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Author Topic: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel  (Read 4334 times)
Crystal Patrol
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Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« on: 12/10/17, 02:55 PM »

Now that Crystal Mountain is open we ask that everyone adheres to our uphill travel policy. You can find the link on our website here.

Here it is in a nutshell: when we are not doing avalanche control anywhere in the ski area we allow uphill travel on designated runs. Those runs may change slightly based on our crowds and conditions. Everyone skinning up within our ski area boundary must check in with the patrol every day (one per group is okay) in order to find out the approved route.

The Mine to Market Road (the cat track that heads to the Gold Hills Cabins) is outside of our ski area boundary and always open to uphill travel. Also, we can no longer allow uphill travel in Southback now that we are open for the season. This is an area where we do avalanche control, and any uphill travel is strictly prohibited.

We’ve noticed a skin track in the Exit Chute and some posts on social media of skiers in this area. If this continues we will have to restrict all uphill travel within our ski area boundary at all times. Don’t be the guy/gal that ruins it for everybody. Just to clarify: it’s okay to travel into the part of Silver Basin that’s not in our ski area boundary, but not okay to skin/hike into Southback, which extends from the top of the Throne to the Three Way Exit Chute.

Feel free to stop in and ask questions at the patrol station near the bottom of the gondola. We also have a snow safety board with recent pits and forecasts.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #1 on: 12/10/17, 05:40 PM »

Question:  I was touring outside the permit boundary a few weeks ago (1st day the lifts were spinning actually)   My party checked in with Ski Patrol in the morning.

When we stopped by the ski patrol office at 3:45pm I discovered that the Crystal Ski Patrol had tried calling my and my ski partner's cell phones several (20?) minutes earlier.  Since the phones were in airplane mode to conserve battery, we didn't answer.   Crystal Ski Patrol then called my emergency contact -- which freaked her out.

So I'm wondering if calling the cell numbers of backcountry parties is now something that is part of Crystal's "sweep" procedure?   
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kneel turner
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #2 on: 12/10/17, 06:28 PM »

So no uphill travel within south Back? No more Throne/King/Threeway access? What a shame.
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No, I'm not a telephone solicitor. I ski with my heels free.
kneel turner
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #3 on: 12/10/17, 06:36 PM »

BTW, funny (not) that the marketing department uses those photos on Facebook as promotional material.
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jeremyallyn
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #4 on: 12/10/17, 07:58 PM »

Crystal Patrol - I think it would be very helpful if you post a USGS topo map (1:24,000 scale with the line drawn on it) on your website in addition to the FatMap screen shot. Your description of Southback vs. Silver Basin is good, but it would be even better if it was accompanied by a topo. A lot of folks have a hard time placing local names and runs once they get in the terrain (especially in bad vis, or if they're new to the area) and I'm sure they would appreciate a real map plus the aerial shot. Thanks!
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altasnob
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #5 on: 12/10/17, 09:24 PM »

Here's what I believe patrol is saying


* silver_basin_terrain_TAY.jpg (195.44 KB, 799x550 - viewed 1466 times.)

* silver_basin_topo_TAY.jpg (246.46 KB, 690x464 - viewed 1470 times.)
« Last Edit: 12/10/17, 09:29 PM by altasnob » Logged
altasnob
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #6 on: 12/10/17, 09:31 PM »

Here is the "exit chute" skiers left side of three-way that they are referring to. Not ok to skin up (so you must go the long way to get to Crystal Lakes, if that is your destination).

Crystal's uphill policy post from last year.
« Last Edit: 12/11/17, 08:07 AM by altasnob » Logged
Crystal Patrol
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #7 on: 12/11/17, 04:01 PM »

Question:  I was touring outside the permit boundary a few weeks ago (1st day the lifts were spinning actually)   My party checked in with Ski Patrol in the morning.

