February 17-18, 2008, Emmons Glacier
2/17/08
6351
18
We have been reaping the rewards of slogging through deep snow most of this winter, but settled snow and a great forcast led us to the possibility of a long glacier trip. Never sure on the north side of Rainier if a shaded aspect will deliver pow or a sunny aspect will deliver corn, but you can usually be certain of solitude in a huge place. Arrived by snowmo at the White River Campground Sunday afternoon. Up early we headed directly up the White River basin under the setting moon. We encountered perfect hiking conditions up the Glacier and with such a beautiful day we picked the sunny aspect as it seemed the snow would soften nicely. Can neither confirm, nor deny the elevation attained ;) , but we earned plenty of turns and were able to ride to within 40yds of our camp. Top turns were on very hard pack, but just got softer and smoother as we descended and the scenery was spectacular.
Rant and road report: This trip was nearly ruined by The Park, who has plowed, as in cut with a snowblower, nearly down to pavement, over 4 miles of Hwy 410 ???. What they have left on the side is a narrow mess of uneven snow and impassable trees; useless and dangerous for recreators of all kinds. Since they give no reason for doing this, I can only presume it's to injure, force, or otherwise discourage we the public from treading on Their Park. As you can tell, I love seeing my hard earned tax dollars wasted. Basically, any trip to this area is out, unless we get another big dump down to 2500'!
Rant and road report: This trip was nearly ruined by The Park, who has plowed, as in cut with a snowblower, nearly down to pavement, over 4 miles of Hwy 410 ???. What they have left on the side is a narrow mess of uneven snow and impassable trees; useless and dangerous for recreators of all kinds. Since they give no reason for doing this, I can only presume it's to injure, force, or otherwise discourage we the public from treading on Their Park. As you can tell, I love seeing my hard earned tax dollars wasted. Basically, any trip to this area is out, unless we get another big dump down to 2500'!
Sure was crowded up there. The seracs and, what appeared to be, medium-sized cat prints, kept us company.
Schu ,that 3rd pic is that MT Ruth ? or ?
yep, another good destination
Boot, email me with a formal, professionally written complaint about the road and how you think we could better handle the situation.
The short answer is DOT plows the road in preparation for spring opening.
The short answer is DOT plows the road in preparation for spring opening.
nice pics boot and schu.
Hey Monica!
Hey Monica!
Plowing the road may suck for those fortunate enough to own a snowmobile but it does allow people to access White River via bike. Personally, if they are going to plow the road down to the asphalt they might as well open up the bare sections to motorists.
T/F: premature road opening would lead to parking/sanitation issues, and cars being left in the way of continuing work.
I'm willing to bet that more of the budget is paid for by people who are looking forward to a conventional, fully-plowed, full-amenities opening, than by the rare skier who is likely never to be satisfied with the state of winter access anyway -- that is until they suck it up and realize that backcountry skiing is not about convenience.
I'm willing to bet that more of the budget is paid for by people who are looking forward to a conventional, fully-plowed, full-amenities opening, than by the rare skier who is likely never to be satisfied with the state of winter access anyway -- that is until they suck it up and realize that backcountry skiing is not about convenience.
I know this is somewhat off of the original topic, but to reply to the previous comment...
The services that National Parks provide should not cater only to who spends the most. If that was the case we would have roads up all sides of Mount Ranier, more big RV campgrounds and fewer trails or winter access.
Unfortunately we all seem to adopt the idea that "you get what you pay for" and the fact is with public lands we all pay (entrance fees are not the only source of revenue for the National Park) and it is important that park administration listen to all users when providing services (which is what Monica seems to be suggesting).
The services that National Parks provide should not cater only to who spends the most. If that was the case we would have roads up all sides of Mount Ranier, more big RV campgrounds and fewer trails or winter access.
Unfortunately we all seem to adopt the idea that "you get what you pay for" and the fact is with public lands we all pay (entrance fees are not the only source of revenue for the National Park) and it is important that park administration listen to all users when providing services (which is what Monica seems to be suggesting).
Earlier this season the NPS repeatedly plowed the Valley & Reflection Lake roads. I was told this was to get a head start on spring opening. The deep cuts drifted back in within a week, so the work was a complete waste of money and taxpayer's precious recreation time. Bulldozers have been used to prematurely open the Paradise Valley road the past couple Springs, leaving a disgraceful mess of hundreds of snapped-off trees. Too bad they can't show the same enthusiam for snow removal on those dozens of days each winter when the Longmire gate opens at 11 with 3" new.
