Rise of the Machines

On a tour up at Crystal on Saturday I was surprised to see what looked like multiple sets of boot tracks right up the center of the Brain Damage chute leading to the top of Silver King. Than I realized, to my horror, that they were snowmobile tacks. Is it possible? Can those things just drive up 45 degree chutes? If so judgement day must be near.

Ovrthhills,
I regret to inform you that yes it is possible to climb over 45 degree pitches.
As an avid back country skier and a part time sled neck, I can only hope that the "Allmighty" will have a little remorse for my soul

P.S.
They can also "Huck" cliffs...

Oh, struck a nerve.  That's cool and all, and I am not opposed to smart people using sleds and doing some talented tricks.  However, I've got to say that I have seen more stupidity coming from sledders in the last week than I can handle. 

I've had sledders that are really cool tow us in and out of the bc in a pinch.  They've been really friendly and cautious in passing, and have been helpful more than once.  I have some responsible and careful friends who sled that are willing to give me a haul, just because they feel good about it and get to go in different areas they didn't know they could (of course within forest service guidelines).

I've also had a sno-mo blast by me and cross a snowbridge while my partner was on it.  I've watched them cruise up to the crater on Baker, nearly knocking climbers out of the way to do so on the Easton.  Just this last weekend, a sno-mo "sniped" a slope a few skiers were about to drop into, triggering a significant slide.  I've seen them haul their ridiculous rigs up to the "end" of the road, and then try to get through the snow with their mighty 4WD, just to get stuck and act like it's my fault 'cause I stood there watching in disbelief at their stupidity.

I'm not sure where I'm at on this, but I thought I'd throw in some fish bait to see what other thoughts people have.  Here's a video to stimulate some thoughts...

_{(I'm guessing it's a few bc skiers filming this...judging by the explicit commentary)}

I was once a full time hater of the sled. Now, I think that can be ok, depending upon the driver.
There is no doubt that they should not be on the summit of Baker, was not an issue until the technology improved allow them to go that high and that steep.
Since USFS does not have the resources to enforce this will continue until everyone who owns a sled decides to observe the rules. On Adams this last weekend, there were a number of sledders, all were considerate, perhaps we were lucky.
FYI, in the days before beacons, people used avalanche cords, basically long parachute cords that they trailed behind them. 25 lb test fishing line, when caught in the track of a sled can totally disable it, costing time and money... Just an FYI.

Here is a movie trailer of some snowmobiling. This will give you an idea of what sleds are capable of today...

And a short clip of the trouble sledders can get into riding such terrain...

With all due respect, my earlier comment was not meant to be in the context of disrespect and was only geared towards a bit of humor.
Speaking from both sides of the coin, I can defiantly say that I am embarrassed by the actions that are committed from some of the sledders out there. It appals me when I see a sledder or two that disobey the boundary laws, and on occasion I have been compelled to speak my mind to the clueless.
It seems in general that the majority of the sled population does not understand the concept of why we skiers "Cross Country" all day. Which for me is to be in the solitude of our majestic mountains, be it with friends or alone.
This time of year is a lapse time between the spring skiers and the spring riders(which I mite add are only a select few of the snowmobile community, as the smart ones realize that spring riding is very hard on their machines) And with the advancement of technology on both sides, there are more and more people out there to conflict.
That being said, If I want a wilderness experience I tend to avoid the limited areas that these sledders have access to till the terrain above their access roads are high and dry. In fact I was in the Cascade pass area all Memorial weekend and cant recall hearing one snowmachine. I was a bit upset when a chopper flew by one night, but I assumed that it was a medical evacuation, and let it go

FYI
With the horse power of the new sleds I believe that the fishing line trick will be insufficient... However a touring pole with the quick removal of the basket and some stealthy placement in the snow may due the trick

And to all the awesome TAYers out there, if you ever catch me riding my red steed to access the goods just throw your thumb up and I will throw ya a tow

~Jeff

Here is a picture of the King from the top of REX on Sunday afternoon.  I was pretty surprised to see the tracks on there.

I am all for snowmachines towing me and my ski buddies up snowed in FS roads where cars travel in the summer and even highpointing slopes in areas where the roar of long haul trucks fills the air. But Brain Damage. I skied at Crystal for thirty years before  attempting that iconic chute.  I  realize the world is changing and what was once sacred becomes irrelevant and limits are pushed.  I just think of machines as means ends not ends in themselves.  Then again, I have ridden helicopters and snowcats to access ski slopes and ride lifts. And there probably will be a lift to the top of the King in the not to distant future.  Access is the key to our sport.  So, ride on everyone just respect boundaries, real and imaginary.

 Access is the key to our sport.

