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Author Topic: helli ski info  (Read 13647 times)
snojones
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helli ski info
« on: 03/19/18, 12:54 PM »

So did helliski north cascades get censored?
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flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #1 on: 03/19/18, 06:41 PM »

Appears 86’d and relocated to the mothership from Wyoming.
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Randy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #2 on: 03/19/18, 07:55 PM »

"Freeski" is now working on getting banned over on NWHikers

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1120678#1120678
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shred
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #3 on: 03/19/18, 08:02 PM »

I feel bad for the guy. I think we should all pitch in and treat him to a day of Heli skiing.
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markharf
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #4 on: 03/20/18, 12:15 AM »

I’m not privy to the thinking of current owner or moderators, and I agree that it would help if we knew what causes people to be banned from this site. This happens so seldom that I doubt a bit of clarifying would take much effort.

It does seem clear to me—if not to the previous poster—that this particular ban came about due to repeated, persistent attacks and thread hijacks over an extended period of time. On an unrelated forum where I still help moderate, we ban people very reluctantly, and only when entreaties to play by the rules and not drive other members away have had no effect. That sure seems to have been the case here.

In other words, I don’t think it’s the content that was found objectionable—if that were the case a ban would have come long ago. Rather, it was the manner of presentation and its effect on this community. Conspiracy theories and accusations about who the site owner knows, favors or is protecting aren’t really necessary.

Just my thoughts on the matter, and no more or less valid than anyone else’s.

Mark
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cumulus
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #5 on: 03/20/18, 05:49 AM »

can't say I miss the ranting but also agree with what KLW and markharf are saying. It would be good for the TAY community to get some clarification on this authoritarian move... seems extreme to remove all of his posts.

What exactly warranted that?

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Stefan
flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #6 on: 03/20/18, 06:25 AM »

^^ power move^^

freeheli has found a safe place to drive the drivel at the mothership.
his whine won’t play well but won’t butthurt the heli dentites either.

let’s talk about the best route thru the kendall stumps again
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rlsg
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #7 on: 03/20/18, 08:52 AM »

He probably hurt the wrong person's feelings...politics makes strange bed fellows?

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rlsg
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #8 on: 03/20/18, 08:54 AM »

Back in the '60 s logging was king and could do no wrong...
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maximusj
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #9 on: 03/20/18, 09:08 AM »


freeheli has found a safe place to drive the drivel at the mothership.
his whine won’t play well but won’t butthurt the heli dentites either.


Ooh, that has some entertainment potential. I've not heard anything from him yet over there, but I'll look forward to it. Or maybe he'll get locked in the padded room...
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Good2Go
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #10 on: 03/20/18, 12:34 PM »

Back in the '60 s logging was king and could do no wrong...


You're seriously equating NCH to logging in the 60s?  Have you been smoking the same stuff as Freeski?

Let's review some of his delusions and falsehoods:

1) NCH buzzed him with their heli, with the intent to harm him.
2) NWAC is a commercial organization (wrong!) that is biased toward the guiding industry, and intentionally hides their "near misses" to protect them from bad publicity or embarrassment.
3) The NCH heli is a danger to all, due to the noise.  He postulated that this likely causes temporary disorientation and/or brain damage.
4) People rely on his field observations posted on NWAC to make real time terrain choices around WA Pass.  Had they just left his bogus posting up, it would likely have prevented a death.
5) The NWAC repository of "near misses" (does that even exist?) are widely utilized by people to make informed decisions about whether to sign up w/ NCH or hire a guide around WA Pass.
6)  He understands snow stability and knows more about what is safe to ski around WA Pass than anybody else. Any accidents up there are the result of not being as knowledgeable as him.
7) He is entitled to ski the Loup whenever he f'ing pleases, regardless of whether it is closed. He equated this to his parents' marching for civil rights in the 60s.
Cool Plowing the highway to provide skiers and others with access higher up the valley (as the DOT did this year) would take away valuable resources from elsewhere and put "the children" at risk.
9) He claims to have personally warned me about an avy danger that existed at WA Pass, after I reported triggering one on here (without consequence).  This did not happen and his insistence that it did is both crazy and creepy AF. 

