TAY Atmosphere

IMHO
Random tracks is the MOST interesting part of TAY because it's informative and some of the discussions extremely interesting as are some of the personalities displayed. To turn it into a dry, information only, technical site  where even frivolous or simply humorous posts ( even about the merits of bobble hats)would not be allowed ,would be a grave mistake. Censorship= history has proven and continue to proves its a failed strategy especially in the age of the internet. TAY would become the North Korea of skiing websites. Marxism believed that in the workers utopia that communism would create, the proletariat would post on websites only technical and uplifting discussions on worker productivity and serving the " commune". It didn't work out that way and North Korea is I believe, not a very humorous or pleasant place.

Trip reports are becoming scarcer because the BC is becoming overrun( due to WA's lack of good winter access's)and people are reluctant to post where they went and especially when the conditions are good because it will attract people to that spot. I know a lot of TAYers who complain about the same old TR's to the same old spots and bemoan the lack of TR's "like the old days" who themselves, seemingly in personal denial, refuse to post about their exploits for fear of attracting competition.

Lift Access is mostly irrelevant but it does provide an avenue for discussions into the myriad customs, etiquette,and byzantine details that is serious resort skiing. I fear some may dislike it for the attractive forces a good DDK report may have on the lift lines the following day and the competition in the secret stashes which are nowadays very few.

Such is the nature of humans who will complain about the intentions and selfishness of others while being selfish themselves.

^ I like that there are people willing to go off the reservation to make a point. It's entertaining. I lose interest when those wanderings turn mean. The emerging theme seems to be, discuss, debate, argue, laugh, entertain and inform while being good to each other. That seems reasonable.

When it comes to being "family friendly" the waters get murky for me. Tune in to CBC radio at any given time and you are likely to hear the F bomb dropped often. Bless the Canadians for their honesty. Is it a matter of parental control or a cultural standard imposed in the ever evolving social experiment of the inter-tubes? Saucy language is the norm in my house. Points awarded for creativity. However, everyone is put on best behavior when visiting Grandma (bless her heart) because that is the norm in her house. Should TAY become like a visit to Grandmas house? The snow riding "community" seems too diverse and vibrant for that.

IMHO
Random tracks is the MOST interesting part of TAY because it's informative and some of the discussions extremely interesting as are some of the personalities displayed. To turn it into a dry, information only, technical site  where even frivolous or simply humorous posts ( even about the merits of bobble hats)would not be allowed ,would be a grave mistake. Censorship= history has proven and continue to proves its a failed strategy especially in the age of the internet. TAY would become the North Korea of skiing websites. Marxism believed that in the workers utopia that communism would create, the proletariat would post on websites only technical and uplifting discussions on worker productivity and serving the " commune". It didn't work out that way and North Korea is I believe, not a very humorous or pleasant place.

Trip reports are becoming scarcer because the BC is becoming overrun( due to WA's lack of good winter access's)and people are reluctant to post where they went and especially when the conditions are good because it will attract people to that spot. I know a lot of TAYers who complain about the same old TR's to the same old spots and bemoan the lack of TR's "like the old days" who themselves, seemingly in personal denial, refuse to post about their exploits for fear of attracting competition.

Lift Access is mostly irrelevant but it does provide an avenue for discussions into the myriad customs, etiquette,and byzantine details that is serious resort skiing. I fear some may dislike it for the attractive forces a good DDK report may have on the lift lines the following day and the competition in the secret stashes which are nowadays very few.

Such is the nature of humans who will complain about the intentions and selfishness of others while being selfish themselves.

I agree on all points. well said.... IMHO of course.

...  flame throwing ... didn't happen. 

Don't think I don't remember Jarvis Jelly! Its all there, just do a google on it.

Other than that, I'm too tired to fight on the internet anymore. Besides, in retrospect, I just look stupid when I do. Not to imply that others look stupid when they get aggressive, just me.

For myself the photo limit moved me to NWH to post TRs and link back here to share (their photo posting is also much simpler).

This has been a growing concern of mine. I'd like to see the TAY photo guidelines and tools updated. When I see JimD and JasonH cross-posting from nwhikers.net, it tells me that something is wrong here.

