Mt Hood's new Howitzer and Newton Creek Access?

Now that Mt Hood Meadows has heavy artillery to combat avalanches, I'm concerned about how that will affect access to Newton Creek Canyon.  MHM has recently started to blast from points afar.  I'm worried that they'll be lobbing shells at Pea Gravel Ridge and beyond leaving BC visitors pretty much helpless.

Does anybody know what the risk is now with regard to the new cannon?  Has MHM addressed or even considered the safety of Newton Creek Canyon users?

In years past, they place a "turn back" sign on the Heather Canyon trail when they're doing avalanche work.  That's a good thing.  I wonder if they might start over-reaching their authority and close all access even in Newton Creek.  If so, I'd like to incite revolt

JJS

In case you haven't seen it, here is a new "feature" of their website:

www.skihood.com/Mountain/Conditions/avalanche.aspx

The new MHM web site feature is basically useless legal stuff. And it's what prompted me to ask my question. I sent an email to the general info email address on their web site asking for specific info on the permit area boundaries. I doubt the bots at MHM will send a reply.

I have to wonder what legal basis MHM has for limiting access to Heather Canyon and anywhere else for that matter. As I understand it, they have a permit to operate a ski area on public land. It's still public land so shouldn't I be allowed access as with any other public land?

Where can I find a copy of the MHMs permit that was granted by the feds?

[Tried to go backcountry skiing yesterday through meadows permit area, was consequently informed by patroler "wes" that no uphill activity (ie. skinning, walking ,snowshoeing or mountaineering) will be allowed in their permit area!! In other words we cannot access the mountains; wyeast slope,white river,coopers spur or the newton drainage from the meadows parking lot without walking all the way around their rope lines.  This new policy is in place to protect us from their avalanche control work and their new big gun. Administration  says the area will only be closed during control work ,however on the hill patrolers tell a different story, that they could be doing remote control work at any time and  therefore backcountry skiers are never  going to be allowed.

Snodog, where were you stopped?  They used to place a sign a little before the bottom of Heather lift.  Was it that point where they stopped you?

Obviously the "permit area" is everywhere up to the Wilderness boundary.  At least that's what they'd have us believe.  I've been there early enough on certain days that I get there before they have a chance to set up their turnaround signs.

The good thing about hand carried charges is that they can make sure visitors are clear first before they throw.  The problem with a howitzer is that they can't check if they're gonna fire from a mile away to the target.  I'm worried the almight dollary which is motivating the use of this gun will endanger wilderness users.

JJS

Your not the only one wondering how this is going to work. I be the sign to stop up hill travel will go up everynight no matter if they plan on bombing or not. Guess get in there early before they can bust you before you hit the woods. What is the fine if you are caught up there? Thier permit area is huge. Why would they need to blast all the way on cooper spur? No one from the resort goes over there.

Yes $$$ ruled this one. This process went fast and as far as I can tell with little public input. But we will see how things work this winter. I plan on testing rules as often as I can.

Well I headed up to Newton for turns on Saturday. We were in the parking lot waiting for the encounter to happen, waiting, waiting, then we saw it. A truck driving towards us at the far end of the parking lot. A guy stepped out and beat around the bush to get a feel if we knew what we were doing, and we do. He asked us what our intended route was, and we told him. He then informed us that meadows does not allow uphill travel with in their permit area and that we had to stay out. He also said that they were doing avi controll that day.
Well we headed into the woods then broke to where the cat track usually is up to the creek where we had to hunt a little bit for a place to cross. breaking trail was hard that day, ok I might be a tad out of shape. We stopped short of the first open slope due to party fitness and grabbed one quick lap before heading out. Not a great day but at least we go out.

