Snoqualmie summit uphill policy?

New to area, and at the moment looking for safer terrain close to Seattle that I can solo on short notice when some powder shows up (like tomorrow). The runs at the resort not open yet seem like an ideal spot.

I assume we are allowed to skin up and play on the peaks not open, or before 9am?

For future reference, do they have an uphill policy when everything is open?

Thanks!

I don't think anyone cares much when it's closed, aside from control work concerns at Alpental.

When it's open be discrete, keep your group very small, and ascend on the margins of the runs, well out of the way of any downhill skiers. This formula seems to keep anyone from saying anything most of the time.

The popularity of inbounds skinning at Snoqualmie seems to be on the rise. Hopefully if we continue to behave we can maintain this important access.

TAY member 'Gib' for the past few years posts a 'heads-up' message on the board when Alpental is getting close to opening. See the link below for the usual season opener message...

www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi....msg126682#msg126682

The general rule for Alpental is that once that message goes out- its best to not skin up the resort at any time until things shut down in the springtime.

As for the other base areas- mid-week Hyak (Summit East) skinning laps are pretty common when the lifts aren't spinning and I don't think anyone minds.

Checking in with Patrol is always a good idea - I've found that they've always been very accommodating and appreciative when you check in with them first - and especially if you're new to the area, may point you in the best direction to head out that day. I've never had a Patroller say 'no' to uphill - in my experience it's always been 'yes' with advice on where to skin up and where not to.

Thanks Pete for the link to what I said last year (and nice to meet in person this morning)
Not sure I can say it any more clearly than re-gurg of last few posts but in fact - TODAY- is the last day for wide open uphill travel at Alpental.  Forecasted storm will have us out and about tomorrow traveling the ridges, and potentially causing slides.  We need to do work re-establishing the bomb trams and checking mountain coverage for a potential opening next week. 
     The Pass-wide policy summary is that once that day happens (tomorrow) at Alpental.  There is no uphill travel allowed within the permit boundary unless the resort is OPEN for business, YES - OPEN and loading lifts -AND, you must also make pre-hike contact with the patrol so they can try and accommodate your goals and help you choose safest route for us both. Once you have completed your uphill hike - all normal ski area rules still apply, like run closures and our back bowls policy. For getting further afield - even though "technically" you might be skirting along and somewhat through our permit area, we do not preclude you from heading up the South Fork valley towards Source Lake in order to access points beyond our operating area.  ie   Great Scott, The Tooth, Chair Peak, Kaleetan, etc.  But the savvy traveller must be aware that all of the left hand slopes are avalanche prone terrain and may in fact have very happy little triggers riding every feature.  Natural and human triggered slides have often endangered and trashed those commonly used up-valley skin and snowshoe routes.  We ask that you stay trail right when on the groomed return trails and once those peter out you should make your own way rather than following the downhill ski area return tracks.  VERY hazardous high speed (sometimes less-skilled) oncoming traffic will be on those tracks.  There are definitely alternative trail routes that avoid all but the largest slide hazards if you stay valley bottom or even a bit right in key places.  One of these days a good project for a motivated and wise group would be to truly establish the best such winter route and we could all adopt it into habit.  Beyond the waterfall though, slides from the Chair Peak basin are a threat throughout, and Hazard Assessment skills become very important.  Sorry for digression, I could talk about Alpental all day, and all of these policies have been developed in an attempt to keep the resort user from causing harm to the recreationalist, and vice-versa.
      For the rest of the Summit terrain, the rules are quite a bit more lenient.  We do allow uphill travel at all hours, open or closed, at West, Central, and East.  Everyone seems to have their favorite spot but I’m sure it’s EZ to recognize each has it’s own best practice.  We “generally” prefer that any uphill traffic stays well to the side of any run or open slope so as not to encourage collisions with guests, but at West; for example, neither edge contains an appetizing route – so we ask that you choose the least traveled zone and clearly try to avoid becoming a problem.  It should be pointed out that these policies are to facilitate shared use of public lands and not trying to monopolize all the slopes. It should also be clear that the most common primary use of these slopes are for ski area customers sliding downhill.  If you choose to do the opposite and increase the hazard to both you and the traditional users, our legal system might conclude that you could have some increased responsibility towards any potential accident.  In short, if you climb a busy ski run and someone hits you – a “reasonable” judge or jury might conclude the fault lies with you – fair warning.  Our job is to try and protect our guests and still try to allow you reasonable access to the same public land.  I’ll also say that even though quite a lot of Summit Central is actually privately owned, in the interest of making it as simple as possible, we apply the same policy to all across the Summit Slopes – with the above described exceptions at Alpental.  Watch for snow machines, winch grooming cables, and please stay away from the lift machinery, but if we all try to get along I’ll bet we can.
Thanks for listening.  I didn’t know I had that in me!  /Gib

