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Author Topic: The commercialization of nature  (Read 3282 times)
Jim Oker
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #25 on: 01/16/18, 11:42 AM »

Commercialism is of course hardly  new to humanity. One could  say it's gotten worse by looking at one set of facts; one could say it's gotten better by looking at another (e.g. though slavery is hardly eliminated despite being outlawed everywhere  on the planet, its incidence as a percent of overall population seems to have  dropped dramatically). My impression is  that the  outcomes of commercialism are more a reflection of a society's values than a driver of them, though I'm sure there's some influence  in  both directions. I'm generally  unmoved by fairly generic rants against "commercialism"  because I  see many ways in  which  thoughtfully  regulated commercialism is  better for most people than any alternative I've seen  play out at large  scale and among modern population densities. Does it pose problems, including some that  can't be fully eliminated even  with said "thoughtful  regulation?" Of course.  So  do the alternatives I've witnessed in  my lifetime.

Specifics matter. Helicopter noise? I supposed it could  cause  a momentary  lapse of reason, but my personal experience is just bracing for a moment as the copter (or low-flying jet on  training mission, which far outstrips the copters in  terms of shock to  the  system IME) passes. While there are times and places where I've found their incessant presence a bit annoying and I've  wished for them to  go away (camping on  Kalalau beach in winter,  anyone?), I find the "safety" argument here uncompelling, unless they are buzzing other parties in a dangerous way (which  the  FS would hopefully  put a stop to if shown clear evidence  which  is fortunately easy to  gather in the modern era in which  many of us have  video cameras of one sort or another  in a pocket).

Relative safety of guides? W/o data showing risk per skier day with and without guides for people  at the  same experience level, all I see is sharing of anecdotes that  tell me that  our sport has danger that can't be fully mitigated. I could find anecdotes about unguided parties that would tell  me the same thing. If they're doign avy control on slopes with other  parties potentially below them (which is a different issue than whether  the clients are getting  what  they  pay for safety-wise), that seems like the  heli buzzing which should be documented to a point where the  FS is forced to insist this stop.

Speaking of facts,  I wonder how many backcountry  recreationalists get in to experience the zones in  which NCH regularly  flies via leg power versus with heli-assist. I get that it sucks to have people with more money and horsepower behind them spoiling the experience for those  w/o those accelerants, like  a case of a skier and a high-marker getting to the bottom of the same tasty  basin  at the same moment. But are more or fewer people actually getting  to enjoy this terrain thanks to  the helis? Are there zones where they  can  be reasonably  avoided, or are rare to encounter? Or are they  dominating in  such a  way that people w/o money are being excluded from the areas or worse that fewer skiers are in those  zones in any given winter than  would otherwise be there?
« Last Edit: 01/16/18, 11:48 AM by Jim Oker » Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #26 on: 01/16/18, 02:43 PM »

HFNC: Thanks for replying to my post.

This is a laudable suggestion, but policy decisions depend on a lot of subjective and intangible judgements that are not facts. Among the things that are certainly subjective are the 'real' motivations of people we disagree with. Personally, I don't think we can really 'know' what motivates anyone else and likely not even ourselves. From what you wrote above, it seems like you reject Andyski's claim that you are motivated by narrow self-interest. Whether or not you are motivated by self-interest is not an objective question that can settled by performing a measurement. That question is at least partially subjective. You can go on believing you are not motivated by your self interest, and others can go on believing you are, and there is no way to settle the dispute with facts. From my POV (based only on your posts that I have read), it does seem like your ethos is fairly flexible around your actions and fairly inflexible regarding actions of people whose motivations you question. So I can see where Andyski was coming from.

There are facts that 'support' your views (e.g. there have been fatal avalanche accidents among guided skiers) and facts that 'support' people you disagree with (e.g. guides' clients routinely acknowledge the risk of skiing wild snow and almost always sign waivers so that there is written documentation of their acknowledgment). None of those facts settle questions about the legitimacy of heli-skiing or snowmobile skiing in the HWY 20 corridor.