Now to the important stuff or maybe just a rant. I forsee them being harda$$ on the up hill traffic for newton. What trouble would one get if caught in their permit area going up hill? I have been checking their web site about the avi controll, and I have not seen a day they did not say they were doing avi controll. As far as I know nothing took place on Saturday. No booming sounds, like what I have heard in the past from hand charges. Meadows states that the howitzer will sound very close to hand charges when they discharge the weapon. So they stated on their web site they were going to be doing avi controll and none took place. I now forsee a potential future problem. BC users checking the web site (or just stop checking) seeing that they are doing avi controll, head up out of the permit area hear nothing then next time take the cat track up just like they use to. I will still make the effort to avoid the permit area for one more trip to see if they are still not blowing smoke. But if the past prevails I will be going back to old access habits. If meadows is going to make the effort to put that information on the web site they should be truthfull. Cause I could see them putting a ski patroll a little further up the trail waiting to bust the uphill traffic.

Newton might become a site of conflict between Meadows and BC users where no one is happy and real problems or real safety hazard develops.

I think a way to head this off is to be upfront and honest about the avi controll in the area. In the end Meadows is the one who the people allow to be there. Not the other way around.

Rant over.

Your encounter with the truck drivin guy is just about what I expected they'd do.

I'm in the process of trying to fugure out if their permit allows them to deny access to everyone. If anyone can point me to the actual text of MHMs permit, I'd be grateful. In the meantime, I'm archiving the MHM's avalanche control warning web page daily. That information can be useful for showing that MHM is acting outside of their permit if it's true.

JJS

johnspeth you are way more organized than I. Did not even think to take actual note of the web page. Glad there are people smarter than I out there

What trouble would one get if caught in their permit area going up hill?

As a former USFS permit holder, I think I can answer this question based on my experience.  We used to call the county sheriff when people would abuse our permit area, as well as contacting the law enforcement rangers for the USFS...they are Federal cops.  Charges brought against people varied from trespassing to disorderly conduct, when they chose to cop an attitude with the sheriff or the Feds.  The permit holder can be liable for what happens in their permit area and has to make reasonable efforts to address safety issues. 

I would try to meet the avy contol guys and ask them (informally) what they would advise.  Barring legal action (or interminable bureaucratic hell with the USFS), you probably won't get the ski area to back down, but perhaps you could form relationships with management or avy control and work out some solution to access.  Good luck!  Without some kind of legal action, you really don't have a leg to stand on.  Otherwise, your just causing problems for guys that have a job to do, and you might get yourselves killed. 

Maybe its time to access these areas from a different point.  Or accept the risk and sneak in...  Or maybe find some Spotted Owls up there!

Question: Are they really using artillery up there, or compressed air Ava-Launchers?

-Burns

Info on Avi Controll at Meadows

I am going to start looking for those spotted owls

As for talking to the Ski Patroll this is where to go but we would need a pattern before a discussion would be effective. Have proof of problem and possible solution before starting that talk. I could not imagin that they would listen to us or anybody at this point in the season.

Here's a better link to MHMs plans for the Howitzer:

www.skihood.com/cs/Blogs/Meadows/Default.aspx?PageIndex=2

JJS

Another thing I have been noticing is that even when they say they are done with the artillery/avalanche controll they still say it is closed to uphill traffic. Why not open it to up hill traffic after they are done? I for one do not use the cat track that far before I break off to the ridge line. I am sure there is precedence for this at other ski resorts.

one more thing. I really like the spell check feature. Not blessed with that talent. Thanks for putting that feature in. Two thumbs up.

I came under heavy fire this afternoon. I was on the ridge opposite of the Heather lift, just on the good side of the wilderness area. At about 12:30 they started firing shots. I imagine that these were hand charges, on their side of the line. But god awmighty, if my flesh didn't turn cold. If they were firing on the pea gravel ridge, I sure as shit hope that the man pulling the lanyard is a sharpshooter, and has read the owners manual.
Interestingly enough, in the morning, as I was coming up the creek there were no postings of any closure. This was roughly 10:00 am. As I was exiting at 3:15 they had 3 signs up as notice.
Does anyone have an idea why they would be blasting midday as opposed to 6am? It had not started to snow when they were blasting.

