Tele boot suggestions

Finally wore out the T2 boots and looking for something versatile for backcountry in the Cascades, some lift skiing, and a Sierra Traverse in the spring. Tried on the T2 Ecos (didn't like), Black Diamond Push (comfy but 4 buckle and beefy), and also looked at the Black Diamond Seeker as a possibility.

Ski a mid fat - crossbows, but likely picking up a powder ski this year as well. Help! Suggestions and experience? You know the drill, also need to hike a bit in summer. Thanks.

My inspector Clouseau instinct tells me that I'm picking up from the clues you provided is that you want a boot that has a little better tour ability than lift use, but needs to be beefy enough to handle driving a bigger ski in the future, or getting your dollars worth out of lift skiing.
It looks like you are on the right track, but maybe are taken back by the weight/bulk issue of the BD Push. The Seeker looks like what you would pick, but it may lack the power you may want for the lift and may not drive a fatter board that you covet.
Like choosing health care plans there seems to be no perfect marriage where it benefits all applications.
I like my possible error in judgment to be on the side of more, but certainly not go overboard on the more thought, like Scotsman and his wide ass...boards. So I would get the slightly beefier addition like say the Push. Because although it weighs a little more it will do all the things you need on the lift and BC. So when things get rough you'll be glad you have the extra Push. Yes, I'll be here all week and tip your waitress well. And it will drive a wider board (like up to 105 waist) when you step up from the Crossbow, get crazy and go into the upper 80's midwaist for a powder board. 
Maybe set your sights on the skis that works for your terrain preference, then go from there.
But based on what I'm reading into this with my own desires, I would push for the Push.
I do not have any experience with the Garmont line since they make a narrow AT boot that fits me, but make a wide tele boot that I swim in. But other tele brethren like the Garmont  boots, but tend to tour on the beefier version to drive their Verdicts. 
FWIW=I have been looking at the binding systems a little more closely since I am convinced that the BDo1-midstiff has too much tip drive to be consistent in BC powder, but kicks ass on liftpack (that's my new word and I'm trademarking it).
Good luck, keep asking questions, even if you don't you'll get cargo ship of direction here.

If the BD shape fits your foot (BD box fit is quite good for most), I think the Seeker or Push would be great for your purposes.
My two cents having skied both (and a BD foot):

Push and Seeker have same bellows stiffness.  The upper boot is a little stiffer on the Push, although I'm not sure you'd notice a slightly stiffer cuff w/tele's.
What you will notice is that the Push is a little taller w/4 buckles, and beefier power strap, so a better "clamp" on the lower leg/more lateral leverage, and better suited to put a fatter ski on edge.
FWIW, my Seeker's were taller, w/a stiffer bellows than my black and grey T1's, which seem to be accepted as "fat" worthy.  Generally, I think the Seeker is pushing its limits at around a 100mm waist, and this guestimation increases in line with the skier's skill level.
Here's the kicker:
Although slightly heavier, I found the Push to tour/hike better.  Why?...  Look at the buckle placement.  The Seeker's middle buckle crosses over the ankle hinge point, so the buckle effectively interferes/stiffens the ankle pivot while in "walk" mode. This is amplified if you are a person who climbs/walks with your buckles tight.  The Push's middle buckles divide the buckle/boot mechanism into separate lower/upper sections, so the boot hinges more freely wether your buckles are tight or not.
  The Seeker is more than enough boot for your current setup, and I think you'll find it much more stiff than your older T2's (I think a good thing) but if the weight/height/cost of the Push doesn't matter, it may be your boot.
Just remember, it's true what people say: "BD liners pack out", so I recommend fitting with your toes a little more cramped than "touching" the fronts.  From experience, I'd rather blow out the fronts of the shells than shim the hell out of a sloppy fit.
"What do I use?":
Customs, of course!  But I'm a member of the "Fat Rockers" club

BTW, according to Scotsman, your skis fall into the "skinny assed retro sticks" category.  :-[, but what does he know?  He's an over the hill jibber ;D

  He's an over the hill jibber ;D

We'll see who's over the hill you callow youth!
When you start whining about how hard teleing is in deep, deep snow this season I'm not going to wait for you anymore! ;D

Thanks for your take on that Kneel.
We skied that foggy day at Crystal when you got those Customs. I think that they still had the tags on them. Are they a stiffer driver than the T-1's? My T-1's are only a couple years old and I think that they really put down the business, but I fit them way to tight to tour on them.