Thanks for the great TR's Boot...keep 'em coming, professionally written or not.
Thanks for the great TR's Boot...keep 'em coming, professionally written or not.
Vogtski: Good point on the waste of time and tax payer money. The Park does some weird things and I think a lot of it has to do with the "this is the way we've always done it" approach and a difficulty to try new approaches. Similar problem with the 410 road.
I posted my TR to share an awesome experience. I posted the rant to warn any others of the current access conditions and to see if some Park Ranger might be lurking and jump in with a reply to my cry for help. Monica stepped up with that and we had a good conversation last night. She is passing the info along and maybe we can work things out to improve that area for all. Go Monica!!
Boot
I posted my TR to share an awesome experience. I posted the rant to warn any others of the current access conditions and to see if some Park Ranger might be lurking and jump in with a reply to my cry for help. Monica stepped up with that and we had a good conversation last night. She is passing the info along and maybe we can work things out to improve that area for all. Go Monica!!
Boot
My opinion:
Doesn't seem this conversation is all that helpful when we set about guessing about people's motives i.e. the Park Service. I have no doubt their goal is to 'serve' the public interest and I also have no doubt that their staff is way too skimpy to acheive that goal even in a modest way: see lack of equipment and manpower to keep Paradise open.
To me it seems that there is PLENTY of MONEY and DESIRE to have increased winter services at Rainier. But to me this will have to require a working relationship between several public agencies. I think the State of Washington should/would have a vested interest in opening up more of the Park more of the year to more visitors. Would the NPS be willing to work with the NFS and other local agencies to open up White River and increase access to Paradise?
Time to stop talking and start doing. Can the NPS forge relationships with more private non-profits? Millions of dollars of man/woman power and moneys poured into the Park this past summer to open up and fix vast miles of trails. Can't a similiar effort of a grassroots nature occur for winter enthusiasts who want to 'fix' and improve the winter access issues?
Goal: Let's find a way to open White River and more agressively keep Paradise open 24/7. (extreme weather events are no-doubt a necessary exception).
Doesn't seem this conversation is all that helpful when we set about guessing about people's motives i.e. the Park Service. I have no doubt their goal is to 'serve' the public interest and I also have no doubt that their staff is way too skimpy to acheive that goal even in a modest way: see lack of equipment and manpower to keep Paradise open.
To me it seems that there is PLENTY of MONEY and DESIRE to have increased winter services at Rainier. But to me this will have to require a working relationship between several public agencies. I think the State of Washington should/would have a vested interest in opening up more of the Park more of the year to more visitors. Would the NPS be willing to work with the NFS and other local agencies to open up White River and increase access to Paradise?
Time to stop talking and start doing. Can the NPS forge relationships with more private non-profits? Millions of dollars of man/woman power and moneys poured into the Park this past summer to open up and fix vast miles of trails. Can't a similiar effort of a grassroots nature occur for winter enthusiasts who want to 'fix' and improve the winter access issues?
Goal: Let's find a way to open White River and more agressively keep Paradise open 24/7. (extreme weather events are no-doubt a necessary exception).
First of all, really good discussion. In regards to Ash_J's comments, believe me, like most TAYer's we suck it up and deal with the winter access inconveniences, which Washington State is very good at dishing up. What we would really like would cost the least amount, just plow the parking area, and leave the road alone through the winter and we would be content. We have regularly cleared downed trees from the roadway, and even though it sometimes takes hours to get over an obstacle we don't mind putting forth the effort. In addition, it is not just the concern of the minority snowmo'ers in this area, it is the x-country skiiers and snowshoe folks who also suffer, everyone we have talked to who utilize the road have said the road conditions suck all around, no matter what mode of transportation. I don't know about any of you but I would much rather ski a snowcovered road than an icy road with pavement showing and 4 foot tunnel walls that may not be easy for many people to maneuver up and down. I also think we all agree that when spring comes, it is sensible to start plowing therefore allowing bike access and eventually vehicles.
