Anybody own a Dynafit ABS system?

I've decided I fit the avalanche victim profile too closely (47, male, many years of experience, wears beeper, has had an avalanche class), and am planning on buying one of these:<br><br>www.akxtreme.net/products.htm

Anyone else own one?

Rick Randall

There's a thread going on about the airbag system over on the ttips avy forum, Rick...<br>telemarktips.com/forums/Avy_Safety_/posts/3603.html
I seem to recall that at least one of the posters claimed to own a system.

That's funny: RRandall's description sounds remarkably like me!<br><br>FWIW, there are several threads on telemarktips.com which address this issue. I'd settle in for a while and look through them all; use the search function on the main board, searching for "ABS," "air bag" or "airbag." Don't forget to search within message bodies. There has also been a lot of discussion on the separate avalanche forum on that site, which does not have a search function (but which gets far less use, so it's easier to search manually). <br><br>As you'll see, there is a certain amount of passion around this issue at the moment, and more than a bit of pontificating. At least a few of those posting are from this area. Anyone posting there is registered, and can be contacted privately using the private message function. I'd want to have a firsthand look before dropping five or six bills on such a thing. <br><br>As a fellow 47-year-old, experienced skier who's taken a few avalanche courses, I'd be interested in hearing more about your thoughts and conclusions.<br><br>Enjoy,<br><br>Mark <br><br>

Charles posted som info on them some time ago, too:<br>www.turns-all-year.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...splay;num=1041552359

Thanks, guys. I posted on Telemarktips to get some feedback from an actual owner. These things have been in use in Europe for over 10 years. I'm surprised they've taken so long to get going in the US. Perhaps it's product liability. I'll let you know when I get mine -- should be in a couple of weeks. Looks like one just saved a snowmobiler's life in Alaska<br><br>www.akxtreme.net/Avalanche_incidents.htm

I toured with a guide friend in BC over the New Years who owns one. He was quite happy with it and let me try it out. I plan on biting the bullit and buying one next season. The cartidges are replacable for 25 bucks (available from LifeLink). This is an outstanding product that will increase your safety margin in the backcountry. The quality of construction is very good. When you add the cost of the pack the system alone is not unreasonable. I for one like the idea of staying on top of the snow rather than having protections in place that assume that I am buried.

Rick, I was following the link you provided and came across a very interesting page titled "Known Documented Cases of Avalanche Accidents with the ABS-Avalanche Air Bag System". Here's the link for it:<br> www.akxtreme.net/Stats.htm

Well, I did it. Went over to Mt. Constance and ordered one (the "Plus".) Comes with an extra cylinder so that if you have to trigger it, you'll still have a workable system until you buy another spare. Dynafit also has a deal where you pay a $100 deposit, they send you a test cylinder, you use it to shoot the system once, mail the cylinder back, and they refund the $100. I took them up on that.<br><br>When I was 15 and starting to climb rocks in Colorado, I stretched my finances mightily to buy a rope. Glad I did. I figure this is similar. Now I'm not totally dependent upon my questionable ability to predict whether a slope with slide or not.<br><br>Actually, the only thing I'm regretting about this decision is that now I'll always have to ski with a pack. I've been skiing with just a large fanny pack for years.

The ABS system intrigues me as well. Since we're going to the alps in April, I'm planning on checking out the prices. I've seen the Model Plus for 400 euros on at least one website. At that price I'm willing to go for it.

I've been following the avy related threads on TT for a while now. Very interesing and sometimes entertaining reading. It's good to see there's some agreement about the avy order of operations: (1) training (2) tools (3) good decisions (4) more training. <br><br>To anyone contemplating spending the money on the ABS, I would first ask if they've spent the same amount of money/time on training. Technology is cool, but I don't think it's a substitute for making educated decisions. <br><br>For what it's worth, I would never compare a climbing rope to an ABS. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Yvon Chouinard summed it up well when he referred to the 10 Essentials as the "10 impediments." No amount of gear will prevent poor decision making.<br><br>

I've followed those same threads. I must admit it's starting to annoy me (restrainted language) when people make assumptions that because someone is interested in or buys a safety device, somehow this signals that they don't have appropriate training or will now take additional risks. IMHO, it's really a pretty stupid broad stroke to paint. I willing to bet MANY trained, experienced skiers will get ABS's if the price was more reasonable.<br><br>I'm absolute certain wearing an ABS (or avalung) won't change my decision making. Hopefully I'd never have to use it and it would just contribute to my fitness by carrying extra weight. But if it gives my wife, kids and I some added assurances, it's worth it.

