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Author Topic: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel  (Read 4335 times)
Good2Go
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #25 on: 12/29/17, 04:44 PM »

A liability waver is not a legal get out of jail free card. If negligence can be proven it's not worth the paper it's written on. Welcome to the "real world" Wink


Ha!  You seem so sure of yourself when you're wrong.  Does that usually work for you?  Waivers trump negligence.  It's recklessness that can overcome a waiver.  And that's very hard to prove nowadays. The case law on this topic is mature and the waivers have evolved accordingly.  Real world stuff.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #26 on: 12/29/17, 05:09 PM »

Ski area land is leased for a private purpose.  They are given broad discretion to operate their business.  They don't need much reason to bar you.  Look at the snowboarder suits against Alta as an example.  You don't have a right to skin in a ski area.

 
and that lease agreement, which is FS commercial  special use permit, specifies the following:


"F.  Area Access. Except for any restrictions as the holder and the authorized officer may agree to be necessary to protect the installation of and operation of authorized structures and developments, the lands and waters covered by this permit shall remain open to the public for all lawful purposes.  To facilitate public use of this area, all existing roads or roads as may be constructed by the holder, shall remain open to the public, except for roads as may be closed by joint agreement of the holder and the authorized officer"

It seems as though the ski areas are trying to use a Washington state law, concerning trail closures to all members of the public due to safety, to nullify the public access terms of their  special use permit specifically  directed towards members of the public who choose to skin up, while keeping Public Access open for paying customers.

 In other words they are trying to use that Washington state law to restrict Public Access only to paying customers. That obviously is not the intent of that Washington State law and not consistent with the terms of their Federal special use permits.

 Try to keep up, good2go.
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Good2Go
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #27 on: 12/29/17, 05:38 PM »

Ha!  This is kinda fun, like stealing candy from a baby.  Problem is your analysis is flawed.  These type of leases have been extensively interpreted by courts already, e.g., the snowboarders who sued Alta.  And those cases establish my original point, the operator has broad discretion to determine what works best for their business, including who can access the leased property.  The reasons they can offer for banning touring will all pass muster IMO (e.g., preservation of snow for paying customers (i.e., the resource that the lease is based upon), skinners don't obey rules (true!), skinners add liability risk to the operation with no commensurate receipt of value, etc.).  You seem to think there is some constitutional right to access all public land. That's far from the case.  But, by all means I encourage you to start suing ASAP.  Talk is cheap.  Prove me wrong.
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KLW
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #28 on: 12/29/17, 06:07 PM »

Ha!  You seem so sure of yourself when you're wrong.  Does that usually work for you?  Waivers trump negligence.  It's recklessness that can overcome a waiver.  And that's very hard to prove nowadays. The case law on this topic is mature and the waivers have evolved accordingly.  Real world stuff.

I didn't realize that we were in a court room and I was required to use the exact legal language. My apologies. Recklessness or perhaps "gross negligence" is the word(s)  I should have used? Thank you for parsing my language and affirming my point that liability waivers do not release one from all liability.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #29 on: 12/29/17, 07:54 PM »

Could you elaborate on your statement with some actual facts?

 If what you were saying is true, sounds like the patrol is closing areas that are extremely hazardous, however they're obviously still leaving areas open that are relatively safe.

I have no problem with actual safety concerns being implemented and hazardous areas closed.

....

I believe this incident http://media.nwac.us.s3.amazonaws.com/media/filer_public/18/6a/186a5299-1364-4504-8de7-551f62691e26/cmt_kempers_accdnt-02-03-01.pdf

Is part of the reason that the Kempers area is permanently closed.