I think a lot of us on this board feel that you dismiss our arguments in favor of commercial interests by claiming that our viewpoints are ignorant of 'the facts'. I'm here to suggest that the facts are less relevant to this debate than less tangible beliefs and that most of the people you argue with here are very knowledgable about the BC scene. They just come to different conclusions.

Your personal philosophy sounds very interesting to me, and I would love to discuss the ins and outs of it while skinning through the mountains. The mountains are important to lots of us, and the internet can be a hard place to be understood.
everyone is motivated by self-interest.

 The only two altruistic acts I've probably ever done were helping to save people's lives by risking my own.

 I still feel stupid about  the second occurrence because it had me soaked in gasoline trying to save a guy who was trying to kill me, my wife and other people on the highway along with himself.

 Is Andyski a commercial guide and therefore benefits by making up stories about someone who disagrees with the commercial agenda for public land? I don't know let's ask him.

 Should I make up stories about him?

 Look at the assumptions he made about Andrew. And he wants to see everyone banded here who what, has an opposing point of view concerning the commercialization of the backcountry  and the Greed values that go along with it.


I don't know if you've looked around the planet lately but greed seems to be destroying the place.

The theoretical norm around here has always been to argue the point not the person. To me,  his argument seems to be more of a personal attack launched at me.

According to Andyski, I'm an unprincipled person who wants the powder all to myself.

Well the facts  don't support that position but he doesn't know the facts so how can that argument be presented as logical validity.

He Only knows some story that is made up in his own mind. Why? Is it an effort to discredit opposing point of views. Is that true let's ask him.



 I don't have any facts to support what motivates him, all's I know is that the opinion he presented concerning who I am is a false story. And most likely based on some sort of bias.

 But everyone's free to believe what they want to believe even if the facts don't support that belief.

People can believe that the planet is not heating up due to greenhouse gases. However the science does not support that opinion.

So in the 50 years or so there won't be any snow related issues to worry about.

But I'm pretty certain the values of commercialism will still dominate.

 Luckily, I won't be here to see the planet burn.

Oh wait that's already happening.







« Last Edit: 01/16/18, 02:47 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Jim Oker
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #27 on: 01/16/18, 02:52 PM »

I'm with you on avoiding  trying to read minds (i.e. stating  the intentions of others  when  you  can't possibly know them for sure,  and are in  fact  quite likely  wrong). We all do it but it's rarely helpful in these discussions. It seems more cathartic than  anything. (this of course includes reading the  minds of people who start advocacy groups, run businesses, etc., but yeah  I do it sometimes too)

As for "the values of commercialism," I continue to  think that's a mistaken construction,  at least at the  first order. I think "commercialism" is  a fairly efficient way to reflect the values of people. Which I think tend to reflect a focus on both material things as well as on personal  experiences. I don't think these crop up merely  because of the  commercialized system that  we've invented over  time. These values showed up just  as surely in  the  Soviet Union  as in the US. I do, however, think there's some potential risk associated with allowing commercial activity on public lands, as there  is a high risk of what  economists call "externalities" - costs (or benefits) that accrue to  others not involved in the transactions. Which  IMO is a good principled reason  to apply thoughtful regulation to the commercial activity. The fact that  it's commercial is not, in and of itself, a compelling reason  to cease such  activity, at least for me.
« Last Edit: 01/16/18, 02:55 PM by Jim Oker » Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #28 on: 01/17/18, 02:08 PM »


Specifics matter. Helicopter noise? I supposed it could  cause  a momentary  lapse of reason,  evidence  which  is fortunately easy to  gather in the modern era in which  many of us have  video cameras of one sort or another  in a pocket).

Relative safety of guides? W/o data showing risk per skier day with and without guides for people  at the  same experience level, all I see is sharing of anecdotes that  tell me that  our sport has danger that can't be fully mitigated.



Jim, one way the Forest Service tryed to mitigate the impact of the helicopter ski operations on human power Ski touring groups is to require that the helicopter leave the area when is ski touring group is present.

