Resort Touring While Lifts Are Running?

On Saturday at Crystal I saw a guy on AT skis (not a patroller) skinning up a run (well past mid-mtn). I know resorts don't care about touring while they closed, but does anyone have experience touring while the lifts are running? I'd always thought resorts really didn't like this (liability, rescue, etc) but?

i have allways wondered about getting up hemi (mt baker ski area) from the bottom of chair 8 on skins too. has anyone done that? i dont really want to buy a lift ticket to ride chair 8 once...

I think it depends on the individual patrollers. I've done it while my kids were lift skiing (skinned up on the very edge of runs, or just inside the trees) at Alpental and Stevens during operating hours, and patrollers on AT gear have skied over and said hi, have a nice day, please stay away from the middle of the run. I tried it at Whistler last year after a day of lift skiing, and they pretty much had a coronary, talking about liability this and liability that (and I thought you couldn't sue anybody in Canada) . . . this was after I had mentioned taking a couple of laps on my light gear to Bernie, the head of the Whistler patrol and a confirmed Dynafit guy, the afternoon before, who said it sounded OK to him, just stay well off to the side (he wasn't working the day I did it, though). I got around it by repeatedly skinning from the gondola base to the upper Blackcomb parking lot on the pedestrian trail - just for an aerobic workout, anyway.

I've gone up with a group at Crystal to get into Bear Gap. We stayed on the edge of the trail, of course. The ski patrollers were OK with it, although if I remember correctly, they asked us to sign out.<br>

<br>I can't comment on what the Ski Patrol thinks about it but I have seen even snowshoers plodding uphill beneath Chair 8 at Baker. Seems like it's okay with the obvious precautions..

I know Alpental's had an issue in the past with people starting from Lot 4 and using the winter/spring route to Source Lake, Tooth Basin etc., which also happens to be the return route out of the Alpental lift serviced backcountry (at least as far as the Great Scott spillout/Source Lake). Arguably that's not even within their permit area, since it's defined backcountry, I'm not sure of the real status.<br><br>At first I thought Alpental was kind of full of it to try and enforce any kind of restriction like that given the long history of use of that route by non-lift-skiers, but after going in there again as a lift-served I can see their justification in this case. The problem there is the lift serviced BC users are trying to preserve speed on the way out and are totally not expecting oncoming traffic, and there's high potential for head-ons. Visibility is tight, and lots of the users are NOT skiers but are snowboarders or postholers making a thorough mess of what should be a nice packed down traverse out for the paying customers. It's already hard enough to make that traverse on a snowboard without clipping out a bunch of times.<br><br>It's not particularly hard to use the summer trail instead, except that it's sometimes Lot 1 that fills up first and you end up in the lower lot. A little more av exposure too while passing under Phantom Slide, but it's not like the trail is taking you anywhere safer in the long run ... <br><br>On another note, it was a Baker area snocat that assisted with the extraction for Baker av#1, this before the lifts opened and anyone had signed the implicit contact of buying a ticket from Baker. I sure hope this kind of thing won't open any kind of liability or rescue policy can of worms. To my mind, rescuing people in danger, no matter where, should be an any-ship-at-sea situation that lawyers should just stay the hell out of.

Many days when the backcountry conditions have been too risky for me I've yo-yo'd Pan Face at Mt Baker, skinning up the Blueberry Cat Track during operating hours.<br><br>There is one spot where I detour around through the woods to avoid a blind spot where people moving down the track would not have enough time to avoid me if they were going fast enough.<br><br>I stay to the far right the rest of the route and have been passed by lots of patrollers without a word from them. I take this as an OK by them.

Skinned up the edge of the perimeter (west run) at Loup Loup a couple of years back while the chairs were running and it was pretty busy. Nobody said a word to us. They probably thought we were nuts (we hit so many rocks on the backside of Bear Mtn. that day). But hey, what else is there to do when you're staying in that neck of the woods?

I've never had any trouble touring up Quicksilver (C-4) at Crystal Mountain. I just keep to the sides. Sometimes the patrollers stop to make sure I'm aware of avalanche conditions.<br><br>Several years ago, a Mission Ridge ski patroller kicked me off their run as I was touring uphill with my son in a backpack. He said I couldn't do that in the area. So, I headed for the woods, stayed just off the ski runs, and went up anyway.<br><br>Another time, I hauled a kiddie sled with my son from Snoqualmie Summit up the ski runs and along the divide to Ski Acres. My wife was along too. Our objective was Surveyor Lake. A Ski Acres (Summit Central) ski patroller stopped us just as we were about to enter the woods at the top of Bonanza and told us we were not allowed to tour in the ski area.  He even had the incredibly bad judgement to suggest that we return to Snoqualmie Summit outside the ski area boundary (by bushwacking through the forest, I guess).  I got angry and told him his suggestion was more dangerous than the way we came and he consented to allowing us to return via the packed trails. We completed our tour.<br><br>Your mileage may vary.

