April 14, 2006, Silver Pk, Avalanches

Thanks for the info.   Guess I will go hiking out east instead.
I would like to open a civil discussion about your snowmobile, though.  In general I believe the snowmobile assist community has a responsibility to carefully choose destinations before you go.  Cold Creek is an area that it simply is inappropriate.
Some reasons:
The Nordic Center has now reduced days of operation.  It is illegal to operate a snowmobile, not just when they are open, but at all during they're entire operating season.  Yes, you went thoughtfully after the grooming season ended.   But during the season, on days the center is closed, the groomed trails are getting poached by highmarker types going on to destroy slopes of Silver Peak.  Now that the Nordic Center does not operate Mon-Thurs this is getting common.  Any additional snowmobiling simply justifies and exacerbates the problem.  Even if you are just going to leave your snowmobile at Windy Pass and skin up from there.  Quite possibly a machine with more power than yours could have used your access track and then went on past you to ruin the slopes you intended to ski.
Secondly, this is an area that is known historically as non-motorized.  Skiers and snowshoers go to Hyak with the reasonable expectation of a quiet experience whether the Nordic Center is open or closed.  This should be respected.
Third, it is a reasonable day trip from plowed parking.  Why is a machine even necessary?
Fourth, and Roy knows this, there are many areas for snowmobile assist without any hint of conflict.  NC Highway, Icicle Creek, Cle Elum Valley to Van Epps region, Cooper Pass, etc.  I encourage snowmibile assisters to study maps because there are creative opportunities for great descents well beyond the distance a day tripping backcountry skier can access.  I don't want to give any away, but I'd be checking out Little Wenatchee River, Chiwawa River etc.
Lastly, we need an education and promotion of why areas within Commercial Permit boundaries i.e. ski area Nordic Centers should remain nonmotorized during the whole snow season.  This is also true of voluntary closure areas and obviously legal closure areas.  This is also true of areas managed as non-motorized by the forest service during the summer season.  For example, Alpine Lakes Wilderness has adjacent areas designated as nonmotorized in the summer, such as the high Teanaway.  When then does the snow season end and Spring hiking, mountaineering, and backcountry skiing begin?  For that window of time when the roads are melted out it is now common to be doing a hike for a mile or two, transitioning to ski or scrambling on the snow, and have highmarkers come whizzing past you in the upper basins, entering from over snow access higher upvalley.  This was not the intent of the Alpine Lakes Wilderness Act.  But snowmobiles did not have power and technology to do this when the Act was written.
This is not in indictment.  Thoughtful responses welcomed.
John

author=John_Morrow link=topic=4511.msg19221#msg19221 date=1145202918]
When then does the snow season end and Spring hiking, mountaineering, and backcountry skiing begin?  For that window of time when the roads are melted out it is now common to be doing a hike for a mile or two, transitioning to ski or scrambling on the snow, and have highmarkers come whizzing past you in the upper basins, entering from over snow access higher upvalley.  This was not the intent of the Alpine Lakes Wilderness Act.  But snowmobiles did not have power and technology to do this when the Act was written.
This is not in indictment.  Thoughtful responses welcomed.
John

Thanks for this John,

I would like to add one comment; whether it belongs here or should be transferred to another board I'll leave to Sir Charles.
In the Teanaway case, motorized access from up valley to the drainages to the east involves Wilderness tresspass. To my knowlege, it is not possible for machines to get well to the east without invading the ALW once those eastern trailheads are well melted out. In this case it's not an issue of choosing not to recognize voluntary NM status, but a punishable violation.

In getting a handle on these problems, I think it would be useful to know the reasoning of motorized users both of voluntary closure areas, and those areas that are just plain closed. Something more helpful than 'we didn't know'. I'm sure there are multiple reasons, but I can only speculate as to what they might be.

