carving; tele vs. AT

Been skiing tele for 25 years. Alpine before that. Added AT in about 3-4 years ago.

I find that I'm able to rail turns much easier when I do alpine turns and I have been wondering about the mechanics of the two turning styles. Mind you, I'm comparing tele turns and alpine turns on the same skis (volkl gotamas, which have continuous rocker). Is there an inherent disadvantage to a tele turn, where the two skis are not side-by-side, in terms of the ability to get the skis up on edge and hold them there?

Most of the tele skiers I see at the resort slide through turns rather than carving cleanly (uh, myself included).

It just got me thinking. Any discussion?

Dave.

These skiers seem to be carving on freewheel gear



Remember telemark is not a license to suck

A lazy Saturday morning answer
Both styles can rail .

A lazy Saturday morning answer
Both styles can rail .

[/qupote]...why fix the heel....I don't see a problem..😉😋😁

Yeah, I've seen those clips before. On my more traditional cambered skis, the playing field seems pretty level. On the gotamas, it's really different however. Super easy to get both on edge with alpine turns; hard to get the rear ski on edge with a tele turn. So, the full rocker is an interesting variable.

D.

... On the gotamas...

With a 107 mm waist, railing turns on firm snow is an illusion.

The marketing hype might tell you that gotamas will slay hard snow, but it just means that you can skid down the corduroy with better control than on a full reverse rocker ski.

Exact same ski history profile as Dave. The foot carves the ski differently tele vs. AT. The entire leg angulation is different, just like the foot pressure and motion, standing on the middle of the two skis parallel compared to the back tele ski. Don't really know why, but for me, the angulation control with tele falls off above a certain waist size while is continues unencumbered fatter on AT. 112 is as fat a waist as I can use tele as an effective multi conditions tool.

Interesting comments, all.

The gotamas (bought 5-6 years ago) were my first foray into modern skis (previous pair was so, so old...) and was pre-AT for me.

Three years ago, I added in LaSpo Hi-5 and G3 Zenoxide carbon, both of which are similar waist but traditional camber. I find that I prefer them, but I only have AT bindings on them so have not tried tele turns on them. I wonder if I would find as great a difference between the two turns as I do on the gotamas.

It would be fun to find a full service demo day with both AT and tele rigs to try out.

These skiers seem to be carving on freewheel gear

Remember telemark is not a license to suck

If you watch that video closely, and compare it with scenes of modern alpine racing, there's no comparison between the quality of the carving that parallel skiers and telemark skiers achieve. Those telemark racers (impressive as they are) are losing their carve a LOT in that video.

I think the telemark position is at fault. In a telemark, it's very difficult to pressure both skis the same. One ski is going to have more pressure on the tip, and the other is going to have more pressure on the tail. This makes it difficult to find the sweet spot on both skis. You really have to hit that spot to hold a carve in high-level skiing on hard snow.

So, yeah, I think the telemark turn is at a disadvantage when it comes to carving cleanly.

I have rarely been able to carve on telemark skis. For that reason, I don't tele in area. I find it unsatisfying to skid on groom.

If the snow is just right I can carve on tele. But it has to allow a couple inches of penetration without crushing. Rare.

Also, I'm not nearly as strong at tele as alpine. But I also believe the turn stance is inferior. I don't believe that the forces you can generate and withstand in a skeletally strong position can be replicated from a crouch.

There is no logical or practical reason for using telemark gear. However the feeling of tele skiing well is remarkable. Many people on telemark gear don't execute it very well. It takes more skill, strength and determination than fixed heel gear.

It's also easier on tele to get your skis not parallel which results in one carving and one skidding. This happens to me all the time and I've definitely had to focus on keeping the skis parallel for a good tele carve. When I want to go super fast and feel that grippy hooked in carve I just alpine turn (on my tele bindings). Fun to do both.

many people can't execute parrallel as well as can't execute tele...including myself. maybe they are working on their stivets!! i have trouble tele carving into hockey stops...must be bad position...

What you all say may be true about a narrower range of suitably loading for carves, but I've always thought that Tele is a better position for running gates..

Is there an inherent disadvantage to a tele turn?

TROLL!!!

There is no logical or practical reason for using telemark gear.  However the feeling of tele skiing well is remarkable.  Many people on telemark gear don't execute it very well.  It takes more skill, strength and determination than fixed heel gear.

Having just picked up AT gear last year and going that way after 30 yr of tele - with no alpine experience, gotta say those fixed heels make a difference on edging and man, they get around qicker.

But I''ve noticed in transitions for up and downs or awkward stepups and such, the AT gear is a pain - they flop around more at the hinge while the tele still has some tension- or it's easier (with tele) to just flip the switch with a pole end to lock to downhill mode to get up and over some little hill. It's a pain to bend down and rework the ATs.

That said - the AT boots and bindings are anti-gravity compared to the heavy tele setup

Heavy tele setup?  I've gone completely around the bend (and potentially off my rocker) and am into the end of my first season on the lightest tele set up I now own - a pair of full leather alpina tele boots, simple three pin cables and ultra light Hagan skis.  I think they weigh a combined 5 pounds - lighter than any at/snowboard/plastic tele set up I've ever owned.

This setup by no means makes me a better tele skier, light and super easy on the hike in and climb up, but ever so sensitive to the skills (or lack thereof) of the oarsman.  Like a wooden dory on the Grand Canyon, there may be better and certainly safer ways down the river, but none that get you closer to the environment you're in.  I never really was all that great a tele skier, the allure of confidence in jump turning in a couloir made me grab my AT set up or snowboard way too often to improve my drop knee to more than "fair" in the best of conditions, but as I age, and the true definition of "pleasure" for cascading down a snow-filled slope foments and changes within me, I know what I can do on my snowboard or AT skis - anything, in just about any condition on any mountain slope - but on my light tele gear, well, that question is a long way away from being answered.