OK...I'm going to have to play the other side of the coin on this one.  Not to defend MHM, but to defend the  avalanche control folks that work hard to keep ski area slopes safe, and to get a discussion going about avalanche safety, whether it be in a developed ski area or in the backcountry.

“AVALANCHE SAFETY SAVES LIVES”

I am curious though, how many of the folks that commented are avalanche professionals?  What background and experience do you have in controlling a developed ski area?  How many of you have completed a level 1 & 2 avalanche safety course?

John wrote: I'm worried that they'll be lobbing shells at Pea Gravel Ridge and beyond leaving BC visitors pretty much helpless.

The avalanche control professionals will not be “lobbing” shells on Pea Gravel Ridge, if they even decide to control Pea gravel the shells will be strategically placed below the ridge in the starting zones.  Howitzer's hit there targets spot on!  They do not just start lobbing booms.

Keep in mind, (if) Meadows is doing control work, there is a reason, that reason is that there is a considerable or high chance there is a hazard and the snow pack is unstable.  Avalanche control personnel do not go out on any given day and just start 'lobbing' charges.  The use of hand charges and especially Howitzer's is very expensive.  Control work is done when there is a high probability of a given slope sliding.  They spend the money to open up more terrain for their paying customers!

I'm not sure about anyone else but on a high hazard day I usually try and stay out of avalanche terrain.

Northwest wrote:  “I came under heavy fire this afternoon”. This week with all the new snow and wind the avy hazard spiked way up, it does not have to be snowing at the time for the hazard to go up.  I hope you were aware of the hazard?  Did you see any signs of instability?

I urge all of you to go meet a few of the patrollers/avalanche control folks at Meadows, you might just find they might know what they are doing, and just might be nice guys!  And after all, they are skiers too and most of them might just be backcountry skiers as well!

Good news. Somebody's listening. MHM has a public statemement about access to Newton from Heather. This showed up on the MHM website on Sat Dec 27:

"Designated hiking routes are:

1. North Boundary - Turn right at the first Heather Canyon Runout sign to exit the Mt. Hood Meadows / Forest Service permit area towards the Newton drainage. Please do not go further uphill into the Canyon.

2. South Boundary – Proceed along Mitchell Creek boundary accessing along the tree line skiers right of Buttercup Lift (to your left has you climb uphill).

Ask Ski Patrol for additional information."

That's what I call a good neighbor response. Let's hope that it works for everyone!

JJS

OK...I'm going to have to play the other side of the coin on this one.  Not to defend MHM, but to defend the  avalanche control folks that work hard to keep ski area slopes safe, and to get a discussion going about avalanche safety, whether it be in a developed ski area or in the backcountry.

“AVALANCHE SAFETY SAVES LIVES”

(rest snipped)

Bc_skier-

All your points and counterpoints are correct, IMO.  We should consider the Mt Hood Ski Patrol our allies.  I have no doubt they'll be the first to come to our aid in Newton if a tragedy happens there.  Let's not forget that our right to visit Newton should never be restricted because MHM wants to do business.  Our (the BC visitor community) and MHM objectives shouldn't be limited by each other.  BC visitors should be trusted to make the right choices about placing themselves at risk.  I personally like to make that choice.  I don't like MHM to make it for me.  I'll climb anywhere as long as the up-route is safe.  I'll also return in my tracks if I don't like what I see when I get to my planned top.  It's my choice and my right.

My immediate concern is that the ones manning the Howitzer might either be undertrained/unexperienced or, worst yet, just unlucky with a bad shot.  Regardless of how accurate a weapon is on the perfect battlefield, once the projectile leaves the barrel, the trajectory is out of control.  Think about the wind.  It's just not that predictable up there.  That's what I mean about "lobbing".  If you're on the ridge and one comes close, you're at risk.