I recall some fatalities in the "Rockface" area in the pre-internet age -- not easy to find online citations for those.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #30 on: 12/29/17, 10:55 PM »

Ha!  This is kinda fun, like stealing candy from a baby.  Problem is your analysis is flawed.  These type of leases have been extensively interpreted by courts already, e.g., the snowboarders who sued Alta.  And those cases establish my original point, the operator has broad discretion to determine what works best for their business, including who can access the leased property.  The reasons they can offer for banning touring will all pass muster IMO (e.g., preservation of snow for paying customers (i.e., the resource that the lease is based upon), skinners don't obey rules (true!), skinners add liability risk to the operation with no commensurate receipt of value, etc.).  You seem to think there is some constitutional right to access all public land. That's far from the case.  But, by all means I encourage you to start suing ASAP.  Talk is cheap.  Prove me wrong.

 what part of section F of the special use permit don't you understand?

 "F. Area Access. Except for any restrictions as the holder and the authorized officer may agree to be necessary to protect the installation of and operation of authorized structures and developments, the lands and waters covered by this permit shall remain open to the public for all lawful purposes.  To facilitate public use of this area, all existing roads or roads as may be constructed by the holder, shall remain open to the public, except for roads as may be closed by joint agreement of the holder and the authorized officer"

Crystal Mountain has a lease agreement between Crystal Mountain and the public.

Ultimately it may be up to a judge to decide.



« Last Edit: 12/29/17, 11:05 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
BCSchonwald
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #31 on: 12/30/17, 11:23 AM »

I agree with Good2Go, this is like dog chasing its tail;
WA State Law protects the right of ski area closures, which answers the question in the USFS Permit.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.45.070
'Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure.'
[ 2011 c 276 § 1.]

As far as I know there is no case law denying public access when ski areas have closures going against the ski areas because the law and the lease permit support their decisions.

Permanent closures at Crystal such as 'the Waterfall' have two fatalities and Rock Face is an unstable zone above the only easy run down Kelly's Gap Road, so there is history of denying public access for safety.

I would be interested to see exactly where in the Constitution, its Amendments, the Federalist Papers, and/or any Supreme Court decisions that state the public has unobstructed access to public lands that have been to private entities providing public recreation services.

As for Commercial Use, every time a client/customer signs up for a trip they have a right to ask about our safety record and when they sign a waiver they are informed of the risks. If you read all 13 listed Hazards and Risks then hopefully you are informed and in a court these need to proved against negligence of the company and its employees. Most people may not read the entire list, which includes(#13) Fatigue, Lack of Coordination and ability to follow instructions, which seems to be the case here.

See Content of Waiver below:

Please read and be certain you understand the implications of signing. Express assumption of Risk Associated with Mountaineering, Climbing, and Related Activities. I, do hereby affirm and acknowledge that I have been fully informed of the inherent hazards and risks associated with Mountaineering, Rock Climbing, Ski Touring and Indoor Climbing activities, transportation of equipment related to the activities, and traveling to and from activities sites of which I am about to engage in. Inherent hazards and risks include but are not limited to: 1. Risk of injury from the activity and equipment utilized in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing is significant including the potential for permanent disability and death. 2. Possible equipment failure and/or malfunction of my own or others’ equipment. 3. My own negligence and/or the negligence of others, including employees, agents, independent contractors or representatives of ________ , including but not limited to operator error. 4. Injury to hands, fingers, feet, and toes, including but not limited to inflammation and/or strain of muscles ligaments and/or tendons, nerve damage or compression, and broken bones. 5. Injury from falling may occur from exposure to high altitude, which may affect judgment and coordination, or from not paying close attention to your climbing or others climbing with or near you. 6. Broken bones, severe injuries to the head, neck, and back which may result in severe physical impairment or even death. 7. Discharge of weapons in or near the area of activity. 8. Cold weather and heat related injuries and illness including but not limited to frostnip, frost bite, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, sunburn, hypothermia, and dehydration. 9. Exposure to outdoor elements, including but not limited to avalanche, rock fall, inclement weather, thunder and lightning, severe and or varied wind, temperature or weather conditions. 10. Attack by or encounter with insects, reptiles, and/or animals. 11. Accidents or illness occurring in remote places where there are no available medical facilities. 12. Fatigue chill, and/or dizziness, which may diminish my/our reaction time and increase the risk of accident. 13. My sense of balance, physical coordination, and ability to follow instructions. *I understand the description of these risks is not complete and that unknown or unanticipated risks may result in injury, illness, or death. Release of Liability, Waiver of Claims and Indemnity Agreement In consideration for being permitted to participate in any way in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing and related activities, I hereby agree, acknowledge and appreciate that: I HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, the following named persons or entities, herein referred to as release. ______ To release the releasees, their officers, directors, employees, representatives, agents, and volunteers, and vessels from liability and responsibility whatsoever and for any claims or causes of action that I, my estate, heirs, survivors, executors, or assigns may have for personal injury, property damage, or wrongful death arising from the above activities whether caused by activity or passive negligence of the releasees or otherwise. By executing the document, I agree to hold the releasees harmless and indemnify them in conjunction with any injury, disability, death, or loss or damage to person or property that may occur as a result of engaging in the above activities. By entering into this Agreement, I am not relying on any oral or written representation or statement made by the releasees, other than what is set forth in this Agreement. This release shall be binding to the fullest extent permitted by law. If any provisions of the release is found to be unenforceable, the remaining terms shall be enforced.
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snoqpass
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #32 on: 12/30/17, 12:59 PM »

