TAY Atmosphere

....any time there is even constructive criticism of TAY ( I'm not not characterizing mine as)or it's moderation ,we are constantly told we should just be grateful, that it's time consuming and thankless etc, etc. Or that it could be closed down because the SOLE owner decides to ( Which He can for whatever reason at present).

Oddly enough, I haven't found this true at all. I've criticized and I've often witnessed others criticizing but heard nothing of the sort...with rare exceptions. Possibly that's why my conclusions are so different from this one, with which I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree:

Too much power in one place, no matter who it is or benevolent they are.

I can imagine circumstances under which I'd support an expanded, community-based ownership structure (in fact I suggested this possibility to Charles several years ago), but I don't feel at all supportive of the kind of website for which you've stated your desire, regardless of its ownership. This has nothing to do with laziness.

I have to say I've been impressed with the sophistication, wisdom and wide variety of perspectives expressed throughout this thread. If there are others currently holding back, I hope we hear from them as well.

Mark

I can imagine circumstances under which I'd support an expanded, community-based ownership structure (in fact I suggested this possibility to Charles several years ago)

Well since you beat me to it years ago in making this suggestion , why did it not gain any traction?
BTW, I'm not proposing any changes in the format, TOU, masthead, sections, atmosphere, rule enforcement, civilty or anything other than a change of ownership and the resignation of existing moderators and the adoption of a Board ( 4 to 6 members)that would also act as the moderator rotation. I've even said I have no problem if their first action is to ban me.... you still get the $1,500....... Looks like a win/win to me.
Why the reluctance to change it from a Fiefdom to a commune?
Is there a TAY aristocracy or something . Looking more and more like a monarchy to me where the title is passed from one member of the aristocracy to another while the serfs applaud the new King and vie for places ( and the influence )at court based upon their toadying to the King.

Why the reluctance to change it from a Fiefdom to a commune?

Sorry, but I've got no interest in trying to answer a question framed in this manner.

Is there a TAY aristocracy or something . Looking more and more like a monarchy to me where the title is passed from one member of the aristocracy to another while the serfs applaud the new King and vie for places ( and the influence )at court based upon their toadying to the King.

Nor do I care to engage with this particular sort of discourse. Others may be willing.

best,

Mark

Sorry, but I've got no interest in trying to answer a question framed in this manner.

Nor do I care to engage with this particular sort of discourse.  Others may be willing.

best,

Mark

I'm sure they won't.
Best,
Chris

I'm wary of a change that would shift from one person feeling final responsibility for the site to management-by-committee, which in other aspects of life seems to be a recipe for lack of accountability, lots of talk but often far less action, and watered down decisions. And yes, I'd be wary regardless of who suggested the change.

I'm wondering - are you aware of any online forums that operate with the management structure that you're proposing? If so, it would be interesting to see and hear what their experiences have been. In the meantime, the law of unintended consequences makes me wary and reminds me of that old saw, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it..."

It ain't perfect, but it ain't broke. FOTAY sounds like a giant PITA.

I see what I can find . However FONWAC operates as a community entity and funding organisation with FONWAC managing the website and had multiple boardmembers.
Don't see the problem myself, many no-profits organize themself like this.
Big decisions need to be taken by the board ( Policy, overall direction, advertisers, change in format etc.but moderation can occur as just now, two moderators on duty, other 2 or 4 getting on with their lives, rotate every month , or week, whatever.
Not every errant post being discussed by 6 moderators.!!!!!!!!
One boardmember computer expert and IT type guy/gal.

At present time, Marcus can ( not saying he will or wants to or whatever BUT he can !) decide to liquidate business and close it down without recourse other than public opinion. He could also decide to sell it to another individual or COMPANY(not saying he will or has even thought about it..... but he CAN)without recourse.
Etc., etc, scenario after scenario.