I use a T3 to power my Karhu Guides. I have tried them with my Kailas skis, and they can handle them because of the power of the BD o1 binding.
I think the Seeker would be a good candidate to replace the T3. But that middle buckle is a deal buster-thanks for the insight.
I really noticed that the Switchback binding has a lot more freedom of movement and a better ride in the Powder than the driving force of the o1. The trade off is that the Switchback gives me less confidence and less stability on the liftpack snow. More like the old school days.
As I get older more equipment stability makes up for my lack of power, balance and flexibility like I had in my 20's and 30's.

The two lower buckles on the Push seem so redundant, that it seems like one buckle would have been suffice. Must be a reason for that?
I rarely even buckle the top buckle on my T1's when skiing , even the strap is loose, I like more forward flex and I ski them in walk mode too. So I think the buckle that could be eliminated is the top buckle on a stiff boot.

Thanks. As usual I appear to be slightly (or more) behind the gear advancement curve. But I guess you just get used to what you're skiing in and I found the T2 just fine for lift, Nisqually chute, and things like Vesper.

But true - crossbows are a bit narrow for the steeper and deeper, which I found out while a week in the Wallowas - got taken to serious powder school. So a bit wider ski is also in the works. Like the new touring mode of bindings such as the hammerhead, which I guess helps with a beefer ski.

Joe,
My impression was that the Seeker is just as, or more stiff than my 3 buckle black/gray T1's.  This is not to say that the T1 is not a high quality boot.   They ski great, but I got tired of trying to make them fit my feet (BD's fit great out of the box).
To me, the Scarpa's bellows feels smoother, and the BD feels like it has more leverage (comparing like models).
I find your boot choice/setup interesting:
I skied some older pre-moldable T2's in walk mode for years (now referred to as my "tele slippers"), and when I switched to the T1's I had a realization of the difference between skiing from my ankles and skiing from the front of the boot cuff (more powerful).
As expected, switching to a bigger boot took a little getting used to, but angulating from the boot cuff made the skis more stable underneath me, they tracked parallel much better, and a "bigger" boot allows me to ski more from the hips than from the ankles (less fatigue/more powerful muscles).
Like I mentioned, a more skilled skier (you) can drive more ski with less boot, but if you find any of this intriguing, ... What if a skilled skier like you committed to adjusting to the way of a big boot?...

I think the reason for the fourth buckle is significantly driven by marketing.

And yes, I think the Customs have significantly more leverage than the T1's in the bellows.  (In order to keep up with Scotsman, I have to make up for my lack of skill, right?)

For me, going from T2s to T1s was huge.  I finally felt that, for better or worse, I was in control of events, and while I may still thrash around, that boot power was not the limiting factor.  interestingly I also now ski more neutrally balanced, perhaps because I don't need to loadup the cuff as much to know where the ski is, or perhaps it's just a few more years of experience..  With that thought in mind I think the T2s are too little of a boot (especially if the 2 buckle) for Chamois' crossbows.  I see the choice as whether the day is about meadow skipping or about the down.  That, and fit - who makes the shape that fits your foot.

Joe, as you often do, you've made me get off my mental couch.  the thing about tele boots (as opposed to AT boots) is we ask them to flex in two places.  I've watched my 2 buckle boots 'pooch' out when flexed forward and it seems reasonable to me to have 2 buckles on the forefoot to keep the footbox stable in shape.  Even the 'ankle' buckle can be useful to maintain shape and smooth flexing of the cuff as long as it's not too high.  I'm thinking that the careful use of multiple density/characteristic plastics is an important consideration for this.

About the Spademarks.  I'm wondering how they'd do on an NTN shoe?

bite the bullet and switch to NTN. I'll bet a pair of TX or TX pros will save you 1.5 lbs compared to the BD Push, and the NTN binding weights aren't much heavier than other popular free pivot bindings. I've gone from T3s to T2s to T1s to TXs and now I've picked up a pair of TX pros. The TXs are by far the most comfortable ski boot I've tried. What didn't you like about the T2 ecos?

I've had my 3 buckle T2s for 6 or 7 years.  They're bedroom slipper soft by now and when I picked up a pair of black & grey T1s a couple of years ago I yardsaled all over the place for a day or two until I figured out what I needed to adjust in my stance.  As kneel says, it was all about thinking more about the cuff and less about the ankle.

The T1s offered a huge leap in control and power and I love skiing them, but they're a lot more boot than I need for most backcountry trips.  I use them as an inbounds boot primarily, where pounding moguls and cutting through chopped up powder is more the norm.  

The touring comfort of the T2s (shin-bang and ankle flexibility being the big differences) makes them my bc choice and I've yet to find myself in need of the extra power, though I do have to focus a bit more and can't get sloppy when I'm tired, or the softer boots will make me pay for it.