If a ski run is closed to uphill traffic because of extreme crowding on that run, maybe the problem isn't the uphill skier. Maybe the ski area is just selling too many tickets and overcrowding is occurring that is leading to safety concerns.



A good example of greed taking precedence over safety is using Ski Patrol folks to toss bombs instead of spending the money for ava-lanchers. Every time an explosive charge goes off near the human body, the concussion causes the brain to rattle just a bit. long-term exposure leads to brain damage.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/shock-waves-may-create-dangerous-bubbles-brain-180957396/

 Are the patrolman being fairly compensated for the risks that they incur?  or are they just cannon fodder for the corporate world?




The first statement defies logic, the second shows you don’t have a very good understanding of avalanche control and developed ski areas
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #33 on: 12/30/17, 01:43 PM »

I agree with Good2Go, this is like dog chasing its tail;
WA State Law protects the right of ski area closures, which answers the question in the USFS Permit.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.45.070
'Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure.'
[ 2011 c 276 § 1.]

As far as I know there is no case law denying public access when ski areas have closures going against the ski areas because the law and the lease permit support their decisions.

Permanent closures at Crystal such as 'the Waterfall' have two fatalities and Rock Face is an unstable zone above the only easy run down Kelly's Gap Road, so there is history of denying public access for safety.

I would be interested to see exactly where in the Constitution, its Amendments, the Federalist Papers, and/or any Supreme Court decisions that state the public has unobstructed access to public lands that have been to private entities providing public recreation services.

As for Commercial Use, every time a client/customer signs up for a trip they have a right to ask about our safety record and when they sign a waiver they are informed of the risks. If you read all 13 listed Hazards and Risks then hopefully you are informed and in a court these need to proved against negligence of the company and its employees. Most people may not read the entire list, which includes(#13) Fatigue, Lack of Coordination and ability to follow instructions, which seems to be the case here.

See Content of Waiver below:

