- Posts: 259
- Thank you received: 0
Slackcountry trap?
- RonL
- [RonL]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Senior Member
I was up at baker on Wednesday with all the other geniuses and spent some time out in "safety trees" on shuksan arm. I am also introducing someone new to the bc lately and trying to put into words some of the decision making.
I was a little surprised they opened the gate on a day with so much new snow. Most people on the arm were sticking with pretty conservative terrain but a few were venturing into lines with more exposure. I also saw a few tracks down Herman throughout the day.
I guess the part I am struggling with in hindsight is would I have toured the same run had I been hiking the entire thing? Probably not. I imaging I would have gone with something more protected. Was it ok to do because pro patrollers opened the gate and presumably felt it was ok to do so? And as the week goes on will our tracks on the conservative terrain tempt people farther into more prone to slide terrain?
I'm not convinced what we rode was bad decision making, it was a blast, we saw some minimal slabbing but were on the ridge for the hike and mellowish terrain for the turns. The fact that I would have picked a different line without the influence of the gate, the lift access, and all the other tracks down the slope is the part I am second guessing...
Anyway, feel free to beat me up or make feel better I am looking for a way to fit the experience into good advice to some one just getting started in the sport and hoping some of the more knowledgeable and articulate folks here can help.
Oh and happy holidays everyone.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- dberdinka
- [dberdinka]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 66
- Thank you received: 0
I'd also point out that ski patrol had bombed hemispheres Wednesday morning based on the craters I could see and nothing appeared all that reactive.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- RonL
- [RonL]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 259
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- AlpineRose
- [AlpineRose]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 113
- Thank you received: 0
Then as the resort quickly got tracked out, the presence of other people on the arm, and the ok of the pros made going in somewhat more technical terrain seem just fine. Still feel ok for having done it but don't really have a good way to explain to someone why I would be so much more conservative if it was all up to me.
You are nicely demonstrating the effects of heuristic traps and how they influenced your decision making. And how without those heuristics, you would have been more conservative.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- markharf
- [markharf]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 339
- Thank you received: 3
No doubt there is potential I'll be led astray when I try to fold these observations into my own decision-making. No doubt this is especially true if I blindly follow others, generalize too broadly from what seems to have happened to them, or assume my experience will mirror theirs. If the apparent experience of others is my only source of stability information, I'm in trouble. But I gather plenty of useful information this way, and I can't imagine deliberately ignoring what I see.
I don't know if the above is applicable to RonL's original post, and I'm happy (of course) to be told that my approach is faulty in some way.
Mark
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Randito
- [Randito]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 960
- Thank you received: 1
Areas with lift assist see a substantially greater amount of skier traffic, which results in greater compression and compaction of the snowpack and thus greater stability and importantly lower consequences is a release as it is less frequent that a release propagates into deeper snow layers.
So in sum lots of successful sidecountry experience can be a heuristic trap when evaluating the risk of a slope visited infrequently and only by granola powered skiers.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Andrew Carey
- [acarey]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 912
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- tripple
- [tripple]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 1
- Thank you received: 0
I just had a bit to add about the policy that Mt Baker Ski Area operates. I am not an employee but have close ties to many of the people that are trying to keep that place safe. Here is their official policy,
www.mtbaker.us/safety-education/mtn-safety/backcountry-policy
anything else that I am saying is my personal view/opinion.
Mt Baker Ski Area operates under the guidelines of an open boundaries policy. This means that they never open/close their boundaries; they are always open. They also have no "Gates." They have information boards in key locations. On busy backcountry days they often post a patroller on the rope line and check for the 5 required elements before leaving. This allows them to separate themselves from the liability assumed when areas choose to have gates that open and close.Â
The concept is that they draw the line at their ropes and cannot deny you access to any of your National Forest Land (they can deny you entrance to the Canyon and Gunnar's Bowl from the ski area.) Be warned about entering those areas when closed from the BC because they expect you to travel back to the ski area on certain routes (as in don't come down from Hemispheres and expect to ski the Canyon.) Since the ski area is not able to deny you access to the BC they are therefore not responsible for your actions/rescue outside those ropes. If able, they will attempt to preform a rescue outside those ropes, but that is up to available resources.Â
I am glad to hear the OP assessing how other's actions may have altered his own. We all need to keep that in check. I also understand how quickly the inbounds can get tracked out and how easily lift access BC can begin to look like an easy alternative.  I wanted this group to understand that beyond those ropes is Backcountry. The word usage of "slackcountry" implies some sort of safety and hazard mitigation. No control is done beyond the ropes except when special conditions present themselves and Mt Baker Management can prove to Forest Service Officials that without control, the ski area's infrastructure could be damaged. (Yes, I am aware of the Heli bombing, but that is not their standard operations.)
One last thing; The folks that play in these zones would appreciate referring to this zone on the Arm as "Heli Line."Â It would help in changing the perceptions that first time visitors often have. It allows them to make line choice decisions for themselves rather than just the easiest sounding one.Â
Stay Safe, Tripp
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- RonL
- [RonL]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 259
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- pipedream
- [pipedream]
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Posts: 629
- Thank you received: 0
I feel the same way about the Southback at Crystal and Cowboy Ridge at Stevens. There is the potential for death and serious injury, but those areas, when open to the public, always feel safer to me than being out with just your partners miles away from the end of a forest road.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- RonL
- [RonL]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 259
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- hillybilly
- [crosson]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 15
- Thank you received: 0
The real eye opener is that all of these things can you happen to you on-piste inbounds as well. Of all the avalanches I have personally been involved in both were inbounds at ski areas. One was in the ski area's maintained Slackcountry(Not Alpy) and the other was on a main run. I have witnessed at least two others from a distance that were inbounds. Skiers compaction plays a huge role. As a result some folk are less risk averse in areas that are directly accessible from a lift.
But I guess my point is that when you go out Nash or Elevator gate you aren't leaving the resort similar to the King and Southback and Crystal. That isn't "backcountry" like leaving baker resort and skiing the arm. The irony with Alpental is the easiest runs out of the resort is to actually leave the resort all together and ski out of No Fog or Big Trees.
[EDIT] Another note and a key advantage to a resort's inbound slack country but also an advantage to lift accessed backcountry/nearcountry. People are more willing to take risk when they are around other people. Not necessarily from a groupthink sociological perspective. Some people recognize that the effort level to get help during an incident in near country is far more effective. If you are way out in the BC, like skiing off the summit of vesper peak, and take a tumble down headlee pass, it will take major logistics to get you out and it will be a long and slow process. OTH if you take a tumble on the arm just out of the ski area or say in Great Scott bowl at Alpy there is a significant amount of infrastructure and people in the vicinity available to help you. So it is easy to judge but really these are wise decisions. You ski more aggressively closer to resort. Ideally you are skiing most aggressive terrain in the resort. You should be skiing more conservatively the further out you go.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.