I agree, russ.<br>I suspect few of the ABS buyers are of the "Hey, Y'all Watch This!" mentality.<br>So Rick, Have you recieved your Plus yet?<br>If so, how do you like it?<br>Have you had it out yet?<br>What was the demo inflation like?<br>Give a report on it first chance you get, ok?

I also have to agree with Ron and Russ. If I were wearing an ABS pack, I would try very hard not to let it's presence change my slope decisions. Maybe that's not completely possible, but I would ski with the awareness that having the ABS doesn't change the chances of triggering or getting caught in an avalanche, only the chance of burial. And if the data I've seen is reliable, having and deploying the ABS greatly reduces the chances of burial.<br><br>I think we have seen this winter that even veritable avalanche experts have been mistaken in their evaluation of the avalanche hazard. I don't think that it would ever be possible to get enough training to be 100% accurate, all of the time, in one's hazard evaluation. So for surviving a future misjudgement, would it be better to have only a beacon, and depend on others to dig you out, or also have the ABS and greatly reduce the chance that a beacon recovery will be needed? I think I've just convinced myself to look into the ABS matter some more.<br><br>Charles

I agree on most points, especially given that as Charles notes, you can't be 100% safe if you're touring for turns, as turns happen in terrain that is steep enough to slide, and even highly trained folks such as Canadian Mountain Guides get surprised from time to time.<br><br>On the other hand, I also agree that too much safety gear can become an impediment, which is in itself a safety issue. If you can't travel fast, there are situations that will go from bad to worse.<br><br>But it's clear that folks like Russ are taking this into account in balancing all the factors.<br><br>If you remember that you can always die of trauma from hitting a tree even if you're on top of the slide, I think you may have a chance of not changing your decision-making if you have one of these on your back.

Okay, Ron, I'll post as soon as I've had a chance to try out the test cartridge. Right now I'm still waiting for the Plus system I ordered to show up at the shop -- they were out of stock at the distributor when I ordered. I could have gotten the smaller Proline right away, but wanted a little larger pack for versatility (might be able to use it for overnight trips)

Cool.<br>We'll be waiting with 'bated breath

Well, I got the system about a week and a half ago. They didn't have the one I was looking for, so they gave me a free upgrade to the biggest pack. It'll be a good size for skiing -- not actually all that huge -- rather small for an overnight pack, rather large for a day pack. I deployed the airbag with the spare cylinder they sent. That was interesting. Did it in the family room. Our pomeranian gave me some really strange looks -- thought it was some creature breathing. Refolding it was pretty easy. The instructions are quite clear. The unit looks like some kind of aviation safety equipment in the way it is manufactured and labeled. For instance, they write the full weight in grams on the bottles so that you can verify at any time that they haven't somehow leaked. It's a metal seal on the bottle, so they should stay pressure tight for years.<br><br>Haven't had the pack out on the slopes yet. Tried to take it to Hurricane Ridge last weekend but the rangers decided not to plow that Saturday. My guess is because the downhill area is now closed, and they probably figured they'd only be plowing for about a dozen visitors.

Thanks for the update, Rick.<br>I'll be interested in later hearing how you liked touring with it.

Well, I wore the pack skiing for the first time last weekend. It carries and skis well and can hold enough for an overnight trip. HOWEVER, I learned you need to be careful with the trigger -- if you leave the thing armed unexpected things can happen. I was in the process of putting on the pack after lunch break and scared Kenny with a loud inflating noise! He looked up to see a large, orange-winged butterfly wearing skis standing in front of him.<br> <br>My companions felt there was some entertainment value to be had.<br>

Rick sent me a great photo of his Dynafit ABS "accident", which I will insert here:<br><br> <br><br>Rick, I'm curious about how long it took for the bags to fully inflate? Also, is deflating and repacking them into the pockets fairly straightforward?