Not saying its broke( only dented) but community ownership by external funding means it lives on as community resource not a private business subject to owner's personal whims no matter how benevolent he/she is.
To remind you of RonJ's words( which I'm sorry but I find a cautionary)

Quote" But the fact is it is neither. It is a business; a solely owned business owned by one person who may choose to run it in any way he wishes. He has absolutely no obligation to be “Fair” to you or anyone else. Check the Terms of Use; nothing in there about the site, moderators or owners having any obligation to be fair. Probably nothing in the articles of incorporation or by-laws either.

I'm on a non-profit board that has been carefully set up to be independant and to have up-to-date governance rules. The Executive Director still owns most of the decisions, including ones that could well lead to the death of the non-profit. The board is filled with people who do a mix of: donating significant funds, helping find others to donate significant funds, and providing advice that relates to each of our own domains of expertise (e.g. finance, law, information technology, marketing and branding, etc.) - this seems quite prudent given the complexity of running an operation that employs tens of people and which takes in significant donated funds as well as revenue from customers. We also provide a good external sanity check on big decisions that will influence the future of the organization. Some of us also take on specific projects that also relate to our domains of expertise, though generally the point is for us to be giving advice and not doing the work nor making the decisions.

It's not clear to me how a board would help TAY.

I get that community ownership might help ensure that a capricious whim by Marcus, or perhaps a more grave personal event, might spell the death of the site. I'm not really worried about such possibilities; I guess I have a possibly naive assumption that he would pass the torch if he couldn't carry on (have you addressed TAY in your will, Marcus?  ), and that the next site owner would turn out to be as benevolent as Brent, Charles, and Marcus have been. I can't imagine that anyone would pay Marcus much to buy the site, so I'm not worried that a surplus of money is going to drive this thing down the advertising drain either. But I'm quite sure that if at some point TAY ends up in the hands of a malevolant dictator, the community will rise up and some among us will spawn a new site. The new site would start w/o the fantastic archives we have here, unless someone has been clever enough to stash a copy from time to time...

On the flipside, the community ownership notion seems to have its own perils, including diffusion of responsibility and associated lack of individual accountability. Plus it sounds more complicated. Occam's razor comes to mind.

I thought FONWAC was a fundraising operation with a simple set of fundraising pages hanging off the NWAC web site, as well as a group that puts on some public education events. And that the funds raised help support the NWAC, which is managed by the USDA/FS (while having a variety of funding sources). It seems to me to be a very different task than managing a site like TAY.

I look at TAY as if it were a car. Marcus' car and he is the driver and we all are passengers. Some in the front seat and some in the back seat and we are all having fun and enjoying the trip because it's where we all wish to go and the TAY car is taking us there and Marcus has not asked any of us for gas money because he is happy to have us along on the trip. In the back seat and the front seat there are many conversations, interjections and lots of enthusiastic points of view and even arguing and communal joking and poking and making fun and even taking umbrage at what someone said, but we are all "on the bus" or in the car and the car is very sound and runs well and works fine and the driver/owner takes care of it and does the maintenance and I am really happy with the ride and the trip and the car and it's not like we need a new vehicle with a bunch of new drivers. I like the sound and meaning of "if it ain't broken don't fix it."

fotay.org is available for $13/yr. vBulletin (what TGR uses) is ~$200/yr. Unlimited data hosting is $350/yr. $1500 would get nearly three years of community-moderated FOTAY. The internet gives users freedom of choice. cascadeclimbers, nwhikers, skisickness, TAY, Teletips, and TGR all fill different niches. If FOTAY is great, users will emerge.

TAY's set the bar high. It's an excellent community and resource.

To answer Marcus' question, TAY's course is pretty good. It seems to me that TAY has gotten less positive, mostly Random Tracks, but the core isn't altered. The backcountry community is changing, so it's reasonable to assume that TAY will change somewhat. A simple, transparent, and enforced moderation policy (even if it means sending an otherwise good post to the 'spray' forum), may be an unpleasant necessity.

Disagreement is sometimes essential to conversation and hardly something to be stifled. Framing the forum such that trolling isn't fun might not go amiss.

Little thoughts:
* I like the lift-accessed reports as conditions updates. * Among many, Mad_Dog, Zap, and Amar make excellent points.

