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Author Topic: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel  (Read 4336 times)
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #50 on: 01/06/18, 05:33 AM »

Oddly enough, this is exactly what the Cascades Backcountry Alliance is trying to do.
except that it's run by commercial interests.

Many feel that commercial control of our public lands is not a viable sustainable option for the land itself and the valuable habitat it provides, not to mention the ever shrinking Wilderness as a place for humans seeking solace.

You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #51 on: 01/07/18, 12:32 PM »

except that it's run by commercial interests.

Many feel that commercial control of our public lands is not a viable sustainable option for the land itself and the valuable habitat it provides, not to mention the ever shrinking Wilderness as a place for humans seeking solace.

You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

If unfettered  commercial  interests  conttolled the USFS permitting process -- wouldn't we be discussing  the uphill policy at the "Early Winters " ski resort on Sandy Butte?
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #52 on: 01/08/18, 11:38 AM »

If unfettered  commercial  interests  conttolled the USFS permitting process -- wouldn't we be discussing  the uphill policy at the "Early Winters " ski resort on Sandy Butte?
No.

Commercial corporate interests are always chipping away trying to get a bigger piece of the public pie and concerned citizens have to be vigilant.

The people who were against proposed Early Winters Ski Resort raised some valid points concerning air quality and the landholders rights to divert water rights to the proposed ski area 10,000 condo unit project, if I remember correctly.

Early Winters was ultimately stopped through the legal process, by a very determined small group of citizens.

That project had full support from the good old boy club that's contained within the Forest Service.

Need proof of the good old boys club?

Randy do you really believe that a rogue pilot cut all those whitebark pine trees in order to create unauthorized heli-ski Landing zones? Well that's the official Forest Service cover story who are entangled with their corporate partnerships.

The facts say otherwise but those facts were never allowed to be investigated by the law enforcement branch of the FS.*

Humans want to believe whatever supports their bias. Facts are facts, however we also choose to ignore those facts if they're inconsistent with our bias.

I noticed that Crystal Mountain Patrol is not offering any facts as to accident rates involving uphill skiers versus all other accident rates that occur at their ski area.

Neither do the Guide Outfitter corporate- government Partnerships offer their near-miss accident rates unless it can't be hidden.

Am I the only one that thinks facts are important?

Shouldn't policy decisions be based on facts and not the politics of money interests?


"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you."
Jonathan Haidt







* despite repeated public requests the District Ranger would not allow FS forest service law enforcement  to investigate unauthorized tree cutting sites to create an authorized helicopter-ski landing zones that were discovered subsequent to the first sight that was investigated. I've also testified facts related to allegations of false statements being given to FS law enforcement regarding the first cut site. As far as I know that issue is not being investigated.
« Last Edit: 01/08/18, 12:53 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
altasnob
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #53 on: 01/08/18, 12:27 PM »

Here's the decision that stopped the Early Winters ski area from being built in the Methow. Note the lawsuit was brought by Methow Valley Citizens Council, Washington State Sportsmen's Council, Washington Environmental Council, and the Cascade Chapter, Sierra Club, who appealed the Regional Forester's decision to issue a permit to the Chief of the Forest Service, and then appealed the Chief of the Forest Service's decision to federal court.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #54 on: 01/08/18, 01:11 PM »

Here's the decision that stopped the Early Winters ski area from being built in the Methow. Note the lawsuit was brought by Methow Valley Citizens Council, Washington State Sportsmen's Council, Washington Environmental Council, and the Cascade Chapter, Sierra Club, who appealed the Regional Forester's decision to issue a permit to the Chief of the Forest Service, and then appealed the Chief of the Forest Service's decision to federal court.

Thanks for the link.   Interesting reading.   Mule deer vs developers and the Mule Deer's interests carried the day.   Too bad the descendants of those deer continue to be sacrificed along HWY-153 in a regular basis.



* FB_IMG_1515445923664.jpg (79.07 KB, 960x720 - viewed 565 times.)
« Last Edit: 01/08/18, 01:15 PM by Randy » Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #55 on: 01/08/18, 03:30 PM »

Thanks for the link.   Interesting reading.   Mule deer vs developers and the Mule Deer's interests carried the day.   Too bad the descendants of those deer continue to be sacrificed along HWY-153 in a regular basis.


yeah the good old boys club lost that one because the law had to be followed. Makes you wonder what that whole process cost private citizen taxpayers.

