- Posts: 511
- Thank you received: 8
12-21-17 Paradise telemetry
- Gary Vogt
- [vogtski]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Premium Member
www.nwac.us/weatherdata/paradise/now/
I've heard of climate data disappearing lately, but this seems a strange new type of 'alternative facts'
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- davidG
- [davidG]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 764
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- RonL
- [RonL]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 259
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Andrew Carey
- [acarey]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 912
- Thank you received: 0
On Friday. Dec. 21st. 'Total Snow' on Paradise telemetry dropped from 88" to 59" in one hour on a cold day. The following morning the park issued a press release that the snowplay area opening would be delayed due to "insufficient snow". Traditionally, the minimum snowpack for bulldozing the tube runs is 60". Last year the snowplay opened after Christmas vacation despite 60+" before the holiday period. This morning there is a new header above the telemetry data: "Total snowdepth artificially lowered 30 inches 2pm 12-21"
www.nwac.us/weatherdata/paradise/now/
I've heard of climate data disappearing lately, but this seems a strange new type of 'alternative facts'
The telemetyry headers says total snow was artificially reduced by 30 inches on the 21st. My initial reaction is that this was done a) by accident or b) on purpose because someone accidentally reduced the number of columns in total snow to 2, meaning 99 would be max. Anyway, one can just add 30. As far as snowplay, looking at the photos, it appears that encroaching subalpine firs are growing tall enough to inhibit grooming of the area. IMHO, the park needs to remove some of this young trees before they lose lots of the meadows Paradise is famous for.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- elbe2013
- [elbe2013]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 40
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- elbe2013
- [elbe2013]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 40
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- snojones
- [snojones]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 55
- Thank you received: 0
In fact... they will all want to buy a previously National Park of their own. They are unlikely to want to get their $1000 shoes wet with snow play, so keeping the meadow open is probably a waste of time.Â
Rather than work to keep a meadow open, it would be a better investment of government money to install money machines all over the previous wilderness, so that rich people can freebase money where ever the mood strikes them. They have rights, after all!
Don't worry we will all be very happy in the camps, they will educate us all about "GOD'S WILL".Â
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- ski_photomatt
- [ski_photomatt]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 141
- Thank you received: 0
In all seriousness, this is an automated sensor, right? So someone would have needed to shovel about 2.5 ft of snow away from the weather station. Seems that would still be visible now before the next big storm in a day or two, sounds like an investigation for one of the locals. I suspect the news media would be interested in convincing photographic evidence.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- elbe2013
- [elbe2013]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 40
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Lowell_Skoog
- [Lowell_Skoog]
- Offline
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 1460
- Thank you received: 16
IMHO, the park needs to remove some of this young trees before they lose lots of the meadows Paradise is famous for.
Unlikely to happen, I suspect.
By the time our grandchildren are grown I'm guessing the meadows near Paradise will be gone.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- AlpineRose
- [AlpineRose]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 113
- Thank you received: 0
So, perhaps, will the snow.By the time our grandchildren are grown I'm guessing the meadows near Paradise will be gone.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Gary Vogt
- [vogtski]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 511
- Thank you received: 8
...As far as snowplay, looking at the photos, it appears that encroaching subalpine firs are growing tall enough to inhibit grooming of the area. IMHO, the park needs to remove some of this young trees before they lose lots of the meadows Paradise is famous for.
Park management was aware of forest encroachment into meadows half a century ago. Back in the 60's & into the 70's, there was an annual end-of season event at Paradise with the goal of pulling ten thousand conifer seedlings. It was kind of like a work party / employee picnic with wives & kids & delegations from outlying Districts. The de-veg was packed into burlap sacks and loaded into pickups and Cushman scooters at the nearest paved trail. It ended up at the Kautz utility area, (ie dump/heliport; check it out out on Google Earth).
