this case to retain those members and contributors. If that atmosphere drives away a small number of overly-vocal and aggressive critics, then so be it -- these people have self-declared thick skins anyway, and they may even come back later if they miss the content TAY provides. But keeping out the trash-talk and nonsense will help retain those less aggressive and outspoken members who might otherwise leave and not dare to come back. Marcus (and Ron), I think you're doing well under a large workload and a tough balancing act.


* Real names vs. anonymous posters: It's obvious that anonymous posters cause most of the problems, on almost any internet forum. Those who post under their real name (either full or partial) tend to be more restrained from any unacceptable (or even marginal) behavior. Anonymous posting has always annoyed me, for a very simple reason: in many cases, you have no idea if you actually do know that person in real life. For some of the long-time anons on TAY (like Scotsman and PNW Brit), I happen to have met them, skied with them, and know their real names. But for others (like oftpiste and gravitymk, just to pick the names of 2 of the most vocal people above in this thread), I have no idea if I actually know them or not in real life. Perhaps I have met them, but I just have no idea, looking at their usernames here now. This makes effective communication, especially in difficult or touchy situations, much more difficult -- communicating and debating civilly with a human being is much easier than with an anonymous handle.

However, I realize that maintaining the option of anonymous posting is important for those users who feel they need it, and can't bring themselves to post without it. So I'm not sure what the fix is, other than perhaps strongly suggesting that members choose to post under their real names. Quoting oftpiste above, to these most vocal and aggressive members "I say sack up, grow up," and have the courage to post your strongly-held beliefs under your real name. Leave anonymous posting to the more timid members, who might wish the protection of anonymity. You guys clearly do not need it. More users posting under real names is a positive in any internet community, and would be a big step towards improving the TAY atmosphere.

One of the nice things about the TAY software is that the displayed name on posts is user-changeable (unlike many other forums where it is not), without having to change the username itself. Currently anonymous members could simply change the displayed name in their profile, or they could add their real name in their signature, if maintaining the currently displayed username is important to them. Either of these changes would be visible immediately on all of their previous posts, but could also be removed equally easily if there is later a need for more anonymity for some legitimate reason.

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Moderators and ownership:

* Transparency of moderating / banning: One of the problems of moderating / banning on these types of forums (TAY, CC, TGR, etc) is that the general community has no idea what was deleted, or why someone was banned. For example, I don't know what PNW Brit said in his post that broke the camel's back and led to his ban, since Marcus had already edited it out before I read it. Things work much better if there is some way for the community to know exactly what crossed the line, and why someone was banned.

To give an example of an internet forum where such openness is automatic and works wonderfully: Wikipedia, the world's largest user-created website, and containing a vibrant discussion community too, really a mega-forum of sorts which exists on the Talk:, User:, and Wikipedia: namespaces of the site. But also constantly under attack from an endless train of vandals, spammers, trolls, and biased/nationalistic/psychopathic editors (since anyone can edit it). I've been an administrator on Wikipedia since 2007, a community-elected position which is permanent unless revoked for cause -- it's both moderator and janitor, we can delete pages or block users, among many other maintenance capabilities -- there are now about 1700 admins out of 14 million registered accounts on the English Wikipedia alone. Because it's a wiki (which means that it maintains a complete public history of every edit and any other user action), every action an admin takes is visible and reviewable by anyone if they know where to look, in the public log files. Most objectionable content that is removed is also viewable in the page history of each page, so anyone can find out exactly what someone else posted in order to receive the block or ban that they got. This makes it easy to learn what behavior crosses the line, and what may be marginally acceptable, while easing any lingering doubts about fairness. Of course, as in any community, different admins have slightly different standards, and in some cases another admin may disagree with an action, in which case it can be discussed and perhaps reconsidered or changed.

On TAY, since it does not retain any such history or logs publicly, there is no such openness and transparency right now. Is there some way of adding that type of transparency, to some degree at least? Some way of just telling the community exactly why such actions were taken?  In some cases on TAY (at least one), users have been quietly banned by Charles (only from posting -- they can and do still log in), sometimes much belatedly, after nearly 2 years of abusive posts and PMs to other members. But those who had been most affected (the victims of the abuse and bullying) did not even know that these users had finally been banned, that they could safely return to TAY without fear of further attacks. That's not the way it should work at all.


* I definitely think that there should be a somewhat larger group of moderators, say 4 to 6. The site is large enough to need it, and what happens if both Marcus and Ron J are out of town at the same time, perhaps on hut trips without internet access? The spammers and wing-nuts would go wild and unchecked for several days. Two moderators is just too few. Of course, moderators need to be appointed with caution, since anyone with access to the "delete" button has the potential to cause a lot of damage very quickly if they become disgruntled or disgusted with TAY at some point in the future. Fixing such damage afterwards from backups would be a huge hassle.

* Technical assistance: I'd be willing to help, and have told Marcus so when he asked me (regarding fixing the broken thumbnails) -- I've heard nothing further since then. I've run my own website for nearly 14 years, including a PHP/MySQL database back-end for over 7 years, so I have some amount of technical know-how. However, I've been reluctant to take on any more tasks, since I can't seem to find enough time for the things already on my plate now, or get the things done that I really need to complete (the book). But I'd make an exception for TAY, and could contribute a useful amount of time and energy (a few hours per week, on average -- but occasionally much more in short bursts).

