Subaru 05' Outback and newer, DANGEROUS ON ICE!

I have seen a few postings on the Internet concerning this problem, and was wondering if any of you Subaru owners (2005 and newer) have encountered this problem.

My 2005 Subaru Outback does not handle well in snow/icy conditions. The rear end oscillates back and forth in a very uneasy, unsafe manor. Specifically the rear of the car “fishtails”. It does not matter if it’s off throttle, off brakes, or in a straight-line. Almost any speed does it, and is particularly bad in downhill stretches. I’ve had to slow down to very low speeds to regain control. Other cars had no trouble at the time, and easily passed. New M/S tires and an alignment have not corrected the issue. Of course the dealer can not duplicate the problem and claims everything is working correctly.

Does this happen to any of you other skiers out there, or do I have a lemon?

Bryan

Get some decent snow tires and the problem should go away. All wheel drive vehicles with all season tires will easily be bested with a front driver and a good set of studded tires.

Please, this problem is specific to 2005 Subaru outbacks and newer. It is not related to driver skill, or tires. I believe something is wrong with the car. I am asking if others have a Outback that does the same thing.

Bryan

I was riding up to Crystal with TopherVW in his brand new 07 Outback and we clearly experienced what you described. We were crossing a small bridge that had iced over and the back end of the car did this weird, tight fishtail. It wasn't out of control and we were going very slow, but it was a very weird feeling. I have ridden in 4x4 and all wheel drive cars and have never experienced this same thing that this car did. ThopherVW, has that happened again since that day?

Get some decent snow tires and the problem should go away. All wheel drive vehicles with all season tires will easily be bested with a front driver and a good set of studded tires.

I would love to believe you but I'd rather not have to chain up during chain restrictions. AWD is exempt for some reason.

Hey bscott, My 06 Outback with studless snow tires does not handle as well as my old Legacy Wagon with regular M&S, but I think it has to do with the higher center of gravity on the OB. The most dangerous part of my OB is the turbo. Good luck gaining traction when that thing is kicking in. Anyway, I was thinking, is your problem after you've been parked in cold for quite a while? Reason I ask is--I've noticed my e-brake will freeze to the disk and can be pretty squirrelly until it heats up and pops back. I try not to use the e-brake when it's very cold for that very reason. Also, post your question at www.subaruoutback.org and see what happens. BTW...I had a beater Civic a few years back with studs and that thing was unstoppable (like GreggC said). Also, the stock Bridgestone Potenza tires that come on Outbacks are worthless.

I agree, the stock Potenza tires that come with the Outback are very dangerous. There are many postings on the web from people who complain that they perform poorly on ice and snow. I originally thought the problem was with those tires,and I replaced them. But that didn't fix my problem.

The problem is not related to the brakes either. The fishtailing sometimes occurs after the car is fully warmed up, and has be moving for several hours.

The Subaru forum link above will reveal that people from all over the country are complaining about the same fishtailing. The number of complaints are not large, though. I was wondering that this being an unusually snowy winter in Washington, if the problem hasn't manifested itself in much greater numbers here this winter.

As I mentioned above, the problem is not related to the tires, the alignment, or the driver. Something changed in the 2005 and later Outback models. If enough people recognize that the fishtailing is due to a car defect and not the road conditions, then we can complain to the dealers in mass, and hopefully get them to correct the problem. At least some of these models are very dangerous to drive in snow and ice.

Bryan

I have a 08 LL Bean and I have experienced what you are talking about. I felt it when I was running my summer wheels and tires(18" 235/50/18) squirmy on the ice. I think it is the power transfer to the wheel that is slipping on the ice. I put Blizzak ws60 tires on my stock 17" wheels and I have not felt the problem since. I know on my car there is a traction control switch. I would try turning it off when in very icy conditions this way you wont have the computer transferring power back and forth to slipping tire. Quite a weird sensation.

"Please, this problem is specific to 2005 Subaru outbacks and newer. It is not related to driver skill, or tires. I believe something is wrong with the car. I am asking if others have a Outback that does the same thing."