The acceptance by many of you regarding the backcountry user utilizing a snowmo is much appreciated. After all, is it all that much different in theory than poeple using cars to access the mountains. And i would be confident to say that the ten (max) snowmo's who may access the white river over a time period of a week or more have much less of an impact on the area environmentally then the thousands of cars and hords of people accessing the area through the summer season. If we all wanted to be true environmentalists, we might as well close it all down at greenwater and let nature take it's course.
Thanks again Monica for stepping in and providing assistance.
The acceptance by many of you regarding the backcountry user utilizing a snowmo is much appreciated. After all, is it all that much different in theory than poeple using cars to access the mountains. And i would be confident to say that the ten (max) snowmo's who may access the white river over a time period of a week or more have much less of an impact on the area environmentally then the thousands of cars and hords of people accessing the area through the summer season. If we all wanted to be true environmentalists, we might as well close it all down at greenwater and let nature take it's course.
Thanks again Monica for stepping in and providing assistance.
I can only presume it's to injure, force, or otherwise discourage we the public from treading on Their Park
So do you really think that they plowed in order to prevent you from entering the park, or did I just misplace my sense of humor?
My rant was a rant born of frustration with no humor intended. The honest truth is I have no idea why they plow the road. I have spent three years now doing tons of research and talking to people at DOT, MRNP, and State Snow-Parks and still can not figure it out. All I know is it isn't satisfactory to any of the winter recreationists and I'm hopeful that Monica can help broker a meeting where we can figure out what ought to be some reasonable solutions. No pressure Monica ;).
Nice trip report Boot!
Once again an outstanding hike an awesome effort! Looks like it rewarded you well.
You know that carrying all that gear (approach skis) just for the ease of snowboarding can all be remedied by taking up skiing. ;) And it will lighten your load considerably!
Sounding like a broken record on this subject, but to revisit the Snow Park issue at Silver Creek/ 410 for those who have missed it in previous threads.
Snow Parks had discussed (last Summer) not having this location as a user spot. This season it is under evaluation.
There was a feeling by sno parks that it was not used very often. Other than this year the snowpack has always been fairly low or snow levels have been higher so there is minimal snow on the road.
This limits the use for cross country skiers, snow shoe use, sno mo...
We met with Dave Uberuagua (super for MRNP), Uwe Nehring (WR area mgr), Snow Parks, USFS park officials and local winter recreationalists to discuss opening the gate and placing the Sno Park up near the Mather Wye where there is more snowpack, closer access to the snow and providing more of a wilderness experience and views of Rainier to all users.
To paraphrase, The park countered with...
1) Sounds great, but we are on a limited budget that is dwindling rapidly, so it would cost to much to maintain.
2) Safety and staffing of rangers in the Winter-No budget for that, see #1 response----I suggested volunteers, not satisfied with that idea.
3) What is wrong with the wilderness experience from the present sno park already?--Well, if ya plow the road, you don't need to buy cross country skis at a retailer. ???
The Park did suggest looking into other areas of the park that could be utilized for access, that are normally closed-such as Mowich road. Being in sales, and seeing that arguing would go nowhere I steered away from just yelling that IT STILL TAKES MONEY TO PLOW THAT ROAD AND WHAT ABOUT SAFETY AND PERSONNEL??
I don't think, that the park wants us in the WR area in the Winter. Why else would they hire a ranger, and the public pays for their lift ticket to patrol MRNP boundary of Crystal Mountain to count the number of tracks that go into the park? Don't think that the park is not very serious about pulling the plug on access from the Throne to the King, because it enters the park and violates policies that the park has on private business using/operations on park lands. Also, there is some evidence of trees getting damage along the trail. NOTHER SUBJECT!
I hope this comes off sounding right, but keep in mind that, no matter what, when you are communicating with MRNP, the park can never look wrong or the bad guy in the public light. It seems to me that the park holds the image of royalty and the image must alway be pristine. It is set up so other departments or institutions take the fall before the park takes the blame. They are very careful about change, keeping risk at a minimum, so the pristine wilderness experience lives for generations.
For example: The Sno Park failed at Silver creek not because of the plowed road in the park, rather because no one showed up to ski. REALITY IS because the last time they showed up with crosscountry skis, the park plowed the road and forced them to ski on the chunky debris berms, 4 feet high on the side of the road risking breaking their necks and they will never come back! Snow mow cannot access in these conditions either.
So it is the snoparks fault for their failure to succeed, not the park!