I'm just working off memory here, so I probably missed out on some other doozies.  As for his views, I'm sure the people who think they have any merit will continue to represent them adequately on here. 
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rlsg
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #11 on: 03/20/18, 12:59 PM »

I'm sorry..cutting those trees is not that big o deal...it is a renewable source...I don't smoke...what does he smoke..do you recommend it?


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Good2Go
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #12 on: 03/20/18, 01:11 PM »

I'm sorry..cutting those trees is not that big o deal...it is a renewable source...I don't smoke...what does he smoke..do you recommend it?




Apologies if i misinterpreted.  I cannot recommend whatever he is smoking.
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NH-S
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #13 on: 03/20/18, 06:00 PM »

For the record...

In real life HFNC (Chris) is a really nice guy who will show you the goods, give the beta, and even provide a tow when you're big miles from your destination.

While he isn't a great internet community member, he's a pretty damn good real community member.
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BillK
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #14 on: 03/20/18, 06:12 PM »

I don't doubt it....that came through at times in his posts...now you know how he really thinks and operates when anonymous.  Manipulative and opportunistic
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flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #15 on: 03/20/18, 07:04 PM »

sounds like a typical day at tgr
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pipedream
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #16 on: 03/20/18, 10:25 PM »

This thread's not even 36 hours old and you're already throwing the forum administration under the bus...

Maybe our fearless leader is out enjoying the sunshine and healthy snowpack like the rest of you should be?

Last time I checked, this forum and its associated website are run entirely by volunteers. When's the last time you gave back to this community? Take a lap, all of you...
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Moral of story is don't ski when you can snowboard
cumulus
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #17 on: 03/21/18, 10:47 AM »

wow, only 36 hours and the hyperbole flies...  "Crickets from management" is hardly "throwing the forum administration under the bus." 

I get BillK being thrown under the bus...  maybe the two got conflated?  Wink Cry

As for the administration, of course they're watching.  Maybe there's just no good response... overreaching authority is certainly part of the 'new' administrations style and history.
My own (unfortunate) experience has been that rather than engage with the community directly their first instinct is to cover their tracks. I get there's a lot of national precedence for that of late...but it certainly doesn't promote a sense of community.

anyhow, you're right about the skiing part, it's fun! sun is out... 

spring makes the flowers grow  Smiley


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Stefan
gravitymk
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #18 on: 03/21/18, 04:32 PM »

Banning or suspending someone for pissing off the community or breaking the posted rules is one thing. Deleting every single thing the guy ever posted is a whole new level of bullshit moderation I've never quite seen the likes of.

(not necessarily directed to the author of the quoted post above)
While removing all of his threads could be considered an over reaction and overzealous use of the ban hammer, the owners of the site don't owe an explanation to anyone.  That said, if this place is turning into something that has outlived it's usefulness (Which would be a pity given the amount of information that would be lost if it went away), start something new, or become part of the mod team and effect positive change.
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mosetick
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #19 on: 03/21/18, 05:28 PM »

I know this is a controversial issue. FreeSki / HFNC was causing a lot of problems here in RandomTracks for a long time. He was also keeping some momentum here as well, but much of it in a controversial manner. Deleting all his threads was probably overkill. Select moderation would have been better. Marcus and I did not discuss the topic long enough before the delete button was pressed. Not an excuse, but wanted to give some insight into the situation.
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flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #20 on: 03/21/18, 08:01 PM »

I can appreciate that. Once I deleted a pretty vulgar pic that bunny profane plastered in a 9/11 memorial thread and he about lost his mind. I didn’t give it much thought when I pushed the delete button, it just felt good. He later re posted the pic and called me all sort of vulgarity and nonsenses. I just took it as part of the job. I’d probably ski with him but first I’d give him a piece of my mind and be careful on the offload ramp if we took a chair together. My point is, we didn’t ban his entire history and really did nothing else. He’s still a know it all east coast local but not as much a dick. problem solved and maybe a win for everyone.
did you consider a time out? works ok for us
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Erased
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #21 on: 03/21/18, 08:02 PM »

Not that anyone's going to miss another brush bumbler from Oregon but in all fairness to the management...