For a while I would post on this site - and over the years I've gone away and come back to the site.  I find it an effective gathering place for backcountry skiers in the area, bringing people together both virtually and up on the slopes.  Perhaps one of the best examples of this is the very touching remembrance of Monika Johnson.

However, a more negative aspect has shown its face over the years - which for me was reason enough to move on.  Even in trail reports there is a ton of criticism of how people ski, choices made, or even what car or truck they drive (yes there is really an old thread on that!).  I think Scotsman provides the most obvious form or negativity reducing the conversation to labels and rhetoric.

I know some folks thrive on the debate - and I think the "Random Tracks" is a good place for this.  If folks want to debate  - have it be there, with less oversight.   Folks certainly have a choice whether or not they want to enter the fray.  However, I appreciate censorship in responses to trip reports.  Someone is not sharing their experience to get shredded or criticized about a choice.  I recall a thread questioning Lowell posting a photo of himself getting airborne in the backcountry.  Really?!!

I don't like the idea of going to a management-by-committee approach.  I think the site would erode and become far less populated.

But hey, I drive a car.

Bill G

However, a more negative aspect has shown its face over the years - which for me was reason enough to move on.  Even in trail reports there is a ton of criticism of how people ski, choices made, or even what car or truck they drive (yes there is really an old thread on that!).  I think Scotsman provides the most obvious form or negativity reducing the conversation to labels and rhetoric.

I know some folks thrive on the debate - and I think the "Random Tracks" is a good place for this.  If folks want to debate  - have it be there, with less oversight.   Folks certainly have a choice whether or not they want to enter the fray.  However, I appreciate censorship in responses to trip reports.  Someone is not sharing their experience to get shredded or criticized about a choice.  I recall a thread questioning Lowell posting a photo of himself getting airborne in the backcountry.  Really?!!

I don't like the idea of going to a management-by-committee approach.  I think the site would erode and become far less populated.

But hey, I drive a car.
Bill G

I agree with most of what you say, especially where "random tracks" is the place for light debate and not the trip reports.

I also believe part of the negative vibe showing up here on TAY (as one example) is brought on by allowing folks such as "WMC" to post anonymous political content which only ignites the combative flame. People, if they are going to be starting hot topics should be accountable and by allowing anonymous posters such as this provokes negative message postings without accountability. When people post as themselves they are less likely to start trouble IMO. Allowing member names that supposedly represent a group IMO is a bad idea. Everyone should be held accountable for themselves and not be allowed to hide behind a group name.

I agree with most of what you say, especially where "random tracks" is the place for light debate and not the trip reports.

I also believe part of the negative vibe showing up here on TAY (as one example) is brought on by allowing folks such as "WMC" to post anonymous political content which only ignites the combative flame.  People, if they are going to be starting hot topics should be accountable and by allowing anonymous posters such as this provokes negative message postings without accountability.  When people post as themselves they are less likely to start trouble IMO.   Allowing member names that supposedly represent a group IMO is a bad idea.  Everyone should be held accountable for themselves and not be allowed to hide behind a group name.   

Don't forget that the WMC thread started life as a "sticky"( ensuring it was tagged and remained at the top of the menu) by Marcus. An example of the Owner imposing his view based upon his view (presumably and Marcus correct me if I'm wrong)on the merits of the subject ( which... I know.... he can do... it's not in the bye laws etc...). In fairness, after complaints, he did remove the sticky.

Why the reluctance to change it from a Fiefdom to a commune?

Is there a TAY aristocracy or something . Looking more and more like a monarchy to me where the title is passed from one member of the aristocracy to another while the serfs applaud the new King and vie for places ( and the influence )at court based upon their toadying to the King.

It's telling (and a good choice) that Mark does not want to respond to questions framed in this way.  It's because questions posed as analogies to political situations (serfs, North Korea, whatever) are inherently divisive and unconstructive.