 Sandy Butte still got it's ski lift, although no environmental impact statement was performed, only an environmental assessment, more taxpayer money.

It's my understanding that Sandy Butte is an authorized helicopter ski landing Zone  and can be used by the same company for heli ski clients when the weather does not permit flying via use of a snowcat.


Then there was the environmental assessment appeal and an environmental lawsuit and a corrected environmental assessment, and then that whole tree cutting incident. More taxpayer money.

Quite a bargain for us huh, so the wealthy can have a private playground.



I'd have to check the map to confirm the heli Landing Zone so don't take that as fact.

In the meantime I'm sure the Crystal Patrol is preparing those accident statistics and getting ready to post some facts.
« Last Edit: 01/08/18, 03:46 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #56 on: 01/08/18, 08:51 PM »

...

In the meantime I'm sure the Crystal Patrol is preparing those accident statistics and getting ready to post some facts.

Why no ranting against Mission Ridge that bans uphill travel completely during operating hours.
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andyrew
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #57 on: 01/08/18, 09:15 PM »

Sandy Butte still got it's ski lift, although no environmental impact statement was performed, only an environmental assessment, more taxpayer money.

Where?  I've been up it a handful of times in the winter and have only found an old cattle driveway (which was decent skiing, actually).
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #58 on: 01/09/18, 11:29 PM »

Where?  I've been up it a handful of times in the winter and have only found an old cattle driveway (which was decent skiing, actually).
the lift starts at the hell Barn. You get into a helicopter after forking  over around a grand. The helicopter is the skier lift for the wealthy class and a few dreamers for a day.

And like I said in the previous post, the heli company is allowed to operate a snowcat on Sandy Butte on days when the heli can't fly due to weather.

It's about to start operations for the season, so get ready for some very loud, harmful noise pollution, among other activity which has proven to be harmful to human powered Backcountry skiers and other assorted lifeforms in the area.

Oh boy! "Mommy can I become a helicopter guide someday? Is it really possible".

"Yes son you can' but first you have to be a wannabe"

 " Oh gee Mommy that would be wonderful, wouldn't it Mommy?" Grin

In other news: today I passed by a white bark pine tree that had to be a thousand years old. Imagine that, oh the wonders of Mother Nature that never cease to amaze.
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Good2Go
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #59 on: 01/10/18, 09:22 AM »

"Wannabe" what?  Sanctimonious like you?  You know the people who own and run NCH are your neighbors, right?  I see those ladies and guys around the Mazama store whenever I'm out there and they aren't wealthy, at least based on their old trucks and vintage sleds.  Sure appears like they're doing it for the love.  Personally, I like it when they're flying around my intended zone.  Canary in a coal mine. 
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #60 on: 01/10/18, 04:27 PM »

"Wannabe" what?  Sanctimonious like you?  You know the people who own and run NCH are your neighbors, right?  I see those ladies and guys around the Mazama store whenever I'm out there and they aren't wealthy, at least based on their old trucks and vintage sleds.  Sure appears like they're doing it for the love.  Personally, I like it when they're flying around my intended zone.  Canary in a coal mine. 
answer;  wanabe guide.

Guide-Outfitters make a lot of money training guides, but where's the work for them all? Most people don't require or can't afford those services  and are you really safer using those services?

 I mean come on, $300 to take a few laps in the hairpin  without the helicopter.

And figure over a grand a day to take a few laps in the Blue Peak area, Cutthroat, Silver Star, Frisco areas and all the other places that are easily accessible by human Power from Highway 20. But those areas go to the wealthy class starting in January unless you want to tour in there and get f-ed over, or take your chances on a storm day when the helicopters can't fly due to lack of visibility.

I added up my vertical one year and calculated what it would cost for me to have a helicopter lift for the same amount of vertical. Turned out to be something like $23,000 and that's without the benefit of the uphill exercise.

Answer; No, the owners are not my Neighbors.