My T2s are trashed, but the T1s have several years on them.  I'd like to demo the NTNs this year, but until they improve their tour mode and lighten up the binding, I'm probably not going to drop the cash on them.  

*** edit

And of course md2020 shoots some holes in my anti-NTN-purchase program...  dammit.  I really don't need the temptation!

....And of course md2020 shoots some holes in my anti-NTN-purchase program...  dammit.  I really don't need the temptation!

relax, there probably isn't a better all around shoe for the skilled bc artist than a 3 buckle T2.   Unless you bought in to a pair of Scotsmans' tobaggans...    ;D

Heh -- yeah, it's the gear-junky in me that's the problem. I need to do some surgery on my T2s so they'll last me another year or two.

"Unless you bought in to a pair of Scotsmans' tobaggans..."    ;D

:-[

Drifters, Customs, & O1's... What has become of me?

  :-[

Drifters, Customs, & O1's...  What has become of me?

I get you, mate..  I was just sayin' that, IMHO, T2s may be a bit lite for sleds..

  :-[

Drifters, Customs, & O1's...  What has become of me?

Heh... if you ever want someone to validate your purchase, feel free to loan me the Drifters for a day. I love the Insanes...

... And of course md2020 shoots some holes in my anti-NTN-purchase program...  dammit.  I really don't need the temptation!

I gave in to Rotte NTN tempation last season -- only to bust the NTN bindings on day nine (I'm sure the fact that I was hitting jumps in the terrain park had absolutely nothing to do with it) 

But I really like the pair Crispi EVO NTN boots that I got -- so this year I'm experimenting with a pair of NT Bulldogs bindings to see if they  are better able to withstand what one of my kayaking buddies calls "Oakley Test Labs"

Heh... if you ever want someone to validate your purchase, feel free to loan me the Drifters for a day.  I love the Insanes...

I'm like a toboggan pimp.
See here for a good buy on Drifters.
I'd offer him $350
www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202260

What if a skilled skier like you committed to adjusting to the way of a big boot?... (In order to keep up with Scotsman, I have to make up for my lack of skill, right?)

Good points Kneel on the shin pressure, but when I lock in the ski mode the boot is way to forward for my comfort, it actually tires my lower leg quickly. Guess I'm out of a different mold. And I don't think it has more than one locked setting? It would be more helpful when I get in the back seat too.

I don't think you have any problem with keeping up with anyone and your skills are strong.

Joe, as you often do, you've made me get off my mental couch. the thing about tele boots (as opposed to AT boots) is we ask them to flex in two places. I've watched my 2 buckle boots 'pooch' out when flexed forward and it seems reasonable to me to have 2 buckles on the forefoot to keep the footbox stable in shape. Even the 'ankle' buckle can be useful to maintain shape and smooth flexing of the cuff as long as it's not too high. I'm thinking that the careful use of multiple density/characteristic plastics is an important consideration for this.

About the Spademarks. I'm wondering how they'd do on an NTN shoe?

I have the same "Pooching" problem with my Mega-Rides (AT) and they are getting sent to the bench for that. Even after improvising with a stiffer tongue and liner. All the energy that is built up to drive the ski gets reduced to nothing from the boot pooching. When the boot pooches the shovel of my ski starts to wiggle like a shopping cart wheel. It makes sense that the extra buckle may reduce this pooch phenomena. The new AT boot designs that revert to an overlap to reduce the pooch factor may have problems when you do overnighters and try to get your boots on in the morning. Anyway that's AT, were talking tele here.

The Spademarks would have a tough time fitting the NTN boot IMO.
To much material to shave off the boot to get it to fit the plate.
Check out a couple pictures HERE

when I lock in the ski mode the boot is way to forward for my comfort, it actually tires my lower leg quickly. Guess I'm out of a different mold. And I don't think it has more than one locked setting?

T1's should have two forward lean settings.  Both are built into the stock heel block, so no need to fiddle.  Just flip the switch, and, instead of flexing your ankle, extend it.  You should feel the block click into place.
You're right though, the T1's settings felt either too flexed, or too extended, from where I would have preferred.  Just another factor that steered me towards the BD line.

Yup, I just checked mine (four buckle black/grey) and they have a forward lean and a double-forward-extreme lean, which is way too far forward for my taste.

Heh... if you ever want someone to validate your purchase, feel free to loan me the Drifters for a day.  I love the Insanes...

I'm sure we'll cross paths huddled below a windy ridge on a sweet backcountry powder day this season. I'd be happy to let you try 'em for a run, but a whole day?.. A powder day? I'd have the DT's.

Maybe a breakable crust day then.

