Cowlitz Rocks/Paradise Gl, Dec 8, 2007

What time did the gate open? You musta made pretty good time to get up Cowlitz and back up near Anvil both. Thanks for the good pics.

Opened @ 9:00.  Conditions made for pretty quick travel, but it sure would be nice on these short days to get an earlier start.

I, too, wish the gate were consistently open earlier. Sunrise from well above timberline shouldn't be locked away when the road's apt to be in good condition. There are few things better for the soul.

Remember the Park Service's #1 concern is not service -- it's liability.  #2 is keeping within their limited budget.

Want an early start from Paradise -- camp overnight -- of course the trick hereis getting past Longmire before the gate gets closed in the evening...

http://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/upload/winter_group_camping.pdf

Went up there Saturday as well.  Killer weather and views, for sure.  And very nice 4" layer of fluff on top of the crust.   ;D  Lots of rocks poking thru, though, at the top of Pan Point and for a few spots shortly after it.  Wait a few weeks for more snowpack to build up if you don't  want to have some long walks in that section or else scratching up your bases. 

When I called the park on Friday they said that the gate could open any time between 8:15 and 9:00 am.  The guy basically said that even in the best of conditions, dont count on the gate ever opening before 9 am in winter.  Sucks, but there it is.   

OK, I'm really holding back here and surprised to not get any fired-up responses.  I'm hacked off to have to buy a yearly pass so I can access one road in OUR PARK for a few hours on some days in the winter.  I have no problem with a closed road or late opening on bad weather days, but there is no reasonable reason to open so late on nice days.  All other mtn roads and passes in the state seem to manage it just fine.  If liability is "concern #1", how does someone getting up earlier in the morning increase liability?  And if "their limited funds is concern #2", how does running three snowplows and a support sander truck up and back to Paradise on a beautiful morning with no new snow cut any costs??  It's too bad there's no such thing as common sense and public service from govt entities anymore and I guess we're just worn out from complaining and never getting a positive response.  With public winter recreation being the only reason to have that road open(I know this winter the're building), you would think that those involved would get some pleasure and satisfaction out of doing a better job.  I'm done......for now.

The park rangers are government workers. When they have had enough morning coffee and feel like putting their boots on, then ,,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe the gate will get opened. Alot of the park rangers I have come in contact with, frankly just don't give a damn.

Until we can change their attitude , nothing will change.

There has been much discussion about opening the White River entrance side in the winter. That probably won't happen. Simply because some of those rangers might actually have to work. Heaven forbid, they have to put down that cup of coffee.

Thanks for the great pics. What kind of camera?

That's what I suspect as well, but why is it?  What happens to these guys?  I would think before becoming gov't employees the're like you and me; what makes them not give a crap?

Thanks for the pic compliments, Bandit and Robie.  I do love to take em and have been using a Fuji F-700 as my first and only digital for about 4 yrs now.  It's very sturdy, fits in my pockets, and only weighs 4 or 5 oz.  So far I've had no problems with it.

author=Boot link=topic=8425.msg33778#msg33778 date=1197313658]
OK, I'm really holding back here and surprised to not get any fired-up responses.  I'm hacked off to have to buy a yearly pass so I can access one road in OUR PARK for a few hours on some days in the winter.  I have no problem with a closed road or late opening on bad weather days, but there is no reasonable reason to open so late on nice days.  All other mtn roads and passes in the state seem to manage it just fine.  If liability is "concern #1", how does someone getting up earlier in the morning increase liability?  And if "their limited funds is concern #2", how does running three snowplows and a support sander truck up and back to Paradise on a beautiful morning with no new snow cut any costs??  It's too bad there's no such thing as common sense and public service from govt entities anymore and I guess we're just worn out from complaining and never getting a positive response.  With public winter recreation being the only reason to have that road open(I know this winter the're building), you would think that those involved would get some pleasure and satisfaction out of doing a better job.  I'm done......for now.

rant rant rant --

They won't open the road until the plows have driven up and back and they know that road is clear and not blocked by slides, rocks or trees -- that liability thing.  The plows don't start their run until normal "1st" shift hours -- sure if they plow drivers got up at 4AM the gate could open much earlier -- but then the plow drivers would have to be paid overtime or at least shift differential.  That money thing.

Comparing the road to Paradise to other state hwys is a little apples and oranges -- the Paradise road crosses consierably more avalanche slopes than any other road in the state that is kept open during the winter.

In terms of numbers of people -- it is the Paradise snow play area that generates the greatest number of vistors -- and the Park service likes to have a ranger or two on duty in the snow play area -- because it really help cut down on the number of accidents and injuries.

The 2nd greatest number of winter vistors are scout troops that come up in droves to snow camp in the Dead horse area.

Perhaps the strangest bit of the whole Paradise operation in -- why do they keep the road open at all -- well buddy it aint for you -- The Jackson vistor center was originally designed for Mau Kea in Hawaii  (even notice that it looks like a volcano?) -- Senator Jackson managed to "Scoop" up some extra money to build a copy at Paradise -- but there wasn't enough money to actually design a building appropriate the Paradise winter environment -- the cheezy hack solution was a hot water piping system to melt the snow off the roof.   The furnace burns fuel oil and the tanks don't hold nearly enough oil for the whole winter -- so the road is kept open to for fuel trucks.   I think last year the fuel bill was close to $500,000.