My suggestion for the road is that they at least leave 2/3rds or 1/2 of the side of the road unplowed with pullouts. The trucks or park officials should have radios to communicate oncoming vehicle traffic. There should not be that much traffic, remember they are closed. Any additional melt off as the season progresses should be easily handled by radiation from the plowed section or lower elevation melt and one or two passes by a large snowblower.
OK there you go...
Don't mean to be pessimistic, but...
I think I will see Boot on skis sooner than the park making great changes to provide better access in this area of the park.
Joe
Once again an outstanding hike an awesome effort! Looks like it rewarded you well.
You know that carrying all that gear (approach skis) just for the ease of snowboarding can all be remedied by taking up skiing. ;) And it will lighten your load considerably!
Sounding like a broken record on this subject, but to revisit the Snow Park issue at Silver Creek/ 410 for those who have missed it in previous threads.
Snow Parks had discussed (last Summer) not having this location as a user spot. This season it is under evaluation.
There was a feeling by sno parks that it was not used very often. Other than this year the snowpack has always been fairly low or snow levels have been higher so there is minimal snow on the road.
This limits the use for cross country skiers, snow shoe use, sno mo...
We met with Dave Uberuagua (super for MRNP), Uwe Nehring (WR area mgr), Snow Parks, USFS park officials and local winter recreationalists to discuss opening the gate and placing the Sno Park up near the Mather Wye where there is more snowpack, closer access to the snow and providing more of a wilderness experience and views of Rainier to all users.
To paraphrase, The park countered with...
1) Sounds great, but we are on a limited budget that is dwindling rapidly, so it would cost to much to maintain.
2) Safety and staffing of rangers in the Winter-No budget for that, see #1 response----I suggested volunteers, not satisfied with that idea.
3) What is wrong with the wilderness experience from the present sno park already?--Well, if ya plow the road, you don't need to buy cross country skis at a retailer. ???
The Park did suggest looking into other areas of the park that could be utilized for access, that are normally closed-such as Mowich road. Being in sales, and seeing that arguing would go nowhere I steered away from just yelling that IT STILL TAKES MONEY TO PLOW THAT ROAD AND WHAT ABOUT SAFETY AND PERSONNEL??
I don't think, that the park wants us in the WR area in the Winter. Why else would they hire a ranger, and the public pays for their lift ticket to patrol MRNP boundary of Crystal Mountain to count the number of tracks that go into the park? Don't think that the park is not very serious about pulling the plug on access from the Throne to the King, because it enters the park and violates policies that the park has on private business using/operations on park lands. Also, there is some evidence of trees getting damage along the trail. NOTHER SUBJECT!
I hope this comes off sounding right, but keep in mind that, no matter what, when you are communicating with MRNP, the park can never look wrong or the bad guy in the public light. It seems to me that the park holds the image of royalty and the image must alway be pristine. It is set up so other departments or institutions take the fall before the park takes the blame. They are very careful about change, keeping risk at a minimum, so the pristine wilderness experience lives for generations.
For example: The Sno Park failed at Silver creek not because of the plowed road in the park, rather because no one showed up to ski. REALITY IS because the last time they showed up with crosscountry skis, the park plowed the road and forced them to ski on the chunky debris berms, 4 feet high on the side of the road risking breaking their necks and they will never come back! Snow mow cannot access in these conditions either.
So it is the snoparks fault for their failure to succeed, not the park!
My suggestion for the road is that they at least leave 2/3rds or 1/2 of the side of the road unplowed with pullouts. The trucks or park officials should have radios to communicate oncoming vehicle traffic. There should not be that much traffic, remember they are closed. Any additional melt off as the season progresses should be easily handled by radiation from the plowed section or lower elevation melt and one or two passes by a large snowblower.
OK there you go...
Don't mean to be pessimistic, but...
I think I will see Boot on skis sooner than the park making great changes to provide better access in this area of the park.
Joe
I ski too Joe, just like boarding better 8). If they can't leave the road alone in the winter, you'll just see me elsewhere before you see me bc skiing.
Boot
Boot
Boot
might you be interested in a split board?
cheers
rob
might you be interested in a split board?
cheers
rob
Sure, I'd love a split in my quiver, but just spent a wad on the Nidecker Ultralight, so can't yet justify it. I'm sure it will come though.
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