I think MHM attempted to over-limit access at the advice of lawyers who worry about liability.  I think that MHM and the ski patrol have been lobbied by the BC visitor community to be a good neighbor which led to MHM's latest public statement on Newton access.  It appears they have kept it at the legal limit.  They'd be smart to place signs early and consistently.

JJS

Does anyone have an idea why they would be blasting midday as opposed to 6am? It had not started to snow when they were blasting. 

I can answer that:

One activity of avy control is periodic maintenance, which can happen at any time as long as access is safe.  If entry risk diminishes over the course of the day to an acceptable level, the ski patrol might enter and try to knock down what they can.

Also, I'm sure the Mt Hood Ski Patrol avalanche pros are just that: paid professionals.  The MHM business managers have probably calculated to the steely cold extreme how many ski patrollers to keep on the payroll to meet their double black diamond traffic objectives.  There just isn't a business case that justifies hiring a huge team to keep all that terrain open.  They do it when they can get around to it.

JJS

BC_skier,

This isn't a discussion about back country safety, or knowledge, or conditions. This isn't an attack on ski patrol. What we are talking about is maintaining a transparent relationship between the ski area operations and BC users. And what is a fair compromise between the two parties interested. Thus far, I don't think Meadows has been clear on what they are doing, nor do they have a good policy on how they go about it. I have the impression that they are new to this game.
Which led to my concerns while standing on Pea Gravel ridge. Who is firing at what? I have been around many ski areas, and highway systems where they routinely do control work. The blasts for the most part don't bother me. But when I don't know what they are shooting at, nor when they will be doing it, I become concerned.

And, howitzers do miss.

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20050325/ai_n13468921

Northwest, you are correct, Howitzers do miss...and skiers in ski areas die from avalanches even at Snowbird.

www.jacksonholenews.com/article.php?art_id=4064

MHM has been doing control work since they opened in the 1960's and the understanding of when and where they happen has improved over the years...but, it will never be an exact science.

And, howitzers do miss. 

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20050325/ai_n13468921

Now that's a scary story and it's something like that that worries me about Meadows' use of the weapon.  Here's a quote from the article:

"Most of our firing is done when we cannot see the target," he said. "That's when we have avalanches, when it's storming."

I assumed the Howitzer would be fired only when the target and surroundings are clearly visible.  All gun users are taught that early in life.  I sincerely hope the standard for firing MHM's Howitzer isn't "ready, fire" skipping the "aim" part like UDOT practices.  That's not the kind of thing one should assume when visiting Pea Gravel Ridge.

JJS

Will they be firing on Pea Gravel? I thought the purpose of the new howitzer was to use it to shoot at areas they felt could not be safely accessed otherwise. I don't see any issues safely getting on the ridge.

John,

Howitzers have x / y coordinates pre-calculated during clear weather, then sometimes avy professions shoot during storms when slabs are forming.  In the Northwest you can have days and days of stormy weather when unstable snow packs are forming.  It would defeat the purpose to wait for it to clear.  Their main goal is to open good skiing terrain (IE avy terrain) when the conditions are good. 

I very much doubt they will be controlling Pea Gravel considering – but not always - it is a windward slope.

You might want to consider how many shots from the Howitzer do hit their mark and not take one isolated case and quote it has the norm.  The world is not a perfect place...

Northwest wrote: “The blasts for the most part don't bother me.  But when I don't know what they are shooting at, nor when they will be doing it, I become concerned”.

They will be controlling avalanche terrain within the ski area boundaries when a hazard exists.