Larry

author=John_Morrow link=topic=4511.msg19221#msg19221 date=1145202918]
Thanks for the info.   Guess I will go hiking out east instead.
I would like to open a civil discussion about your snowmobile, though.  In general I believe the snowmobile assist community has a responsibility to carefully choose destinations before you go.  Cold Creek is an area that it simply is inappropriate.
Some reasons:
The Nordic Center has now reduced days of operation.  It is illegal to operate a snowmobile, not just when they are open, but at all during they're entire operating season.  Yes, you went thoughtfully after the grooming season ended.   But during the season, on days the center is closed, the groomed trails are getting poached by highmarker types going on to destroy slopes of Silver Peak.  Now that the Nordic Center does not operate Mon-Thurs this is getting common.  Any additional snowmobiling simply justifies and exacerbates the problem.  Even if you are just going to leave your snowmobile at Windy Pass and skin up from there.  Quite possibly a machine with more power than yours could have used your access track and then went on past you to ruin the slopes you intended to ski.
Secondly, this is an area that is known historically as non-motorized.  Skiers and snowshoers go to Hyak with the reasonable expectation of a quiet experience whether the Nordic Center is open or closed.  This should be respected.
Third, it is a reasonable day trip from plowed parking.  Why is a machine even necessary?
Fourth, and Roy knows this, there are many areas for snowmobile assist without any hint of conflict.  NC Highway, Icicle Creek, Cle Elum Valley to Van Epps region, Cooper Pass, etc.  I encourage snowmibile assisters to study maps because they are creative opportunities for great descents well beyond the distance a day tripping backcountry skier can access.  I don't want to give any away, but I'd be checking out Little Wenatchee River, Chiwawa River etc.
Lastly, we need an education and promotion of why areas within Commercial Permit boundaries i.e. ski area Nordic Centers should remain nonmotorized during the whole snow season.  This is also true of voluntary closure areas and obviously legal closure areas.  This is also true of areas managed as non-motorized by the forest service during the summer season.  For example, Alpine Lakes Wilderness has adjacent areas designated as nonmotorized in the summer, such as the high Teanaway.  When then does the snow season end and Spring hiking, mountaineering, and backcountry skiing begin?  For that window of time when the roads are melted out it is now common to be doing a hike for a mile or two, transitioning to ski or scrambling on the snow, and have highmarkers come whizzing past you in the upper basins, entering from over snow access higher upvalley.  This was not the intent of the Alpine Lakes Wilderness Act.  But snowmobiles did not have power and technology to do this when the Act was written.
This is not in indictment.  Thoughtful responses welcomed.
John

Geez, I wonder what the owners of Cascade Powder Cats would have to say on this subject? Can't we just all get along? I like the idea of accessiing terrain by snowmobile. As long as the driver is responsible , it shouldn't be a problem.

I think people who ski on those skinny track skis have a twisted view of other recreationalists. I was on my AT gear at The White Pass area, cruising on the "track" to get to a north bound area. I got some dirty looks from the spandex clad , skinny guys. What's up with that? I didn't even cruise in their skinnies. I went on my own path.

Bandit,
Please take a moment to closely read my words.  It is not an all or nothing proposition.  I get along with snowmobile assisted skiers, many are friends.  This is about where and why. 

Please do not simplify the argument.  There are areas appropriate for each use.  Quiet winter recreation seekers have a right to have some (not all) areas dedicated to such pursuit.  I intentially mentioned large acreages that are historically snowmobile assist in my post,to remain accessable to snowmobiles.

Please do not deflect the argument also.  Who knows why the White Pass area incident occured.  I would educate the skinny skiers that your thoughtful seperate track was in THEIR interest.  I personally thank you for that.

I noted that Jhamaker's group was responsibly riding.  Read my point.  It is about setting precedent.  Other less responsible riders follow.  My discussion is about areas close to plowed roads, accessable to nonmotorized day users, to be kept nonmotorized.

Cascade Powdercats are operating in an area of private land.  The shared USFS/private owner access road (maintenance costs) has historically been used by snowmobiles before Powdercats took operation there.  There is no conflict I am aware of unless that area is a jumping off point for snowmobile incursions into the adjacent wilderness.  In fact, Powdercats left the Stampede Pass area precisely because private use snowmobiles destroyed the skiing experience their clients were paying for.  Ask them.