 The helicopter ski operation has some discretion here as far as safety goes, however very often they do not leave the area and the noise is continuous and harmful.

They can always claim that they did not leave the area because of some safety concern, whatever that would be.

Because it's a small community, most Backcountry skiers will not report these types of encounters.

 And look what happened to me when I got involved in this issue during the multiple tree cutting incidents  of whitebark pine trees in order to create unauthorized Landing zones.

I was using the internet in my community center parking lot in Twisp and was approached by a Guide Outfitter owner and repeatedly warned to stay out of Mazama.

The incident was so terrifying to me that I immediately reported it to multiple police departments and a police Report was generated.

It's these types of incidents that I would term reflective of the values of commercialism. Money ideals are placed before Community Values.

  Those folks that support  any business that uses questionable tactics to enrich themselves, support the environment  in which this type of behavior is tolerated.

 Same as people who turned a blind eye to the Hollywood sexual harassment and criminal Behavior  that allowed that behavior to embed itself in the culture .

 So it's not the fact that these commercial enterprises exist, it's how they exist and what value system they operate under.

Andyski's post is a prime example of a questionable value system. Because he's not speaking truthful, his post amounts to the use of personal attack as an argument tactic.

Is that a value system we want to espouse within our communities?

And as to your point on commercial guide accidents vs private citizen ski groups accident analysis, we can never know those numbers because many near miss avalanche incidents are not disclosed by both groups.

However private ski touring groups are not soliciting money from  clients  and many are stepping up as they should. my entire Backcountry safety the record has been laid bare here on the pages of turns all year. The hope is that it would be some small benefit to the community.

Because guide groups are not disclosing all near miss Avalanche incidents, the appearance is that those groups are extremely safe, when in fact that may not be the case.

The perception I've been told by a guide is that disclosing near-miss accidents is  'bad for business'. That conversation was witnessed.

So here we're putting the value of money over what's best for the community. Of course you have to believe as I do that disclosing near Miss Avalanche incidents contributes to a knowledge base, serves to educate and serves the interest of Public Safety and the community as a whole.

 Putting the value of money over the best interest of a community is value that I would attribute to commercialism.  the tobacco industry is a prime example.

A commercial business could certainly choose to operate the other way around where Community service and Public Safety are of greater value to a community then the values that need to be generated in order to make money and serve self- interest.

There are lots of commercial businesses the operate in service to the community, especially in a small community where I live. It turns out what is best for their self interest also serves the interests of the community. That's the way it should be in every case, imo.


What value system would you choose? Honesty and integrity or intimidation and deceit?

Which value system is better for the community?

 Jim, in your other post I agree with you where you say that having a commercial business operate on public land is not bad per se and regulations need to be in place.

 These regulations need to insure  ensure that Commercial Business, which operates on public land, is operating in the best interest of Public Safety, the environment  as well as service to the community.

 How does not disclosing near-miss Avalanche incidents serve the interests of the community.

How does not adhering to the terms of a Guide Outfitter special use permit serve the interests of the community?

How does using intimidation tactics against those who choose to perform their civic duty serve the community?

How does supporting a company adheres to the values of commercialism serve the community?

Of course you have to believe what I'm saying here  and you're forgiven if your bias does not allow you to believe me,  but no need to attack me personally.

But I believe I am being truthful. I'm a witness and it happened to me.





« Last Edit: 01/17/18, 02:22 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Jim Oker
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #29 on: 01/17/18, 08:25 PM »

I hope I haven't attacked you personally in this thread. That was certainly not my intent. I do still think you are somewhat wrong on cause and effect around commercialism and things like the threat you've described (again, I think commercialism is more reflective of peoples values that it is a cause of them)  but I can hold a different opinion there without needing to attack you.