So I looked back at some collection of your (Scotsman) posts, and I see funny mix.  A majority are about skiing, and they’re great.  Thoughtful, energetic, they convey the reason we all go outside and then read or post about it on TAY.  Then there’s the stuff, a minority but plenty enough to annoy just about everyone else, where you go into some aspect of political analogies or social statements.  These are total dreck.  

It’s not about whether people agree with your political or social views or not.  It’s about the fact that this just has no place whatsoever on a skiing board.  Choose your political board, from RedState to dKos, and please post that stuff there.  Lots of people to dive into the discourse.  Lots of great arguments to get into.

Skiing!  Boarding!  Snow!  Powder!  Secret Stash!  Great Conditions!  Who’s free on Saturday?  Let’s go!

I agree with Armar regarding using your real names.
Additionally , I think you should have to post your personal e-mail address in your profile like I have always done. That way, you can send people e-mails telling them what you really think without getting into trouble by using the TAY pm system, which as many know, if abused ( threats etc) can be reason for banning.

I am not following Trumpetsailor's example.... I mean Charles's because like Bono, Madonna, Sting, Cher, Oprah etc I have a achieved one name status through the incredible hard work I have done on this site.
thank you
Scotsman
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

As many have stated: thanks to Charles, Marus, Ron etal for providing TAY as vehicle for all comers to explore, expound on and perhaps embrace. I recall some old adage about opinions and armpits, every one having at least two of the three. That said I would offer an arm pit opinion based on Ben Franklin: Moderation in all things, including moderation. I would hope our moderators would save us from male enhancement spam, get rich waxing skis franchises and the like. i would also hope that beyond those types of posts anarchy would reign supreme. Banishment, censorship, and do I daresay editorial license are to be feared as the plague, especially when one purports to have the best interests of the masses at heart. What is my succor may indeed be your poison and quite easily vice the verse. If there be acrimony amongst us, so be it. Words may be wielded with the wit of The Barb or the clumsiness of a mad bomber, time will properly value each.

 It’s about the fact that this just has no place whatsoever on a skiing board.

Sorry Travetine but I disagree. As the population increases and the government remains unwilling to adopt my mandatory, universal, worldwide euthanasia at 75 to decrease the population and save the planet, the topic of skiing  and access and conservation and park expansion and wilderness and corrupt Park Superintendents who sell land to guiding companies and non motorized access and legislative efforts to fine skiers and deny access and lift skiing expansion become entwined politically and socially with the world of skiing and riding. That I choose to use analogies like North Korea rather than CAR like Fibro or Termites like Lowell is my choice. Random Tracks is the discussion part of TAY. As other have said, you don't like it don't read it. What you are proposing is censorship at it's worst and I after reading your posts I would have expected nothing but that from you as you are evidently very far left and I've always found both the extreme left wing AND the extreme right wing like to try and censor others with different views.

Additionally, much of skiing literature and what is written even on this board is linked to religion and the spirituality of the mountains. Thats why I dislike John Muir so much because he was not just a proponent of conservation( not inherently wrong but becomes so when at the expense of humans) but linked his views completely and certainly as he got older used them as an evangelical call for Christianity which I and many atheists like me abhor and feel that many if not all of the world's woes are a result in a belief in God or a supreme being. Just as the God believers post their views on the spiritual revelations they get in the mountains, we disbelievers should be allowed to post our disagreement with that belief which we feel erroneous and an impediment to the advance of humankind.

Thank you.

Scotsman.

Classic...

I look at TAY as if it were a car.   Marcus' car and he is the driver and we all are passengers.   Some in the front seat and some in the back seat and we are all having fun and enjoying the trip because it's where we all wish to go and the TAY car is taking us there and Marcus has not asked any of us for gas money because he is happy to have us along on the trip.   In the back seat and the front seat there are many conversations, interjections and lots of enthusiastic points of view and even arguing and communal joking and poking and making fun and even taking umbrage at what someone said, but we are all "on the bus" or in the car and the car is very sound and runs well and works fine and the driver/owner takes care of it and does the maintenance and I am really happy with the ride and the trip and the car and it's not like we need a new vehicle with a bunch of new drivers.   I like the sound and meaning of "if it ain't broken don't fix it."