Bryan


Bryan,

I did answer your question. I have driven outbacks plenty of times. They have a bad understeer. (think of a boat trying to turn, it take awhile to come around). This is going to kick the rear end around. It is all about grip. It doesn't matter how many wheels you have spinning or what kind of car it is. My buddy just got a good set of snows for his outback and he can't believe the difference it makes for the handling on snow and ice. There is nothing wrong with your outback. If you insist on driving on snow and ice with all season tires then you can help keep the car gripping with a bit of left foot braking. (Practice this in a big parking lot. ) This will push the rear of the car into the road and improve grip. Good luck.

Gregg

Bryan, you said you got new M/S tires, which I have to assume means Mud and Snow "Traction" tires as defined by WSDOT. Which tires did you buy? I'm very interested since my girlfriend recently bought a new Outback. If the stock Bridgestones are no good I want to recommend something safer ASAP.

The power transfer theory where the traction systems is sending power to one wheel or the other in a situation where there is some ongoing slip is interesting, though switching off the traction control is the last thing I would try to see if the fishtailing goes away! Gentle braking to a point where the fishtailing stops and then reapplying power seems more prudent.

Does anyone know the weight distribution of the Subi? The newer models to ride higher and more truck-like, and the salesman pointed out that the boxer engine has a lower center of gravity. However there's all that drivetrain hardware and glass to account for.

Robert

Robert,
The tires I have installed are Goodyear Assurance Tripletred. They were very highly rated when I bought them, but apparently are no longer available. For a good tire summary see the following link. You will see that the stock tire that came with my car (Bridgestone Potenza RE 92) is at the bottom of the list for performance.

www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/sur...isplay.jsp?type=HPAS

Cochise, my car does not have a traction control switch. There is a location for it, and there is a discussion in the users manual, but it has not been installed.
Interesting that Subaru was thinking of allowing the driver to override the traction control system back in 2005. Wonder why?

Thanks Bryan. I have a front wheel drive turbo and there's a traction control switch on the console. The dealer said "don't ever switch that off", so I toggled it as soon as he stepped out of the car. A big "TCS OFF" appeared in the instrument cluster, so surely this is not a recommended setting [Hmm... I bet I could smoke the tires...]. Anyway there must be a practical reason for it so I will consult my owners manual and post back. Did you learn anything on the subaru forum?

I don't know about the newer subarus, but some performance AWD cars have torque offsets on the front and rear wheels - The last I looked into it when I got my 2002 wrx, the WRX STI has a 40/60 FWD/AFT ratio but the normal WRX has a 50/50... They might have done something like this to make handling better in dry conditions.

Any car is dangerous on ice

Seriously though. I have a 2005 Outback and have not experienced what you describe - even with all seasons.

That said, as soon as the snow flies I try to get my Nokian Hakka RSI snow tires on. Nothing like them and make the car handle very well on anything I throw at them.


Michael

bscott, is your Subaru a stick shift or automatic? I know they have different default 'power ratios' (don't know the right term) between front and back tires (80F/20R for automatic I think, and split 50-50 for manual) when things aren't slipping. Dunno if that makes a difference.

I haven't noticed any fishtailing in mine (stick shift).

My car is a stick shift. The only thing I learned on the Subaru forum is that not everyone has experienced this problem, and that no one really knows what is causing it. I was hoping to get a more representative sample of bad-weather drivers here. We are all skiers and drive in snow/ice all the time. From the comments here, most 2005 and later model Outbacks do just fine, even with stock tires. I suspect that basically the Outback is a superior product, but that there are a few lemons out there.

I have over 40 years experience driving on icy/snowy roads in all sorts of stormy conditions, and in all sorts of cars with and without good tires. My first drivers-ed course in high school was taught on compact snow and ice. Since then I have not missed a single winter where I didn't have to drive long distances on snow covered pavement. I can say with certainty, that my 2005 Outback is the worst performing car I have ever driven in snowy conditions. Apparently I have one of the lemons.