It seems that much of the negative things you've described should theoretically be subject to enforcement action by the FS or local law enforcement but I know that these things aren't perfect and that clannishness for instance can help some locals get away with things. That's been true even in capitalism free societies, fwiw. Reporting of incidents including near misses send like a great notion but tough  to enforce. Not sure how hard I'd fight for turning that into law given the enforcement challenge ( hard to enforce laws don't seem to do a lot...) but I certainly wouldn't oppose such a law.
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bfree32
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #30 on: 01/17/18, 10:16 PM »

Noise affecting decision making? Come on...what are you going to think of next to support your elitist agenda? Yes the helicopters are quite loud when directly overhead, but two minutes later they are gone. Once sufficiently far away (it doesn't take long), it sounds just like a road, or gasp...a snowmobile. Maybe if you weren't so rude to the NCH guys you could pick up a radio and they would be happy to tell you where they are planning on flying next. But at this point they probably don't feel too bad for you, much like most of us don't have much sympathy after all of your ranting posts. Sorry to say, the increased population base and increased popularity of backcountry skiing means you need to learn how to share your sacred grounds. Don't like the heli or guide ops? Fine, don't ski with them. But they offer the opportunity to enjoy skiing some of the most beautiful public lands in the state to folks that may not have the skills or equipment to do so without them, and they are here to stay.

Of course you warmed up to the idea of extending the National Park instead of making it Wilderness once you realized it benefits you. No heli-skiing in a National Park, but you could still have your snowmobile. No snowmobiling (or roads, for that matter) in Wilderness. I still can't figure out why your form of motorized transport is acceptable but other peoples' isn't.

No, I am not in the industry, nor have I ever heli-skied or been on a guided trip. Yes, I've had a heli climb a hundred feet above me and drop a bunch of paying clients on top of the run I was planning on skiing. Loud? You betcha, especially a Huey loaded with 8 passengers and gear climbing at 7000 ft. But we knew they were coming from talking to the pilot on radio throughout the morning and didn't really care. They gang ski the middle of the slope anyways and leave the better stuff off to the side. I actually find it kind of amusing when touring up a run that others pay hundreds of dollars to ski.
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altasnob
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #31 on: 01/18/18, 07:55 AM »

Is there any heli skiing operations in the US who do operate in either a national park or a wilderness area? I assumed their permit areas may border a national park or wilderness but are not actually inside those forms of land designation. I could be wrong so am curious. Maybe in AK?
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altasnob
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #32 on: 01/18/18, 10:19 AM »

Here is an article on a proposal by Dick Cheney's daughter to allow heli skiing in a wilderness proposed area in Wyoming (not a full fledged wilderness yet). I assume that with roads and mechanized travel (like mountain bikes) banned from wilderness, that heli skiing is also banned. North Cascades Heli Skiing's permit area is all on national forest lands, not national park or wilderness (as far as I know). So making this land wilderness would prevent NCHS from flying there (and keep out snowmobiles).
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gravitymk
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #33 on: 01/18/18, 02:26 PM »

Great post andyski - exactly my thoughts as well but you took the time to eloquently type it out  Smiley

Andew - agreed the FB TAY group is replacing this site quickly. I find a much higher signal to noise ratio there, not to mention it is so much easier to use on a mobile device.

X2 on both points
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Stefan
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #34 on: 01/18/18, 02:50 PM »

Is commercialism our new value system that defines us as what it means to be human?

Who gets to decide a value for society?
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Randy
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #35 on: 01/18/18, 06:14 PM »

...
North Cascades Heli Skiing's permit area is all on national forest lands, not national park or wilderness (as far as I know). So making this land wilderness would prevent NCHS from flying there (and keep out snowmobiles).

I've always thought it was odd that Silver Star mountain and surrounding area doesn't have some sort of protected status.   The area certainly has scenic value worth protecting.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #36 on: 01/20/18, 08:42 AM »

I hope I haven't attacked you personally in this thread. That was certainly not my intent. I do still think you are somewhat wrong on cause and effect around commercialism and things like the threat you've described (again, I think commercialism is more reflective of peoples values that it is a cause of them)  but I can hold a different opinion there without needing to attack you.