<br>i got chewed out and nearly turned around for skinning at the edge of the run at summit east (heading to mt catherine). first set of patrollers said to be sure to stay at the edge, the second set caught us on the cat track traversing to summit central, and we got a talking to about how they spend the money to groom the track that we use for free, they wanted to turn us around, had to talk our way out of it and promise we won't do it again...

<br>... I have seen even snowshoers plodding uphill beneath Chair 8 at Baker...

<br><br>That would be Duncan. ;D He has kind of a special status, being the manager and all.<br><br>That aside, Baker has no problem with this, so along as you do not get in the way of the paid skiers.<br>

ema,<br>I applaud you for sticking to your guns with the "ski patrollers" at Hyak. It needs to be said that a number of that group are incredibly misinformed and very vocal. Many of them are property owners at Hyak with elitist/entitlement/control issues. All this from volunteers. Yep, they're not employed by the ski area! Just citizens like you and me. Some citizens are mouthier than others is all. I do see one issue though. Backcountry skiers using the nordic trails behind Hyak (when the nordic center is open, free when closed) are encouraged to purchase a nordic trail pass to support the excellent grooming program. It sure makes the approach to Mt. Catherine easy!

For the mt. catherine approach (and silver mt), I've found that parking at the base of the Silver Fir lift and taking the old mountaineers trail (blue tree blazes) is the best way to go. It is a nice tour that merely crosses a few of the cross-country ski trails and eventually works its way up to nordic pass. From here you can access Catherine or Silver. <br><br>M.V.'s snoqualime bc guide describes the tromp through Hyak, which I've done many times. This always worked for me until I did it once while they were open. I got the same raft of crap from the Ski Patrol as described above. Since then I've tried to get a really early start, or approach from Silver Fir. I hate to broadcast this, but if more people used the old trail it might turn into a really nice (fast) track through the woods. <br><br>This trail isn't a secert btw, it is in at least one of the x-country guides for washington, and I believe the mounty's may have some info on it. Can't remeber, but I think it was part of the old "Patrol Race" course. Lowell, I know we've talked about this? Is this true?

I have gotten a talking to at Mission Ridge once when snowshoe boarding up there.  That one time was in early season when they were actively prepping to open chair 2 for the season.  The reasoning was that I might get hit by a groomer.  It seems to me that if I can't avoid a growling beast lumbering up the hill at 3 mph with a million plus candlepower beaming ahead, I've got bigger issues.  But hey, these are the days of frivolous lawsuits.  Other times when the mountain is being prepped but isn't quite open I just get a "be careful".  Concurring with what Lowell said, it seems like Mission doesn't have a very open mind on this issue, at least in relation to other areas.

I've toured as discretely as possible up Summit Central to access the trail system from just east of the top of the quad. No hassles. I will look for that trail, Silver Fir is nicer terrain than the main area. We did get stopped by the nordic patrol one time after descending from Nordic Pass and hanging out by the warming hut. They were nice, though, after some initial grumbling and it motivated me to buy a season nordic ticket last year. Of course I never used it last season, but Snoq. management are nicely honoring those passes for this year. One attracts more bees with honey than with vinegar. Now I just wish I could see their grooming schedule on line or something, they are open Fri-Sun but I have learned it does not pay to be bright and early if its been icy and you want freshly prep'd set tracks; nothing like re-frozen ruts with death cookies on skinny skis!

This trail isn't a secert btw, it is in at least one of the x-country guides for washington, and I believe the mounty's may have some info on it.  Can't remeber, but I think it was part of the old "Patrol Race" course.  Lowell, I know we've talked about this?  Is this true?