Bryan

Hey for what it is worth...I searched some of the outback boards and people said the triple treads don't do well on the ice. I looked at the tread pattern and I can see why. If you put a dedicated snow and ice tire on such as a Blizzak or similar your problem will go away and you will be very impressed with your car's ice and snow performance. It is such a big change you wont regret it. You can go to discount tire and they will match anyones price and if you don't like them they will refund your money up to 30 days . I have taken back a set of tires to them before and they ask no questions other than what did you not like. Putting on the Blizzaks eliminated the exact thing you are describing. You really have nothing to loose. If it does not take care of the problem take them back. Your car is not a lemon. People running a wheel drive on snow and ice should have a snow and ice tire. The VDC system on the subie is working your tires are loosing traction and the computer is trying to compensate. Give your car great traction and your problem will go away.

My gut feeling is the tires are just not all that great in snow, but there could be another issue.

Assuming good tires I would check:

1: the rear brakes (the rear brake calipers may be sticking, I have seen this happen on a late model Suby)
2. the rear limited slip differential
3. the center limited slip differential.

Problems with any of these could cause the symptoms you describe. Based on what I have seen, I am inclined to be suspicious of the rear brake calipers. A problem like this would be especially noticeable on slippery roads -- you probably wouldn't notice it at all on dry pavement. Also, If this were happening, one of the rear wheels may feel hot to the touch after driving.

Manual Subarus do not (to my knowledge) have a traction control system. They rely on limited slip differentials that lock up with excessive wheel spin. So the "power transfer" (really torque transfer) is all mechanical. Automatics are different, and use the brakes and wheel speed sensors (the ABS system) to control wheel spin and transfer torque to the other wheels. Fortunately, this means the all wheel drive system is easy to test on a manual car.

You should be able to put the car in neutral, e-brake off (block the other wheels), jack up any wheel, and spin it easily. A hard to turn wheel could indicate a brake or diff problem. A stuck or hard to turn front wheel is likely a problem with a front brake or center diff, a stuck or hard to turn rear wheel may be a stuck brake or bad center or rear diff. To test the rear diff alone put the car in gear and jack up the whole back end. Spin a wheel. The opposite wheel should easily spin in the reverse direction.

If it does turn out that one of the diffs is sticking, it could be something as simple as a fluid change to fix it, or the thing could be really hosed. Either way, if you detect a problem, I would get it checked out by a Subaru mechanic. Having a differential lock up on the highway, or a brake catch fire, could be catastrophic.

FWIW - I checked my owner's manual and the safety conscious Swedes let you switch off TCS under 35 mph. "It may be necessary to switch off the system if the car has become bogged down". I'm sold on Nokians as well - got mine with studs and I've never had a traction problem.

bscott, for what it's worth, i have an 07 outback, stick shift, using original tires, and have NOT experienced this problem

I have a 2007 outback , 5 speed with stock tires. I have had the car for 2 winters with no handling problems.

Thank you for all your helpful comments. I’m sure the stability control of the car could be improved by having snow tires, studded tires, changing tire pressure, redistributing the weight load, upgrading the rear stabilization bar, and probably trying other fixes. But the fact remains that these changes would possibly only bring the stability of the car up to what it should have been in the first place. I find it hard to believe that the majority of Outback drivers in the mountains have had to upgrade their stock tires to a high quality snow tire on order to safely control their cars. There are three common points from people who have discussed this problem in the Internet forums. 1. The problem only seems to occur in 2005 or later Outback models; 2. Only a very few of the Outback owners have experienced the problem; 3. Those that have experienced the problem uniformly note that no other car on the road was having control problems at the same time, and that the other cars routinely passed the floundering Subaru at much higher rates of speed. I conclude that if you own a 2005 or late Outback model and you haven’t already experienced this fishtailing problem, then you probably won’t experience it. If you have experienced it, there is no conclusive “fix”, you have a lemon, and it is time to upgrade to a safer car.