Perhaps a little additional clarification re artillery control work, based on my experience:
1) First off, the howitzer operation is usually comprised of a team - a Forest Service snow ranger and one or two avalanche propatrol personnel.  The howitzer is on loan from the Army or National Guard to the Forest Service.  Everyone is trained and experienced, particularly the Forest Service ranger.  Fire routines that have been refined by the military for the last 150 years, and by the Forest Service and Ski areas for the past 50 years, are assiduously adhered to.  This includes posting areas, moving munitions, preparing the howitzer, aiming, loading, firing, cleaning and storing.  Without these procedures, and even sometimes with them, its a business not without risk to those doing the work.  At the very least your head and ears resonate with each blast - not anything you ever want to think about doing with a hangover.
2) Targets are known starting zones, previously identified by snow safety personnel as targetable, and often difficult and unsafe to approach safely on foot or skis by control teams doing hand charge work.  These targets are sighted in, with gun azimuths and elevations, in conditions of good visibility.  These targets are chosen to maximize effect and minimize the risk of overshooting in winds and poor visibility.
3)  Most every area I know of who uses artillery for avalanche control routinely shoot in low visibility conditions - which as has been pointed out is often when avalanche conditions are increasing.  Traveling into a posted identified area when control work is scheduled is downright negligent or worse - less from the risk of being slammed by a 105mm howitzer round than by the danger from an avalanche being initiated.  Often a howitzer or recoilless rifle (same shell) is used when hand charges are not effective.  Because most hand charges are necessarily limited to a 2-6lb charge (because you can't throw a 20 or 30 lb charge very far), artillery rounds both make the job possible and safer for the avalanche technicians on the propatrol, but also make the job significantly safer!
4) As was previously mentioned, avalanche conditions - or more specifically, times at which avalanches may be initiated, change significantly with time, temperature, precipitation, sun, etc.  Often warming temperatures, arriving midday or later, prove a good time to test target slopes with artillery.  In our maritime environment it often takes a significant explosive to trigger a slide.  You wonder, well, if it takes that much of an explosion to trigger the slide, well, wouldn't it be better to just let that snowpack sit?  Yeah maybe at that particular point in time, but a later warming, or even drop in temp, may totally change the stresses and make it go out natural hours or days later.  Check out some of the recent avalanches in Utah where many skiers skied a slope which later released upon a single skier.
5)  The cost of doing control work with artillery is significant.  Not just the per round cost, but the cost of secure storage, cost of training, cost of insuring, etc. etc.  No area decides to incur these costs unless the benefits exceed those costs.  In most case this means opening the area earlier in the day, to say nothing of the inestimable value of saving potential lives, of avalanche technicians, customers and potential rescue parties  Additionally, these artillery rounds are in short supply - lots of need for them in other parts of the world.  I was frankly surprised to learn that the howitzer was even being added to the Meadows avalanche toolbox.
6) Yes, there can be duds - rounds that fail to explode on impact.  You can be sure that if a misfire like that occurs, that the area in question will be closed for some time until the questionable round is found and exploded.  Another reason to heed the posted signs.  Unexploded rounds are another word for skier IED's.

All this being said, I think BC_skier has hit it on the head.  Communications by the area to the BC community, and vice verse, needs to and will improve.  All areas that use artillery establish working relationships with the local BC community.  So keep the dialogue going and you'll find that the new restraints will become accommodating as they can be.  Thanks for reading,
Gerry H

They will be controlling avalanche terrain within the ski area boundaries when a hazard exists.

BC,

Did you mean the PERMIT Area? It seems pretty clear that they will be expanding their control area beyond the ski area boundaries. They are proposing, or have now the permission, to control areas that historically have been used by skiers and climbers.

Perhaps a little additional clarification re artillery control work, based on my experience:

<many good points snipped>

Gerry H

Gerry, you've given us much factual information.  I'm grateful for that.  But the problem I'm having is that your argument is all about MHM.  MHM has a permit to operate the gun.  It's a rather generous permit, IMO, because it apparently gives them license to let their avy control work spill over and restrict Newton users.  Newton Creek is within the wilderness area and, as such, *should* be off limits for avy control target zones.