Michael, I am with you completely on the damage machines do to the wildernness experience and the soul---until you shrugged your shoulders.
If a cable to the top of the King is coming, then why not guided heli-tours from Rainier's summit, Sno-Cats into the Wallowas, or a quad to the top of the Space Needle? I'll wager there are humans who have thought of all of these propositions. $6 a gallon for gas will end the snomo issue, so why wait that long?
Hold the line against "the banality of evil"!
Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Michael, I am with you completely on the damage machines do to the wilderness experience and the soul---until you shrugged your shoulders.
If a cable to the top of the King is coming, then why not guided heli-tours from Rainier's summit, Sno-Cats into the Wallowas, or a quad to the top of the Space Needle?  I'll wager there are humans who have thought of all of these propositions.  $6 a gallon for gas will end the snomo issue, so why wait that long?
Hold the line against "the banality of evil"!
Thanks so much for your thoughts.   

If you want " wilderness and soul "then go to a place where snomobiles are not allowed like you did this past weekend. There's plenty of space out there and if you can't find a place where snowmobilers ain't allowed or can't get to then you ain't trying very hard.
I agree that snowmobiles in areas where they are not allowed should be vigorously fought against but where they are legal , I have no problem with them as to "each his own" and " live  and let live"

We TAY'ers ( me included)can be such snobbish bunch when it comes to our passion and how "right "our selected mode of snow travel is and sneer upon those who choose a different mode.

"Banality of evil"???
Many of the people I work with are avid recreational snowmobilers. Good hardworking folk who follow the rules, love snowmobiling and are courteous, nice people. Evil, I don't think so.

I have met many discourteous skier's in my travels. People who have endangered me by skiing above me, ran into me, set slides onto me, been noisy, stole my line, messed up my skin track etc.,  so obnoixious behaviour is capable by all, the" evil "snowmobilers and the "righteous" earn your turn" skier's.

As to the thinly veiled suggestion that fishing twine be used to mess up a snowmobiles tracks, imagine if we TAY'ers had come across a post in a sled website where some sledneck was suggesting a way to mess up or break a person's skis or snowboard by leaving stuff in the snow. We would probably be calling for the poster's neck and have a 20 post thread going on about it and how evil it was. Tssk, Tsk Tsk!

Well said Scotty...

Well said, Scotsman (except the "stole my line" passage - it ain't your line until you have skied it!  ;D).

Over the past decade, I've watched as new machines have made their way into previously inaccessible-to-sleds areas, and have always known I've had a choice to move on to plenty of other spots. Seeing their tracks for the first time on any of "our" slopes is always a bitter pill to swallow, but the bitterness is my own creation.

Here is a picture of the King from the top of REX on Sunday afternoon.  I was pretty surprised to see the tracks on there.

Especially since it is illegal to have snowmobiles at Crystal after the season ends, unless you are working there and they use them for maintenance access.
It is irritating when they are buzzing around the Southback and I'm trying to get a little peace tour. I have just avoided that area until the snowmelts near the base so the poachers don't have the easy access. They post signs, but they are ignored.
Real tempting since cell phones are easy to use to call the Forest Ranger who's handing out tickets left and right on the roads and ignoring what is going on in the forest , but I have this insidious feeling that even though it is irritating to me it's not good Karma either.

We TAY'ers ( me included)can be such snobbish bunch when it comes to our passion and how "right "our selected mode of snow travel is and sneer upon those who choose a different mode.

"Banality of evil"???
Many of the people I work with are avid recreational snowmobilers. Good hardworking folk who follow the rules, love snowmobiling and are courteous, nice people. Evil, I don't think so.

I guess what I'm suggesting is more restrictions on motorized traffic in the BC.  Wildness/wilderness is a finite resource in this world, but population and technology are ever-expanding, at least for now.  Folks must be aware that many want to expand snomo and other mechanical access to wilderness areas, national parks, and such.  Should this be allowed?  Even if the riders are nice?  Is someone who opposes more snow machine use in Yellowstone a snob?
As I've said in another string, I'm against ski-lift expansion in general.  Obviously I don't dislike lift skiers---I hang with them all the time, and encourage them to try the backcountry.
And I assume many TAYers know the origin of the expression "banality of evil":  in the Holocaust, courteous, nice PEOPLE contributed, often unknowingly, to an evil INSTITUTION.  And I'm not equating snow machines with genocide, duh, just making a point about society. 
I'm a neat-o guy too, I hope, but I still feel obliged to reduce the weight of my footprint on this wonderful, endangered planet.

It will be interesting to see how the Okanagon-Wenatchee National Forest's proposed travel plan to restrict ALL motorized vehicle use to designated roads/ routes and trails plays out. This would mean no more cross country/over snow travel on forest service lands by snow machines. I think this is a reasonable plan, it would still allow snow machines access to hundreds of miles of groomed and ungroomed designated snow mobile routes. Why should snow machines be treated differently than other motorized user's of Federal Lands? With our thin snow pack here on the eastside, snow machines are not completely benign in terms of damage to underlying soil/vegetation in certain areas.

I would be lying if I said I didn't want a snow machine. For access of course
I Swear I have heard this all before. Possibly last year ??