Please read and be certain you understand the implications of signing. Express assumption of Risk Associated with Mountaineering, Climbing, and Related Activities. I, do hereby affirm and acknowledge that I have been fully informed of the inherent hazards and risks associated with Mountaineering, Rock Climbing, Ski Touring and Indoor Climbing activities, transportation of equipment related to the activities, and traveling to and from activities sites of which I am about to engage in. Inherent hazards and risks include but are not limited to: 1. Risk of injury from the activity and equipment utilized in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing is significant including the potential for permanent disability and death. 2. Possible equipment failure and/or malfunction of my own or others’ equipment. 3. My own negligence and/or the negligence of others, including employees, agents, independent contractors or representatives of ________ , including but not limited to operator error. 4. Injury to hands, fingers, feet, and toes, including but not limited to inflammation and/or strain of muscles ligaments and/or tendons, nerve damage or compression, and broken bones. 5. Injury from falling may occur from exposure to high altitude, which may affect judgment and coordination, or from not paying close attention to your climbing or others climbing with or near you. 6. Broken bones, severe injuries to the head, neck, and back which may result in severe physical impairment or even death. 7. Discharge of weapons in or near the area of activity. 8. Cold weather and heat related injuries and illness including but not limited to frostnip, frost bite, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, sunburn, hypothermia, and dehydration. 9. Exposure to outdoor elements, including but not limited to avalanche, rock fall, inclement weather, thunder and lightning, severe and or varied wind, temperature or weather conditions. 10. Attack by or encounter with insects, reptiles, and/or animals. 11. Accidents or illness occurring in remote places where there are no available medical facilities. 12. Fatigue chill, and/or dizziness, which may diminish my/our reaction time and increase the risk of accident. 13. My sense of balance, physical coordination, and ability to follow instructions. *I understand the description of these risks is not complete and that unknown or unanticipated risks may result in injury, illness, or death. Release of Liability, Waiver of Claims and Indemnity Agreement In consideration for being permitted to participate in any way in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing and related activities, I hereby agree, acknowledge and appreciate that: I HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, the following named persons or entities, herein referred to as release. ______ To release the releasees, their officers, directors, employees, representatives, agents, and volunteers, and vessels from liability and responsibility whatsoever and for any claims or causes of action that I, my estate, heirs, survivors, executors, or assigns may have for personal injury, property damage, or wrongful death arising from the above activities whether caused by activity or passive negligence of the releasees or otherwise. By executing the document, I agree to hold the releasees harmless and indemnify them in conjunction with any injury, disability, death, or loss or damage to person or property that may occur as a result of engaging in the above activities. By entering into this Agreement, I am not relying on any oral or written representation or statement made by the releasees, other than what is set forth in this Agreement. This release shall be binding to the fullest extent permitted by law. If any provisions of the release is found to be unenforceable, the remaining terms shall be enforced.

why are you guys so afraid to post your near-miss accidents on your website so a potential client can review the safety record of the guide Outfitter service they are considering hiring for a trip?

Instead you entertain them in your office, slap a waiver in front of them while they're all warm and cozy, Here sign this or go home.

Let your potential clients start considering risk analysis associated with Mountain Travel from the safety of their home and discussion with friends and family.

When you guys purposely hide risk (actual incidents not generalized risks)fron the General Public you create an illusion concerning the actual risk associated with hiring a guide.

Below is a Highway 20 hairpin incident that made it to the nwac observation page but a quick review did not reveal that it showed up in the annual Avalanche incident reports. But I'll check again

 Two seasons ago, my friend didn't sign a liability waiver when he had an avalanche path purposely ski cut off above him by Guide Service company owner. The resulting Avalanche could have had fatal consequences.

 the path had a clear line of sight, it is above our locals well known safe route to the Northeast bowls in that area.our route goes up through old growth trees and only crosses below that path for a matter of minutes. That path rarely releases naturally.

 fresh D3 natural release Avalanches where noted that day on similar aspects.

The guide chose the regular guide route through the head of the hairpin and across a prolific Avalanche path that has seen near Miss accidents including a natural Avalanche hitting a guide Outfitter owner there in 2008.

Another guide Outfitter owner at the head of the hair pin had a client hit from above from by an  accidental skier trigger Avalanche while  that skier was skinning up above and out of line of sight from the descending guide client group. The guide client group actually descended underneath the skinning local skiers going up for their second lap. Also 2008.

 the guide that triggered the Avalanche above my friend entered into the bowl that my friend was in from a different Bowl from a common fall line Ridge feature.

There is a strong case here for negligent Behavior and yet no accountability and no action was taken by the forest service.