Continue to use a snowmobile as you do, so long as you are obeying applicable laws.  I just ask that you leave some areas close to the plowed roads for quiet users to appreciate and go on to the legal terrain deeper in the hills that have groomed snowmobile access.

Sounds to me like you want it both ways.  You want turns in non motorized areas where high markers and non skiing snowmobilers are less likely to ruin the slopes you want to ski, but you don't want it closed to the snowmobile approach so you don't have to work as hard, as the rest of us on skis, to access the turns. 

I think it is easier for everyone to get along when all groups are following the rules or laws. I looked into the question of snowmobiles on Cold Creek Road and in Silver Peak basin a few years ago, and got a definite answer that snowmobles are prohibited at all times during the operating season of the XC trails. I believe that this might extend past the operating season of the lifts, but I'm not absolutely sure about that.

Perhaps jhamaker and partners checked into this and found that snomos are now permitted - it would be good to hear from them.

As long as the driver is responsible , it shouldn't be a problem.

I think that just about everyone would agree with this. But what does "being responsible" actually mean? To me it means more than just slowing down around non-motorized groups or driving carefully. Being responsible also means knowing the laws and rules and following them. This would include staying off roads/trails that are closed to motors, staying out of areas closed to motors, and knowing where Wilderness boundaries are and not ever motoring into Wilderness areas.

I think people who ski on those skinny track skis have a twisted view of other recreationalists.

Not sure where this is coming from? The people in the trip report were all on AT gear, and John and Larry don't typically post here about their adventures on "skinny track skis". I myself, on non-skinny non-track skis, have met plenty of skinny ski people on the Hyak trails and always had pleasant interactions with them. Never a dirty look, not once!

...the spandex clad , skinny guys. What's up with that?

Maybe this is what's up with that?

Charles, thank you for the succinct discussion regarding the law.  I discussed this very thing with Todd Stiles, winter rec coordinator for the Cle Elum District.  He referred to the new Special Uses Coord. on the MBSNF who administers the Summit Nordic Center permit.  This person is replacing retiring Larry Donovan.  At this point it is not known for certain if the Legal Closure extends beyond the operating season of the Nordic Center.  Hence, this is why my above thoughts were of a courtesy nature and not a legal one.  It is, however, illegal to snowmobile during the operating season regardless of whether the area is open to business.  Same as you found out a few years ago.  When I find out the answer I will post a random track.  I hope the answer will have definitive language pertaining to Mill Creek at Steven's Nordic as well.

author=John_Morrow link=topic=4511.msg19226#msg19226 date=1145215314]
Bandit,
Please take a moment to closely read my words.  It is not an all or nothing proposition.  I get along with snowmobile assisted skiers, many are friends.  This is about where and why. 

Please do not simplify the argument.  There are areas appropriate for each use.  Quiet winter recreation seekers have a right to have some (not all) areas dedicated to such pursuit.  I intentially mentioned large acreages that are historically snowmobile assist in my post,to remain accessable to snowmobiles.

Please do not deflect the argument also.  Who knows why the White Pass area incident occured.  I would educate the skinny skiers that your thoughtful seperate track was in THEIR interest.  I personally thank you for that.

I noted that Jhamaker's group was responsibly riding.  Read my point.  It is about setting precedent.  Other less responsible riders follow.  My discussion is about areas close to plowed roads, accessable to nonmotorized day users, to be kept nonmotorized.

Cascade Powdercats are operating in an area of private land.  The shared USFS/private owner access road (maintenance costs) has historically been used by snowmobiles before Powdercats took operation there.  There is no conflict I am aware of unless that area is a jumping off point for snowmobile incursions into the adjacent wilderness.  In fact, Powdercats left the Stampede Pass area precisely because private use snowmobiles destroyed the skiing experience their clients were paying for.  Ask them.

