January 13, 2008, Alpental slackcountry

A beautiful sunny day in the Alpental bc. It looked like yesterday there was a natural avalanche cycle with small crowns all over the place, but nothing that looked too substantial. Things seemed to be cemented in place today. Fog rolled in later on but still the first blue bird day I've had all season.

Does this mean that Alpental finally opened something other than the Elevator Gate (please say yes!)?

Looked great!  Was the traverse open yet, by the look of your "fresh" powder shot it appears that way?  Be good if the whole lot was finally open.

I can only look at it right now which is depressing...

Does this mean that Alpental finally opened something other than the Elevator Gate (please say yes!)?

All gates were closed on Sunday. In case you think the BC is safe, these were taken Sunday in Stokes Bowl.

I saw a lot of big naturals on a lot of aspects on Sunday.

Lower gates were open on Sunday. Upper was closed but people were traversing out anyway. Did those slides run on Sunday? I didn't see anything release on Sunday and even the crowns from Saturday looked fairly isolated (i.e. not propagating out across a given slope).

Here's a photo of Alaska with what I'm guessing was a 2-3' crown spanning the width of a football field.  That's a southerly aspect.  Saw huge avalanches on all aspects. 

Closeup of the crown

Lower gates were open on Sunday. Upper was closed but people were traversing out anyway.

You must of went to a different Alpental. BC was closed Sunday. The slide in the pictures hapened Sunday.

Well.....if you didn't duck any ropes and only went through Snake Dance gate you were still inbounds

My bad, I guess the "BC" was technically closed. I went through snake dance, traversed out, ducked a rope and continued on. I just assumed that if snake dance is open, everything one can access from that gate is open, as there are plenty lines one could get into trouble within spitting distance of the snake dance gate. Ropes really have no meaning to me at Alpental (this is the mountain that closed International on one of the busiest days of the year because the entrance was too difficult for beginners). My biggest concern is that by ducking ropes, younger folks without the proper equipment will follow my trail so I try to do it discreetly. I still think the lower bc was relatively safe that day. There was a tremendous difference from the snow on the upper mountain (which was light enough to be wind transported) and the glue we were skiing down low. I was more worried about breaking a leg or blowing out a knee in the muck.

Ropes really have no meaning to me at Alpental

That's kinda bad isn't it?

Wow. Either he is serious or just wants to fan some flames. I am not a backcountry buff. I don't know the upper taverse to the BC nor would I go there without training, partner, equipment, etc.

I do know the lower gate at Snake.

There is a rope set up there for a reason.

People like this are the ones you read about when they are found dead in an avalanche under ridiculous conditions or cause a backcountry rescue at the cost of the tax payers.

Some people will never learn.

Not being a fan of fanning flames, I found this quite disturbing.  www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41854

Not being a fan of fanning flames, I found this quite disturbing.  www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41854

The acronym JONG comes to mind...
Frankly, (and disturbingly) I worry more about people like that setting things off above me, then I do triggering (still concerned about that to). Call it self preservation in the brave new world of personal broadcasting (read YouTube) and all things "extreme" which should now be renamed "colassal" (miss spelled on purpose) to capture the ever growing spirit of pushing limits combined with attention whoredom... Did you see me, did you see me? Rant over.

If I were to say I approached the Alpental BC via source lake, my backcountry prowess would not be questioned (which I have numerous times). But because I got there via a lift and ducking a rope I'm automatically dubbed a noob, jong, idiot, ect? On this particular day I felt the bc was safe, regardless of whether the patrol deemed it unsafe. I would never exit a ski area, or travel anywhere in the backcountry, where my line selection puts those below me in danger. And there are days where I agree with patrols' decision to close the bc and I stay in bounds (or just do a mellow tour). However, Alpental is overly conservative on their decision to open and close in bounds and out-of-bounds terrain. Resorts such as Alta, and Jackson Hole, (which generally have considerably higher avy danger) realize that it is futile to enforce a "boarder" because people will inevitably cross it. Instead, they have bc gates, and those gates are permanently open even in extreme avy danger; more of a European model. The PNW ski scene has always been a little behind the curve. In time, I am confident resorts like Alpental will relax their boarder policy and put more of the responsibility on the skier. If you don't agree with my assessment of the avy danger that day, that's cool, I respect your opinion. But like kayaking a class V river, or doing a big wall climb, backcountry skiing involves calculated risks. I stand by my decision to venture into the bc that day, as do the 100 or so other skiers that were also in the Alpental bc on that day. Also, Alpental may be able to pull your pass if you get caught ducking a rope, but I'm not aware of any WA statute that makes it criminal.