T1's should have two forward lean settings.  Both are built into the stock heel block, so no need to fiddle.  Just flip the switch, and, instead of flexing your ankle, extend it.  You should feel the block click into place.
You're right though, the T1's settings felt either too flexed, or too extended, from where I would have preferred.  Just another factor that steered me towards the BD line.

Yup, I just checked mine (four buckle black/grey) and they have a forward lean and a double-forward-extreme lean, which is way too far forward for my taste.

It's coming back to me now. It seemed that the upright stance in the T-1 was to "Frankenstein" of a stance and the forward lean was to Racer-X. The compromise was leaving it in walk mode. It does not seem like I have a lot of ankle pivot, and it seems enough when I get in the backseat.

I would like to demo the NTN system before I take the leap. I don't think it's for everybody and it looks like there is a lot of tweaking (finding the right spring set) involved to hone it in. I saw that Oyvind did not like the feel of it and sold off his stuff, but MD20/20 likes it and my buddy Matt, the former national telemark champ is pretty sold on it. I would like for it to work for me, that way I can sell a bunch of stuff off and spend a whole bunch of money on more ski gear

I'm not calling you out Kneel, but I am surprised that the Seeker is as stiff as the T-1. It's three down the list from the stiffest boot BD makes. I'll need to try those on to see the differences, before I can really cast judgment.

It goes back, at least for me on one of the problems of new stiffer tele gear in powder. It's great for ripping around the lift hill when things are cut up and packed, but when I get the new gear in boot deep or more powder the power of the gear wants to drive the tips down especially on the trailing leg. What I would think as being easier has turned into the equivalent of hauling a wheelbarrow of cinder blocks with a semi flat tire down a steep muddy hill. I was thinking of getting softer springs (freeride) for the O1's and Telemack has told me that it improves the ride.
So I guess getting a stiffer flexing boot seems to make no sense in the powder.
Am I off my rocker?

That's been my experience with the T1s, Joe -- they put a lot more pressure on the tip of the ski, especially if you start to get sloppy and spread out your stance. That's why I've stuck with the T2s for backcountry.

That said, I've had great inbounds powder days with the T1s -- if you adapt your stance a bit and focus on pressure down through the foot, breaking the bellows, you can control how much tip pressure the skis get and really tear it up. Super fun. One of my best days two years ago was (after tearing out the bindings on my Insanes), on a rental pair of Anti Pistes. That little bit of tip rocker made me a superhero -- couldn't dive the tip of that inside ski if I wanted to.

Thanks for the tip Marcus.
Yeah a little embarrassing to be able to rip around on nearly anything, but get to the powder and I'm using my poles like outriggers to maintain my stance.

Slight rocker tele ski hmmmm Anti Piste...KaChing-KaChing again!

I did ski a buddies Hell bents on Tele. Scariest thing I've ever done on skis and I was in awesome boot deep blower pow. There is no back end of that ski so you have to be perfectly centered at all times. Thought I was going to die flying out of control through the trees.

I'm not calling you out Kneel, but I am surprised that the Seeker is as stiff as the T-1. It's three down the list from the stiffest boot BD makes. I'll need to try those on to see the differences, before I can really cast judgment.

It's OK, I went to ron j's school of weasel language and VCR repair.

Exhibit A:

"My impression was that the Seeker is just as, or more stiff than my 3 buckle black/gray T1's."

Counselor, please note that the statement is true fact because it only expresses my "impression" not any scientifically debateable reality.

Furthermore, the comparison is of my three buckle, second hand, "worn in" (I sold 'em to Cass, so I don't want to describe them as "worn out") T1's.
As far as them being 3 down on BD's hierarchy of burliness;
Remember:
-the Seeker has the same bellows stiffness rating from BD as the Push
-Scarpa's slogan: "No place too far"
-BD's slogan: "It's all about the down"

Tips diving with modern tele gear? ???

I'm anxious to see if the Customs can submerge 151mm's ;D

Tips diving with modern tele gear? ???

Why is that surprising?

Am I off my rocker?

Yes, you walk uphill for an hour for all of 45 seconds of skiing don't you?

The defense rests, Your Honor.

Tips diving with modern tele gear? ???

I'm anxious to see if the Customs can submerge 151mm's ;D

What can I say? Not quite the superhuman that you thought I was huh?
I guess Michael Jordan and I share the same weakness ...OLD AGE. ;D

About the Customs and the 151's...
...it's a bit like trying to use a 4x4 post to submerge Rosie O'Donnell in tub of whip cream.

.
...it's a bit like trying to use a 4x4 post to submerge Rosie O'Donnell in tub of whip cream.

Eeeeew! Well thanks for that visual image Joeda! I just ate as well.