 They are firmly attached to the government tit with the privilege of an exclusive government public land lease deal, administered and mostly funded by taxpayer money and at the expense of public land resources.

 It's a deal that generates wealth for the already wealthy, at the expensive  of an ordinary citizens right to Peaceful enjoyment of public land, while having to endure increased risk hazards and proven environmental damage.

Does't sound like a great deal for us ordinary citizen taxpayer Backcountry skiers just out to enjoy the peace and quiet of the mountains, seeking solace  and enjoying  friendships just so the wealthy can post pictures of themselves heli-skiing on their Facebook page...

 Are there any other facts that I can help you with?


You know dude, you sure seem ungrateful to someone who tried to save your life by predicting and warning you about specific Avalanche potential in a very specific  location. And look what happened, you triggered that exact spot in Liberty Bowl many years ago. You were lucky.

Someday you may learn to make your own risk analysis and won't have to depend upon others to do it for you. Maybe you won't need a canary in your coal mine as you put it so eloquently.





"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you."
Jonathan Haidt

« Last Edit: 01/10/18, 04:40 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Good2Go
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #61 on: 01/10/18, 07:44 PM »

Ha!  You're being totally delusional (again). We've never spoken, you provided no warning and I owe you no debt of gratitude.  Get a grip.  And unlike you, I actually travel around the northwest (and farther) and make field assessments in all kinds of different zones. Thousands of days in the BC (and alpine rock in the summer) so far and never a scratch (knock on wood).  You only know your back yard, and have an incredible hubris about it too. Hope that never bites you in ass (sincerely).
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #62 on: 01/11/18, 08:16 AM »

Ha!  You're being totally delusional (again). We've never spoken, you provided no warning and I owe you no debt of gratitude.  Get a grip.  And unlike you, I actually travel around the northwest (and farther) and make field assessments in all kinds of different zones. Thousands of days in the BC (and alpine rock in the summer) so far and never a scratch (knock on wood).  You only know your back yard, and have an incredible hubris about it too. Hope that never bites you in ass (sincerely).

I reported snow conditions at a specific location specifically to you in reply 10 of this thread. My reply 10  included a quote from you.  and if you back up in the thread you'll see other instability warnings.

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=30101.0

And here's the quote from me to you.

"Lower down, there is a rain/ warming crust transition below the powder that we could feel.�

Up high, Looks  like some  cross wind loading far skiers left below the walls. Could not see the cornice. Tested a steep wind slab over a hard crust and was suprised it did not move, but who knows really it was such a small, small slab.

If I can be of futher assistance,let me know."

And here's your thread reporting the Avalanche you triggered in the exact spot where I noted that there was cross loading. you charged right in without a ski cut on a steep slope that everyone else was avoiding with the questionable snowpack.

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=30239.0

Your quote:

"On our last run, I traversed at the top to the untouched left side of the field, at full speed, and proceed to rail pow turns unstopped almost to the bottom.� I looked over my shoulder to see where my partner was, and was shocked to discover a fairly big avalanche coming up about 150' behind me.� I was hauling ass at the time, and (lucky for me!!!) the avy was moving pretty slow, so I was able to easily ski down to the left into some trees, outside of its path.� My first thought was that my partner had triggered it somehow, so my main focus was trying to identify any signs of him in the flow as it went by (it lasted a surprisingly long time).� Within a few seconds, my partner skied within sight on the far side of the flow, which was a huge relief.� When the slide stopped a few seconds later, it became clear that I had triggered it, likely when I initially traversed into the field, and had somehow managed to stay in front the entire time, blissfully unaware of what was occurring behind me (pics link below).� A close call for sure.� This experience reaffirmed for me that you can never be 100% sure about stability, especially when dealing with a thin snowpack with some faceted layers at depth.� In hindsight, I'm pretty sure I triggered a wind slab at the top of the field, which is guarded by some large cliffs, and is a significant deposition zone for transported snow. That slab stepped down and triggered a more reactive widespread unstable layer. All of this is just supposition though, as I did not notice any slabby snow whatsoever on the run.� It was "sugar" powder top to bottom.� Be careful out there folks!� "


It's interesting that you think that I only ski in the North Cascades. How would you even know where I've skied?

If there are more facts that I can help you with just let me know.