Continue to use a snowmobile as you do, so long as you are obeying applicable laws.  I just ask that you leave some areas close to the plowed roads for quiet users to appreciate and go on to the legal terrain deeper in the hills that have groomed snowmobile access.

Sounds to me like you want it both ways.  You want turns in non motorized areas where high markers and non skiing snowmobilers are less likely to ruin the slopes you want to ski, but you don't want it closed to the snowmobile approach so you don't have to work as hard, as the rest of us on skis, to access the turns. 

Personally, I like my AT gear to get where I am going. I don't mind if guys want to use the snowmobiles. As long as they abide by the laws.  I think it is a cool idea. If they are responsible users. The problem is, you get one bad apple, then everyone knows what happens after that, right?

Glenn Plake offers ski tours in The Ruby Mt area of east Nevada. The mode of transportation is the snowmobile. He sets up a base camp, complete with steak dinners and beer in the evenings. A pretty cool idea. Everyone has their own idea of what makes a fun outing. I think we should open our minds and not be so sour to other's outdoor pursuits.

As a side note. I paid my fee for using The White Pass "track" area, although I didn't technically use their "track". I was chastized for intruding on their exclusive area. Again, people don't over react to someone outside your elite sport.  Next time I'll just take off in the wild, and forget the groomers. LOL!!

I wish I was in the kind of shape some of those skinny-ski skinny guys and girls are, even if I might not choose their outfit!  Personally I've got a lot of respect for the aerobic/competitive sides of XC and enjoy joining these folks out on the trail.  My 2c are that Cold Creek/Silver Peak should not see snow machine traffic except for rescue and safety work. 

    I just registered and am hoping to comment since I am the snomobile owner. 

    I appreciate the comment and agree.  We could have skied Mt Margaret and been where Snomobiles are appropriate.  We could have gotten just as wet and miserable.

    Machines are going places not suitable for them and have witnessed the evidence near Ingals Peak where they enter the ALW.  I write letters about it , to the appropriate land managers. 

    I also have taken the machine into Gallagher Head Lake, a questionable practice, and skied Hawkins and Esmeralda.  This I may continue to do, but I won't be going up the road to Ollalie Meadows with the machine.

    There are a lot of machines using ski areas whren the season ends , so we have our work cut out for us discouraging that.

I agree with the majority of folks on this board that sno-mo's should not be up in the silver basin or over the line in the teanaway. I have carried out alot of trash in the past from bilers in the lake ingalls area. I do have to admit that the sno-mo windshield I found made for good glissading. There are areas where the trash and noise should not be allowed...there are plenty of other places to visit. It seems as if the issue is that there is really no way to regulate this type of activity. Is it that the access allowed to bilers, closest to there homes, does not provide enough of a thrill? Do they have to travel far to get to decent launching grounds? Where is the largest population of users located in washington state? How can you keep an expanding population happy?

Thanks John for all the good writing.  I live up at Hyak and enjoy ski touring Silver.  Unfortunately, at this time of year, some of my neigbors seem to think it is okay to destroy the cross country trails and high mark the heck out of silver basin.  Unfortunately it only takes one group of snowmobilers to destroy the surface of the cross country trail.  Even though the ski area has stopped grooming, the trails would normally stay very usable for the cross country set, but for the snowmobilers.  According to my 'biler neighbor, Silver is closed all year to snowmobiles, but the map that designates the boundaries has not been updated/is incorrect and shows that they can access this area.  I think better signage on access points would definitly be a start.  The real solution is enforcement!  Good luck!    Snowmobilers have designated areas, like most of the East side of the cascades!  I think it makes sense to have a few areas for non-motorized travel.  A little respect  PLEASE.

author=khyak link=topic=4511.msg19239#msg19239 date=1145251039]
Thanks John for all the good writing.  I live up at Hyak and enjoy ski touring Silver.  Unfortunately, at this time of year, some of my neigbors seem to think it is okay to destroy the cross country trails and high mark the heck out of silver basin.  Unfortunately it only takes one group of snowmobilers to destroy the surface of the cross country trail.  Even though the ski area has stopped grooming, the trails would normally stay very usable for the cross country set, but for the snowmobilers.  According to my 'biler neighbor, Silver is closed all year to snowmobiles, but the map that designates the boundaries has not been updated/is incorrect and shows that they can access this area.  I think better signage on access points would definitly be a start.  The real solution is enforcement!  Good luck!    Snowmobilers have designated areas, like most of the East side of the cascades!  I think it makes sense to have a few areas for non-motorized travel.  A little respect  PLEASE.