Interesting, Rick.<br>So now that you've had your little "learning experience", do you believe you can use the pack routinely (possibly with some minor policy changes) or do you forsee it becoming a major pain to avoid unwanted deployments?

It takes about a second and a half for the bags to inflate fully. It took me about 15 minutes to repack them on the hill. You want to be real sure to follow the instructions when repacking, however. This was my second time to shoot the thing off, so at least I got to prove to myself that I'm capable of properly re-packing the bags. Regarding the problem of false firings, there are several fixes:<br>1) The little white thing near my armpit is the trigger. This is actually a small explosive device. I could keep it stowed separately and only attach it while on dangerous terrain<br>2) The little white trigger has a red velcro strap around it. I could fasten that more tightly to prevent this sort of thing, then loosen the velcro when on dangerous terrain.<br>Either fix is easy.

Rick, you said you "went over to Mt. Constance and ordered one." I assume Mt. Constance is a local store? Do you know who they ordered the pack from? I'm trying to find out what my options are besides www.akxtreme.net and www.abssystem.com. Life-link carries them, but not the Profi model (the largest), which is the one I'm interested in.

Thanks,
-Josh

Josh -- sorry about the tardy reply (!) - Mt Constance is a shop in Bremerton, but the main supplier in the US is Lifelink/Croakies out of Jackson, Wyoming. Any store that can contact a LifeLink distributor can get you one.<br>RR

I've been tempted to get the avalung over the past few years, especially the compact model. I've tried them on and it appears feasible to me to ski with the tube in the mouth on slopes steep enough to avalanche, etc. One can still get buried face down with the air bags and it doesn't take a deep burial. Reading accounts of avalanche victims, a big danger comes with inhaling snow during the avy. But in my day-in day-out skiing, I think we're pretty conservative; I don't think the avalung would change that, so why buy it then? The real danger I think we've encountered is on trips to interior B.C. where the snowpacks are much more likely to have some inapparent insidious long-lasting hazards. Interesting question--I'm becoming more adventurous as my skiing improves, my partner less adventurous as we get older.

If this is the less adventurous model of Regine, I'm glad I never tried to keep up during her more adventurous days!<br><br>Best to you both,<br><br>Mark

Well, I accidentally triggered my Dynafit ABS system for the second time today at Hurricane Ridge (first time was last spring). I had started a policy of taking off the trigger before removing the pack, and that was good, but today I somehow triggered it while wearing the pack and removing a skin. Guess the moral is that you'd better have that trigger removed while doing anything besides strictlly skiing. This is a downside to the system.<br><br>I skied a couple of runs with the inflated balloons sticking out to either side of me -- actually worked quite well--just couldn't ski to close to trees. Ever see a Monarch butterfly telemark ski in the backcountry? <br><br>I took some deserved razzing from the guys I was skiing with.

Tim, what you say is logical, but I think I still disagree. That is, for me, there is one more factor: because I am already using a beacon, I have already decided to increase my acceptable risk by going out into steeper terrain with potential avalanche hazards. I hope to never have to actually use the beacon, and I try to make decisions which will ensure that. If I (we) make a mistake, however, I hope that the beacon will minimize the consequences.<br><br>So, if I suddenly had an ABS system on my back (in addition to my beacon), the question for me would be whether I would change my decision making compared to just having the beacon. And that's where I would try very hard not to let the ABS change anything. I would try to keep the perspective that the ABS was not a license to increase my level of acceptable risk, but rather simply an additional protection in case of a bad decision. I think this would work for me, but everyone is different and it might not work for others. I can imagine, however, situations where peer factors could come into play and make it more difficult for me to keep my desired perspective (ie. if everyone had an ABS).

For what it's worth, I have just had 4 days off piste skiing/snowboarding with a guide in Klosters Switzerland. The guide was the manager of a small guides collective there and all his guides wore ABS rucksacks. I did a similar trip last season to Val d'Isere and the guide company we used there all had them as well.<br><br>Interestingly enough clients aren't supplied with them, they get Ortovox transceivers only and no shovel or probe. I guess the theory is the guide finds any client caught in an avalanche but has no expectation of a client finding him if he is buried. I didn't want to ask what was suppossed to happen if the guide and some of the clients were caught.