TTS updates? Field tests, advice...

Looking for more info from those that have used the TTSystem.  It would be most helpful if you could compare TTS to binding set-ups you've used in the past (i.e. torsional stability, activity, learning curve, new stance, rip-out, tip dive, etc.).

Also, anyone know which Dynafit toe pieces one needs to get a hold of (used) to utilize the conversion kit that Wasatch Ski offers?

Thanks.

Seems like there is some interest in reviving this thread (or lack thereof) based on the inquiries/comments in a "wtb dynafit toe pieces" post. There are probably a few more people here using, thinking of using, or have even tried it, who might be willing to share what they've learned.
I've demo-ed the ntn freeride, and haven't found it to be the sh*# for a few reasons including flex feel, weight, tourability, crampon compatibility, durability, lack of second heel riser, and commitment to the boot /binding setup.
With the Freedom, it sounds like they've improved some of those things, but it seems TTS could be a step beyond in all those ways plus a few more. What I'd really like to do is try the Freedom and TTS side by side, both up and down, but I'm not holding my breath until that opportunity presents itself.
A while back some guys were pushing the limits with an ntn front/tech heel system for a one boot, one binding, alpine/tele/ski/tour super combo, but gave up a reliable release with a locked heel (something I'm not willing to even try).  I haven't heard of anyone using the TTS for this, but it seems all the ingredients are there for a lightweight, free pivot tour, adjustable activity, releasable, telemark,A/T, w brakes, and a ski crampon option.  Holy crap!

So, lets talk...
-TTS vs. NTN Freedom
-Feel/ flex of TTS
-Catastrophic release (desired), or unwanted release (not desired) of TTS
-crampon compatibility of TTS
-things you like/dislike about both bindings (I'm only interested in the NTN Freedom)
-What do you guys think about the TTS as a one boot/one binding do it all possibility (both A/T and tele)?
-All other insights and impressions.

I use the TTS and love it.  I released once and went down quicker than you would think possible.   I now ski with the toe locked in tour mode.  I'm sure that detracts from the releasable advantage, but pre-release is scary.  I have never come out in locked mode.  I'll be using the Freedom this winter on my lift access set-up because I'm concerned about the tech toe holding up to the abuse of the ski area, but all of my touring is now on the TTS.

One of the greatest advantages to both systems is no more duck-bill.  I love that.

I find getting in and out of the heel system to be finicky and less convenient than the traditional system that keeps the heel-throw on your boot for both tour and ski.  So far, this irritation hasn't detracted from my support of the system. 

Oh, one more thing,
I slightly botched the location of the heel riser and I have to place the heel-throw under a climbing bail to keep it down, so here is a tip:  Get the riser location right.  It needs to provide enough spring tension to keep your bail down.  It is interesting to note that the bail goes over your heel lug, not in the groove, since the groove has a tech fitting in it.

Finally, on the use of a tech heel;  I have a friend who set up a "franken-tele" system with an NTN front and a tech heel, so he could tele or AT on the same set-up.  It didn't work well.  When in tele mode, the flex of the ski would sometimes result in engaging the heel and holding it down.  This was IRRITATING.  The system got fooled with and fooled with and ultimately discarded.  This might have been a one-time failure, but it was bad enough to kill my desire to look into the combo option.

Mike,
If you don't mind me asking, how would you describe you and your skiing style, as far as aggressiveness, height, weight, preferred terrain?
TTS has testimonies describing concerns of prerelease, that were unfounded after use. Sounds like your experience was different. This is exactly the type of input I'm looking for.
Also, have you (or anyone) used the Freedom? If so, how would you compare it to the Freeride?
Initial reviews sound like it's better at touring, but still doesn't have free pivot and could stand more range of motion.  I'd be interested to know why NTN bindings don't have these features. Is there something about this binding design that prevents them from having full free pivot?
I've read reviews that claim the pivot resistance makes side stepping in tour mode easier (wtf?). Who wants a binding that gives up touring efficiency for better side stepping?!
Thanks.

Surprised to hear you came out skiing, Mike. I've skied my TTS setup pretty hard, including crap-a-licious moguls at Crystal inbounds, with no pre-release.

Kneel, tele-skier (Frank) will give you a full rundown on the NTN tour mode. I've used it (the Freeride, not the Freedom) quite a bit and I only notice the resistance when breaking trail in deep snow. Compared to TTS, it's beastly heavy but more user friendly and less fiddly.

The way NTN achieves its tour mode and holds the boot in the binding means that the retention springs are "mostly unloaded" but still engaged enough to hold the boot to the ski/binding. Their current design makes increased ROM and decreased resistance hard to accomplish, apparently.