I understand that there have been problems with the thumbnail tools for several months now. Could someone in the community give Marcus a hand with that? I think the current "guideline limbo" is not good for TAY.

Being in my mid 60's, I've been rereading the Rules of Aging by Roger Rosenblatt.  Our current thread reminds me of rule #27: Just because the person who criticizes you is an idiot doesn't make him wrong.   

I enjoy the diverse opinions.  I do not enjoy the personal attacks about an individual's comments.  If you disagree with a person's comments, a thoughtful response without slander seems like a genuine way to point out alternative ideas.  You can always send the individual a PM, and say whatever and spare the rest of us that part of the dialogue.

I enjoy TAY and want to see it continue to evolve and grow. I am disappointed when experienced contributors and lurkers are reluctant to participate because they are not interested in being subjected to negative personal comments.  It seems that most TAY individuals do not enjoy being verbally abused on a public forum.   

Thanks Marcus.  It certainly is a thankless job at times.  I am pleased that you started the thread to allow the community to express their opinions

^ I like that there are people willing to go off the reservation to make a point. It's entertaining. I lose interest when those wanderings turn mean. The emerging theme seems to be, discuss, debate, argue, laugh, entertain and inform while being good to each other. That seems reasonable. 

Sounds more Scandinavian than North Korean.  In North Korea, there could only be one pair of skis allowed by law.  The rest of us would have to schlep him and his gear up the hill and shovel powder into the tracks from last run.  Firing squad for mentioning the existence of snow.

... TAY would become the North Korea of skiing websites. Marxism believed that in the workers utopia that communism would create, the proletariat would post on websites only technical and uplifting discussions on worker productivity and serving the " commune". It didn't work out that way and North Korea is I believe, not a very humorous or pleasant place.

I think a generalized version of Godwin's Law is applicable.

This is a great thread.

I think that the technological issues are an impediment to some users. There aren't too many sites with such strict photo limits, although I understand the issues of hosting costs.

This is a great thread.

I think that the technological issues are an impediment to some users. There aren't too many sites with such strict photo limits, although I understand the issues of hosting costs.

I just suggested to Marcus that we upgrade the forum software (It's in a version from 2006) and maybe move image hosting to an external site. There are several add-ons for SMF that will do just that... That would remove picture limits, and remove a ton of stress on the server.

In my opinion, the current posting guidelines are well stated, simple, and should be enforced:

•Be civil and respectful, avoid personal attacks - that is the norm here;
•Alternate viewpoints are welcome: debate the viewpoint, not the person;
•This is a skiing forum: please keep your posts related to skiing;

When TAY started, I think these guidelines were the common practice for those who posted here which fostered the positive reputation the site has earned over the years.  Unfortunately, it seems a more common occurrence today for these guidelines to be ignored with no consequence.  I personally find this to be detrimental to the site. Lowell clearly pointed to one of the most egregious and recurring examples with which I totally agree.  My postings have diminished considerably over the past couple of years, partly for personal reasons/priorities and partly because I feel less connected to a community that is indifferent to and tolerant of these type of disrespectful comments. 

I come to TAY because it does a good job of aggregating multiple sources of information into one place (weather, telemetry, avy reports, etc).  I also come here for reports on the latest conditions and interesting trips that are informative and sometimes inspirational.   I like lift access reports and would be sorry to see them go; I would like to see them more encouraged and creative.  I don't come here for the entertainment value of members being bullied, personally attacked, or otherwise disrespected which has become an accepted standard in Random Tracks.

My request is that the current guidelines be enforced by the moderators.  I am sure some will argue that what constitutes a personal attack or being disrespectful is subject to opinion, and that placing any limits is a form of censorship.  I disagree.  I think it is a matter of common sense and common courtesy which this site deserves.

I stopped posting here and only found my login to pay respects when Monika passed.

In re the main subject "TAY Atmosphere", the site is very regional and parochial. The posters here seem to want to keep it that way and that is your prerogative.