<br><br>No, the Patrol Race began at Lodge Lake, which is west of the Cascade Crest, just over the Beaver Lake pass from Summit West. Weird, huh?<br><br>When the Mounties built their original lodge in 1914, the Snoqualmie Tunnel was just being finished from Rockdale to Hyak. There was no year-round road access to the pass. The best way to get to their lodge in winter was be to de-train at Rockdale and hike. They built their lodge at Lodge Lake, west of the crest. The race started there and stayed west of the crest to Ollalie Meadow. The lodge burned down in 1944, after the race was discontinued.<br>

I hike up to the summit of Hyak quite often and prior to the Nordic Center moving to Hyak I never once had anyone of the patrol say a word. Since then I've had them say something to me now and then and I just replied to them "I'm just hiking up to take photo's" but when I showed them my season pass they would leave me alone. I guess they thought I was nuts to have a season pass and be hiking the hill. Can't take good photo's from the lift....As far as the ski patrol being a bunch of local cabin owners that want to keep outsiders away I really don't see that as being the case. The ones that have yelled at me are not locals from Hyak, that's for sure.

The Hyak to Mt Catherine route with blue diamond blazes is part of the old Cascade Crest Trail. The route also includes the "Common Corridor" on a part of the Nordic Center's groomed trails. This was part of an agreement arrived at by the Mountaineers and Sierra Club when the ski areas developed their stuff up there, according to my old Mountaineers snow trails and ski tours guidebooks. You don't need a trail pass on that section.<br><br>Use it or lose it.

A couple years ago I booted straight up the middle (yes, I know it was stupid) of Skid Road at Crystal to check out conditions mid-mountain before I forked over money for a ticket.<br><br>Not a single person hassled me. I had a couple people stop to ask why I was hiking, but nothing more.<br><br>Last year I met a telemarker riding the Forest Queen lift in order to access Avalanche Basin via skins, as far as I know it was cool with the watchdogs.<br><br>nick

Last March at Whistler I enjoyed touring the inbounds, avalanche mitigated area. To make a good circuit from the top I skied 1500 vert. down the back out of bounds and then followed the locals' skin track back up to the ridge and the inbounds side. Two nice powder runs per circuit. Some locals just skinned up the far (from the lift and crowds) boundary from inbounds to ski the inbounds untracked that remained for the 3 days that I was there. The circuit that I took included a lift ride, and a stop for lunch and hot drinks at the little hut- sort of a European experience. There is also The Singing Pass trail from the bottom if you really want to start hiking or skinning without buying a ticket.<br><br>At Mission Ridge a USFS trail takes off from the parking lot to Clara and Marion Lakes. At the end of the trail is open flat(ish) slope, and going southwest in the open leads to near the top of Mission Ridge ski area. It is a pretty ski tour, there are lots of openings and big Larch trees (Wenatchee Mtns country!). There are open short slopes up high with that sweet Wenatchee Mtns snow to ski. It is not a lot of great turns, just short pitches but a nice skitour (otherwise I would not talk about it!).<br><br>At Stevens Pass the DOT has a snowcat road that takes off from the highest lot and through the cabins (eg Mountaineers) and out of bounds of the ski area to above the ski area. The road now is overrun with boarders ducking out of bounds. Up high are some slopes to ski. The DOT puts up closure signs up high at Grace Lakes for the artillery impact zones. They drive up there so they can set out big bombs in the top of the Old Faithful avalanche path. And there is the packed road to the microwave tower on the north side of Hwy 2. One could also go through the base area and angle up to the PCT (crosses Big Chief) and follow it through the forest to the ridgecrest, crossing a few less used ungroomed runs up at Tye Mill.<br><br>There are good opportunities to ski tour up near ski areas if one does not want to even buy a single ride. When I want to tour, the last thing I want to see and hear are a lot of other people and activities, so I wonder why one wants to skin up a busy ski area in operation. <br><br>I question the attitude about being questioned in regard to skinning up in an operating ski area. That (US) area operates under USFS permit and the area and skiers are subject to WA state law in regard to ski areas. The ski area skiers are also owners of our public land, and have additionally paid for the service of lift served skiing. The paying ski area customers have the right to expect safe skiing, and if you interfere with that as an unpaid uphill skier you may be at fault in regard to several aspects of the law. <br>

During last year's wonderful in-bounds ski season, I skinned up Summit Central a few times while my son was in ski lessons. No comments from the patrollers - lucky for them.....and I'm also a season pass holder. <br><br>In-bounds you don't necessarily need to worry about getting taken out by an avalanche as much as the other skiers.....for this reason I made sure I was off to the side and aware of what was coming downhill. I figure if I do this rather than zig-zag up the center of a run everyone will leave me alone.