Bryan

Bryan, you said you got new M/S tires, which I have to assume means Mud and Snow "Traction" tires as defined by WSDOT. Which tires did you buy? I'm very interested since my girlfriend recently bought a new Outback. If the stock Bridgestones are no good I want to recommend something safer ASAP.

The power transfer theory where the traction systems is sending power to one wheel or the other in a situation where there is some ongoing slip is interesting, though switching off the traction control is the last thing I would try to see if the fishtailing goes away! Gentle braking to a point where the fishtailing stops and then reapplying power seems more prudent.

Does anyone know the weight distribution of the Subi? The newer models to ride higher and more truck-like, and the salesman pointed out that the boxer engine has a lower center of gravity. However there's all that drivetrain hardware and glass to account for.

Robert

The beauty of AWD is the LACK of computer controlled traction control. Just an opinion, I could be wrong. Also I'm wondering if the newer AWD's do work somewhat differently. I know with the STI's for example that there are different differential power settings.

One thing on the tire issue I would wonder about is how wide the original poster's tires are. Whether they be snowtires or all-conditions tires, wider means more slipping on snow and ice. Wider is bad. If your aluminum wheels take the wider tires you might consider snow tires with entirely different rims, the crappy narrow kind. That will jump up your traction. Add studs to that equation and you got chains beat in any circumstance.

POWER in the new suby's is also a problem. My suby has a "manual control" that disengages the automatic. Thus I can start in second gear instead of first thus reducing power, which reduces spinout on ice and snow. If you have a manual, go with less gas, less power, less RPM's and your slip will go away.

POWER in the AWD goes to the tires that are weighted (it sounds illogical but AWD's work better precisely b/c they move power from the wheels that grip the wheels that slip and not the other way around). Keep this in mind b/c if you hit the gas the center of gravity is instantly shifted back and the back tires are given more power. When slipping let up on the gas: I disagree with left foot breaking when going uphill. Downhill, all bets are off. There is little to no advantage to AWD's on downhill ice.

Thank you for all your helpful comments.  I’m sure the stability control of the car could be improved by having snow tires, studded tires, changing tire pressure, redistributing the weight load, upgrading the rear stabilization bar, and probably trying other fixes. But the fact remains that these changes would possibly only bring the stability of the car up to what it should have been in the first place.  I find it hard to believe that the majority of Outback drivers in the mountains have had to upgrade their stock tires to a high quality snow tire on order to safely control their cars. There are three common points from people who have discussed this problem in the Internet forums. 1.  The problem only seems to occur in 2005 or later Outback models; 2. Only a very few of the Outback owners have experienced the problem; 3. Those that have experienced the problem uniformly note that no other car on the road was having control problems at the same time, and that the other cars routinely passed the floundering Subaru at much higher rates of speed. I conclude that if you own a 2005 or late Outback model and you haven’t already experienced this fishtailing problem, then you probably won’t experience it.  If you have experienced it, there is no conclusive “fix”, you have a lemon, and it is time to upgrade to a safer car.

Bryan

With the automatic 2005 I heard there was a transmission recall. Some small part in there was failing (and as such would mess up all the power distribution as well). You might check on that. It's kind of a problem Subaru hasn't been too forthcoming about. (I'm not sure what year it was but it WAS either 2005 or close to it). Call click and clack!

I think this points to a real problem, and I do hear what you are saying. Unless you are a particularly bad driver (which it sounds like you are not), I think that the tires cannot be blamed for that.

The stock tires that come with new cars usually are useless. So often they put "performance" tires on new cars and those are only good on dry pavement. Real grabby on the dry, but soft rubber means you will replace them much sooner than real tires. With a '95 car if you are still running those first tires, they would be bald by now.

I drive a '93 Legacy wagon and that thing goes anywhere. Never bought snow tires for it, only decent all season tires. I drive Stevens and other passes all the time (every weekend for the last three years) and have never had the slightest problem. Typically the passes are in decent shape, but if there is less than 4 inches of fresh on the road the car climbs fine. I have never felt the need to use the chains I bought for them, except once in Redmond of all places.