I've requested that my login and every post I've ever made on TAY be deleted. I'm not interested in participating in this train wreck any longer and since they seem to have the ability to erase a person from the site and have clearly demonstrated the ability and the "right" I see no reason why that couldn't be exercised on my behalf. Or on YOUR behalf if you find this kind of intervention and thought policing as childish and shortsighted as I do.

I post this because I'd hate for them to be accused of silencing dissent among the ranks if they decide to grant my request. Of course if they do that then this post will be gone and no one will care about this whole silly but completely avoidable incident.

Happy turns folks!
« Last Edit: 03/21/18, 08:12 PM by KLW » Logged
Micah
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #22 on: 03/21/18, 09:31 PM »

HFNC was intentionally provoking conflict. Chris decided to pull the plug on him, and that is absolutely his prerogative (and I support him 100%, as he has been given the responsibility of that judgment). I feel like it is in line with the cultural standards of TAY, which has always been on the stuffier side.

While HFNC tended a little conspiratorial, and his posting become more and more confrontational, I enjoyed some of the discussion that he incited. Maybe he'll continue contributing to our community through his other avatars. I know I'll be here if anybody wants to talk about skiing.

Best,
Micah
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Lowell_Skoog
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #23 on: 03/21/18, 09:49 PM »

"Freeski" is now working on getting banned over on NWHikers

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1120678#1120678

Looks like this may have occurred. There have been no more posts on the NWHikers thread since Tom (the admin) posted a reminder about the site guidelines:

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8017231

I hadn't read the NWHikers guidelines before, but I like the basic idea. Quote:

Quote
Is it positive?  Is it helpful?  Will it make people want to return to this site and be part of this community?

Good advice.
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flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #24 on: 03/22/18, 08:47 AM »

they use that same approach at my kids daycare
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cumulus
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #25 on: 03/22/18, 09:57 AM »

stuffy daycare for adults: now that's a winning cultural combination!

(I usually try to steer clear of sarcasm... but man, seriously?  In this day and age of multiple social media platforms nibbling away at TAY's ability to be a cohesive center of Pacific NW backcountry skiing culture and we get
...and that is absolutely his prerogative (and I support him 100%, as he has been given the responsibility of that judgment). I feel like it is in line with the cultural standards of TAY, which has always been on the stuffier side.

You really want to keep it narrow-minded and conventional: stuffy?  I'm sure that's a great way to recruit a more vibrant crowd: double down on the dour.
And loyalty trumps thinking on your own two feet? (regardless of what we advocate as good backcountry protocol)

my TAY heart is sinking...
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Stefan
Micah
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #26 on: 03/22/18, 10:45 AM »


You really want to keep it narrow-minded and conventional: stuffy?  I'm sure that's a great way to recruit a more vibrant crowd: double down on the dour.
And loyalty trumps thinking on your own two feet? (regardless of what we advocate as good backcountry protocol)

my TAY heart is sinking...


I certainly don't want to restrict the discussion here. Want to talk about commercialism and guiding in the ski industry? Start a thread! I'll jump on and give my opinions (which, TBH, are frequently aligned with HFNC). If you use a modicum of courtesy and employ the golden rule, I'm sure you will not suffer any censorship. I want to emphasize that it was HFNC's rhetorical style (behavior), not his politics or beliefs that led to the deletion of his user.

I'm thankful to have TAY. I'm thankful that Charles started the site and that Marcus and Chris have kept it going (by contributing significant personal time and effort for nothing but the satisfaction of doing it). Given that state of affairs, I'm more than happy to defer to their voices in decisions like how far to let HFNC go. I personally wouldn't (and didn't) ban him. But I certainly don't have a problem with the 'boss' doing so.

I'm sorry, Cumulus, that your TAY heart is sinking. You have posted some great stuff over the years. My TAY heart is heavy, too.
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Micah
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #27 on: 03/22/18, 10:47 AM »

I can appreciate that. Once I deleted a pretty vulgar pic that bunny profane plastered in a 9/11 memorial thread and he about lost his mind. I didn’t give it much thought when I pushed the delete button, it just felt good. He later re posted the pic and called me all sort of vulgarity and nonsenses. I just took it as part of the job. I’d probably ski with him but first I’d give him a piece of my mind and be careful on the offload ramp if we took a chair together. My point is, we didn’t ban his entire history and really did nothing else. He’s still a know it all east coast local but not as much a dick. problem solved and maybe a win for everyone.
did you consider a time out? works ok for us

Thanks for the advice!
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ski_photomatt
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #28 on: 03/22/18, 12:20 PM »


my TAY heart is sinking...