Gib,
Any special policies about canine climbers?

Please no dogs or other pets at the areas when public is also on the hill.  That extends to 24/7, or ALL the time on Nordic trails.  As far as the alpine terrain I'll bet we could manage to ignore when the hills are closed to public operations but as an owner myself, with a dog who goes on all the chairs and slopes -It is absolutely imperative that the owner is 100% in control and attentive enough to clean and manage all feces.  Around the facilities and base areas either leashed or impeccable voice control  -  Easier said than done.  I think for now let's see if we can make that work and not be forced into writing rules of engagement.  As you know one issue can spoil it for everyone.

Hey Gib thanks for weighing in. Do you guys ever take aim at the Phantom (for control work), and if so is there a website that announces your intention?

Yes, that side is our heavy responsibility as well.  Fortunately here in the great NW the snowpack really only forces the issue a time or two a season, or as of late - not for more than a few seasons.  WE go whole hog when we have to bring in the big guns ($tim will like me calling him that!) and we will give absolutely as much advance notice as possible.  Many signs go out and on the day of the show we will have staff onsite at closure points and put signs as far back down valley as the PCT South access road.  There is also a snow phone (thanks for reminder to make sure it's working)  Website has gone off line and we're going to try and get a guru to put that back in mix.  Check out the large info sign in Alpental Main lot on the Snoqualmie Mountain side of lot and if there are more questions after that I will try and respond.

thank you for the dog qualifier, mr. Gibb,
i promise to keep my pooches out of bombs way:-)
here's to a safe and fun year at the country club,
bF

Thanks for all the info!

Man, it would be so cool if we could establish a good uphill track on the right side to avoid the downhill track altogether. Does anyone have any good beta on that? Would that require some illegal alder cutting?

Though I guess I'm assuming that the uphill track would branch off from the cat track portion of the downhill track...and we'd still go up the dog poop littered road from the top of lot 4 ...on the far right side of course...not hand in hand in the middle like is so often the case.

Androolus is on the $$.  Just never seem to have enough time to do it all. But one of the touring fool pro's (Hi Jan!) had the same idea a few years ago and we are continuing work that very thought.  Similar up-track to the second leg of Vertfest Course.  Perhaps up Gala, just outside B-Bowls boundary all the way to the top of Forever Rope in Snake Dance.  At that point you must come back in bounds and only access terrain that is open, like through the gates (and also obviously be part of Gate program). Possibly if everyone played well together that particular path, virtually free from all but extreme avvie hazard could be open and available really often.  I can't see us really being able to do so until we do a full re-vamp on uphill travel policy for Alp with some sort of agreement for those who say they will; and actually will, comply.   Probably a bit of tree work in a few key spots, but the trail could then be well marked and probably used fairly regularly.  Still have some details to work out to make it manageable in any hours outside of operations, but with some creative thought there - maybe we could manage some of that as well.  Thx /G

I think what Androolus is talking about is an alternate uphill track toward Source Lake, climber's right of the Alpy BC exit route. Biggest blocker there is that the high-speed downtrack is almost always pre-trail-broken by yesterday's downhill traffic. Any other route requires uphillers to break a long flat trail, not far from a well-packed route. A signed route, like XC ski trail diamonds, might be enough to get a new tradition going.