I am now super sensitive to the snow conditions, cautious of steep terrain and tight mandatory expert skills; the lightness of my gear a gift to uphill travel and long approaches and also ensures I am close to the mountain's vibrations, good or ill, and skiing once again like I am a teenager learning everything anew.

When I finally do get those skis to carve around together in a sinuous "s" with no wash outs, in groomer, ice or soft new snow, those are the fleeting moments that will last all summer long.

Long live my quest on tele skis, may it last another 24 years.

Heavy tele setup?  I've gone completely around the bend (and potentially off my rocker) and am into the end of my first season on the lightest tele set up I now own - a pair of full leather alpina tele boots, simple three pin cables and ultra light Hagan skis.  I think they weigh a combined 5 pounds - lighter than any at/snowboard/plastic tele set up I've ever owned


Long live my quest on tele skis, may it last another 24 years.

Just for you MW88888888!

Having just picked up AT gear last year and going that way after 30 yr of tele - with no alpine experience, gotta say those fixed heels make a difference on edging and man, they get around qicker.

But I''ve noticed in transitions for up and downs or awkward stepups and such, the AT gear is a pain - they flop around more at the hinge while the tele still has some tension- or it's easier (with tele) to just flip the switch with a pole end to lock to downhill mode to get up and over some little hill.  It's a pain to bend down and rework the ATs. 

That said - the AT boots and bindings are anti-gravity compared to the heavy tele setup

Yeah -- I first gave AT gear a try about six years ago after being exclusively tele since 1971 -- Tele gear in the last decade has been getting heavier and heavier while AT gear has been getting lighter and lighter.

I thought I could just lock and load -- but it wasn't that simple -- there were adjustments I needed to make -- e.g. with the more upright AT stance I needed to learn to anticipate dips and bumps more -- with tele I could more just stride through -- I ended up doing a number of unplanned somersaults the first day back on fixed heel gear.

I like the B & D Designs Leash -- for me it makes transitions worry free as it allows skis to be removed without detaching the leash.  

The amazing amount of ankle rotation that SkiMo boots have significantly improves how quickly I can move uphill compared to my old plastic boot tele setups (even with bindings like the Voile Switchback)  -- heck they tour better than my old Merrill Ultras leather lace up boots -- and they are lighter as well.

Heavy tele setup?  I've gone completely around the bend (and potentially off my rocker) and am into the end of my first season on the lightest tele set up I now own - a pair of full leather alpina tele boots, simple three pin cables and ultra light Hagan skis.  I think they weigh a combined 5 pounds - lighter than any at/snowboard/plastic tele set up I've ever owned.

...

FWIW: My light AT setup tips the scales at 2265 gr per foot -- 950gr for Scarpa Alien boots, 145gr for Ski Trab race bindings, 1100 gr for some old Karhu Ursa's and 70 gr for 100% mohair skins.

Ditto on the weight. For any kind of steep or deep - comparable tele gear weighs so much more than AT. I still have a set of skinnies and leather boots somewhere, but I just don't go out to tour I guess. Well maybe the Hog Loppet sometime, but otherwise they are collecting dust.

With all the going back and forth between AT and Tele, how about that first turn of the day on AT, when you mistakenly think you're on Tele. Hahaha...i nearly knock myself down now and then.

Heavy tele setup?  I've gone completely around the bend (and potentially off my rocker) and am into the end of my first season on the lightest tele set up I now own - a pair of full leather alpina tele boots, simple three pin cables and ultra light Hagan skis.  I think they weigh a combined 5 pounds - lighter than any at/snowboard/plastic tele set up I've ever owned.

This setup by no means makes me a better tele skier, light and super easy on the hike in and climb up, but ever so sensitive to the skills (or lack thereof) of the oarsman.  Like a wooden dory on the Grand Canyon, there may be better and certainly safer ways down the river, but none that get you closer to the environment you're in.  I never really was all that great a tele skier, the allure of confidence in jump turning in a couloir made me grab my AT set up or snowboard way too often to improve my drop knee to more than "fair" in the best of conditions, but as I age, and the true definition of "pleasure" for cascading down a snow-filled slope foments and changes within me, I know what I can do on my snowboard or AT skis - anything, in just about any condition on any mountain slope - but on my light tele gear, well, that question is a long way away from being answered.

I am now super sensitive to the snow conditions, cautious of steep terrain and tight mandatory expert skills; the lightness of my gear a gift to uphill travel and long approaches and also ensures I am close to the mountain's vibrations, good or ill, and skiing once again like I am a teenager learning everything anew.

When I finally do get those skis to carve around together in a sinuous "s" with no wash outs, in groomer, ice or soft new snow, those are the fleeting moments that will last all summer long.

Long live my quest on tele skis, may it last another 24 years.
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By George I think you've got it!

TROLL!!!

Praxis Rx

I think the telemark position is at fault. In a telemark, it's very difficult to pressure both skis the same. One ski is going to have more pressure on the tip, and the other is going to have more pressure on the tail. This makes it difficult to find the sweet spot on both skis. You really have to hit that spot to hold a carve in high-level skiing on hard snow.

Nailed it, but it IS truly a thing of beauty to see super tele skiers like Matt Macartney or Danny Walton in the fall line on a run like Breakover or Employee Housing at Crystal. I find on either Alpine or AT gear that over accentuating the inside ski unweight, similar to Tele, helps maintain control in gnarly snow or steep little chutes and it is not quite as demanding as a full hop turn.

Great thread!!

My carving AT set up is a Stockli Laser SC, dynafits mounted on a race plate. Pretty sweet!