For my money, I'd love to try the Freedom. Not as light as the TTS, but the smooth release (and more importantly, maintaining that release while skinning up) would probably be worth it.

Still, TTS is pretty awesome, if you don't mind fiddling with it a bit to get it tuned in.

My kit just arrived and will be mounting tonight. Any hot tips before I drill through the bottom and cross thread the barrels?

Kneel, tele-skier (Frank) will give you a full rundown on the NTN tour mode. 

I have my opinion on NTN's tour mode.... Some say it's great and that they don't notice the slight resistance. I notice it. NTN's tour mode isn't as good as it could be (IMO) It's also a bit heavy, but could easily be skeletonized to lighten it up considerably. (I haven't bothered to do that to mine yet)

I don't have a fully formed opinion of TTS or the freedom binding yet. I think they are both getting their trial by fire this year because there's going to be wider group of skier's skiing them.

I really like how NTN skis, even though it doesn't tour as well as the best touring bindings. I'm done with sprung heel connections on my tele bindings, so I ski NTN regardless of it's less efficient tour mode...

I have my opinion on NTN's tour mode.... Some say it's great and that they don't notice the slight resistance. I notice it.

I'm done with sprung heel connections on my tele bindings, so I ski NTN regardless of it's less efficient tour mode...

I don't agree with tele.skier on the tour mode. At least with my so far limited experience on the freedoms. Tour mode feels effortless to me.
I'm done with the heel connection as well. I'll wait for a binding that uses the tech fittings along with the duckbutt.
Anyway, I took my freedoms out for a test ride on some softened
suncups a while back. Not the best conditions but I got a fair amount of climbing to  try the new tour mode, and also a feel for the downhill, taking into account the bumpy conditions.

Bindings are noticeably lighter on my 176 starlets,
which last season had freerides mounted. I think the skis and bindings are just
at 10.5 lbs or so. The tour mode is nice. I don't feel as much resistance as the
freerides until I get to pivot angels above 30 degrees or so. Kick turns on the
steeper suncupped slopes were so easy. Transitioning into tour mode is also
easy. Flip up release lever and push down with pole. Binding remains in tour
mode. I'll never need to reach down to pull the pink tab.

Downhill feel
seems better than freeride to me, but kind of hard to tell on the bumpy
conditions. I don't need a lot of activity so I'm skiing blue on 1. I don't get
the hingy feel that I didn't like about freeride. Much smoother flex it seems,
maybe because of the ramped toe. I think knee to ski types will like this one
better. Lateral control didn't seem much different than freeride, parallel turns
felt powerful.

a few more comments:

- The screws that come with
freedom are a bit larger dia than the ones for freeride. I tried to drill using
3.6 mm and tap just as I had done with 6 or 7 skis that I had previously drilled
for freerides and I had all kinds of problems. Ruined one of the holes. Thanks
to tele.skier for saving me. I'll try using my 4.1 mm bit next time.

-
It's a little trickier kicking into the freedoms with the ramped toe and what
seems to be a little stronger brake spring. Probably just something to get used
to, but for now I press the brake down with the boot and push forward while
tipping the toe. Slides in easy that way.

- A friend of mine had a lot
of trouble always kicking open the tour lever while downhilling. Not sure how he
does it. Anyway, the freedom has the tour lever kind of recessed between the
sides of the release lever, so this should help.

- I could do without
the double climbing wires, as the short one is not much use to me. Not a big
deal. It's not in the way, and not much weight. The taller one comes up easily
with my pole handle and can be pushed down with my pole basket or handle.

I'm kind of biased, but so far I really like them. I'm anxious to see
how they do in the powder with snow buildup and icing. And hopefully durablility
won't be an issue.

General TTS questions before I make the jump:

How do boot crampons work with the toe bellows?  It seems like the boot flex would destroy the crampon center bar??

and,     Can you mount TTS and a dynafit speed on the same ski? 
I assume one could with Quiver Killers but I'm not familiar with the mounting pattern.

and,    How does this accommodate a ski crampon?
I'm guessing one couldn't get a regular dynafit crampon in there
What about a voile set?


I'm looking for a light skimo setup so crampon compatibility (ski and boot) is a must

Thanks for any help

How do boot crampons work with the toe bellows?  It seems like the boot flex would destroy the crampon center bar??