A dedicated skinning route following the Vertfest second leg would be super cool, and it'd probably help sell concessions at the ski area base . It would be a far better dawn-patrol route than Hyak. Hard to say if a well-traveled uptrack would be too tempting for rope-duckers; there's a lot of amazing (and lethal, at times) terrain just a rope-duck away.

...or does it? Apparently Alpental was closed for avalanche control work today after 7 feet of new over the last 8 days. Patrol were actively bombing the cliffs when here comes multiple groups skinning up through Felson and lower international. I mean REALLY? Despite charges going off these folks chose to continue up the hill. This kind of behavior is an embarrassment to the back country ski community. Damn lucky no one was hurt.

Apparently some/all are pass holders and they were clipped...

For the season I hope.

...or does it? Apparently Alpental was closed for avalanche control work today after 7 feet of new over the last 8 days. Patrol were actively bombing the cliffs when here comes multiple groups skinning up through Felson and lower international. I mean REALLY? Despite charges going off these folks chose to continue up the hill. This kind of behavior is an embarrassment to the back country ski community. Damn lucky no one was hurt.

Apparently some/all are pass holders and they were clipped...

Is that the extent of the ski area's recourse?  RCW 79A.45.070 appears to apply. The ski area has the USFS lease, and patrollers need to be able to work without worrying about killing anyone below.

Touring into Alpental during control work is like holding a picnic in the middle of a rifle range.

Who wouldn't, from self-interest alone, check in with patrol on a day when substantial control work is almost certain?

Such a choice puts patrollers at risk, delays/compromises the opening of the (awesome) ski area, and makes it hard for ski areas to consider accommodate ski-touring interests.

Edit: Whoops, meant 070, as bfree says. 030 was in the copy-paste buffer.

Misdemeanor per RCW 79A.45.070.

Yep; you're right! Fixed!

Is that the extent of the ski area's recourse?  RCW 79A.45.070 appears to apply. The ski area has the USFS lease, and patrollers need to be able to work without worrying about killing anyone below.

Touring into Alpental during control work is like holding a picnic in the middle of a rifle range.

Who wouldn't, from self-interest alone, check in with patrol on a day when substantial control work is almost certain?

Such a choice puts patrollers at risk, delays/compromises the opening of the (awesome) ski area, and makes it hard for ski areas to consider accommodate ski-touring interests.

Edit: Whoops, meant 070, as bfree says. 030 was in the copy-paste buffer.

Agree on all points...
Pass clipped might be the first shot across the bow.
I am willing to bet that they keep a record of such offenses.
Perhaps there is something beyond for repeat offenders.
If it were Colorado, there would probably be police waiting in the parking lot.

Merry Christmas and Happy holidays everyone, stay safe out there!

It's misdemeanor trespass in WA. Whether or not patrol calls the Sheriff is up to them.

For what it's worth, a couple weeks ago (before the big dumps began) I was skinning up at Summit West when a lift operator called me over and told me I needed to have a lift ticket to skin uphill within the ski area. This was the first I've ever heard of that at Snoqualmie. I did a lot of skinning there last season and was never told this.

The lift operator offered to accompany me to Guest Services to buy a pass. When we got there I talked to the fellow who is in charge of ticket sales and he told me the same thing, that I would need a pass to skin uphill in the ski area if I was planning to ski back down in the ski area. I asked if this was a new policy and he said that, as far as he knew, this had always been the policy.

If anybody knows more about this, I'd be eager to learn more. When I mentioned this to my regular skinning buddies we agreed that we'd be willing to buy something like a Nordic season pass for skinning within the ski area boundaries, but, for myself at least, buying a full-ride alpine lift ticket seems a bit too much.

Never heard of this either. I would happily pay for something like a nordic pass if we could have an official uptrack and unambiguous permission to be there.