It seems to me that even with today's increased conifers, there is still room for a scaled-down kids-only sliding area with several short runs side-by side. I'd bet it could be built by hand by volunteers and without the tree damage & hydraulic leaks caused by the Pisten-Bully. Â
www.nps.gov/mora/learn/news/newsreleases.htm
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Andrew Carey
- [acarey]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 912
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- ceog
- [ceog]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 15
- Thank you received: 0
Government Data
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- ski_photomatt
- [ski_photomatt]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 141
- Thank you received: 0
It seems to me that any nefarious acts would be plainly visible at the weather station as someone would have had to walk (or ski!) to the station and shovel a few feet of snow away from the sensor. This should be easily visible until the next significant snow fall, due to arrive Christmas Day. This leaves exactly one day -- tomorrow, Dec 24 -- to investigate.
Any skiers headed to Paradise tomorrow -- or any locals with a vested interest in exposing the corrupt underbelly of the NPS -- take a trip out to the telemetry station and take lots of photos!! The truth needs to be told.
(for the record, I do not have any affiliation with the NPS or NWAC).
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Gary Vogt
- [vogtski]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 511
- Thank you received: 8
Too bad, I find it useful to compare new snow to total snow to judge the amount of settlement.
I hope this is not part of Zinke's anti-science push Â
newrepublic.com/minutes/146390/national-...imate-change-website
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- ceog
- [ceog]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 15
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Amar Andalkar
- [andalkar]
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 635
- Thank you received: 0
Well, I managed to go take a look at the NWAC site the day after Christmas, and started writing a detailed post here with several photos of the site. But it grew long enough that I decided to post it as a separate TR instead:
Dec 26, 2017, Tatoosh & Paradise NWAC Site Visit
[size=small]Panorama of the Paradise NWAC telemetry site. (click for double-size version)[/size]
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Gary Vogt
- [vogtski]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 511
- Thank you received: 8
NPS rank & file employees continue to do a great job for the most part, but also continue to rate their own top-heavy management among the worst in the federal government:
bestplacestowork.org/BPTW/rankings/detail/IN10#tab_category_tbl
www.eenews.net/stories/1060038401
I think the lack of NPS transparency and accountability will likely not improve. The real reason for the Rump administration's large number of federal management vacancies, including NPS Director, is to allow their 'transition' officials from the Heritage Foundation to act as unconfirmed, unseen political commissars enforcing ideological conformity.
Edit to add '24-Hour Snow' on telemetry also not working 12-28, judging by cams and 'Total Precipitation'
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Amar Andalkar
- [andalkar]
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 635
- Thank you received: 0
Thanks for your efforts on this, Amar! I would not have started this thread without the now-gone "artificially lowered 30" telemetry header coinciding with the snowplay delay press release.
...
Edit to add '24-Hour Snow' on telemetry also not working 12-28, judging by cams and 'Total Precipitation'
Yeah, that "artificially lowered" wording was worrisome, and really made it seem as if NWAC thought that someone had dug away 30" of snow. It's definitely an unusual failure mode for that snowdepth sensor to start showing a new (apparently realistic) lower value, instead of just totally random values or zeros that would have been obviously spurious.
As for the 24-hour snowdepth, I think it's working correctly, but it remains partially buried to a depth of 12" in older recent snow since it was last cleared off on December 20. So just subtract 12" to get the approximate new snowfall until someone finally clears it off. As of 9am on December 28, it's currently showing 2" of new snowfall and 0.37" of new precip since yesterday, which seems to be reasonable given temps hovering just below freezing and also roughly matches the new snowfall visible on the webcams. New snowfall might actually be about 3", due to ongoing settlement of the old 12" on the 24-hour snowdepth board.