Are you saying because the guide Outfitter has a special use permit to operate in that area he has the right to exclude the public from that area because there is a risk to the general public because of possible Avalanche control work being performed?

In europe a similar case was prosecuted.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20171213/three-skiers-convicted-after-causing-avalanche-that-injured-two-others

I want the same thing that you want,  safe use of public land for all, including skinning access at ski areas.

Crystal Mountain is not going to get there by  threatening to close Public Access to uphill traffic because of the actions of a few Rogue or uninformed individuals.

Such an action would deserve a court challenge.

 Neither of us are sitting judges so I doubt our opinion really matters much now does it, except to shine light on multiple legitimate safety concerns.

In other words people will be thinking now more about this issue because now they have different points of view to consider.

 Each and everyone of us including the ski areas has seen dramatic changes with the social and safety issues associated with increasing crowds. We need to learn to adapt our attitudes.

A threat, do this or else suffer our punishment, by the Crystal Mountain Patrol is a poor attitude and only adds fuel to the fire.

Maybe Crystal Mountain needs to take a less threatening posture when seeking a solution to a legitimate safety concern.

« Last Edit: 12/30/17, 02:29 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #34 on: 12/30/17, 08:53 PM »

The first statement defies logic, the second shows you don’t have a very good understanding of avalanche control and developed ski areas
maybe you should enlighten me as I'm sure you know more about Bubble brain then I do. Or is it a denial thing like the NFL?

 I don't know much, but I do know that I could feel the concussive force from Avalanche control work from the Stevens Pass parking lot.

 how much are patrolman paid to risk their lives such as the one in Randy's example who got caught in an avalanche?

Or this example:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ski-patroller-killed-avalanche-control-20170124-story,amp.html

"Ski patroller dies when explosive charge detonates during avalanche control at Squaw Valley resort"
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
snoqpass
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #35 on: 12/31/17, 09:34 AM »

Stevens Pass was probably using the Mother Of all Avalanche Bombs that morning
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snoqpass
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #36 on: 01/01/18, 09:47 AM »

maybe you should enlighten me as I'm sure you know more about Bubble brain then I do. Or is it a denial thing like the NFL?
The article you linked about bubble brain clearly states it’s just a hypothesis based on test of cells grown from rats
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Jim Oker
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #37 on: 01/02/18, 12:01 PM »

Umm, people spend much more time as obstacles to downhill skiers when skinning uphill than when resting on  runs. And often they spend time in spots where few skiers would stop unless they'd fallen yard-sale style. So there's that difference, for starters...

And those skiers who have passes have agreed to abide by ski area rules or else lose the pass and the right to  be in the  lease area. So  there's that difference between the lift-served skiers and the free-range folks. Calling the two the same is a false equivalence with respect to the uphill travel rules.

Hitting those two fallacies, I lost interest in the apparent diatribe. Fortunately there are plenty of places, even within great sight lines of Crystal, to ski tour well  outside of the ski area boundaries.
« Last Edit: 01/02/18, 01:41 PM by Jim Oker » Logged
cornRIDE
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #38 on: 01/03/18, 09:30 AM »

go ski.

you shouldn't have to use your brain this much to do it.

concussions from avy control? waiver analysis? uphill within crystal sidecountry while operating on a weekend? you have to be kidding me.

bunch of girly-men bitching on the internet from their condo or cubicle about front country/legal drama. your skis don't care- they just want to go ski. be more like your skis.
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CBAlliance
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WWW
Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #39 on: 01/03/18, 01:43 PM »

Hi All,

We have been trying to work with Crystal to build some better map products, which you can view here below. We have also been talking to the resort to try and work out some solutions for the backcountry community, with the goal of the resort seeing the importance of skinning folk to their community overall and the value that uphill travelers bring to the resort. While there many logistical hurdles, we are still pushing for reasonable access to the Crystal Lakes basin, as we understand the value of that terrain for folks.