+1.  I've been posting and hanging around on TAY for 16 years and I can't remember seeing the entire history of a person's posts deleted.  While it may be within the site's terms of use, it is IMO is a significant violation of most users' trust in the site.  Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the internet and current Director of the World Wide Web Consortium remarked yesterday on Twitter (https://twitter.com/timberners_lee/status/976623321591762949) that "Any data about me, wherever it is, is mine and mine alone to control."

The site admins should restore freeski's posts.  This should be possible by restoring them from the database backups.
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Jim Oker
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #29 on: 03/22/18, 03:11 PM »

FWIW the context of Tim Berners-Lee's comment is rather  different from this situation. For anyone living under a rock, he's referring to the sort of behavioral tracking that sites like Facebook, Amazon, and Google (and many others) do, creating large repositories  of information about  what we've clicked, what we've  liked, what we've ignored,  etc. And as  I read it it's suggesting  that  this data should  be owned by the  person whose behaviors created it. Not sold and resold and inferred upon with sophisticated machine learning models without informed consent by that person.

I get the concern about a community member's record of participation being wiped clean, but I wouldn't use that statement by Mr Berners-Lee as ammunition  for this notion. His statement might apply to selling the content of your posts  plus your clickstream here  to  a third party. But the duty  to  maintain a faithful  archive for public viewing is another  matter and IMO  entirely based on whatever guarantee a site owner has given to  users. I can imagine many types of sites where  such a  guarantee would be a non-starter.
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pipedream
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #30 on: 03/22/18, 03:55 PM »

I thought we are all supposed to be deleting our Facebooks, not our TAY forum accounts Huh
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Moral of story is don't ski when you can snowboard
kamtron
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #31 on: 03/22/18, 04:08 PM »

I thought we are all supposed to be deleting our Facebooks, not our TAY forum accounts Huh
If enough people do that (and if this POS forum software ever gets updated... which I'm happy to volunteer to help), maybe TAY will be about sharing trip reports and stoke rather than diatribes about whomever's personal issue again!

P.S. I know people are working behind the scenes to update. Not trying to ruffle any feathers, I just think the archaic interface and difficulty of uploading photos is what makes people gravitate towards the TAY FB page, or Instagram, or whatever.
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Charlie Hagedorn
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #32 on: 03/22/18, 05:16 PM »

This is a nuanced topic, but I'd like to express support for a temporary block of freeski's account and disapproval of the removal of anyone's entire post history.  Freeski has made positive contributions, but numerous recent posts were detrimental to the valuable and long-standing tenor of TAY.

TAY is important as an archive, as it will serve in decades to come as a historical record of backcountry skiing in the Cascades for both skiers and advocacy. It's important that useful conversations retain their continuity. (For clarity -- in my opinon, it is okay to nuke posts that have gotten out of hand, but not those that make meaningful contributions.)  I'm happy to help to the extent that I can in recovering freeski's posts.
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cumulus
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #33 on: 03/22/18, 05:34 PM »

To be clear: all I'm saying is that respect goes both ways.  As administrators/moderators you're just as intrinsically involved in setting the tone as we all are.
When you remove all of somebody's posts, or invasively edit somebody's post, it doesn't seem like there is much consideration given for courtesy or the golden rule.  As ski_photomatt correctly pointed out, it doesn't exactly foster trust either.  And as flowing alpy pointed out, there are certainly more respectful solutions--a time out for example.

Respect begets respect. Pretty simple--but occasionally complicated too.



btw: really happy nobody has edited the (mispelled?) title: helli ski -- appropriate, eh?  Wink

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Stefan
water
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #34 on: 03/22/18, 11:52 PM »

imo that guy was as close to verbal/mental cancer as i have seen, and on the topic of Mt. St. Helens Institute I have almost been that guy for almost 10 years. Been on enough forums of all variety, the way he wrote, quoted, debated, was among the worst. I was so irritated i made a parody account (changed my name) to heli-free north cascades tay-free username to troll him and admins quickly removed it.

good riddance. dgaf about his history being deleted.

might be a great person to hang with skis on the snow, no doubt, but here was pure garbage, it was like fox news echo chamber, unless you agreed with him, you were in conspiracy against!