Northwest Avalanche Center
Paradise, Mt Rainier National Park, Washington
Total snowdepth out 2 pm Dec 21
MM/DD Hour Temp  RH Wind Wind Wind Hour Total 24 Hr Total Solar
     PST   F   %  Avg  Max  Dir Prec. Prec. Snow Snow W/m2
       5400' 5400' 5380' 5380' 5380' 5400' 5400' 5400' 5400' 5380'
12 27Â 1000Â Â 27Â Â 96Â Â 10Â Â 14Â Â 265Â Â Â 0Â Â Â 0Â Â 12Â Â Â Â Â 41
12 27Â 1100Â Â 29Â Â 96Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 261Â Â .01Â Â .01Â Â 12Â Â Â Â Â 81
12 27Â 1200Â Â 30Â Â 97Â Â 13Â Â 19Â Â 262Â Â .01Â Â .02Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â 65
12 27Â 1300Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 13Â Â 18Â Â 263Â Â .03Â Â .05Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â 35
12 27Â 1400Â Â 30Â Â 97Â Â 14Â Â 20Â Â 264Â Â .06Â Â .11Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â 39
12 27Â 1500Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 15Â Â 19Â Â 268Â Â .02Â Â .13Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â 25
12 27Â 1600Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 21Â Â 264Â Â .02Â Â .15Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â 16
12 27Â 1700Â Â 31Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 19Â Â 262Â Â .02Â Â .17Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 1800Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 12Â Â 20Â Â 263Â Â .01Â Â .18Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 1900Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 12Â Â 22Â Â 261Â Â Â 0Â Â .18Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2000Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 265Â Â .01Â Â .19Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2100Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 17Â Â 25Â Â 264Â Â Â 0Â Â .19Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2200Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 16Â Â 23Â Â 266Â Â Â 0Â Â .19Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2300Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 15Â Â 21Â Â 263Â Â .01Â Â .2Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â Â 0Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 14Â Â 24Â Â 260Â Â .03Â Â .23Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 100Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 19Â Â 264Â Â .01Â Â .24Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 200Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 23Â Â 263Â Â .03Â Â .27Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 300Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 12Â Â 20Â Â 262Â Â .01Â Â .28Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 400Â Â 29Â Â 98Â Â 13Â Â 21Â Â 259Â Â .01Â Â .29Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 500Â Â 29Â Â 98Â Â 16Â Â 24Â Â 260Â Â Â 0Â Â .29Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 600Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 15Â Â 23Â Â 261Â Â Â 0Â Â .29Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 700Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 20Â Â 260Â Â Â 0Â Â .29Â Â 13Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 800Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 260Â Â .04Â Â .33Â Â 14Â Â Â Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 900Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 263Â Â .04Â Â .37Â Â 14Â Â Â Â Â 18
Given that forecasts and models indicate 3-5 ft of new snowfall at Paradise over the next 48 hours, that 24-hour snowdepth sensor will be completely buried out of sight by Saturday morning if those predictions come true.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- kamtron
- [kamtron]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 269
- Thank you received: 8
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Amar Andalkar
- [andalkar]
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 635
- Thank you received: 0
Could it be that the sensor measurement drifted up, and someone's at NWAC just added a "subtract 30" to the measurement processing?
No real evidence of that, the readings were fine until the sudden drop on Dec 21, and overall, they are fluctuating wildly since then, not just offset by any fixed amount. See the 7 days of Paradise NWAC data in my TR linked above, which includes all the missing data since NWAC blanked the total snowdepth column on Dec 23.
Or just look at the raw snow sensor data via the NWAC data portal, which shows the current wild fluctuations:
www.nwac.us/data-portal/location/mt-rain...snow_depth&year=2017
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Amar Andalkar
- [andalkar]
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 635
- Thank you received: 0
Northwest Avalanche Center
Paradise, Mt Rainier National Park, Washington
Total snow gage repaired 4 pm Dec 28
MM/DD Hour Temp  RH Wind Wind Wind Hour Total 24 Hr Total Solar
     PST   F   %  Avg  Max  Dir Prec. Prec. Snow Snow W/m2
       5400' 5400' 5380' 5380' 5380' 5400' 5400' 5400' 5400' 5380'