* Regarding ownership of the site, I don't see any pressing need to have it owned by a "Friends of TAY" group as Scotsman has suggested, although that is an interesting idea and worth considering. But in any case, I assume that Marcus has some contingency plan in place, in case of an unforeseen tragedy? The site's content has grown extensive and important enough that we, as the community that created the content, should have confidence that it will remain accessible permanently (as much as anything can be permanent). It would be good for the community to know what that contingency plan is.

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Adding or deleting boards on TAY:

* There's no need to get rid of the lift-served trip reports. Reports of snow conditions are an essential core part of TAY. The snow conditions info posted there is very useful, and getting rid of it would be a major loss. Even though I only very-rarely post a TR there myself, it's usually because someone else does so before I get home, anytime the conditions are notable enough that I'd want to write a TR.

* A portion of Random Tracks could be split off into a separate board: "Weather, Snow, Avalanche". I had been thinking about asking Charles to do this for several years, since a significant portion of the content in Random Tracks is hardly random. Just glancing at the latest 100 threads, it looks like about 20-25% would fall under the "Weather, Snow, Avalanche" category, which is an essential subject for backcountry skiing. Some TAY members who avoid looking at Random Tracks might not feel that way about the "Weather, Snow, Avalanche" board, and so the quantity and quality of posts and information on those subjects would likely increase following a split, which would benefit all.

This could be implemented immediately, as a new empty board. If Marcus needs help in sorting through the 3700+ topics in Random Tracks to figure out which should be moved to that board for posterity, I would be willing to help. Any topics moved should be done in a way that preserves the URL (or leaves a working redirect), to avoid breaking any existing links to and between these threads.

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That's it for now, once I started writing, this thing just grew way too long -- sorry.
But if I think of something else important, I may edit this to add it here.


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A few people have suggested creating a new forum as a home for more "lively" discussions. I can see how that might help. If a discussion started well in another forum and then went off the rails, it might be a simple thing for a moderator to just move it to this new forum. Call it "The Slush Pile" or something. On the other hand, I can imagine there might be unintended consequences that I haven't thought of.

Others have mentioned this too, but I view Random Tracks already in this light. The TRs can be civil and pointed, in other words: useful. While Random Tracks is more community specific banter.

Interesting discussion. Only been here since 2004. Amar has articulated most of the same thoughts that I have had on the subject. Thank you for your well written post. I will only add that among my friends up here in B'ham who ski hard (as hard as folks with jobs and families will allow) and are very active, TAY has become a bit of a joke. The level of discourse in the past few years has diminished the stature of the site with a significant group of backcountry skiers. It used to be a pretty friendly place with lots of good information. To me it often takes on the tone and hunger for attention that is common on other user group sites. Mainly because you have a bunch of males elbowing each other for stature and the spotlight.

Skiing is a wonderful activity. Our discussions and the information we provide one another should reflect this and underlie the words and the thoughts that inspire them.

Peace
Gregg Cronn

One of the nice things about the TAY software is that the displayed name on posts is user-changeable (unlike many other forums where it is not), without having to change the username itself. Currently anonymous members could simply change the displayed name in their profile, or they could add their real name in their signature, if maintaining the currently displayed username is important to them. Either of these changes would be visible immediately on all of their previous posts, but could also be removed equally easily if there is later a need for more anonymity for some legitimate reason.

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Thanks for the info.  I had always considered the names were more of a fun aspect to this and usually sign by my first name anyway.  But I am giving this a try.  I may revert to the BigSnow and make a signature instead.

Anyone who actually knows me knows what my old username was, but in fact I realize that I may actually meet more people in the real world more easily if they know my real name.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

Edit: Just to add some info for anyone making the change, I found that I could not do it in the beta version of Firefox (4). Had to go to Internet Explorer. On the other hand I couldn't do this simple edit on Internet Explorer, the window had a odd behavior.

It is nice that all my posts in the past have made the change, I think. Maybe a signature would be best. Will all the past posts include a newly added signature?

I've been following this thread in bits for the last few weeks, trying to piece together some coherent response.... from Singapore (It's a damn nice place to live, minus snow, BTW).

I think the key attribute of TAY is that it isn't TGR or cc.com. Relaxing all the moderating will just form a PNW-specific version of TGR, which will be a great loss to everyone. Isn't it reasonable to have different portals for different audiences, purposes, and demographics? The brah-uber-gnar noise at TGR etc is just that, noise, IMHO. Which is fun on occasion, but not the role I see TAY playing for the vast majority of posters.

That said, the growth from a small, homespun effort to a much more comprehensive site might mean that some changes are inevitable, but I think it is well within the moderator(s) rights to shape that as they see fit, assuming they don't become arbitrary, petty, or vindictive. 

Maybe everyone should just go do a few sweet laps to remind themselves why they are doing it? 