This is a timely subject. I was approached two times Saturday morning by Summit West ski patrol staff. I was skinning up the slopes before the lifts opened (to the public) trying to get a quick run in to shake down some new skis. A ski patrol member initially approached me on his pre-opening hill sweep. I was told there was a new policy this year - no uphill traffic allowed after the area opened. I decided not to worry about it and continued on figuring I would be to the top before the opening bell.<br><br>I was approached a few minutes later by other patrol staff (group of three). They told me they had been asked to see if I had a lift ticket. I said no. They had a slightly different story and indicated that there was new policy this year prohibiting anyone from being within the ski area boundary without a lift ticket. They were quite apologetic about having to challenge me and told me they did not agree with the policy. They even suggested that I might want to make outdoor organizations like the Mountaineers aware of the policy. I did not think to ask, but assume the new policy applies to all Summit areas, including Alpental. <br><br>The closest ski area boundary was the uphill boundary so that is where I headed - and had a great run down. <br><br>I always assumed that Snoq Summit operated, at least in part, on USFS leased land. I am wondering what kind of latitude the leaseholder has with regard to establishment of these kinds of policies, especially when a publicized USFS mission statement is "to provide the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people in the long run." I can understand there may need to be occasional limits for safety reasons, but a total ban on non-ticketed individuals seems a bit over the top.<br>

<br>I always assumed that Snoq Summit operated, at least in part, on USFS leased land. I am wondering what kind of latitude the leaseholder has with regard to establishment of these kinds of policies, especially when a publicized USFS mission statement is "to provide the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people in the long run." I can understand there may need to be occasional limits for safety reasons, but a total ban on non-ticketed individuals seems a bit over the top.<br>

<br><br>Just to play devils advocate here......<br><br>Over on Yellowstone road there are many cabins located on leased USFS land. Would you expect those folks who leased that land to allow you to pitch a tent on the land they leased, or should they have any say if you wanted to go hiking through that same land?<br><br>The Snoqualmie ski areas are a combination of private and leased land. I would assume there might be some liability assumed by the ski area too, if they allowed non-paying folks to hike the slopes. What if a skier ran into someone hiking uphill and was hurt. Could he sue the ski area because they allowed this person to hike the hill? <br><br>I hike the hills myself, but I always try to do so nearest to the boundry if possible. I've seen some folks hike right up the middle of a run, which sometimes can be a pain in the butt for people skiing/boarding downhill and personally I feel that type of ski-area hiking is very inconsiderate to those who have paid for the use of the hill (just my opinion). <br><br>If you are descrete about your hiking, most of the time there won't be an issue. If you hike in a way that says "hey look at me, I'm hiking uphill" then you can expect the snow cops to come looking for you because you may be a hazard to others or even a liability to the ski area.<br>

Over on Yellowstone road there are many cabins located on leased USFS land.  Would you expect those folks who leased that land to allow you to pitch a tent on the land they leased, or should they have any say if you wanted to go hiking through that same land?

<br><br>In Scandinavia there is a tradition called "Everyman's right" ( "Allemansret" ) which holds that you may cross another person's land and even camp for a night as long as you don't damage anything or intrude too much on the landowner's privacy. (My Swedish heart swells with pride at such a progressive notion.)<br><br>Obviously the U.S. is a very different place. But considering that you're talking about leased public land, I don't think the person leasing the land should get too darned proprietary about it.

The Naches Ranger District specifically prohibits "no tresspassing" signs on driveways/access roads to cabins that are privately owned but on FS leased land. They say that the cabin owner does not have the right to limit the public's right to cross over the land areound the cabins. When asked "yeah, but what about vandalism?" they advise cabin owners that if the cabin and surrounding area is kept tidy and in good condition to show obvious pride, use and presence, the vandalism will be significantly reduced if not eliminated.

This is my first post here, but I have been an avid follower for several months.  Just to put in my 2 cents on this whole thing:  I was asked to leave Mission Ridge while snowshoeing up yesterday, 12/14/5, while the mountain was CLOSED.  Not only that, I was told I couldn't ride back down and I would need to walk off the hill.  I've sent an email to Mission asking for their OFFICIAL policy in regards to touring and will post a reply if I recieve one.  Until then my advice is to stay off the slopes of Mission unless the lifts are running and you have purchased a ticket!  &gt;

GreenDragon, please check your PM's

Greendragon. I'd be interested to hear what the ski area's response is. We toured within the ski area last year after the "season" was over. Ski patrol was there that day to assess avy danger and report to NWAC.

Mt Baker has a new policy where they don't want you skinning up the blueberry cat track before the lifts open.<br><br>There was a new sign on the cat track.<br><br>A patroller told us skining up the cat track before opening was ok as long as you leave the area toward table mtn.

i saw that today. i guess its because they do avy control on the slope above the cat track.