12 27Â 1900Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 12Â Â 22Â Â 261Â Â Â 0Â Â Â 0Â Â 13Â Â 56Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2000Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 265Â Â .01Â Â .01Â Â 13Â Â 57Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2100Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 17Â Â 25Â Â 264Â Â Â 0Â Â .01Â Â 13Â Â 58Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2200Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 16Â Â 23Â Â 266Â Â Â 0Â Â .01Â Â 13Â Â 58Â Â Â 0
12 27Â 2300Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 15Â Â 21Â Â 263Â Â .01Â Â .02Â Â 13Â Â 61Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â Â 0Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 14Â Â 24Â Â 260Â Â .03Â Â .05Â Â 13Â Â 58Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 100Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 19Â Â 264Â Â .01Â Â .06Â Â 13Â Â 57Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 200Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 23Â Â 263Â Â .03Â Â .09Â Â 13Â Â 55Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 300Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 12Â Â 20Â Â 262Â Â .01Â Â .1Â Â 13Â Â 50Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 400Â Â 29Â Â 98Â Â 13Â Â 21Â Â 259Â Â .01Â Â .11Â Â 13Â Â 34Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 500Â Â 29Â Â 98Â Â 16Â Â 24Â Â 260Â Â Â 0Â Â .11Â Â 13Â Â 299Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 600Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 15Â Â 23Â Â 261Â Â Â 0Â Â .11Â Â 13Â Â 58Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 700Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 20Â Â 260Â Â Â 0Â Â .11Â Â 13Â Â 58Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 800Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 260Â Â .04Â Â .15Â Â 14Â Â 299Â Â Â 0
12 28Â Â 900Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 263Â Â .04Â Â .19Â Â 14Â Â 55Â Â 18
12 28Â 1000Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 15Â Â 21Â Â 266Â Â .04Â Â .23Â Â 15Â Â 50Â Â 45
12 28Â 1100Â Â 30Â Â 97Â Â 14Â Â 20Â Â 273Â Â .05Â Â .28Â Â 14Â Â 299Â Â 71
12 28Â 1200Â Â 31Â Â 96Â Â 13Â Â 18Â Â 273Â Â .05Â Â .33Â Â 16Â Â 56Â Â 80
12 28Â 1300Â Â 31Â Â 97Â Â 10Â Â 16Â Â 274Â Â .06Â Â .39Â Â 17Â Â 299Â Â 59
12 28Â 1400Â Â 31Â Â 97Â Â 12Â Â 18Â Â 274Â Â .09Â Â .48Â Â 18Â Â 61Â Â 38
12 28Â 1500Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 15Â Â 23Â Â 278Â Â .07Â Â .55Â Â 18Â Â 299Â Â 20
12 28Â 1600Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 14Â Â 20Â Â 270Â Â .08Â Â .63Â Â 20Â Â 87Â Â Â 8
12 28Â 1700Â Â 30Â Â 98Â Â 13Â Â 21Â Â 270Â Â .09Â Â .72Â Â 21Â Â 88Â Â Â 0
12 28Â 1800Â Â 31Â Â 99Â Â 11Â Â 18Â Â 265Â Â .09Â Â .81Â Â 21Â Â 89Â Â Â 0
Obviously, the 24-hour snowdepth board still wasn't cleared off when the total snowdepth was fixed, not sure why that wasn't done! Unless it was somehow remotely repaired, and did not require an actual onsite visit. Will have to find out the real story from the NWAC folks sometime.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Garth_Ferber
- [Garth_Ferber]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 79
- Thank you received: 0
Long story short the slip causes the sensor readings to be too low. No government conspiracy just gravity.
For this simple fix we were able to get a park employee to go out with pair of vice grips and realign the pole.
Hopefully a regular clearing of the 24 hour board will resume soon.
Maybe we can improve the total snow sensor mount before too long as well.
Thanks, Garth
NW Avalanche Center
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Amar Andalkar
- [andalkar]
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 635
- Thank you received: 0
So what happened to the total snow measurement is that the pole that the electronic sensor is mounted on can slip, since it is mounted in a less than ideal manner (hose clamps) on a non standard tower for us.
Long story short the slip causes the sensor readings to be too low. No government conspiracy just gravity.
For this simple fix we were able to get a park employee to go out with pair of vice grips and realign the pole.
Hopefully a regular clearing of the 24 hour board will resume soon.
Maybe we can improve the total snow sensor mount before too long as well.
Thanks, Garth
NW Avalanche Center
Thanks for the info on what really happened, Garth. Never thought that might be the culprit, and everything about the sensor arm looked ok from a distance when I visited the site 3 days ago. But it's nice to see a stable snowdepth reading once again.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Garth_Ferber
- [Garth_Ferber]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 79
- Thank you received: 0
The readings become uneven because the sensor is no longer pointed vertically at the snow surface but at an angle.
One wouldn't see any problems when skiing by unless you knew exactly what to look for.
The original comment about artificial lowering wasn't the best, it was made before the problem was understood.
Again maybe the mount can be improved in the future to prevent the slip, it has happened before.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.