And please read this quote from a well-known moral psychologist. this will be the third time I posted that specific quote in this thread, I hope you read it as it applies to you and the rest of humankind.

"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you."
Jonathan Haidt

« Last Edit: 01/11/18, 08:31 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
maximusj
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #63 on: 01/11/18, 12:48 PM »

Wait, I'm confused. What does rehashing this 4-year-old argument have to do with uphill travel at Crystal Mountain?

I'll try to bring it back to the topic (but am still a ways off from the simple way the thread started: as I see it, Crystal patrol making a good effort to make their uphill-travel policy known to the BC community).

My questions about unfettered access to our national forest land: Can I drive my snowmobile up the runs at Crystal? Why can't I take my toboggan to Alpental (uphill dog poop trail obviously excluded)? Can I, after all, take my mountain bike on the PCT in the non-wilderness areas? How about going for a fine hike in an area closed for logging operations? A number of forest service campgrounds are privately managed; can I just pitch my tent in the middle of one of those campgrounds?

I guess I have only been BC skiing for ~15 years, and I know there are many folks on here who have been in the BC much longer, but I think the need for uphill access in ski areas is generally new within this time, or I wasn't paying attention. It just doesn't seem very complicated: if you want to ski fresh powder all the time, you'll have to work for it, and there will be days that you can't (or probably shouldn't) ski big terrain. If you want to ski fun terrain that has had avalanche control work done, then you can expect to pay for it. The fact that Crystal says that you can skin up any of their groomed runs without paying (grooming runs is not free) to have easier access to terrain seems generous enough.
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snojones
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #64 on: 01/12/18, 11:17 AM »

 You are right, this issue of ski areas deciding that they will kick out up hill traffic is much older than 15 year.  When I worked  ski patrol, 30 years ago, it was a topic of frequent discussion.  The thing that is different now is the Ski industry selling the idea of back country skiing to down hill skiers.  You mix this with ever more people on the planet and you get businesses trying to monetize snow.  The thinking is that to make it work well you need to keep out the people, who haven't paid for the experience! 

However, the fact is that they have already paid for that experience.  Think about it... ski areas are frequently on the highways that access the most goods (think altitude).   They are, as a result, located on the best public paths to the backcountry.  These highways  were built with public funds and are plowed and patrolled with public funds (at great expense!). - It should come as no surprise that the Public uses these roads to access the backcountry and take advantage of the access to public lands that their taxes paid for.

In all cases, safety should be a paramount consideration.   Avalanche control and ski area operation need to be safe.  However, I am afraid safety consideration is frequently perverted into an excuse to monetize snow and drive up corpirate profits.  This is where distrust of the industry spawns among the people who subsidize these corpirate profits.

It is sad that Public Rights seems to get left out of the discussion.  It is sad because with out that Public there would BE NO SKI AREAS!  Most ski areas were pioneered by up hill skiers, who sought to share their mountains with their fellow citizens. 

It is also sad that ski areas drive off potential customers with these exclusive bans.  Think about it..... Who has the best chance of becoming a serious skier?  The casual skier who goes up to ski the lifts once or twice a year?... or the snowy junky who is willing to drive 100 miles,  then climb for hours in the August sun, just to get another 15 minute run?  My money is on those snow junkies.  Those snow junkies are the best hope for expanding their customer base into the future and thus leading to increased ski area profits.  VERY FEW BACKCOUNRY SKIERS LEARNED OR MAINTAIN THEIR CHOPS WITH OUT FREQUENTLY USING LIFTS!

Too much of the Public's Right to Access has been lost to this myopic corpirate thinking.  The only answer to this threat is to stand up and speak out.  This is what the open access advocates are talking about in this thread.  Backcountry..... use it or loose it.
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flowing alpy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #65 on: 01/12/18, 07:56 PM »

the southern resort charges for premium parking for established guests
I feel the source lake dog park LoT4 needs to be paid permit parking too.
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kneel turner
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #66 on: 01/12/18, 09:04 PM »

@ snowjones,
That is very well put. I share a few of the same concerns.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: 01/12/18, 11:19 PM by kneel turner » Logged

No, I'm not a telephone solicitor. I ski with my heels free.
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