Boot Crampons work great on my F1's.  Interesting sole degradation issue:  Early in the summer, I adjusted my automatic super-light 10 point aluminum crampons  www.camp-usa.com/products/crampons/tour-350-324.asp  to my new F1's.   By the end of the summer, I had to shorten the connector bar.  You know why?  The sole on my F1's has worn away enough to affect crampon fit!  Anyway, the crampons work great with no issues other than the boot effectively shrinking.  In fact this is one of the main benefits of loosing the duckbill.  The bellows has not affected performance for me (yet).

Man, wouldn't it be nice to have a tele demo day?...
I would totally go for a whole new set up if I could try before I buy.
Don't get me wrong. I like the rigs I have, but lighter, more powerful, no duckbill, one boot for tele and A/T, release,...
The only missing parts are an on-the-fly convertable tele/AT binding with crampon compatibility. It's right around the corner.

Mike, Like I said, everyone has their opinion about how efficient a tour mode needs to be for their preferences. Morgan skinned one lap to the top of debbies gold last year on NTN freerides in standard tour mode and thought that it's tour mode totally sucked (compared to his usual freepivoting switchbacks)

.... but anyway, This seems to be the year that both TTS and NTN freedom will be skied by a lot more skiers, so both the performance limits and the problems will be a known quantity by mid season.

The problem with demo days for both TTS and NTN freedom is that the skier has to swap boots to try the new bindings. The retailer running the demo has to have a large supply of boots in all sizes, plus skis and bindings.  It's a nightmare of labor intensive slopeside work and extensive amounts of gear. **After which, a lot of people will go online and buy the product that they demo'd from the brick and mortar retailer, giving him the expense of the demo, and less profits from it... 

If you saw the Rottefella website last year, they had an NTN freedom demo scheduled for Alpental.... that never happened...  Rottefella really has some manufacturer/distributor communications issues and has changed distributors a few times in a few years... 

TTS, I am less tuned into because neither pair of my NTN boots have tech fittings, but from what I have read, it's not an easy binding to set up for a demo day, given the variety of boot sizes that will be skiing the same skis during the demo. It also has the same issue of needing to mobilize a huge amount of gear to pull off a demo day... so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen...

I would doubt you could rent TTS gear anywhere, but maybe you could rent NTN from Marmot in bellevue. You could call and check.

If you buy TTS or the freedom this year, you have to trust the early reports of how good they are....  Either way, If I had to buy NOW, I would buy boots that have tech fittings in them so I would have the option of either of those bindings with that one pair of boots...

I though I would add a bit more info here on my first weekend with Freedom since Dan (danpeck) asked me.

First my background on skiing is that I'm one of those pinheads from 80s who struggled with skinny skis and leather boots.  Many fun days were spent on Karhu comps and Merrel low-cut boots. Basically this has resulted in my preference on lighter gears, less "active" bindings, and softer lighter boots. I ski mostly backcountry and occasional lifts. Nothing radical, more exploring types with some ski potential.  I feel pretty competent in handling various snow types we have here in the cascades.

Ok, enough about me. On the first day at Baker I skied the Freedom on Vector with three-buckle Scarpa TX. The slope was mostly crusty from rain form prev days with some new mixed. The skis chattered fair amount but the binding hold them solid. A kind of condition, it's nice to have NTN.  More damp skis would have been nicer...  Can't tell any difference from Freeride unless I had them to switch, but certainly made fun skiing.

On Sunday, they were definitely easier to tour "Freedom" after all as I mentioned earlier:

One other thing to mention is that this was my first weekend trying NTN Freedom bindings.  On the lifts Sat, they were just like the Freeride (for my style anyway), but much better for touring due to lighter weight and more ROM (especially w/ high-heels).  However, it did ice up in front of the toe cups needing to chip it away when transitioning from warm south side to cold North side.  Nothing a duct tape can't fix, the aluminum is more prone to icing than SS.  Overall i definitely like the new design, done w/ the old one. More reports on this coming later in the season.

Looking at the binding a small patch of duct tape on a small exposed Al surface in front of the toecup may be sufficient to keep snow freezing up.  Experienced no under-binding snow build up so far on the warmer south side.  Keep fingers crossed.

The Freedom design is far professional. A little like using a fine camera or a nice bike; all the parts are put together tightly w/o excesses. I'm sure they will have some issues, but nothing strikes me wrong at the start.

Oh, one thing I had trouble with is the screws.  I'm using pan-head M5 screws on inserts since the binding has flat base holes.  Instead of lock-tight, I used split-spring washers, but they got loose after a day of lift skiing!  I tighten them with whatever we had, though not quite tight.  They held ok for Sunday, but were a little loose again when i checked at home.  So put some care whatever you end up using, you should certainly epoxy them if not using inserts.