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vogtski
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #35 on: 03/23/18, 05:05 AM »

...on the topic of Mt. St. Helens Institute I have almost been that guy for almost 10 years...

As a XC-only skier with little "stoke" to offer, I have probably "almost been that guy" on the subject of the highly overrated management of the National Park Service.   TAY has the right to ban anyone they choose, as long as necessary, but deleting all their posts seems pretty extreme to me.
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I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #36 on: 03/23/18, 07:13 PM »

To be clear: all I'm saying is that respect goes both ways.  As administrators/moderators you're just as intrinsically involved in setting the tone as we all are.
When you remove all of somebody's posts, or invasively edit somebody's post, it doesn't seem like there is much consideration given for courtesy or the golden rule.  As ski_photomatt correctly pointed out, it doesn't exactly foster trust either.  And as flowing alpy pointed out, there are certainly more respectful solutions--a time out for example.

Respect begets respect. Pretty simple--but occasionally complicated too.



btw: really happy nobody has edited the (mispelled?) title: helli ski -- appropriate, eh?  Wink


word
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silaswild
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #37 on: 03/23/18, 08:43 PM »

The volume of non skiing posts on TAY seems inversely related to current snow quality. Meanwhile here at Jackson skiing was very wet yesterday and superb 14" fresh this morning. Sunny and challenging this afternoon.  I'm thankful for all my TAY friends who've shared so many fine stashes with me, including Chris (freeski.)
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mosetick
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #38 on: 03/24/18, 04:09 PM »

I’ll try adding some more detail than I did i my last post. Marcus messaged me privately about HFNC / Freeski on March 8th. I asked him about deleting topics and posts as a simple question and he just went ahead and did it point blank. I realize that Marcus should not have been involved in the first place, but it seems that NWAC members reached out to him rather than Micah or myself. This is not putting blame on Marcus, Freeski should have just been banned temporarily or permanently. Many of his posts contain valuable discussions, even if sometimes extremely controversial.
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BillK
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #39 on: 03/24/18, 06:17 PM »

And several could potentially put your "community's" site in legal jeopardy
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Randy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #40 on: 03/24/18, 07:21 PM »

My take on FreeSki's posts is there was a bit useful information, but it was small compared to the add on rantings and "I'm being supressed" tone.  IMHO the breaking point is when he started derailing various other threads hammering again and again about his issues.

You can find bits and pieces of his posts where others quoted him.

His posts on NWAC under the handle "Vague observations for money" were another example of taking things beyond where they could be a useful contribution.

Perhaps he was unable to gain insight from this classic


https://goo.gl/images/mFQ3xB
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flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #41 on: 03/26/18, 10:25 AM »

And several could potentially put your "community's" site in legal jeopardy
How?
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BillK
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #42 on: 03/26/18, 01:20 PM »

Libel? Defamation?  Not sure of the correct term but I think there is a potential risk to the website.  Any lawyer's care to comment?
« Last Edit: 03/26/18, 01:29 PM by BillK » Logged
bbrelje
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #43 on: 03/26/18, 02:19 PM »

Libel? Defamation?  Not sure of the correct term but I think there is a potential risk to the website.  Any lawyer's care to comment?


IANAL, but:
- Libel is written defamation. Slander is verbal defamation.
- Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act provides immunity for internet services (such as Facebook) from defamation claims based on content generated by their users. Unless freeski was the owner (or possibly a mod / agent of the owner), TAY is immune from a defamation lawsuit. TAY certainly isn't obliged to remove potentially libelous content preemptively, and I'm not even sure they're obliged to do so upon request.
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flowing alpy
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Re: helli ski info
« Reply #44 on: 03/26/18, 04:01 PM »

there has been some pretty heinous shit posted at the mothership,
stuff that made the drivel that ‘helli’ posted seem more like a blog.
TAY ain’t gonna get sued cuz a guy wants his bc to his self imo
i’m at best a canine dentist, i’ll leave the lawyering to geezer steve
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