It seems that much of the negative things you've described should theoretically be subject to enforcement action by the FS or local law enforcement but I know that these things aren't perfect and that clannishness for instance can help some locals get away with things. That's been true even in capitalism free societies, fwiw. Reporting of incidents including near misses send like a great notion but tough  to enforce. Not sure how hard I'd fight for turning that into law given the enforcement challenge ( hard to enforce laws don't seem to do a lot...) but I certainly wouldn't oppose such a law.
no Jim you have not attacked me personally, ever.

In 2002 and 2003 we went through an environmental assessment process that considered doubling the number of heli assisted skiers that NCHS, now NCH, could airlift into the backcountry.

The forest service designed and put into effect a number of mitigation measures that would supposedly reduce the impact that this motorized access to roadless areas would have upon human powered ski touring groups.

This process was required by law before a permit  could be issued that would change the scope and use of this heli operation.

One of those mitigation measures was to have the helicopter leave an area,safety permitting, where human-powered ski touring group are recreating. That one is hit or miss. Sometimes they fly away and sometimes they stay in the same area and rattle your brain for however long it takes them to track up every single line that you were about to ski.

I remember one blue bird ski tour in the Frisco mountain area where we were climbing a critical section through a waterfall and above a cliff band.

This happened in the winter of 2000 to 2003 I believe. Environmental assessment provisions were finalized, Backcountry skier appeal rejected, the heli operation doubled in size, and the mitigation measures were fully in effect.

We expended great effort and energy to get to this location. When the helicopter first arrives you sense and hear a vibration disturbance similar to what an avalanche sounds like.

When you're in a critical hazard area where even a small Avalanche can send you over a cliff and the helicopter pulls up,  your first thought is, we're screwed. You think there's an avalanche on your way and just for a moment you think " I screwed up  I'm dead."

With adrenaline coursing through your veins, you are now fully in fight or flight mode for survival. Then you realize it's just the helicopter.

So now you proceed with your tour hoping that the mitigation measures will kick in, the helicopter will spot you, and they will fly away to another location. Because after all it's so very easy for them to do.

So on that particular day we proceeded with our tour. The helicopter spotted us and we waved to our friends who were guiding the helicopter that day.

Well they didn't leave. Unbeknownst to us they had actually triggered a slab avalanche above us on a roll over that didn't run very far.

As we were climbing, the helicopter made multiple trips with multiple loads of clients and proceeded to track up every fall line ski line.

As we were climbing up we had multiple encounters with downhill skiers running through our group.

This was my first experience in wondering why people pay money to ski in a constant rattle of noise as the helicopter makes multiple trips in close proximity to your brain. It's like a video game where the skiers are gobbling up powder without realizing the beauty of nature they are surrounded by. They certainly don't have a clue the effect that their powder frenzy is having upon others.

So with all the lines tracked up and the  helicopter now gone, we were left in beautiful silence at the top of Frisco. What to do.

We decided to drop the backside of Frisco down into the National Park. This extended our tour quite a bit. On the return climb back up to Maple pass, one of the members of the group was starting to feel quite ill from the added exertion, but this time it turned out okay.

Was our decision making process compromised as a group? Had we considered that we didn't have enough water and food for an extended tour? Was someone's life put in Jeopardy because we altered our plans because the hideous powder hungry beast, that is the heli ski operation, had entered our area?

We did wind up skiing good powder down into the National Park, but we are all whipped and on the return to Highway 20  we packed on our snowmobiles and headed back over the Liberty Bell slide paths.

I was actually Towed behind a snowmobile from that point because I was not able to drive my machine over the Liberty Bell slide paths on  the outward bound Journey.

So we get back to the hwy 20 hairpin and a Shining Light appeared.

There was skier X with a hot pan full of bratwurst and beer.

So contrast the values of that day. One friend a heli guide, who later told us he was glad it was us because he knew we would not report him to the forest service,  not following the rules.


And another friend, in a total mode of giving.

Someone asked who decides society's values.

We do, each and everyone of us.