If I'm buying a new NTN this year, I'd definitely get Freedom.  Freeride looks like a prototype to me.  But then I'm not much of a lift skier....

Wow, I need to come over to Random Tracks more often. This is a debate that's been raging in my mind fiercely for the past 3 months. TTS or Freedom? The problem is, as others have noted, that I can't really do a side by side demo. A likely path for me is to do as others, get both. Freedom for the more aggressive resort days, and TTS for the more backcountry, light and fast days.

We need a light at fast tele boot. The F1 works with TTS, but is now discontinued. I fortunately bought the last pair of 26.5 mondo from Scarpa USA's website. Act fast... the F1 is going away and is replaced by the Alien (no flexible bellows), and it is on sale for about $380. So I suppose I've already committed myself to the TTS.

If and when I get the Freedom, I've been considering the TX Pro boot due to it's tech fittings. It is heavier than the F1, but the F1 won't work with NTN I believe.

The next question in my mind is what skis to mount with what? I have a very nice pair of custom skis in the works with Kam and the ski lab. From all you who've been mounting your own skis for a while... how difficult is it to switch out to a different binding once you've already drilled your skis? In this case, would there be any negative effects to the ski in switching between the NTN and TTS?

It sounds like both bindings are good choices. In which case the lighter weight the better--so I lean TTS. But then I worry that perhaps it's a little bit pieced together.

The releasability and lack of the duck bill will be great.

I'll be upgrading from O1's and AXL's--BD Push and Custom boots.

Maybe we should have our own "demo day" or at least we all ski together somewhere and discuss the pros and cons and can see one another's "style" etc. It could be epic.

Getting skis from Kam? Awesome -- I love mine . He puts together a great ski.

I currently have the TTS on those, but found a deal on a pair of Freedoms that I can't pass up, so I'll have both soon. Given the predictable, easy release of the NTN, I'm hoping they'll work well for me for a winter touring ski, in which case I'll save the TTS for a spring/summer setup. We'll see.

I'd be happy to get together for a demo day of some kind in the next month, if folks are interested. I'll have a ski with Freedom (size small) and a ski with TTS. My boots are the Tx, size 25.5.

As far as switching bindings/skis, it's pretty easy if you do the upfront work and put inserts into the skis. You could also work with Kam (if it's not too far gone yet) to build inserts into your custom setup - that's what he did for me.

Advantages of Freedom over the TTS - easy step-in, brakes, more predictable release, easy switch between tour-turn; maybe a more forgiving, less fiddly binding to get used to. TTS wins on weight, ease of touring and super-mega-active-power, if that's what you want. TTS needs longer travel springs, which are in the works -- it's pretty easy to bottom out the springs if you try to, or if you ski low...

Getting skis from Kam?  Awesome -- I love mine .  He puts together a great ski.

I currently have the TTS on those, but found a deal on a pair of Freedoms that I can't pass up, so I'll have both soon.  Given the predictable, easy release of the NTN, I'm hoping they'll work well for me for a winter touring ski, in which case I'll save the TTS for a spring/summer setup.  We'll see.

I'd be happy to get together for a demo day of some kind in the next month, if folks are interested.  I'll have a ski with Freedom (size small) and a ski with TTS.  My boots are the Tx, size 25.5.

As far as switching bindings/skis, it's pretty easy if you do the upfront work and put inserts into the skis.  You could also work with Kam (if it's not too far gone yet) to build inserts into your custom setup - that's what he did for me.

Advantages of Freedom over the TTS - easy step-in, brakes, more predictable release, easy switch between tour-turn; maybe a more forgiving, less fiddly binding to get used to.  TTS wins on weight, ease of touring and super-mega-active-power, if that's what you want.  TTS needs longer travel springs, which are in the works -- it's pretty easy to bottom out the springs if you try to, or if you ski low...

Yes... Kam is the master-craftsman here. Can't wait to get them, but he is still working on them so I might be able to make the tweaks I need. Below is what they look like.

So are you saying that I could possibly put inserts in for both the TTS and Freedom? I'm not familiar with the patterns enough to know whether that might work. As we discussed inserts I was not at a decision yet so we decided, for now, to go without inserts.

I like your idea of using TTS for a spring set up. I'm very curious about the super active feeling. I like active boots and bindings, so I may be quite happy there.

I'll be up at Crystal tomorrow (12/3) if anyone wants to join me!

Nice design - love the red!

I haven't seen the Freedom pattern, but you can probably tweak the TTS mount somewhat to fit it, at least for the rear cable blocks. You could always do it with QuiverKiller inserts after you get the skis, if you're not sure about putting that many holes in the new setup -- Kam and I went back and forth on it and I signed off on the "swiss cheese" risk release form... No problems so far.