Here's the problem with Alpental's BC policy: By taking responsibility for whether or not you are allowed to access the BC from their gates, Alpental implicitly takes responsibility for your actions once you enter the BC from their gates. Jackson went to an open gate policy because this places the responsibility entirely on the individual who made the decison to enter the BC. Yes, there are problems with the Jackson system, primarily that you get a bunch of idiots out there who end up getting in trouble (having personally saved the life of one, I know how much this sucks), but this happens just as often at Alpental (if not more so since we're so close to a major metropolitan area) so why the antiquated policy? By placing yourself in the BC you are taking a risk, whether its high or low avalanche danger, that's what makes it the BC and not inbounds. I respect Alpental and am very thankful for the terrain its lifts allow me to access, but like the previous post, I am hopeful that they will see the pointlessness of their current policy and open the gates. I just hope this happens before an incident occurs in their BC and they get sued and have to close their gates permanantly.

I would like to add a bit of reinforcement to the last two posts. We went to Alpy yesterday afternoon, very excited that they may have one of the higher gates open. Alas, no. The big glide crack has opened on Rockface just below Elevator Gate and they used that as their excuse to leave everything closed. Huh?

So we toured up the Phantom on Snoqualmie. Then we did some high-speed night-skiing laps on the groomers afterward.

I tried to be patient and understanding with the long delays earlier in the season, but to get nothing open yesterday because of Rockface seems ridiculous to me.

Way to stand your ground through the dogpile, altasnob. I still disagree with your flippant assessment of Sunday's danger (small crowns, nothing substantial, everything cemented today) in your first post, but you sure did catch hell for your other comments.

I'd be happy to cut every roll in the BC, pre-opening - just let me sign a waiver and I'll be there for Chair 2 at 7 am to git 'er done. I'm sure others would offer the same.

Not being a fan of fanning flames, I found this quite disturbing.  www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41854

I found this video to be uhhhhhhh extremely boring. That's ten minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

If I were to say I approached the Alpental BC via source lake, my backcountry prowess would not be questioned (which I have numerous times). But because I got there via a lift and ducking a rope I'm automatically dubbed a noob, jong, idiot, ect? On this particular day I felt the bc was safe, regardless of whether the patrol deemed it unsafe. I would never exit a ski area, or travel anywhere in the backcountry, where my line selection puts those below me in danger. And there are days where I agree with patrols' decision to close the bc and I stay in bounds (or just do a mellow tour). However, Alpental is overly conservative on their decision to open and close in bounds and out-of-bounds terrain. Resorts such as Alta, and Jackson Hole, (which generally have considerably higher avy danger) realize that it is futile to enforce a "boarder" because people will inevitably cross it. Instead, they have bc gates, and those gates are permanently open even in extreme avy danger; more of a European model. The PNW ski scene has always been a little behind the curve. In time, I am confident resorts like Alpental will relax their boarder policy and put more of the responsibility on the skier. If you don't agree with my assessment of the avy danger that day, that's cool, I respect your opinion. But like kayaking a class V river, or doing a big wall climb, backcountry skiing involves calculated risks. I stand by my decision to venture into the bc that day, as do the 100 or so other skiers that were also in the Alpental bc on that day. Also, Alpental may be able to pull your pass if you get caught ducking a rope, but I'm not aware of any WA statute that makes it criminal.

Ah, but you didn't. And if you had, who is to say that you wouldn't be questioned? Up until recently Easterly aspects have been had a high to moderate avalanche danger rating since the rain event at Christmas. That covers Source lake and everything between. Not to mention that we are not living with our usual snow pack currently...

So, you come up here on the weekend, looked up at the mountain and "felt" it was safe? Or is there something else to your evaluation process that you can share? Weather analysis, Snow pits, compression or Rutschblock tests, discussions with the pro patrol about the results from control work?

The Alpental Pro Patrol is on the mountain, all day every day, running regular control routs on all aspects, tracking weather conditions, constantly evaluating the snow pack, communicating with NWAC, etc... Many of these men and women have been up here for years, working day in and day out, experiencing Aplental and everything that nature throws at it first hand. No one is perfect, and there might be days when they choose to be cautious. Regardless, anyone thinking they know more then these guys about the terrain and conditions is fooling themselves. By the way, rarely is anything as simple as it seems on the surface.

Add this dynamic into the decision making process. As the pass is less the 60 minutes from down town, connected by 6 lanes of concrete, skiers/boarders have the ability to easily access this terrain. Couple that to Alpental's relatively small size, things get skied out quickly, people go searching for more and find them selves in terrain or conditions they aren't prepared for (generally speaking).