We learned our lesson that day. Stay out of the designated heli  runs or learn to  suffer the consequences.

For those of you from another area who think that the helicopters so great, picture  the area's that you currently tour in.

 Is the above scenario something that you would appreciate. Maybe you should  advocate to the forest service for a helicopter operation to start up in your area.

Then you can live with it for 30 years and tell me how much fun you're having.

When the Helicopter Company decided to extend their terrain by cutting whitebark pine trees in order to establish unauthorized helicopter landing zones, we had no choice but to take action.

The forest service actually asks Backcountry skiers to do citizen monitoring of Outfitter permit areas because the forest service doesn't have the resources to do their own monitoring.We see now that that policy just extends the conflict. Here we are doing our citizen Duty, paying the price through Outfitter intimidation and harassment.

The Helicopter Company had a chance to make it right.
They had a chance to step up and make our back country a better place.

They chose to lie to the FS instead, tried to cover their environmental destruction. When subsequent unauthorized cut sites were discovered after the first one, that lie became apparent even to the forest service and the NCH permit was placed on probation. Ultimately they were just slapped on the wrist, paid a small fee and received extended scope of operation not requiring environmental review.

During the probation period they were supposed to follow the rules for the forest service would take further action. NCH didn't follow the rules during their probation, because I've already documented a helicopter firmly planted in my face and endangering me, and another instance when they did not leave an area that ski tours were operating in. The forest service took no further action because of these rule violations, it was an empty threat.

We choose the value system for a society. If you Embrace ideals of commercialism, such as deceit and intimidation, they will embrace you.

You  become the values that you embrace. Choose Wisely.





« Last Edit: 01/20/18, 09:43 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Jim Oker
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #37 on: 01/20/18, 09:15 AM »

If you think profit motive is required for  acts of deceit or for  taking advantage of other  humans or of nature, I'd suggest a closer reading of history.

Has anyone managed to get video documentation of multiple cases of ignoring of the  mitigation measures and shared that  with the  FS? (separate from  the photo documentation that I know was provided of the  tree cuts)
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #38 on: 01/20/18, 10:06 AM »

If you think profit motive is required for  acts of deceit or for  taking advantage of other  humans or of nature, I'd suggest a closer reading of history.

Has anyone managed to get video documentation of multiple cases of ignoring of the  mitigation measures and shared that  with the  FS? (separate from  the photo documentation that I know was provided of the  tree cuts)
I do have a video that was taken during the permit probation. The helicopter had landed on highway 20 near Vardon Creek and it looked like there were two loads of heli skiers milling around. I slowly proceeded past the helicopter with my snowmobile, and stopped.

It was foggy that day and a guide approached me to explain the circumstances and said that they could not safely return to the base area and didn't have enough fuel to circle around and find a hole in the low fog layer.

The NCH snowcat pulled up and they proceeded to refuel the helicopter and one load of heli skiers was loaded into the snow cat to return to base camp. The other load took off and most likely headed back up to SilverStar for some more skiing.

The snow cat is not permitted on the highway, and refueling operations are not supposed to take place on the highway, and the helicopter is not supposed to land on the highway at that location.

However it may have been an emergency situation and my assumption was they would have reported it to the forest service themselves. In this case I gave NCH the benefit of the doubt.

As I mentioned before, it's a small community and most people don't truly desire to make waves. Many would rather come to me and  tell the stories at which point the story just becomes hearsay not subject to actions by the forest service.

I can't blame those people because after all, who wants to be subject  to intimidation or whatever pushback may come their way as a result of reporting to governmental land managers. Their names will not be protected under the Freedom of Information Act.

There are however members of the community who think that public safety issues and community value systems are important and are willing to speak out.

Some are even willing to relay  these experiences on turns all year with the knowledge that a few internet people will launch personal attacks subject to their own bias, self interest and value systems.

As a once professional psychologist, I understand the influence of bias and don't blame them, but I think the discussion and thought is worthy of our attention.

We are after all, innocent victims of circumstance and coincidence, and we are all at various levels (stages) of growth.