That said, I have a spring ski that the TTS will probably just live on and a separate pair of the Kam skis that I'll probably mount with the Freedoms.

The Phantoms are very cool... and I like your decision to give yourself a reminder of how real the mountains are.

I'm edging towards your philosophy here, at least for now. These skis would be my winter ski. More likely dealing with slides and the desire to release. I'd want something more predictably releasable and the freedom isn't heavier than what I'm on now.

Didn't you have an NTN binding in the phantom slide? It seems that someone did and they were glad for the release.

TTS will be the spring and multi day traverse binding perhaps.

Yeah, my NTNs came off easy as pie in the slide -- thankfully. I think the TTS would release even with the toe-lock up (as in tour mode), but subjective testing in my garage makes me think it would be A) more force required than NTN and less reliable. Better than nothing, certainly.

If I was having custom skis made up, I wouldn't have the fabricator install inserts. It's much easier to move your binding location, if you feel your skis handle poorly, if the bindings are only screwed into the ski. Inserts put a much bigger hole in the ski. The chances of getting the mount position correct on a "one of a kind" custom ski is questionable, where as on a production ski, it's a position based on prototype testing. (and even then that location can vary from skier to skier....)

If you screw your bindings on the ski now, and end up liking how they handle, you can always remove the binding and put inserts in the place where the screws were located with no complications because the insert holes are bigger than the screw holes.

As far as any release goes, TTS, or NTN: 

It's the same as a bear attack scenario, you don't have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than the other people you are with.... 

(meaning if the force it takes to release the binding is greater than the force that it takes to break your leg, your skis may come off in an avalanche, but you will probably have a broken leg too....)

Like I said above in this thread, this is the year when both bindings will get a lot more use and the qualites of both bindings will be a know fact by mid season (probably) If you buy in now, you're part of the experiment.

Dan, I'll be @ Crystal tomorrow. Probly the only guy on tele's w orange pants. Holler.
I'm also considering TTS vs. Freedom. Not jumping to purchase yet, but currently leaning towards Freedom/txPro,on something 110-115 underfoot as a one ski quiver.
Yes, yes, yes! I would definitely be in on a do it yourself demo day. Whether I'm able to try others gear or not, I'm sure I'd get some good info from seeing them in action.

As far as any release goes, TTS, or NTN: 

It's the same as a bear attack scenario, you don't have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than the other people you are with.... 

(meaning if the force it takes to release the binding is greater than the force that it takes to break your leg, your skis may come off in an avalanche, but you will probably have a broken leg too....)

I guess that's what I'm getting at with the TTS -- I don't think the force to release is broken leg force, but it felt like it could easily be "soft tissue" force. Obviously a ton of other variables at play here, though.

If you buy in now, you're part of the experiment.

Heck, that's half the fun.

I guess that's what I'm getting at with the TTS -- I don't think the force to release is broken leg force, but it felt like it could easily be "soft tissue" force.  Obviously a ton of other variables at play here, though.

Heck, that's half the fun.

Well Marcus, My only true release on the NTN freeride gave me a sprained ankle that bothered me for an entire year... so as you say there are always variables. My release definately saved me a broken bone. I am certain of that, but I did have a sprain that didn't go away for a very long time....

Skied the TTS yesterday for the first time at Mt. Baker inbounds.

Background:
30 + year telemarker, aggressive skier, 205lbs.

Feedback:

Marcus, you are spot-on. I didn't realize I had such latent musical talent, but by the end of the day I had become a professional fiddler! (Still more to learn I am afraid...)

The heel throws are a twit, plain and simple. Not a show-stopper, but still a pain to deal with on transitions. The power of the binding is undeniable. Turns through the mank were dependable and STRONG. The flex of my F3's took some getting used to, and I kept bottoming out my boots during low turns. I adapted to a higher stance, quicker transitions, and it seems to help.

After waiting for me to adjust and fiddle at the bottom of each run, My friend and former tele skier said, " You've found the perfect binding to replace the Rainey Superloop: All of the hassles and none of the dependability" I understood his frustration, but disagree with his analysis.

Synopsis:The jury is still out long-term, but by the end of the day yesterday the initial frustration was gone, and I was beginning to tap into the potential of the binding. I have no alpine background to speak of, as I just tried Randonee skiing for the first time last year. Having said that, with the little alpine experience I have the TTS let me make alpine turns like my heels were locked down, which I have NEVER been able to do before. I will stay in touch with feedback and expect that as time passes I will have adjusted to the binding and find more to be pleased with than to slander.