I guess what I'm suggesting is more restrictions on motorized traffic in the BC.  Wildness/wilderness is a finite resource in this world, but population and technology are ever-expanding, at least for now.  Folks must be aware that many want to expand snomo and other mechanical access to wilderness areas, national parks, and such.  Should this be allowed?  Even if the riders are nice?  Is someone who opposes more snow machine use in Yellowstone a snob?
As I've said in another string, I'm against ski-lift expansion in general.  Obviously I don't dislike lift skiers---I hang with them all the time, and encourage them to try the backcountry.
And I assume many TAYers know the origin of the expression "banality of evil":  in the Holocaust, courteous, nice PEOPLE contributed, often unknowingly, to an evil INSTITUTION.  And I'm not equating snow machines with genocide, duh, just making a point about society. 
I'm a neat-o guy too, I hope, but I still feel obliged to reduce the weight of my footprint on this wonderful, endangered planet.

We go from complaining about snowmobiles to comparing them the to the Nazi's and invoking the Holocaust.?
Gimme a break.
Ridiculous.
Get some perspective!

Invoking a Nazi comparison will never get us anywhere -- that's why these discussions are usually non-starters.  Would we be interested in participating in a discussion where all BC skiers/boarders were described as stinky hippies?

Already in this thread we have several examples of snowmobilers who are just like us -- good folks going out to have a good time.  Granted, they're on a BC ski forum already, but when I read Boot's TRs, or see what Toby's been up to, I love it.  It's all good stuff.  They're usually doing sled accessed touring, so there's more interest for me, granted.  Those are the situations where I think -- "hmmm, they're making 4 stroke sleds these days".

The uneducated fools who high-mark up loaded slopes?  Educate them.  Encourage the same stewardship of the land that most of us try to foster.  That's the best we can do, because it's their land too.

I hate it when I choose the wrong metaphor. I read Telemacks' post and sensed (maybe it was the quotes) that had he had a different phrase available he would have used it, but still, I took a different comparative meaning to it ~ one that every poster here would agree with ~ nobody wants to hear or smell a sled when you're on tour. The rest of his post is quite appreciated ~ what about heli tours on Rainier?

While Marcus's wisdom comes out in the end, I feel that a better fight, for those quick to it, would be against those who would sabotage others with equal rights to the space, where that is in fact the case. The best fight, however, will be the one where the community comes together to effectively lobby for its' interest in the political arena.

But, do you dissagree with Kyle... I don't

With the recent credit card bill passed by Congress and the inclusion by the gun lobby of a clause allowing the carrying of loaded weapons, by the end of the year there could be armed skier's and snowmobilers in our national parks, touring together in Yellowstone at least.. HAHAHAHA

You gotta love this country. ;D ;D

Shoot out at the Easton Glacier :( Yea I know it's not a NP)

There will never be heli-skiing on Mt Rainier so lets get real over what we should fear and be worried about without resorting to hyperbole.

As somebody recently said, ideology without being tempered by pragmatism is just for self-gratification.

and who is this royal "we" that Telemack refers to regarding allowing or not allowing snowmobiler's in Yellowstone.
Snowmobiler's are part of the "we" as well.

Last time I parked in Easton, I rented a sled. I totally spaced on bringing ammo.

But I totally agree ~ you gotta love this country.

There will never be heli-skiing on Mt Rainier so lets get real over what we should fear and be worried about without resorting to hyperbole.

As somebody recently said, ideology without being tempered by pragmatism is just for self-gratification.

and who is this  royal "we" that Telemack refers to regarding allowing  or not allowing snowmobiler's in Yellowstone.
Snowmobiler's are part of the "we" as well.

Boy have I been misunderstood! I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It's probably best if I stop taking part in this string. Cheers to all.

Boy have I been misunderstood!  I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  It's probably best if I stop taking part in this string.  Cheers to all.

Yea, me too, happy touring. Keep safe!

Actually, I was simply alluding to this week's release of the last of the Terminator movies.  Alas, without the main machine who is now presiding over the California train wreck, having turned to the political arena.  It was as much with amazement as disgust that a machine could essentially climb a mountain, which prompted this post.  Certainly there can be no disagreement over the significance of this fact for anyone who climbs ( and skis) mountains.  Nobody wants to climb a peak only to arrive in a parking lot. Once again the technology is outpacing our ability to manage it.

Uh oh, I think this thread jumped the shark a few posts back. Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) has been satisfied.

Especially since it is illegal to have snowmobiles at Crystal after the season ends

Where's that over zealous FS cop when you need him?

Uh oh, I think this thread jumped the shark a few posts back. Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) has been satisfied.

So funny, so true!
thanks for that, I luv it. ;D

yeah, I cracked pretty hard when i read that, maybe moreso because, like, where's the Fonz when you really need him

anyway, you gotta admit, this is one of the more clever thread names to come down the road in a while

and the Shred dude ~ now there's a classy guy I wouldn't mind meeting in the bc or elsewheres ~ as happens with some on occasion, he took an unwarranted rap on the beak, on behalf of his brothers, and came up shaking hands

yeah, you really gotta love this country ~ and then some

Nobody wants to climb a peak only to arrive in a parking lot. Once again the technology is outpacing our ability to manage it.

Ditto. My sentiments exactly.