I liked this analogy and think it clever.
However.
With only one driver on a long trip, they get tired and fall asleep at the wheel. On a long drive, sharing drivers is good.
Another problem is if you are are arguing and making enthusiastic points and kidding around about stuff that the driver doesn't like..because it's his car,,,he can stop the car and throw you out. The other passengers will then not bring up that subject because they don't want to be throw out of the car either or want a turn at riding shotgun.
The guy riding shotgun is usually the drivers best friend or at least the one he's most comfortable with.
If the driver is male, he won't look at the roadmap because he knows the godamn way ,alright!
When a person is driving a car, people walking across the intersection are jaywalkers... when he's a pedestrian, its the drivers who are encroaching at the intersection.
Every driver is an expert and drives safe and at the perfect speed.... it's all the other drivers that are idiots.

I'm frankly just shocked at this acceptance of being driven and led by a charismatic" benevolent" driver.
The people were bused into Georgetown before they drank the kool-aid.

The people were bused into Georgetown before they drank the kool-aid.

Mmm...kay, yeah. Sure. Drink the kool-aid. Sure. That's what's happening here. Or is it a variant of Godwin's law again with the Jonestown analogy?

Or is it clever irony that that Jonestown was founded out of a temple where it was preached: "those who remained drugged with the opiate of religion had to be brought to enlightenment — socialism"? Perhaps the Liberator has arrived with a solution to the problem of cliquish tribalism. General People's Committee of TAY, anyone?

he can stop the car and throw you out.

so? if you screw up that bad, go find another ride or your own car.

Scotsman, I believe you were asked to moderate at one point. So the driver says, hey wanna help drive, and you say no, I'll just nag from the backseat... Now you're calling for the driver to sell the car?

I really appreciate the ride, and don't care where exactly we go as long as the sun is shining and the snow is deep!

Wow! Thank you Marcus for stirring up all this up. It has been interesting to see how this thread has evolved. TAY is a web site about backcountry skiing. It provides a service for skiers to gain information and exchange ideas amongst each other.  To be a member does not require dues or a subscription, just an agreement to follow the terms of use.

TAY is a privately owned web site and can be moderated in whatever way the owner feels is necessary. As stated before in this thread”if you do not like a post don’t read it”. Same is true with a web site “if you don’t like the website don’t participate”. Better yet, if you think you can do better start your own web site and run it anyway you want.

I understand that some people may feel some type of ownership because of the time and energy they have invested in posting trip reports and commenting on other posts. In the end it is just a bunch of key stroke on a screen with an occasional great picture attached.

Marcus is doing a fine job and many feel that more moderators are a necessity. I wonder if that was the purpose of this thread?

Keep up the good work Marcus!

Is there a TAY aristocracy or something . Looking more and more like a monarchy to me where the title is passed from one member of the aristocracy to another while the serfs applaud the new King and vie for places ( and the influence )at court based upon their toadying to the King.

I'd like to apply for Jester if the position hasn't already been filled.

I'd like to apply for Jester if the position hasn't already been filled.

sorry filled.
As is the Rasputin postion.
As is the Cardinal Richelieu postiton.
I think the positon of King's executioner may still be open and I've heard there are openings in the Inquistion department.

LOVE also means Let Others Visions Exist!

Yes, like the vision of a site where people share and argue, but they maintain respect and civility throughout (and don't mind being nudged back when they stray a bit from that vision). We already have plenty of other visions elsewhere on the web - let this one exist too!

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

I'd like to apply for Jester if the position hasn't already been filled.

I just checked with TAY Human Resources and this position is open.

Yes, like the vision of a site where people share and argue, but they maintain respect and civility throughout (and don't mind being nudged back when they stray a bit from that vision). We already have plenty of other visions elsewhere on the web - let this one exist too!