Never heard of this either. I would happily pay for something like a nordic pass if we could have an official uptrack and unambiguous permission to be there.

I would rather not be limited to an official uptrack, but instead adhere to the Skiers Responsibility Code, which requires that you remain visible from above and not obstruct a trail. That's what I try to do when I'm skinning.

I asked if this was a new policy and he said that, as far as he knew, this had always been the policy.

Lowell - I had the same experience at Summit West a few years ago so it appears the policy has been in place for some time.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...46.msg14720#msg14720

Lowell - I had the same experience at Summit West a few years ago so it appears the policy has been in place for some time.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...46.msg14720#msg14720

Boyd - that link didn't work for me.

If you do a net search for 'uphill policy' you'll see lots of resorts have them. Some just don't allow it, some allow it before the lifts open (pre-work skinning is very popular in Breckenridge) others require you to buy an uphill ticket or pass.

I searched the Summit's website for skinning and uphill policy and found nada. So if the Summit has a policy it isn't well publicized.

A few years ago I was at little thunder with my kids and some others I was teaching to board when I witnessed a patroller telling people they could not sit or stand on the snow without a pass (they were there to watch friends learn to snowboard). Seemed a bit ridiculous to me, but he made all of those folks leave.

I would rather not be limited to an official uptrack, but instead adhere to the Skiers Responsibility Code, which requires that you remain visible from above and not obstruct a trail. That's what I try to do when I'm skinning.

Of course I would prefer this freedom as well, but I'm not convinced that it's realistic in the long term. My concern is that it leaves a lot of room for the new or negligent to create incidents and bring negative attention to skinners. If someone who doesn't know the terrain starts up a climb and finds that they aren't as clear of downhill skiers as they should be, are they going to promptly get out of the way, descend, and start over somewhere else? Or are they going to try to finish it off because they're already half way up and don't feel like figuring out an alternative? Is there even a good place for them to transition?

This is sort of where we're at now except that the absence of a publicly visible policy keeps many/most people from trying to skin when the resort is running, so incidents are at a minimum. I suspect that if the ski area tomorrow printed a policy saying "skinners are welcome wherever, just be responsible and use your best judgment", there could quickly be a big mess.

Am I being too cynical?

Lowell - I had the same experience at Summit West a few years ago so it appears the policy has been in place for some time.
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...46.msg14720#msg14720

I fixed the URL in my quoting of your post above.

Your older post is from a decade ago, and I'm pretty sure the uphill policy has morphed a couple times since then. There was an easing of the uphill policy two or three years ago, to the extent that ski patrollers would no longer kick you off the hill. That still seems to be the case, but now the lift operators will question you if given the chance.

I seem to recall that there was an uphill policy published on the Summit's safety page a year or two ago, but I don't see any mention of it now:

www.summit-at-snoqualmie.com/mountains/safety

My impression is that the policy is in flux, and it may not be uniformly understood or applied.

To verify my memory, I looked in my "uphill policy" folder and found the following post that I made on CascadeClimbers in January 2014:

cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php.../1118767#Post1118767

Money quote:

My favorite place for skinning workouts is Snoqualmie Summit Central. As of last winter (2012-13) uphill skinning was allowed there, but the ski patrol requires that you stay out of the way of downhill skiers. That means skinning on the edges of runs or even in the woods if there is a tight or low-visibility spot. If you go, please keep out of trouble so you don't mess things up for the rest of us.

I was not aware of any requirement for lift tickets during those years.

At the time of my CC.com post, the following web pages contained policies that permitted uphill travel, with some restrictions:

www.stevenspass.com/site/mountain/safety/uphill-policy
www.summitatsnoqualmie.com/Mountains/Safety/BC-Policy
crystalmountainresort.com/The-Mountain/Safety/Uphill-Travel
www.missionridge.com/uphill-mountain-policy

The Summit policy has moved to a different page, and it doesn't mention uphill travel. (I think it did before, but I don't have a copy of it):

www.summit-at-snoqualmie.com/mountains/safety