The photo limits and guidelines are stone-age. I put some thought and effort into posting decent TRs and lost interest after I was lectured by Charles for putting up a multi-day Rogers Pass story in one thread. Having little interest in being lectured like a small child but respecting the wishes of the site owner I truncated my stories and dumbed down my pictures to meet the archaic site guidelines. But this is added work for little (or perhaps zero) payback on my part. It's Charles's site and his rules to make. Basically it was a pain to comply with the site guidelines and the content posted here has almost zero interest to me (the exception being the odd discounted Selkirks Hut trips or some gear for sale) so I stopped reading). After checking in again I am still of that opinion so any barbs thrown my way for this opinion will almost certainly not be read.

On the subject of secret stashes. This is the only place on the Internet where I've been stalked by someone for putting up trip reports about popular ski areas in the Duffey Lake area. This is a frankly astounding attitude given the amount of space we have here in BC and I do not take such lectures seriously. I've seen this localism in the odd TR of interest I've read in TAY. Quite ugly but again, if that's the way you want to live to live your lives, then have at it.

Respect to all for the love and good vibes you had as a community for Monika.

I appreciate many of the points Jim Oker made in this post (emphasis below added by me):

I think it's quite possible to have a good robust debate without attacking others personally, and in fact I think a thread is more likely to "get to the heart of the matter" if folks discipline themselves to skip the tempting personal attacks while not holding back from disagreeing on more subsantive matters. Personal attacks are a fallacious form of argument (from this link: "In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.")...

Suggestion to Jim and Marcus: Would it be helpful to refine Jim's post and make it a sort of addendum to (or elaboration on) the TAY guidelines? Maybe a separate page that can be linked to. Something like this could be a helpful reference when a thread goes off the rails. It might be helpful for TAYers to "self-moderate."

Jim's point about focusing on the content of a claim and not on the characteristics of the person making the claim resonates with me. Scotsman's favorite smear of me is that I am a hypocrite. He's pulled this out several times when I've offered a critique of outdoor media. He feels that because I volunteer-published the Northwest Mountaineering Journal (www.nwmj.org) for several years, any criticism I make about outdoor media is hypocrisy.

Returning to Jim's point, Scotsman could have started an interesting discussion by asking me, "How do you reconcile your opinions with your work on the NWMJ?" On the occasions when he has smeared me, I've tried to explain where I'm coming from, but it has gone nowhere. Tossing out the word hypocrite is so much simpler. And it makes it easy to completely avoid addressing (on the merits) whatever it was that I was originally trying to say. And now the idea that TAY has "its fair share of hypocrites" is a meme that Scotsman continues to promote .

In my opinion, the current posting guidelines are well stated, simple, and should be enforced:

•Be civil and respectful, avoid personal attacks - that is the norm here;
•Alternate viewpoints are welcome: debate the viewpoint, not the person;
•This is a skiing forum: please keep your posts related to skiing;

My request is that the current guidelines be enforced by the moderators.  I am sure some will argue that what constitutes a personal attack or being disrespectful is subject to opinion, and that placing any limits is a form of censorship.  I disagree.  I think it is a matter of common sense and common courtesy which this site deserves.

Paul has nailed it and I could not agree more. I owe the site a lot for real world benefit; new friends, trips I would not otherwise have gone on, safety knowledge and discussions. It’s discouraging both to wade through posts of personal attacks trying to find useful content, and also to avoid entering a potentially substantive discussion either for worry about being dragged down into the crap or because the thread has already gone there.

The name calling seems a lot like a political attack ad.  Discount your opponenent and hope everyone stops paying attention to their message.  Fortunately, I think most TAYers are more discriminating than the electorate average.  (how's that for elitist?)

I don't see any reason for eliminating frivolous topics.  While I didn't have any interest in bobble hats, I am entertained by many of Scotsman's topics.  As long conforms to the posting guidelines, let it go.

I think upgrading software to allow Hummel type reports would help to refocus us all on what this site is really about.

Any time you challenge someone's ideas, there's a distinct (high, actually) risk that someone will take it personally, no matter how nice you try to be. While I admire the high ideals expressed by those seeking only constructive, non-personal discourse, I firmly believe that enforcing such an atmosphere will squelch this site.