Respect and civility are subjective and yes I know, you think despite being subjective there is a definable line that denotes what is acceptable.
You can and should establish rules but people will draw their own line as far as respect and civility  and what that means and that line will differ amongst people.
The argument that in that case the majority should be allowed to establish where that line is has validity but you are never going to control what people say and more importantly think on a public website and therefore even though you have established standards, you are always going to have to enforce them and this situation will never change no matter how much you  wish people had the same views and standards as you or the majority.

This is the age of the interweb and global access and you can retreat into your closed world where only people who have the same views on where the lines of civility and respect lie . Many Tayers attack people with different views not just on matters of civility but also when the person is being civil by TAY standards but has a view outside the TAY norm. TAY has become more polarized  in recent years much like the political dialogue between the left and right in this country and across the world.

My new suggestions for TAY... ( At least I'm always offering suggestions and thinking about it))
If you want to remain a public site then toughen up... these issues are never going  to go away( no matter how many Blitz Love posts and group hugs)..only increase... get used to it .
Or.
Make TAY a private website. I am a member of a private skiing website  where new members are referred by existing and it's invitation only. Not saying that's good or bad but at Least you can control who's a member.
OR
Adopt a policy similar to one of those websites for  physically beautiful people where the other members vote off people who they consider not beautiful enough. At TAY you could base it upon how beautiful and positive  and uplifting the persons internet persona is after they have done say 10 posts and then vote 'em off  if they don't meet TAY's standards.

Marcus  - you have your work cut out for you and I applaud the effort.  Thanks for being the voice of moderation!

My suggestions:

1.  Have a Gear Review section with a template form to keep it organized and easily searchable.

2.  Have a Rants and Raves section (just like CraigsList) so people will have an idea of what   
     the comments and tone will be.  It could even be **un-moderated**.  This could solve many issues.

All the powder hound doggies on the site are more than a tribe or a community, we are like a pack of wild furry golden eyed wolves with our hair bristled up at the scent of winter and its storms; we all know without having to think or ponder that we are connected because of snow and that connection is a scent and a feeling that goes a long long way and like a pack or a herd or a flock the universal spirit of nature runs through us and with us and carries us to summits and back.   Our love is shared and like all doggies some of us are tougher, smarter, kinder, more beautiful, more full of wolf's blood than others, but here we all are because of TAY.
There is a world of specific information here that has helped this dog more times than I can say.

I am also a lurker of several years, but decided to weigh in on this subject after following the saga of Monika and this wonderful community in the past month and after reading filbo's insightful and inspiring words.

I am an Oregon backcountry skier and snow camper, although my wife and I have skied Yosemite and the Tetons.  I lead groups of 4-8 to the wilderness 12 months a year.  Many of these people have never done anything like this before in their lives.  Almost without exception, once they go, they always go again.  Before we go, during our trip and once we have returned, I share as many insightful, inspiring and encouraging words as I can.  I just sent filbo's beautiful sentiment to two dozen of my best people.  John Muir is is also another great inspiration.

I see my mission, our mission, is to share this wonderful side of life with as many people as we can.  The more advocates  for the wilderness, the better chance we can protect these cherished places.  John Muir again.  I am a little discouraged by some of the talk I see here from many of the people that have been most helpful and inspiring to me, even if they did not know it.

Who would find such beautiful places and then deliberately hide them from their brothers and sisters?  Not Amar or many others on this site.  How could anyone caught in the transforming grasp of wilderness find the words to speak ill of another that understands this magic?  My friends believe in the magic of the wilderness partly because they see the kinder, more generous, more sharing and more jubiliant person it inspires me to be.

I meet people on the trail today and I write down their email address so I can share photos and stories and invite them on the next trip.  Every once in a while, they throw caution to the wind and come along and new, life-long friendships are cemented. Isn't that what it should really be all about?

This passion (addiction) that we share is too good (and frankly too consuming) to spend time being anything other than happy.

I salute Marcus and everyone else that takes the time to care.  Don't change a thing, Marcus.  Positivity isn't moderated.  It comes from within.

Thank you all for your community and for giving me a listen.