When there is packed wet snow or black ice, the traction is of course weak at best. With care this is no problem if driving slow enough. With true sheet ice on hills, NOTHING will work except for chains (best) and studs (ok, if not worn down from months of street driving).

Subaru wagons, pre-95 anyways, are by far the best snow machine I have ever driven and that is without show tires.

I do believe that my very underpowered wagon makes the difference, since there is no way I can spin the tires going up that hill after the hairpin even with the pedal to the floor. But that does not sound like your problem.

I would certainly check out the recall idea on the transmission. And if you are still running on the original tires (unlikely at this point) then get good all season tires, or if you want, snow tires (I have no issue with snow tires, I just have never needed them in 15 years of driving the passes, even when chains were required. I know what my car can do, and long before I got to a point on the drive where it got too hairy, I would then put chains on. Never happened so far.)

Drive carefully, and check the traction from time to time. I often will engage the brakes gradually and forcefully, briefly to the slipping point to gauge the amount of traction that I have. I do this when I am clear of traffic, but it tells me what the road and car are capable of regarding stopping and speed in real time and I use that info to adjust my driving habit at the time.

Been lurking for a long time, but thought I'd post on this one.

For the purposes of this discussion, it is important to describe in detail EXACTLY how your car is equipped because it is probably one (or several combined) of those specifics which are contributing to the problems.

We have a 2005 Outback VDC and it is the best snow car I have ever seen. It has the clearance of an Explorer, the comfort of an Audi and the reliability (?) of a Subaru.

In our case, the car has a 6 cyl engine with the 5 speed automatic that can be shifted manually. It was delivered with badly out of allignment wheels that wore out the OEM tires after 15K miles, but the dealer made good on it and we now have 25K miles on the replacement OEM tires (Potenza 225/55 x 17). The tires are labeled M+S but without the snowflake ... obviously these are all-weather tires ... as much as we use the car to get to the mountains in winter, most of its miles are racked up on interstate highways. Snow tires created all kinds of vibration issues at highway speeds.

The H6 VDC model has electronic stability control, which will add power (or brakes) to any wheel that is breaking loose in order to keep the car going straight. There is a disable switch on the stability control, if for some reason one needed that. The six cylinder engine is a good combination of enough power to motor up the passes with ease, but not so powerful (like the turbo model) as to break the wheels loose when accelerating.

The manual function of the transmission, like most ATs, allows the driver to hold it in a desired gear, in case you want to use the engine to brake going downhill or if you find yourself annoyingly right at a shift point and the AT can't decide which gear is best. Also, the manual mode allows the driver to force the car into a higher gear than it would normally use, thus keep ing the torque to the wheels moderated.

With 225/55X17 tires there is precious little space in the wheel well for chains, so we don't have them. Some day I'll encounter a chains only situation, but I never start out in weather that bad so I hope it never happens to me. Incidentally, do all you folks with AWD carry two sets of chains? If not, where do you mount them? Or do you only carry them for show?


Under almost any driving situations, the tires never slide. Only when I am testing the surface for slipperiness, and then it is only with the brakes. Once in a great while someone ahead of me goes into an uncontrollable spin (maybe that's Bryan) and I'm forced to take evasive tactics ... I let the VDC keep the car going straight, while I try to get out of the way of the spinning SUV. I have to try very hard to get the car to fishtail ... it is possible but it takes a deliberate act.

Here are a few of my suggestions for safe winter driving.

1. Go slow. You sort of have to anyway because of chain restrictions and other slower drivers. And pay attention, especially to the road surface.

2. Practice avoidance maneuvers in the parking lot ... that way you have some idea about what the car is going do as it breaks into a skid.

3. Keep one or two tires on any pavement you can find. That tends to keep the car going straight. I constantly am trying to feel for slipperiness on the road surface. Get an outside thermometer.

4. Don't overlap a car you are overtaking for any longer than necessary. He (like Bryan) may be having a fishtail problem.