The key word is "enforce." If, instead, the people who want this specific type of discourse become more active on the site than those who prefer a more open dialogue, you won't need to enforce it, it will just happen.

The "I don't post because Scotsman does" logic (yes I know no one said this directly, but I do think it's inferred) I see evolving in this thread is defeatist and lazy. The direction of this community is up to you. Want more positivity? Post more positivity. Put in as much energy as Scotsman does. Sending PMs to the moderators is not the way to create a vibrant, sustainable community. Get it in the open.

Already in Kyle's TR thread, there's now arguing about arguing. If there's ever a recipe for driving people away, combine that discussion with "I don't post TRs because I don't want anyone to go to my stash" and "I'm too scared to post" and you've got it.

Be brave and energetic enough to create the community you want, if indeed it's important enough to you. If not, those of us who are comfortable with a more free-flowing, at times messy, community will overwhelm you, simply by participating in the open.

...those of us who are comfortable with a more free-flowing, at times messy, community will overwhelm you, simply by participating in the open.

This is what I both read and hear directly is happening for some folks who participate less these days. This seems to be the way of these things, and expecting the perhaps meeker folks to "step up" appears quite unrealistic. Though I too very muck dislike the attacks (but I do love a good argument), I've chosen a different course - to attempt, and sometimes fail, to follow the example I'd prefer of content-focused debate when conflict occurs rather than the lazy and corrosive resort to personal attacks and bullying. I tend to call out the latter when I see it, and perhaps overdo it at times (e.g. on Kyle's TR thread), though I've gotten some private thanks for speaking up as well.

What I'm taking away from this thread is that no matter how the site is moderated, someone is going to feel like it's not their cup of tea and move on. So it seems to me that at the end of the day it's up to the guy running the site to decide what sort of place he wants to try to foster, and accept that someone's not going to like it.

Some have fairly noted that many folks will take any disagreement with their views personally. I see quite a difference, though, between this and not wanting to deal with bullying or other forms of personal attack. I too would hate to see a site where any disagreement is discouraged, and frankly I don't think we're even close to being there, and I'd hold up this and some other recent threads as Exhibit A. I think it's reasonable to expect folks to learn to deal with respectful disagreement, just as it's reasonable to expect folks to disagree respectfully.

To Lowell's point - I'd be happy to party with Marcus on refining what I wrote above, assuming this is in the vein of how he wants to guide the site.

Marcus, I do not post all that often, and do not engage in the day to day topics that come up, I do however read almost every day, and I love the trip reports, sorry to see that some of the best reporters are un happy and have decided to check out, too bad for me. I am a Luddite, and do not understand many of the issues about posting pictures, but I think it sure adds to a trip reports. My most important comment would be that I greatly appreciate you keeping the tone of TAY civil, I occasionally look at some of the other skiing pages, but end up here. There are plenty of great examples of the great comunity this is, and I think that is worth keeping. If people want to be mean and nasty there are plenty of venues for that, I think that leaves plenty of room for tough commentary, and mostly with a few noted exceptions, what I see is how I like it.

Genuine curiousity: Can someone share a link to a public internet forum of decent size/activity that they think is a good example of the kind of debate and tone you'd like here?

Why can't we use the standard of: if you were in a pub, sitting around a table of like-minded enthusiasts, enjoying a guinness, would you say something to their face that would make them feel invalidated? It's harder to be a bully while looking in her/his eyes. Likewise, nuance is much better understood, in person. But online, most, if not all nuance is lost, making sarcastic remarks seem all the more insulting (we don't see your mischievous wink at the end of your sentence). I agree with Marcus's micro-managing the online interactions a little closer than our cousin sites.

Genuine curiousity: Can someone share a link to a public internet forum of decent size/activity that they think is a good example of the kind of debate and tone you'd like here?

My favorite site on the whole internet:
www.turns-all-year.com

Genuine curiousity: Can someone share a link to a public internet forum of decent size/activity that they think is a good example of the kind of debate and tone you'd like here?