Edit(...)

« Last Edit: 01/20/18, 06:57 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #39 on: 01/20/18, 06:49 PM »

 here's a quote from an opinion piece by KT Miller, formally  working in the heli-ski industry

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/08/opinion-the-hypocrisy-of-helicopter-skiing/

''It was especially ironic on April 22, 2014…Earth Day. A handful of fairly big players in the ski industry posted Instagrams about how much they loved the mountains and the earth…but the photos they posted came from helicopters. On top of which, some of those who posted heli-ski photos on Earth Day have also advocated for Protect Our Winter’s #ActOnClimate project and Climate Reality Project’s I am Pro Snow campaign."

"What I want to know now is when will we as a culture be willing to sacrifice our frivolous joys for the sake of the future? It’s great that the ski industry is talking the talk, but when will everyone, companies and athletes included, choose to walk the walk? And what’s the line? Is heli-skiing okay if you only do it a few time a year, but the rest of the year you act as an environmentally aware citizen? "

KT MILLER IS A SKIER, PHOTOGRAPHER, AND ENVIRONMENTALIST. SEE MORE OF HER WORK AT KTMILLER.PHOTO."
« Last Edit: 01/20/18, 07:00 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #40 on: 01/20/18, 07:33 PM »

...As a once professional psychologist, ...

This explains so much...
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #41 on: 01/21/18, 10:12 AM »

This explains so much...
not quite accurate though.
 It should read  "as a professional practicing in the field of psychology".

Sorry you may have formed a judgment that was based inaccurate facts.

After that very short career I went into the construction industry and am producing about a ton of Honey every year.( okay caught me again, the bees actually produce the honey, I just grab it from the bees)

Helping people with problems cope, providing shelter and food, which ultimately benefits a community, yeah he must be some kind of ......(insert your favorite biased related judgement here).

And

"Facebook it to your mommy."

( that's my favorite Scotsman quote). Cheesy

« Last Edit: 01/21/18, 10:22 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Skier of the Hood
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #42 on: 01/21/18, 10:21 AM »

Hah KT Miller is my biggest fan!
#backcountryalpha

https://www.instagram.com/p/zOVqtqoM4Q/
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"As we all know, the true driving force behind every early morning wake up is not necessarily safety, but the overpowering drive to be sitting on a patio by 1 pm, intoxicated, and spraying loudly about the morning's adventure."

-Andrew Wexler 2011
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #43 on: 01/21/18, 10:26 AM »

Hah KT Miller is my biggest fan!
#backcountryalpha

https://www.instagram.com/p/zOVqtqoM4Q/
thanks for that link.

This quote is from the comment section. looks like KT knows how to spot a carpetbagger spoon feeding misinformation to the carpet Crawlers.

"ktmillerphotoThere are two much safer ways to approach the line via ridge lines right & left @jensanderson // I'm afraid there is a new guidebook out that advises folks to climb the route- which for this particular line doesn't make a lot of sense.."

Remember when Peter Gabriel sang "the carpet crawlers heed their callers" Cheesy
« Last Edit: 01/21/18, 10:31 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #44 on: 01/21/18, 10:34 AM »

Haha I guess I do enjoy crawling on carpets from time to time, especially after a month of almost no new snowfall (;
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"As we all know, the true driving force behind every early morning wake up is not necessarily safety, but the overpowering drive to be sitting on a patio by 1 pm, intoxicated, and spraying loudly about the morning's adventure."

-Andrew Wexler 2011
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #45 on: 01/21/18, 04:06 PM »

Haha I guess I do enjoy crawling on carpets from time to time, especially after a month of almost no new snowfall (;
oh I was just referring to KT's reference to guide books and how people blindly follow guide recommendations even though guide information is often misleading or hidden in the commercialism tower of power.

We watched in our area as many of our routes were poached and then were turned into a commercial product and watched as nature has  been subject to the values of commercialism.