5. Get new tires. Nothing helps the handling of a car like new tires. It is all well and good to get lots of miles out of your tires, but treat yourself, and your passengers, to some safety. If you're going to do a lot of winter driving, get the best snow tires you can afford. Be wary of wide tires ... they have to push away a lot of snow and it doesn't work very well. Don't be tempted to get studded tires. They are better than non-studded tires in only a very few, rare circumstances, and they are WORSE than NST on wet pavement. Think about the ratio of glare ice / wet pavement you drive and decide whether it pays off. There should be a large tax on studded tires, but that would only happen in a ideal world.


Just thought you'd like to know about an '05 OB that works well.

The wide tires thing is a big one. Everyone puts really wide tires on their cars and trucks these days and it kills the snow performance. I went down just one inch in width (10.5" to 9.5" on a Ranger) and it made a huge difference. For an Outback I would try and find something 225mm or narrower. look at what the rally cars are using -- tall skinny tires.

RE: studs, I have heard rave reviews of Green Diamond Tires. They are retreads, but very high quality ones. The basic idea is that small carbide granules are embedded in the tread. As the tread wears, new ones are exposed and act as mini studs. These can be driven all year and don't screw up the pavement like studs do. For the wet-to-ice-to-snow-and-back driving we can get around here, they would be ideal.

If you want to get into the whole tire thing.  I have a friend who works for a Yokohama tire manufacturing plant in Roanoke, VA.  He explained that tire manufacturers actually loose money on tires for new cars and have the accounts for brand recognition.  That being said, the plants make new cars tires especially for new cars - not as well as the big $$$$ tires you buy in the show rooms.  So basically the tires that come with your new car are crap, made to much lower specifications and should be replaced ASAP after buying your car.  This comes from a manager who actually makes the tires.

Well, that's my .5 cents

I had the same problem with my '05 Outback with the automatic.  Same stuff happened to me a few times last year driving over Stevens Pass.  I was getting passed by all sorts of cars and felt like I was barely in control. It didn't do it in every snowy situation I was in, but seemed like it only did it when the car was more loaded than usual, like say 3-4 people and gear, but I don't know if that could even cause the problem.  Maybe it was just certain conditions. Still, it shouldn't happen. Anyway, I got some better tires, (studless snow tires instead of the stock ones) and the problem got better, although I still noticed it once again this year, again with quite a load in the car.  I'm glad you started this post, Brian, because I thought I was a little crazy for slipping around in my Subie!

Matt

Per the original post, if you take your foot off the gas while on ice ( "off throttle" , "downhill stretches" ) and your wheels are not engaged (.i.e. coasting and not putting on the gas)  there is a higher probability of skidding and gliding on the ice... some sort of physics thing... I learned the hard way rolling a Suburban in Alaska ! ... yes, different car, long story... ( collecting road-kill Moose for a Seattle Sculptor )

Also ...it could be the tires..... ( and to politely suggest, maybe the driving too, slow down !)

Further up the thread "Blizzak's" ( Michelin ) were mentioned. These tires are -the- tires for snow and ice. I bought some for my 2001 VW Eurovan ( automatic) which is front wheel drive and they just rule, I have been up and down the passes in deep snow and ice with no problems. Make sure to have proper inflation too, which really does count ( and keep your foot on the gas ).

Another thing that was mentioned is to take your car out of any "smart" traction control. The VW's have an "ESP" , I turn that off and have way more control in standard drive. I also use the lower gears in deep snow situation. I have put chains on once ( what a pain ) only because the trooper insisted ! I usually plead ignorance, wave to the troopers and have no problems....

Yep, different car ( my VW ) ...Yet, I used to have a AWD Legacy 95 ( which ruled in the snow ), had some Michelins for that too.

... But my point is that tires are the most important part of your car and keeping power to the wheels helps on ice. Yet ice is always unpredictable so slow down too !

I too have had lots of Mountain driving experience in living in the mountains of Colorado (Nederland) as well Washington for last 18 years. Big O has Blizzaks, they are pricey but I will use them this winter then switch back to the touring tires for summer ( Big - O changes them for free )

my 2 cents