A quick Google search turned this one up. I am not a member.

poultrycommunity.com/forum/showthread.ph...-hens.....HELP/page3

I would guess the increase in negativity ... comes because negativity brings forth more negativity Nudging somebody to tone it down can cause...(them to)...act out with more negativity.

I’m all for differing opinions & debate but (for the above reason) when a post violates the terms I think it should be deleted as quickly as possible and without discussion.

Obviously due to “grey areas” this is easier in theory than reality. Humor may often be a culprit- what one person thinks is funny another may find offensive or just weird. I’ve certainly made a few satirical posts that probably came across poorly to many but were never intended to be mean spirited. I’d hate to eliminate joking altogether but we need to be careful with it.  Poking fun at and teasing friends is a common form of humor- many of the things my friends say to me (especially after a few hours/days in the mountains)  would be way out of bounds for a stranger to say. It gets complicated on the web where you have “virtual” friends.

You are doing a great Job Marcus & moderators. Thanks.

More photos & larger files would be good.

I keep seeing in this thread discussion of personal attacks, bullying and mean-spiritedness. I really don't recall seeing much if any of this in the time I've been a member, which covers a few years now.

What I have seen (along, of course, with a lot of great stuff) is a good deal of thin-skinnededness (like that?) and defensiveness when people are challenged on their behaviors or positions. Instead of defending their points they lash out. And it ain't Scotsman that's doing the lashing though I suspect he relishes being made the villain and all it does is add fuel to the fire. DUH!

I have to say that PNW Brit and Scotty - TAY's favorite scapegoats - are damned good friends of mine and some of my favorite people with whom to ski. They are not mean-spirited bullies and they'd go miles out of their way to help someone in need. What they are - besides being passionate, experienced and skilled (well, Brit anyway - ) skiers - are guys that don't suffer fools gladly (why they let me hang around is an ongoing question in this regard) and have no problem calling bullshit when they think it's deserved. You may not agree with their callouts, but instead of lashing out at them, banning them or deleting their (or others') posts, why not take the time to read between the lines and think about the comments and respond without being defensive. Perhaps you deserve the callout, perhaps not, but engage in debate. Hearty debate does not always have a civil tone, and those two certainly don't get their knickers in a twist when someone gives them a hard time.

I sometimes call my friends bad names when I disagree with them or when they're misbehaving and they do the same to me, and I don't think that they have no right to do so because I disagree, and I don't really care to hang out with people who can't stand a little torment from time to time.

Frankly, if you feel bullied by an anonymous voice on a ski-message board I'm a bit worried about you. How do you manage to negotiate rush hour traffic or a grocery store line? Do you run from a job interview in tears with your tail between your legs because the HR gal asked you hard questions?

In the early days of my TGR membership I made a couple of gaffs - completely unintentionally - that got a lot of crap heaped on my JONG ass. While it stung a bit I learned from it, and realized that when you are participating in any internet forum you may be exposing yourself to criticism or ridicule at some point. Knowing that this possibility exists should teach the poster to ensure that their posts won't put them in a position in which they do not want to be. If you can't accept that your position might be unpopular and open to criticism and deal with it like an adult when (not if) it happens, than you should probably not be involved in discussion forums. Don't rely on Marcus to protect you, protect your own bad self with your good sense, sense of humor, and well-earned wisdom!

IMHO, and very H it is, it seems by reading some of these comments that there are some folks here who take themselves WAY too seriously, and don't know how to deal with it when someone gives them a little shit. If you don't like it don't read it, and if you can't take a little crap, make sure you don't attract it.

There are certainly some characters here, and some people who's posts rub me the wrong way sometimes, but I wouldn't ever suggest they should be edited, banned or not be allowed to speak their minds and I'd hope they would never suggest I shouldn't be allowed to respond. To Marcus I say moderate with a light hand, offer the opportunity in private to edit or clarify before ever deleting or editing posts, or banning members who've pissed you off. To the general membership I say sack up, grow up, be willing to laugh at yourself, be willing to accept that you sometimes engage in buffoonery and that someone will probably call you out for it. It happens to everyone in lots of different arenas. Why should this one be any different?

would there be any sense to possibly adding some new forums to TAY to sort out the traffic?  TGR has 'the padded room'  ...not suggesting TAY should have something as potentially offensive and off-topic as that place, but what about a forum where lively banter can get exceeding lively?  or on the other side of the coin, have a forum similar to cascadeclimbers.com 'newbies' forum, where folks can ask the most bone-headed questions without fear of being stung?    anyways...just a passing thought….might make it easier for folks who don’t want to see rants to be able to avoid them entirely.