How about MRNP? Is 241,992 acres enough non-motorized area for you? How about The Olympic National Park? How about The North Cascades National Park? How much land do you need to XC ski?

author=Bandit link=topic=4511.msg19245#msg19245 date=1145265657]
How about MRNP? Is 241,992 acres enough non-motorized area for you? How about The Olympic National Park? How about The North Cascades National Park? How much land do you need to XC ski?

Mr. Bandit,

Perhaps it might help in understanding your position on these matters if you might be willing to fill us in a little on whether or not you ride snowmobiles as part of your skiing, or other. If you do, what sort of activity do you undertake? Would it be important for you to be able to ride on the XC trails mentioned in this post in the spring? Would it be your position that formal Wilderness areas (like the Alpine Lakes Wilderness) should be open to motorized use - the National Parks being more than enough area for NM use?

LR

Is skinny skiing on ungroomed/packed trails at Snoq Pass elevations even worthwhile this late in the season? It seems like skinny skis would be digging big gooopy trenches. I'm no skinny skier, but even skiing on 95mm waist teles the other day was a challenge.

author=Bandit link=topic=4511.msg19225#msg19225 date=1145213392]
I like the idea of accessiing terrain by snowmobile. As long as the driver is responsible , it shouldn't be a problem.

I like the idea too. Just as long as the operator keeps the machine where it belongs - on low elevation logging roads and well a way from where I'm skiing, or ever intend to ski.

author=Larry_R link=topic=4511.msg19247#msg19247 date=1145277789]
Mr. Bandit,

Perhaps it might help in understanding your position on these matters if you might be willing to fill us in a little on whether or not you ride snowmobiles as part of your skiing, or other. If you do, what sort of activity do you undertake? Would it be important for you to be able to ride on the XC trails mentioned in this post in the spring? Would it be your position that formal Wilderness areas (like the Alpine Lakes Wilderness) should be open to motorized use - the National Parks being more than enough area for NM use?

LR

I don't snow mobile now, but am thinking of it in the future. The idea of accessing backcountry with a sled is appealing. Obviously, sensitivity to the enviornment is paramount. I believe in the no trace theory. I leave an area cleaner than it was when I went in. The idea of going into a remote area, setting up a base camp, and then skinning out to near by peaks is , could be nirvana. Using a sled is the way to go. I'm not talking about ripping into an area at 60 m.p.h. But rather, cruise in , enjoying the scenery at 5-10 m.p.h.

It comes down to being an adult and being responsible. Respecting other outdoor enthusiats, so everyone can enjoy their adventures, however they wish to experience the outdoors.

No. I would not want sleds into sensitive areas. I believe we have enough forest service roads in the USFS acreage to serve that. Leave the National Parks for solitude, non-motorized travel as much as possible. Wilderness areas also should be protected from the sleds.

I know that some "sled heads" can be jerks. I work with one. And he is an ass. Like I said before. One bad apple ..........you know the rest of that story.

author=Bandit link=topic=4511.msg19245#msg19245 date=1145265657]
How about MRNP? Is 241,992 acres enough non-motorized area for you? How about The Olympic National Park? How about The North Cascades National Park? How much land do you need to XC ski?

How many acres do the snow machines need? 100% it seems  There a very few areas left that are "machine free" -- but sledders can't seem to leave the few remaining scraps alone. 

FYI: Snow machines are permitted on a number snow covered roads in Mt Rainer NP -- I believe Phil Fortier post a TR about using a snow machine to approach Glacier Basin during February a couple years ago.   Sleds regularly traverse HWY-20 over Washington Pass during the winter. 