My big worry is once the new visitor center is completed and the old one torn down -- the road to Paradise will be closed in winter to save $$$ -- and that will suck a lot more than "That dang gate"

I was up there on the 8th and I know it is frustrating to get up at 4:30AM just to get to the park and have to wait an hour or so for the gate to open.  It is what it is.  The road needs to be safe for the tourists that have no business driving in the snow.  They spend much more money at the park than the majority of us.  What sucks is being stuck behind one of then once the gate does open.

I would also love to see the White Rive open as well but I just don’t think there the proper facilities (restrooms) to support visitors in the winter.  It is too bad because I feel the road would be easier to maintain.

Did you drop in from the Muir side or did you climb up Paradise?

author=Bandit link=topic=8425.msg33967#msg33967 date=1197643216]
The park rangers are government workers. When they have had enough morning coffee and feel like putting their boots on, then ,,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe the gate will get opened. Alot of the park rangers I have come in contact with, frankly just don't give a damn.

Until we can change their attitude , nothing will change.

As I always tell people who rant and bitch and whine about government employees being lazy, inefficient, apathetic, etc etc blah blah blah..... did it ever occur to you that they make a lot less money than a private sector employee with a similar skillset and job functions? 

So until you, and the rest of the general public (and namely, the politicians we elect) become more willing to pay gov't employees decent wages... they should stop pointing fingers and remember the adage "you get what you pay for". 


Double E, former government employee

I get a lot more worried having non-government enities running anything in a national park or any other state lands (although they already do in many cases). Mainly I don't want to see for-profit companies running our lands! The bottom line doesn't always balance the user and the lands fairly. Look at saint helens...what is it? 25 bucks per person, per day or some such, 10 dollars of which go to the company charges the fee for the forest service. This is a derivative of the forest service being underfunded.

Yes, looking back, I remember a much different park, but times change and I'm sure there are many reasons for the changes. I like rainier park. It was a great place to learn skiing when the family couldn't afford tickets, and, it's still is reasonable! An annual pass is cheap. We pay 50 bucks to ski at a ski area for a day. It's hard to complain about an park pass being expensive.

I will confess that I am a lazy govt employee. I will stop reading tay at work now and give you citizens the service you need. Please vote better in the future. Thanks.

That's what I was looking for; thank you all.

The most informative response, by Randy, was about the Visitors Center and needed fuel supply.  It rings a bell that I've heard this story before and likewise scares the crap out of me that they will close winter access in a couple years when all the construction is done.  That will teach us!  I too love The Park and prefer at this point in time to bitch than never go there.  It isn't the price I complain about, though I'm not a believer in user fees for Natnl Parks, it's that it's the public's Park and yet the employees act like it's theirs and only by the grace of God do they allow us to come in!

I won't buy the crap about cost to open the road earlier on nice days; not when they waste money driving four vehicles up there when there isn't much to do to open it.  It's ingrained policy and total lack of common sense, which has become pervasive everywhere.  You won't convince me that it would be that big a deal to get two guys up there a little early on a nice day and just DO IT.

It's become crystal clear that they don't open the road for us folk.  It's also clear that those of you on another thread talking about opening the north side are crazy.  They will never invest in that.  In the mean time I'll be firing-up the snowmos next wkend and hope to have some great pics of blowing pow on the north side.  Have a fun, safe wkend all.

Well I for one regret bringing up work and politics on TAY in my earlier post. I will do pennance tomorrow by breaking trail somewhere, maybe snoq pass finally judging by the trip reports.
I still have some empathy for the park workers. Some of them are pretty good folks that work hard with less resources as time goes on. I know I am also guilty of being pleased with myself for getting through the gate before it was staffed and saving the fee money and then grumbling that there is no one there to open the gate while I played frisbee with other site members.
Also, does anyone have a good contact in the park to bring this up to hopefully as helpful feedback to the park? That Gator guy chimes in here once in a while, he might be able to show us how to go through the proper channels.
Nice pics by the way.

Thanks Ron.  Really nice to know that people enjoy the pics; I certainly enjoy those of others here too.  I already sent Gator a "you if anybody in the Park would understand our frustration" note, but no response yet.  I will for sure keep you posted if I get one.  Oh and 'savegondor' we went in from Edith Basin into Paradise basin/glacier.

author=Double E link=topic=8425.msg33986#msg33986 date=1197666448]

As I always tell people who rant and bitch and whine about government employees being lazy, inefficient, apathetic, etc etc blah blah blah..... did it ever occur to you that they make a lot less money than a private sector employee with a similar skillset and job functions? 

So until you, and the rest of the general public (and namely, the politicians we elect) become more willing to pay gov't employees decent wages... they should stop pointing fingers and remember the adage "you get what you pay for". 


Double E, former government employee

I'm not sure about what you're talking about. Some of the highest paid people in my profession work for the state.

The park rangers choose to work for MRNP. If they need more money , than get retrained in a different occupation.

You can't use that as an excuse for laziness or apathy.

You the Man, Bandit.  Well said; just didn't want to be the only one to say it. 

Made another run up there to the Tatoosh today.  Gate opened at 9am under high clouds, but very clear visi and didn't start snowing lightly until after 4pm.  Talked to a friendly Ranger at the gate and when offered donuts and coffee to get it opened earlier, he mentioned that Scotch might do the trick.  Hmmm, sounds like a potential crack in the rigid policy, but not sure snow plow drivers with a bottle of Scotch would fit the "safety first"rule!! ;D