I think Charles was able to rule TAY with somewhat of an iron fist because the number of folks utilizing the site way back when was relatively small, the majority all got along just fine, and it wasn’t an overwhelming task for Charles to swoop in and ban folks who violated the terms of use…heck, Charles even scolded me once and threatened banishment many years ago when I made a smartass remark.  At some point the number of users gets to be too big for the moderators to keep such a tight grip on the site and it really becomes whatever the users make of it….and it seems like Marcus’ willingness to moderate in a more limited amount has allowed the users to have more pull in where this site is headed.

I enjoy that TAY is more like the ‘NPR’ of skiing sites…a little more factual, plain, and gentle than the louder sites like TGR…but I probably spend just as much time on TGR because I enjoy it for pure multimedia entertainment  and the larger knowledge pool there when asking questions about gear.   I would like the vibe in TAY to stay the way that it has been (or used to be), but as it grows in popularity, that seems less and less likely...hopefully TAY can adapt and keep its core vibe that we all enjoy so much.

Regarding photos… I hope the photo and video stuff catches up with the times…while I don’t like a TR that’s nothing but 30 poorly taken images, there are a lot of very talented photographers whos images I’d like to see here in their TR’s…having to look elsewhere on the web for Jason Hummel’s, JimD’s, and LeeLau’s awesome pictures is an unfortunate result of these now rather old school limits.

Finally… I am very grateful to Charles for starting this site and for Marcus committing so much time and energy into keeping this going…regardless of TAY’s quirks, this place is an incredible resource for the sport we are all so passionate about.

I enjoy that TAY is more like the ‘NPR’ of skiing sites…

Love this, and I love NPR.

IMHO, and very H it is, it seems by reading some of these comments that there are some folks here who take themselves WAY too seriously, and don't know how to deal with it when someone gives them a little shit. If you don't like it don't read it, and if you can't take a little crap, make sure you don't attract it.

If I post something stupid, feel free to tell me I am an idiot. Just be sure to tell me why you think so. If a newcomer posts something stupid, I would hope the reply could be phrased in such a way that they would not decide to never come back. Some people can handle criticism better than others. I don't see why there shouldn't be one site that is welcoming and a little forgiving of ignorance.

I rarely lurk or post, although I do a fair amount of bc skiing with husband and friends. What I have noticed on TAY over the past year or so is the development of a tone of negativity, and also what may be the evolution of a "tyranny of the minority."

Why do the rest of you let it happen? And, where is the respect for each other that we should all demonstrate? Showing civility is not being faux-positive, or superficial, or even passive-agressive. We are a community of backcountry skiers, and we should feel and show respect for each other, period.

My husband and I joined TAY in 2003 because it was an information-rich blog that NWAC actually obtained avalanche intelligence from; NWAC still references TAY reports and evidence of snowpack conditions in their avalanche bulletins.

I hope you will stay on, Lowell. I have enjoyed your trip reports and your history and I've learned a lot from your study of the region and your vast experience. I hope everybody who wants to post trip reports, share beta, intel on snow conditions, boast of wonderful or ridiculous, scary or brave or silly or easy, or whatever - backcountry ski experiences will continue to do so.

I've been posting on the internet since the 1980s. Rudeness isn't going to drive me away. I've probably seen worse behavior than anything TAY or TGR will ever dish up. (For example, there was the guy on rec.skiing.alpine who was ultimately banned from the Usenet by a court order. That case involved death threats as I recall.) I just think TAY can do better. It has done better, for many years now.

It's interesting that there is a growing contingent here that thinks people who prefer civility should just suck it up and get over it. So much for the meek inheriting the world...