This isn't Europe, Utah or Wyoming, it's Washington, and the rules here apply to all of us, what makes you (or anyone so inclined) so special that they shouldn't apply to you as well? Alpental is complex on many levels and the pro staff has to balance that against the desires of a few that may legitimately not need their protection. Last time I checked, there are a lot of us (some who are also well equipped, practiced and have extensive touring backgrounds, highly knowledgeable with safe travel practice and snow pack / avalanche danger evaluation) patiently waiting for the patrol to do their jobs, so we can pass through the gates to get to the same untracked.

As far as "trespass", (please don't quote this as I have learned this second hand, but trust the source) When you are at Alpental, you are not in the back country when you cross Forever Rope Line, you are still on the ski areas property (well OK, seasonal lease contract with the Forest Service - same difference). If it's closed, there is a reason that may extend past your base of knowledge and experience. the area is responsible for and has management rights all the way to the Cleaver. Not until then are you off of their managed property and in the "backcountry". Trespassing is a charge the area can file with King County at their discretion. So, maybe punishable, maybe not, not worth testing the system, plenty of other accessible back country that can be skied up here that isn't in question when conditions warrant.

When you (read anyone) cross a rope line, you (if you're seen) or your tracks will pull another dozen riders/skier along with you, many of which who may not know the difference, aren't equipped with the knowledge or tools or awareness to make the right choices.

Also, when you poach, how do you know the patrol isn't below you running control routs? Point in fact, people poaching contributes to the effort required and the time it takes to get things going outside the gates. People not poaching = patrol covering more area quicker without having to worry if some one is going trigger on top of them, or if there is someone below them in a closed area where they are working. The attitude that rope lines are there for everyone else contributes to Chair 2 opening later on some days.

You don't have to agree with the patrols policy, or their judgment call on the level of danger, no one is holding a gun to your head. You also don't have to ski Alpental. You have choices that do not involve dropping rope lines. You mention that you tour, there are plenty of great opportunities around here...

Bottom line, poaching isn't cool. It's naive and self entitled behavior that gets people into more then they bargained for on a regular basis, or as Sting put it "a statistic on a government chart".

I don't know you, you may rip it up and be fun to ski with. You may even have level 1 and 2 certification in multiple climate regions with a well a sorted out skill set and background. None of us, your family, friends and fellow skiers want to read about you or anyone else that made the mistake of dropping a rope line once too often, in the wrong place or the wrong time that didn't end well...

You don't have to agree with the patrols policy, or their judgment call on the level of danger, no one is holding a gun to your head. You also don't have to ski Alpental. You have choices that do not involve dropping rope lines. You mention that you tour, there are plenty of great opportunities around here...

I didn't agree yesterday and that's why I posted this morning. And yesterday I made the choice to ski elsewhere based on the patrol's call for the day. But I may base future choices on whether to buy a season pass again on how often the access is there on the days when I want to ski Alpental. Just my two cents.

I didn't agree yesterday and that's why I posted this morning.  And yesterday I made the choice to ski elsewhere based on the patrol's call for the day.  But I may base future choices on whether to buy a season pass again on how often the access is there on the days when I want to ski Alpental.  Just my two cents.

That's the right approach. When you buy a pass or ticket, you agree to abide buy the rules. Not entering closed areas is one of them. Thats a price we pay for using lifts. We have skins for a reason.

Copy that.
Saw your turns on Phantom today, they looked good.

Of course, in true Alpental irony they did open it the very next day with very little fanfare and even fewer skiers.  Very silky snow for the most part.  Days like that (thursday), where it seems like it might suck/be closed/be too busy but somehow isn't end up being some of the best days at the Alp.

For what it's worth I think some good points were made on both sides of the eternal "to poach or not to poach" debate.  I try not to poach so much anymore and mostly I don't but I can't claim perfection.  I would admit that I agree that there are days when it does not seem logical that it is closed.  Wednesday may have been one of those days, but as luck would have it I  rested that day (my back has been ailing but it is getting better).  At least one other person that I trust told me they were very surprised it was not open on Wednesday as well, but I think it had more to do with them wanting to blow off the cornices above the high traverse (which they did Thursday moring).

It seems like they are setting it up a little differently this year, where they're just opening one gate up by the high traverse entrance and then from there you can go either to the high or low traverse as you please.  I like it so far and think it should make it nicer for skiers and especially boarders going to the low traverse as they can take a higher line to make it around the bowl over to the knoll 1 gate.

The upcoming high pressure should help stabilize things more so it looks like we'll have our bc back, which is good news.  As mentioned, anyone can (and should) take their skins and rally up the nearby stuff, but speaking strictly of snow quality I believe that the Alp bc almost always has the aspects (mostly N-NE) with the best snow in the valley.  This is why we all love it so much.

Copy that.
Saw your turns on Phantom today, they looked good.

SPGC meeting ?

SPGC meeting ?

Ummm, sorry...
That was directed to Skykilo...