[Edited to retain the useful part, which was most of the post. --Charles]

A number of related topics have been discussed here. Not everyone is in agreement on everything, which is not surprising, and despite this, the discussion has remained mostly civil. Let's keep it that way.

The original issues that came up in this thread were whether it is (1) legal, and (2) acceptable, to use a snowmobile on the Cold Creek road where the winter-groomed XC trail runs. The issue of snow machines using traditional or designated non-motorized areas has come up several times here, and given that this is a backcountry skiing forum, the issue usually elicits some strong opinions. It seems, however, that there is a general consensus that motorized use of the Cold Creek road during the snow season does not seem right, given the traditional non-motorized uses of the corridor.

There still remains the question of the legality of using a snowmobile on the Cold Creek road. John is checking with the FS about current policy, but if khyak's info is correct, then I agree that perhaps what is needed is some/better signage. And maybe an educational program for local residents? Block Watch for the beginning of the road?

Thanks to Roy M. for posting. I'm still curious about whether your group had any definite info about using your snowmobile on the Cold Creek road? Also, I vaguely recall that there may be some sort of signage near the beginning of the road (near Hyak), but I wonder if your group saw any signs that might be relevant?

author=Randy link=topic=4511.msg19281#msg19281 date=1145331945]
How many acres do the snow machines need? 100% it seems  There a very few areas left that are "machine free" -- but sledders can't seem to leave the few remaining scraps alone. 

FYI: Snow machines are permitted on a number snow covered roads in Mt Rainer NP -- I believe Phil Fortier post a TR about using a snow machine to approach Glacier Basin during February a couple years ago.   Sleds regularly traverse HWY-20 over Washington Pass during the winter. 

[Edited to retain the useful part, which was most of the post. --Charles]

I don't see any problem with users such as this as long as they stay responsible. The idea of going deep into an area in the winter is exciting. It's just a different form of adventure that we should explore. For most people who only have two days off a week from their daily jobs, quicker access to the mountains is appealing. Especially, if someone wanted to do a winter ascent of Rainier. JMHO.

In response to khyak's comment that "I think it makes sense to have a few areas for non-motorized travel", Bandit wrote:

"How about MRNP? Is 241,992 acres enough non-motorized area for you? How about The Olympic National Park? How about The North Cascades National Park? How much land do you need to XC ski?"

Perhaps I might make a comment or two. I would like to take these questions at face value in part because the views implied by the questions reflect those promoted by national organizations such as the Blue Ribbon Coalition. Also, I think that my first reaction that these questions were posted in a somewhat sarcastic vein does a disservice to Bandit. 

For those not familiar with the BRC and their values and mission, you might start here:

http://www.sharetrails.org/index.cfm?page=5

The following quote is found here: ""We are recreationists of all types, working together to preserve our precious natural heritage." We campaign to replace "user conflict" with "user cooperation". All recreationists must learn to share trails and facilities. All must learn acceptance and good manners."

Although the quote does not specify to whom it is directed, it would seem to have the greatest impact on non-motorized users. It is speaking to those of us who want a recreational experience free of what we consider unpleasant aspects of motorized sport. That is, we must learn to share the areas where we ski with motorized vehicles. Their goal is that we must also learn acceptance of such usage, and those who do it.

In my case at least, I must say that I think that may take a fair amount of time.

The suggestion implied by Bandit's questions, and to my reading also supported by the BRC, is that those wishing a non-motorized experience should go to one of the National Parks in the state. Other areas will be 'shared'. If this happened, what would be the effect?

Consider travel times to park areas suitable for winter recreation from major metropolitan centers. I suppose that MRNP would be the major draw. That's about 3 hours driving time one way from Seattle. I don't know what sort of opportunities are available in the NCNP during winter, but the travel time is significant in any case. 