I'm still not sold on the gun being safely used.  If MHM has the great urge to open Heather and Clark canyons by firing without seeing the target, I don't care how accurate and safely oeprated the gun may be.  Any person on Pea Gravel Ridge near the landing zone and within the wilderness area, mind you, is not going to feel safe.  When you're exposed like that and otherwise safely exposed, the last thing you want is a shell landing near you or even kinda near you.  It's just not right!  Legally permitted or not!

I agree 100% with you on your last statement of communication with with ski area.  The situation is new and developing.  The problem we have is there doesn't seem to be an organization that is speaking with one voice for the BC visitor.

JJS

I ski Meadows when the danger is high and when I take the kid up for practice laps. This is the worst run resort in the West. The people that work at MHM are amazing, friendly and I commend your efforts. This resort never opens terrain until they absolutely have to. They need a cannon as much as I need one at the house. From what I understand they almost don’t even have enough room in Heather canyon to fire the thing in the first place. I’ve counted 25+plus hand charges in 1 day before. How many times in a day are they going to fire this thing? I love sking Pea Gravel but I’ve been driving right by for years going to Pocket or elsewhere just to avoid MHM. Until Drake construction the staunch republican owners of MHM sell or go bankrupt nothing will ever change. I would love nothing more than seeing them loose the permit. I wish they would sell to someone like the owners of Baker but I would even take Powdercorp over these yahoos. No one is safe in the Canyon in my personal opinion as long as these guys are in control of a real cannon!!!!! I hear they plan on knocking snow off Wyeast as high up as 9,000+ feet thats going to be just great for spring skiing. Thanks again Meadows

I agree 100% with you on your last statement of communication with with ski area.  The situation is new and developing.  The problem we have is there doesn't seem to be an organization that is speaking with one voice for the BC visitor.

I'd like to correct my earlier statement above.  There are at least three organizations that are actively advocating for MHM adjacent Mt Hood backcountry visitors.  They are the Crag Law Center (crag.org), the Snowrider Project Oregon (snowriderpdx.wordpress.com), and Friends of Mt Hood (www.friendsofmounthood.org).  Feel free to consult and help these organizations.

Here are some pertinent links on the Newton Creek Canyon access problem and MHM's Howitzer:
snowriderpdx.wordpress.com/?s=howitzer
crag.org/our-work/public-lands/cascade-p...kcountry-recreation/

It's all excellent information!

JJS

Hey Turtle,

I heard they were going to start shooting over at Mt. Adams to kill off Big Foot too...

Direct quote from the Craig Law web site:

"Meadows has agreed that its operational procedure will not allow it to fire the Howitzer in any location at any time when its Shooting Star Lift is open to the public. Meadows will also not fire the Howitzer into or near lower Pea Gravel Ridge, which is an area that backcountry skiers use to access the Newton Canyon backcountry to the North of Meadows’ permit area. To facilitate backcountry use, Meadows has also agreed to place signage in the lower Heather Canyon run-out downstream of the God’s Wall area indicating the point of closure and directing all backcountry Wilderness travelers uphill to the right towards lower Pea Gravel Ridge. The signs will be placed in consideration of backcountry travelers exiting the permit area towards Newton Creek Drainage."

Hey All -

I just found this thread. I work for the Crag Law Center and have been closely involved in tracking the proposal for the howitzer along with others from our office and the Snowrider Project.

We worked closely with Meadows in an effort to ensure continued safe BC access and a communications protocol. The process is new, and its still developing. In the meantime, we are collecting information on BC user experiences. If you have information of conflicts and/or unsafe situations, please visit our web site, grab our contact info and drop us a line. The Snowrider site is also a great place to find information and provide feeback.

Be careful out there and let us know if you want additional information. We're trying to get it out there for folks.

By the way, if you want a copy of MHM's ski are special use permit, call the Hood River Ranger District in Parkdale and ask for Doug Jones. He is the permit administrator for the FS in charge of Mt. Hood Meadows and is the person responsible for answering questions for the public.

- Winter