"Then for four miles downhill running, carefree and as happy as the winds that flew with us. Not even the beasts of the forests trespassed upon this ground we were skimming. Forgotten were all the petty, sordid things that surround one in this greedy rush to exist among the smokestacks of the city. For here, in the covert of the towering, unchanging mountains, we lived.”
('In The Northwest' American Ski Annual, 1934).

Maybe I should reply since I am pratically spawnd from here.

Most times I like the atmosphere here. I have no problems with scotsman and like his blunt attitude, and seeming ability to not take himself to seriously... mostly. I think any general negative vibe being blamed on Chris is unfair. While his brand may be easy to recognise, it's no more corrosive then the clever passive agressive attempts at bringing someone down.


This was Charles's baby, and he chose his successor. Live with it. IMO, he made a very good choice. Marcus is a model citizen in the backcountry community, and maybe more so in the bad times then the good. I don't know of anyone else who puts more time and effort into activities geared towards helping others. That's the type of selfless individual I would like to see retain sole ownership.

It shows in that he cared even to bother asking. What kind of dictator ask his people how they feel?!? I think that Marcus should honor Charles, and do what he thinks is best. Don't worry about everybody and their agendas lobbying for this and that. No body is ever happy in politics.

sincerly,

me

Member of NoFOTAY

There's no way I have the time to read, digest and respond to the many issues in this thread. My God! (who happens to preside over the church of the great blue dome). I am a lawyer originally from NYC who can claim to being a great heckler. But I know when and where to bring it.

My boys are 4 and 6. Teaching them teaches me. We are working on and struggling with this one, my opinion that Manners are a way of telling others that you respect and care for them, of making them feel welcome and of nurturing community. That applies here too. Manners is the answer.

I have an old saying "it is always good to live in the noisiest house on the block." But maybe not so nice to live next door. If I move into the U District next to frat boys or into Belltown above a bar I should expect frat parties and closing time noise. But otherwise not. If you get my drift.

As an aside, technical improvements to the site are plausible and possible but really have little to do with the core issues here. That being said, I prefer the quicker triggered moderator. There is actually virtually no individual morsel of content on this site whose loss would be tragic. But a rip in our fabric of community could be fatal.

My bottom line: it is possible to disagree in substance with someone and to tell them why without being insulting or self-aggrandizing. Be respectful (and not just "with all due respect") and all voices in this thread will have room. Try to use humor instead of scorn (and not the "can't you see I was riffing on Eminem" humor, I'm talking about warm humor.) Harsh language and personal attacks add nothing of value. I am truly astounded that the people who are deemed too harsh and negative here can't channel better. You all have such a great treasure of shared interests and experiences with the "positive" parts of this community. Focus on that. Respect the enormity of the task Marcus has taken on and rest assured that his very posting of the query that opened this can of worms proves that he is the right person for the job.

Thanks to all who have taken this so seriously. Please now give Marcus some room to breathe. And send him your thanks.

Jim O'Donnell

Semi-random thoughts after a busy day away from TAY...

I'm going to keep an open mind about Scotsman's suggestion about making TAY more of a "community-owned" site (for lack of a better phrase). Of course Marcus would have to agree with this. Creating a panel of moderators has some appeal (at least superficially). But when I think about this a little more, I return to the fact that it hasn't been easy for Charles and/or Marcus to get moderators to volunteer. Where would a new panel of moderators come from?

Who would be willing to step in and really become involved if we tried to relaunch TAY with a more community-based ownership? Color me open-minded, but skeptical.

Thank you for keeping an open mind Lowell. Your "Termite" response to my initial suggestion both impressed me with it's vehement negativity AND creativity and now this post impresses me with your positive side. You have many talents.
But seriously, I am grateful to both Charles and Marcus for the creation and upkeep of TAY and I recognize in both exemplary human beings who are willing to put it out there for their community.
However, we can't keep on going along with the situation where any time there is even constructive criticism of TAY ( I'm not not characterizing mine as)or it's moderation ,we are constantly told we should just be grateful, that it's time consuming  and thankless etc, etc. Or that it could be closed down because the SOLE owner decides to ( Which He can for whatever reason at present). Too much power in one place, no matter who it is or benevolent they are.

The model needs revamping to share the load ( plus it will have added benefits of making it more diversified in IMHO) and the time to do this is now. I bet you that if you called for volunteers for boardmembers/moderators of a FOTAY to manage  the site and raise funds for it, you would get them.

If the members/ lurkers of this fine website as so apathetic and willing to just site back and let others do the hard work then they aren't quite so "community" oriented as they like to think they are. YOU TALK THE TALK BUT DONT WALK THE WALK.

So you Freeloading TAYers just sitting back there allowing Marcus to do all the hard work, sack up, get off your couches, volunteer to be a Boardmember/Moderator of TAY or FOTAY. Think of the kudos, the  reaction of that cute telechick when you tell her you are a boardmember and have been chosen to be a moderator because of your superior diplomatic skills and enhanced empathy as a human being. You'll come across as Clintonesque and we all know the chicks love Bill.

Edit to add:  I repledge $1,000, hell... lets call it $1500 for the formation of FOTAY or whatever organisation is developed for the community purchase of TAY from Marcus. No strings attached.