Many TAYers would think nothing of 6 hours driving for a day of skiing, but we are a select group. NM users consist of young families learning the out-of-doors, casual XC skiers, snowshoers, first timers, etc. A 6 hour drive would eliminate a lot of usage. Perhaps that's the goal. By the way, the reduction of that 6 hour drive to Rainier was one of the main selling points when the first Crystal Mountain stock was offered.

And once you get to the park, the total acreage is not an indication of suitable terrain. Plowed access is necessary, eliminating large chunks of the parks. Once at the parking lot, there is only a limited area that can be utilized based on the limitations of the human body. Say 5 miles and 3000 feet elevation gain might represent the area available to the average day user. Far less for families.

That vast acreage is not quite so vast in the winter. Additionally each sub-group, from beginning XC skiers to accomplished racers to fish scale skiers to fish scale skiers with joke boots, to telemarkers and randonee skiers will desire different sorts of terrain. Would it be crowded? Maybe not. After a few long drives to ski quietly in a now crowded area, many might take up other activities. A successful policy from the BRC perspective I guess.

Larry

Main thing: I'm glad no one got burried last wk-end.

Wow! What a discussion! 

My2Cents on snowmachines, what skiers and sled-heads should know-
The tracks from a sled, esp on groomed, when frozen, can litteraly be *deadly* for skinny skiers.  When not frozen, the sled tracks are mearly dangerous and akward as hell.
Of the 120 snow-parks, 40 are for non-motorized use.
The state grooms 10 to 100 times the number of miles for snowmachines vs skiis.
There is an add'l $20 /yr to use the best groomed ski trails.

I am a heavy ski user (seven types of skiis used regularly).  I get out as much in the winter as in the summer.
Keep designated areas designated, multiple use areas open to all.  I was not at all fond of snowmachines on logging rds untill I discovered they groom quite a few of them the roads. Groomed rds make  very respectable skating lanes.  I've yet to accidently ski off the rds or into a snowmachine, and they have yet to hit me.  Some of the machines are getting very quiet.  I did have one sneak up on me once.  The same folks to tip well and say "sorry" and "thank you" will, when sleding, pass the "slow down" signal down the line.  I return the favor by holding up fingers to indicate how many skiers are behind me (there are rarely any in front of me, and the spred can be far).

We did see signs of high-marking on Silver Pk, but only one other skier (saw tracks) was desparate enough to follow us.

The number one group using snow machines over the (Mt. Catherine Loop) is the summit area ski patrol. 

Birch Hill x-c ski area, Fairbanks, AK ( http://nscfairbanks.net/gallery/webcam.html ) still has plenty of snow, and about 18hrs of daylight.  It's getting warm here though, I have to use violet kick-wax now unless I get up early and ski w/ blue over the top of the hoar growing on the tracks.

In regard to the snowmobile and skier designated-use areas:

It seems to me that more signage may be helpful, and more hint of enforcement. I see a few tracks from snowmobiles violating (by over a mile) the designated skiing areas in my favorite touring area. I also know of an area where snowmobilers climb up to 7000' regularly (for maybe the past 15 + years) in the Wilderness to drop off skiers on a yo-yo circuit. I would like to see a little more emphasis on enforcement. Some snowmobilers may need to hear some emphasis, some may just be ignorant of designated uses, as some skiers appear to be at times.

On the other hand, perhaps one may attempt to be civil and respect the legitimate rights of snowmobilers. I snowmobile to ski sometimes. About a month ago, I loaded up my skis and pack and was going to go out to ski, and had a tow rope. I waited for some skiers getting ready nearby since I was in a charitable mood and thought maybe I would tow them a mile or two across the flat to get to their tour (instead of them walking in the midst of zooming snowmobiles for a mile or more). Anyway, before I could strike up a conversation one of them made a smart ass comment about me snowmobiling to ski...oh well, it did not make me cry, but what a punk (I guess they were perhaps not interested in a snomo tow anyway).