A couple years ago I encountered the following post by Jason Kottke in one of my blog wanderings. I can't remember whether I've posted it on TAY before, but this seems like an appropriate time. According to Kottke's website , his posts are covered by the Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Creative Commons license . So I've copied this one in its entirety and am reposting it under the same terms.

Does the broken windows theory hold online?

The Economist reports that experimental tests of the controversial "broken windows theory" of social behavior indicate that the theory is correct.

"The most dramatic result, though, was the one that showed a doubling in the number of people who were prepared to steal in a condition of disorder. In this case an envelope with a EUR5 ($6) note inside (and the note clearly visible through the address window) was left sticking out of a post box. In a condition of order, 13% of those passing took the envelope (instead of leaving it or pushing it into the box). But if the post box was covered in graffiti, 27% did. Even if the post box had no graffiti on it, but the area around it was littered with paper, orange peel, cigarette butts and empty cans, 25% still took the envelope."

Here's the 1982 Atlantic article in which the theory was first discussed in a popular forum. (Great article, BTW.)

"At the community level, disorder and crime are usually inextricably linked, in a kind of developmental sequence. Social psychologists and police officers tend to agree that if a window in a building is broken and is left unrepaired, all the rest of the windows will soon be broken. This is as true in nice neighborhoods as in rundown ones. Window-breaking does not necessarily occur on a large scale because some areas are inhabited by determined window-breakers whereas others are populated by window-lovers; rather, one unrepaired broken window is a signal that no one cares, and so breaking more windows costs nothing."

Reading these articles, I wondered: how does the broken windows theory apply to online spaces? Perhaps like so:

Much of the tone of discourse online is governed by the level of moderation and to what extent people are encouraged to "own" their words. When forums, message boards, and blog comment threads with more than a handful of participants are unmoderated, bad behavior follows. The appearance of one troll encourages others. Undeleted hateful or ad hominem comments are an indication that that sort of thing is allowable behavior and encourages more of the same. Those commenters who are normally respectable participants are emboldened by the uptick in bad behavior and misbehave themselves. More likely, they're discouraged from helping with the community moderation process of keeping their peers in line with social pressure. Or they stop visiting the site altogether.

Unchecked comment spam signals that the owner/moderator of the forum or blog isn't paying attention, stimulating further improper conduct. Anonymity provides commenters with immunity from being associated with their speech and actions, making the whole situation worse...how does the community punish or police someone they don't know? Very quickly, the situation is out of control and your message board is the online equivalent of South Central Los Angeles in the 1980s, inhabited by roving gangs armed with hate speech, fueled by the need for attention, making things difficult for those who wish to carry on useful conversations.

But what about a site's physical appearance? Does the aesthetic appearance of a blog affect what's written by the site's commenters? My sense is that the establishment of social norms through moderation, both by site owners and by the community itself, has much more of an impact on the behavior of commenters than the visual design of a site but aesthetics does factor in somewhat. Perhaps the poor application of a default MT or Wordpress template signals a lack of care or attention on the part of the blog's owner, leading readers to think they can get away with something. Poorly designed advertising or too many ads littered about a site could result in readers feeling disrespected and less likely to participate civilly or respond to moderation. Messageboard software is routinely ugly; does that contribute to the often uncivil tone found on web forums?

By Jason Kottke  •  Dec 1, 2008 at 12:44 pm

The value I look for in choosing to contribute trip reports to an on-line forum such as this is positive feedback and collaboration from a larger audience than my immediate peers. I also enjoy the information made available from other trip reports on local knowledge especially in other regions I would like to someday tour in. Without this forum, I would not be as aware of new places, safety topics and stoke to get out there beyond my inner circle of friends.

I enjoy TAY for reasons already mentioned. You can moderate the negative all you want, but I don't see much you can do about it if that is the way the current players want to be like. I just decided to take any negative with a grain of salt. After following this thread so far, I've just decided I can only participate the way I would like TAY to be... a positive community of backcountry skiers.

this is an internet forum, where being rude while hiding behind your avatar is easy... if some one wants to throw rudeness around it only shows their maturity to the community, in the end they lose respect of the community. I'm not worried

I'm still not posting my secrete stashes...