That said, much of the patrol at Crystal are avid backcountry skiers and Crystal wants to welcome these folks as much as possible. They have put forth a lot of good-faith efforts to keep accommodating our needs in the face of some pretty blatant and stupid behavior (people skinning up under control work, people skinning up to ride the upper lifts for free... the list goes on). We appreciate it and continue to reap the benefits of relatively reasonable access from the end of the boulevard.

To echo some of the above sentiments: There is a vast amount of terrain near Crystal with great skiing that you can skin to without interacting with the resort scene beyond the parking lot. Arguing about the theoretical legal rights you have to go get a bomb tossed on your head is irrelevant and antithetical to what everyone wants to go do, which is go have a nice time skiing in a quiet place away from a lift line. If you do want to head up towards Pickhandle or 3-way peak, go check in with patrol and make sure you know where you can and can't go. If you just want to get some exercise or test out new gear, the mine-to-market road up Gold hills is always open. Whatever you do, please be cognizant that you represent a community. Crystal as a community may be a commercial entity, but it is made up of people who recognize the value of backcountry skiing and are doing what they can to reach out to us. Let's take ownership of our part of that interaction.

Click on the map to go to the functional version on google maps- forum software won't let me embed the actual map.

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cascadebackcountryalliance.org
Good2Go
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Posts: 270


Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #40 on: 01/03/18, 11:41 PM »

go ski.

you shouldn't have to use your brain this much to do it.

concussions from avy control? waiver analysis? uphill within crystal sidecountry while operating on a weekend? you have to be kidding me.

bunch of girly-men bitching on the internet from their condo or cubicle about front country/legal drama. your skis don't care- they just want to go ski. be more like your skis.

How can we tell if our skis are girly or manly?  Can you suggest a brand?
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #41 on: 01/04/18, 01:03 PM »

Umm, people spend much more time as obstacles to downhill skiers when skinning uphill than when resting on  runs. And often they spend time in spots where few skiers would stop unless they'd fallen yard-sale style. So there's that difference, for starters...

And those skiers who have passes have agreed to abide by ski area rules or else lose the pass and the right to  be in the  lease area. So  there's that difference between the lift-served skiers and the free-range folks. Calling the two the same is a false equivalence with respect to the uphill travel rules.

Hitting those two fallacies, I lost interest in the apparent diatribe. Fortunately there are plenty of places, even within great sight lines of Crystal, to ski tour well  outside of the ski area boundaries.
uphill skier traffic is easily avoidable and it is the descending skiers responsibility to avoid all obstacles below.

That would include trees, rocks, stream beds, lift towers, lift shacks, ropes, fences, lift lines, and stationary Ski School classes,all of which spend much more time as obstacles to descending skiers at a given location then an uphill skier.

In addition while each descending skier may just rest in one location and move on quickly, multiply that times the number of skiers at a ski area who actually do that, and you have hundreds of obstacles that need to be considered and avoided.


Just because you state that it's a fallacy does not make it so, that is just your opinion.

 Generally a debate fallacy is defined as leveling personal attacks, (which seems to be an acceptable policy here at turns all year),red herring arguments, arguing against strawmen Etc.

But since you believe that uphill skier traffic is such a safety hazard, I'm sure you have data that details collisions between downhill skiers and uphill skier traffic to back up your opinion. 

That number could be correlated with all other skier collisions to determine what the actual risk and safety hazards are.

 Like I said maybe the ski areas are just selling too many tickets which is creating overcrowding hazards to all concerned.

Want a liability waiver for uphill skiers, no problem, make that a sign in policy and charge a dollar.

 Not everyone can afford to buy a ticket at a ski area, and ski areas are an excellent place to learn and condition for the rigors of the backcountry.

In addition the backcountry is not always a safe place to be, so the PUBLIC LAND, which the ski area occupies, is a good alternative for those days.

Didn't we go through a similar to debate when ticket holding area skiers wanted to access the side country? Ie access to PUBLIC LAND.