Unfortunately this year the Hog Loppet organizers improperly took away the entire Blewett snowmobile unloading area for the day, unnecessarily and without approval of USFS. It is also dissappointing that USFS did not manage the competing users. I was told by a USFS person that this issue will be dealt with- good. There are a lot of bad feelings among the snowmobilers, and many complaints according to the USFS about this. Too bad. The snowmobiler lobby has political power. One local Wenatchee State Rep. sells snowmobiles. The reason that I point this out, is that I fear repercussions that would affect my precious designated-skiing areas that are near the highway.

Defending another's legitimate uses may also help to bolster one's own legitimate uses. Responsibly lobbying for one's own interest in a civil manner is obviously important also. This may also illuminate the area use designations and bring a helpful focus to the issue.

For me it's all about exploration.  Perhaps  Sled-heads' desire to go to new places brings them into conflict w/ skiers.

Tell me more about the HogLoppet conflict.  It always seemed to make sence to me to close off Sauk P. E. for a one day event as ther eare so many more skiers than sleds that day.  It is the one time a year that they try to groom the whole ridge.  But you wanna be in  the fore-front and finnish before 9am if you can because all that nice grooming gets trashed by sleds pretty early.  When on skiis, I certainly would not ski down a course being used for a sled race.  Seems turnabout would be fair.

The Hog Loppet is a great event for a lot of skiers. No problem with it. The HL skiers are  on designated snowmobile terrain for a day. Fine too. The road is groomed constantly- once or twice or more weekly for the snowmobiles. I and others ski parts of the road on some non-motorized tours all winter. Snowmobilers share the road with skiers and in my experience are careful. It is not correct that it is just groomed for the HL, just groomed and ski track added by the organizer. Snowmobilers pay $33 per year to license the snowmobile, which pays for parking and grooming. I ski and snowmobile along with many other regular users all winter. The crowd skiing the Hog Loppet are, in fact, a minority of users of the area, and are engaging in an event on a "shared corridor." No, it is not reasonable to exclude other users during the Hog Loppett, that would favor a small interest group unreasonably for such a large area of Forest winter recreation (Mission Ridge to Blewett Pass). Perhaps some think that shared use is defined as "me first." In my view, the Hog Loppet is a bit of a faux ski tour since it just follows a groomed road through many miles of great country with many wonderful trails.

I happened to tour in the area on the day of Hog Loppet as I do weekly or more all winter. That day I chose to walk up Diamond Head instead of using my snowmobile to go elsewhere on the road to start touring.

Since Leavenworth Winter Sports Club, of which we hold a family alpine/ nordic pass, was the organizer this year, I was familiar with some of the folks and tried to explain the conflict. There is a turn-around that is signed to be kept clear for unloading, users sort of informally police each other. Also, I have seen tickets written by the Sheriff Deputy for parking in the turn around and also for no Sno Park permit. The HL vehicles blocked the turn around, and the available parking was mostly taken by HL vehicles, a canopy, fire pit, etc. I tried to explain that there is parking just down the road that the HL cars could go to. The snowmobilers cannot lawfully unload down the road and ride up the road. The situation caused the parking of snowmobile rigs along the highway, creating a hazard and causing bad feelings among those who pay for and use the Sno Park legitimately and regularly. Since there was plenty of room on the snow around the plowed parking, and it was all already packed firmly, it was unneccessary for LWSC and HL to take up the parking area for parking and activities. Skiers, for goodness sake- why do they have to stand around on asphalt when there was so much open snow-covered area surrounding the asphalt plowed parking area?

In summary, there are two behaviors that I find particularly problematic:

1) Recreational users not following the designated uses. Since a skier is allowed to go anywhere, this generally applies to snowmobilers who invade the large no snowmobile recreation areas. Such areas exist along a few miles of the highway on the pass, including some good skiing and extensive trail systems. Snowmobilers are restricted to one road through those corridors, the road that some suggest also taking over for the HL.

2) Behavior that infers that human-powered recreationists automatically assume superiority and expression of condescension to motor-powered recreationists. I easily prefer skiing to snowmobiling, but suggest that  bc skiers wake up- there are many more snowmobilers, and they have political clout.