 


* tower_of_hype_building.jpg (50.51 KB, 640x480 - viewed 410 times.)
« Last Edit: 01/21/18, 04:19 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #46 on: 01/22/18, 08:53 AM »

In our areas we watch as nature becomes subject to the values of procreation and migration...
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #47 on: 01/23/18, 01:12 PM »

Noise ratings for Astar helicopter.

Unweighted
98-99.9 dB overhead

97'-97.3 dB at 100m flyby

A Weighted
85.7-89 dB overhead

84.8-85.2 dB 100m flyby


Source: Forest Service Study on effects of heli- ski operations on golden eagles.

And here's a good read on noise and its effect on human hearing.

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2016/02/08/noise/


"The EPA document also specified two other limits for speech interference and annoyance (55 dBA for outdoors activities and 45 dBA for indoor activities)*. The EPA limits were chosen to protect 96% of the general population from developing hearing loss as well as to protect “public health and welfare” (defined as personal comfort and well-being and absence of mental anguish and annoyance)."
« Last Edit: 01/23/18, 01:18 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #48 on: 01/24/18, 03:09 PM »



Of course you warmed up to the idea of extending the National Park instead of making it Wilderness once you realized it benefits you. No heli-skiing in a National Park, but you could still have your snowmobile. No snowmobiling (or roads, for that matter) in Wilderness. I still can't figure out why your form of motorized transport is acceptable but other peoples' isn't.

my form of motorized transport is restricted to existing roadways, same as car.

One of my machines is so quiet you can hardly hear it coming. The other one is just a little louder. In other words not a noise impact. That of course is by choice.

I don't land my snowmobile on top of a Avy terrain alpine Ridgetop  and drop multiple loads of skiers down upon human powered Backcountry touring groups, track up every line in sight and then disappear to annoy and  place at increase risk of harm  to another human-powered group, with hearing damaging noise impacting human health.



No, I'm afraid it's long past time for NCH turn in their permit and do what's right for our community. They have proven not to be good stewards of the land, and their economic impact to the community is negligible.

National parks have a significant economics benefit to border communities and the land receives greater protection status. In other words the land is being relegated towards its highest best use.

Unless of course you think that commercialized motorized use of a pristine spectacular Mountain environment ( with the exception of the environmental destruction already imposed upon the land by NCH) is that lands highest best use.

Does this serve myself interest? Economically yes. More people will benefit economically from a National Park extension then from the current system of Land Management for that area.

Does this serve myself interest? As far as habitat preservation yes. I believe that all life forms on the planet should be preserved and their habitats protected and not exterminated due to human interference, with the exception of a few strains of bacteria.

Does this serve myself interest? Maybe not. It is possible that snowmobiles would be excluded by a national park extension  along Highway 20 depending upon how the borders would be drawn.




https://headwaterseconomics.org/public-lands/protected-lands/economic-impact-of-national-parks/



"Protected public lands such as national parks can play an important economic role for local communities. This interactive shows jobs and labor income created by visitor spending in gateway communities for every National Park Service unit."

"Visitation and spending directly related to nearby public lands such as national parks annually contribute billions to regional economies while creating hundreds of thousands of private sector jobs."

NCH, DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR OUR COMMUMITY AND AN AREA OF LAND THAT REQUIRES WILDERNESS PROTECTION.

PLEASE STEP ASIDE AND LET PROGRESS HAPPEN
« Last Edit: 01/24/18, 03:16 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: The commercialization of nature
« Reply #49 on: 01/28/18, 09:23 AM »

 here's a cartoon I drew up many years ago in response to finding out that commercial guide Outfitters do not like to discuss their near Miss Avalanche accidents because they are, quote: " bad for business". That quote was told to me by a helicopter ski guide when it was assumed that I was part of Club.



* bctoonride_1r.jpg (29.01 KB, 668x280 - viewed 118 times.)

* bctoonride2.jpg (85.66 KB, 1000x418 - viewed 118 times.)

* bctoonride3.jpg (87.63 KB, 1000x418 - viewed 117 times.)
« Last Edit: 01/28/18, 09:29 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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