 Oh and then there's the fact of section F. of the special use permit. Personally I believe this is an issue of law that can only be decided in a court of law. That is our system, like it or not.

Look Jim I get it.   I see who the turns all year ad supporters are.

 If Turns all year  wants to be a true representation of backcountry skiers, then there's going to be different points of view and expect push back against commercial expansion, and the ideal of commercialism.

 Or maybe just change the name to 'commercials all year'.

For many of us the backcountry is not about commercial ideals. And look now, we even an organization set up by commercial interest pretending to represent the interest of backcountry Skiers. Sad.

For many of us recreating in nature has more to do with the human spirit and honoring this great, wonderous, beautiful planet that thrives with all forms of LIFE.

Many of us would like to keep it that way..
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 01:14 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #42 on: 01/04/18, 02:38 PM »

FWIW:

Mission ridge's uphill policy excludes uphill travel completely within the permit boundary from 7:00AM to 5:00PM on dats when the lifts will spin.   

Snoqualmie (non-Alpental)  areas have a fairly liberal uphill policy -- but then they should,  in the '80s Kittitas county tried to assess  an "admissions tax" on lift ticket sales.  Ski Lifts Inc successfully contested the tax by claiming it was a "lift ticket" only and a lift ticket was not required for admission to the permit area. 

Alpental is in King County bans skinning in the permit area,  they use bombs and ski cuts to intentionally kick off avalanches.  The kind of stuff Crystal does in Southback..
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 02:43 PM by Randy » Logged
haggis
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #43 on: 01/04/18, 03:05 PM »

RE Alpental uphill policy, not strictly true randy.  Per the summits website which has been posted here several times:

Rules of Uphill Travel: Specific to Alpental

At Alpental during the operating season uphill use is allowed ONLY WHEN THE AREA IS OPEN TO CUSTOMERS. When Alpental is closed to customers, it is closed to uphill travelers. This means that if no Alpental chair lift is open to guests, you may not travel uphill; including periods when lifts are delayed or on standby, Mondays, at night or any other period of closure during the operating season.
•Before heading uphill, you must first make contact with patrol staff to determine whether a route can be approved for that day and time.
•This policy applies to all terrain, including the Back Bowls area.
•When traveling to areas beyond the boundary such as Chair Peak or Snow Lake, always stay climbers right and off of any path or resort return trail. Uphill travel is not allowed for any terrain on the South side of the Alpental Valley until you reach Source Lake.
•From Source Lake the distinct drainage known as Great Scott trends south and up to the Tooth and Pineapple Pass. These areas are outside the resort boundary and open to ski touring and other forest users, but please do not travel east into the Alpental ski area permitted terrain.


FWIW:

Mission ridge's uphill policy excludes uphill travel completely within the permit boundary from 7:00AM to 5:00PM on dats when the lifts will spin.   

Snoqualmie (non-Alpental)  areas have a fairly liberal uphill policy -- but then they should,  in the '80s Kittitas county tried to assess  an "admissions tax" on lift ticket sales.  Ski Lifts Inc successfully contested the tax by claiming it was a "lift ticket" only and a lift ticket was not required for admission to the permit area. 

Alpental is in King County bans skinning in the permit area,  they use bombs and ski cuts to intentionally kick off avalanches.  The kind of stuff Crystal does in Southback..
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #44 on: 01/04/18, 04:18 PM »

Thanks for the clarification.

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Lowell_Skoog
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #45 on: 01/04/18, 05:37 PM »

Umm, people spend much more time as obstacles to downhill skiers when skinning uphill than when resting on runs. And often they spend time in spots where few skiers would stop unless they'd fallen yard-sale style.

I agree with these statements in cases where the uphill skier isn't using good route judgement. Totally true.

I think uphill skiers have the responsibility to travel in places where they are either out of the way of downhill skiers or easily visible from a distance. This is generally not hard to do if the uphill skier uses reasonable judgement.

There are some places (e.g. beneath knolls and through chokes) where uphill skiing is never a good idea. In these cases uphill skiers should either get off the run (into the woods) or choose a different path altogether. This is just common sense and good citizenship.

Look Jim I get it.   I see who the turns all year ad supporters are.

If Turns all year wants to be a true representation of backcountry skiers, then there's going to be different points of view and expect push back against commercial expansion, and the ideal of commercialism.

Or maybe just change the name to 'commercials all year'.

Honestly, this is hilarious. You're smearing TAY for being too commercial? It's the least commercial site I visit on any regular basis. Your axe must be getting pretty small with all the grinding you've done on it.
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 06:15 PM by Lowell_Skoog » Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #46 on: 01/04/18, 06:14 PM »

I agree with these statements in cases where the uphill skier isn't using good route judgement. Totally true.

I think uphill skiers have the responsibility to travel in places where they are either out of the way of downhill skiers or easily visible from a distance. This is generally not hard to do if the uphill skier uses reasonable judgement.

There are some places (e.g. beneath knolls and through chokes) where uphill skiing is never a good idea. In these cases uphill skiers should either get off the run (into the woods) or choose a different path altogether. This is just common sense and good citizenship.

Honestly, this is hilarious. You're smearing TAY for being too commercial? It's the least commercial site I visit on any regular basis. Your axe must be getting pretty small with all the grinding you've done on it.


You can offer your opinion without attacking me personally because I have a opinion  contrary to yours.

The least commercial site that I visit doesn't have advertising. It is supported by the community of members and the altruistic offerings of the owner.

 So yeah the facts indicate that this is a commercially supported site. Is a fact a smear or is a fact a fact?

 Maybe you're enamored with the site because you believe it's a true representation of who Backcountry skiers are.

 Most don't Revel in drawing attention to themselves through self-serving self promotion. Oops the axe just got a little smaller.
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 06:23 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Lowell_Skoog
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #47 on: 01/04/18, 06:38 PM »

So yeah the facts indicate that this is a commercially supported site. Is a fact a smear or is a fact a fact?

Suggesting that this site be renamed "commercials all year" is a smear.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #48 on: 01/04/18, 06:58 PM »

Suggesting that this site be renamed "commercials all year" is a smear.
and that offended you enough that you decided to launch a personal attack?

 I forgot to add that self-serving self-promotion is an ideal found in the commercial world. I see the commercial world as an invasion, similar to a destructive virus,when it enters the natural world.

Here are some words of wisdom to ponder.

"Morality binds and blinds. It binds us into ideological teams that fight each other as though the fate of the world depended on our side winning each battle. It blinds us to the fact that each team is composed of good people who have something important to say."
Jonathan Haidt, The Righteous Mind:


"We should not expect individuals to produce good, open-minded, truth-seeking reasoning, particularly when self-interest or reputational concerns are in play. But if you put individuals together in the right way, such that some individuals can use their reasoning powers to disconfirm the claims of others, and all individuals feel some common bond or shared fate that allows them to interact civilly, you can create a group that ends up producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system. This is why it's so important to have intellectual and ideological diversity within any group or institution whose goal is to find truth (such as an intelligence agency or a community of scientists) or to produce good public policy (such as a legislature or advisory board)."
Jonathan Haidt,


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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
AlpineRose
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Posts: 176


Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #49 on: 01/04/18, 10:16 PM »

Quote
if you put individuals together in the right way, such that some individuals can use their reasoning powers to disconfirm the claims of others, and all individuals feel some common bond or shared fate that allows them to interact civilly, you can create a group that ends up producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system. This is why it's so important to have intellectual and ideological diversity within any group or institution whose goal is to find truth (such as an intelligence agency or a community of scientists) or to produce good public policy (such as a legislature or advisory board)

Oddly enough, this is exactly what the Cascades Backcountry Alliance is trying to do.
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