When we stopped by the ski patrol office at 3:45pm I discovered that the Crystal Ski Patrol had tried calling my and my ski partner's cell phones several (20?) minutes earlier.  Since the phones were in airplane mode to conserve battery, we didn't answer.   Crystal Ski Patrol then called my emergency contact -- which freaked her out.

So I'm wondering if calling the cell numbers of backcountry parties is now something that is part of Crystal's "sweep" procedure?   


Randy,

That's not part of our normal procedure. Not sure what happened there. We have actually just changed the "backcountry registration" process to be entirely self check-in and out. There's a clipboard on our Snow Safety Board in the patrol locker room, and you can fill it out yourself. We use this in the event that a friend/loved one reports you missing. We don't expect everyone to check out, especially if it's after hours. But it is helpful.
 
For uphill travel within our ski area boundary, you still need to talk to the dispatcher. Hope that helps.
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Crystal Patrol
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #8 on: 12/11/17, 04:02 PM »

Crystal Patrol - I think it would be very helpful if you post a USGS topo map (1:24,000 scale with the line drawn on it) on your website in addition to the FatMap screen shot. Your description of Southback vs. Silver Basin is good, but it would be even better if it was accompanied by a topo. A lot of folks have a hard time placing local names and runs once they get in the terrain (especially in bad vis, or if they're new to the area) and I'm sure they would appreciate a real map plus the aerial shot. Thanks!


This is a great point. We are working on putting out a better map soon. Stay tuned!
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Crystal Patrol
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #9 on: 12/11/17, 04:05 PM »

Here's what I believe patrol is saying

This is precisely it. You just can't skin up where we do avalanche control. That's what we are trying to avoid. There are other areas well within our ski area boundary that have always been closed to uphill travel. It's because we do AC there. I realize that 5, 10, 20 years ago we allowed it. But with the uptick in uphill travel we have to take a more serious stand.
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Crystal Patrol
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #10 on: 12/11/17, 04:09 PM »

So no uphill travel within south Back? No more Throne/King/Threeway access? What a shame.

I hear you. We tried for several years to find a way to make this work. But to no avail. And yep, marketing shared a post that was taken in SE Trees. Big oops. We are working on getting everyone on board. It's an uphill battle (no pun intended).

This year it's been especially hard because Chair 6 and Southback haven't been open from the top much. Currently, you can hike up Powder Pass to top of Chair 6 and across to Southback. The key is that you have to enter through our gates and read our signs. It's a liability thing. Thanks for understanding.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #11 on: 12/11/17, 06:08 PM »

Crystal Patrol:  Thanks for the update on check-in/check-out/closing procedure -- looks like my experience was likely an opening day glitch. 

Anyone that want to know: The Crystal Ski Patrol's blog has a useful map of boundary between "Southback" and the rest of Silver Basin.



There is also this description:
Quote
Southback vs. Silver Basin
Southback sits within Silver Basin, but does not take up the entire basin. It is still okay to skin up into the section of Silver Basin that is not within our ski area boundary. Before getting to the “airstrip”–the long flat section at the base of Southback–turn left as you travel uphill (marked above with the red star), and skin along the climber’s left flank of the airstrip, heading towards the base of Chicken Head and Triple F. Joe’s Badass Shoulder and the climber’s left flank of Threeway are outside of our ski area boundary. It’s still okay to tour into these areas.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #12 on: 12/11/17, 06:36 PM »

Currently, you can hike up Powder Pass to top of Chair 6 and across to Southback. The key is that you have to enter through our gates and read our signs. It's a liability thing. Thanks for understanding.

So to confirm current policy -- one may skin up along the edges of "Arwines" (lower and upper) , along "Lucky Shot" to "Powder Pass" and then right along the eastern edge of "Kempers permanently closed area" to the summit of "Silver Queen" and then follow the normal lift assisted skier's route over to Southback?    If so -- can one start skinning before the lifts start spinning or does one need to wait until the area is open and control work on powder bowl is completed ?

What about skinning up "Queens Run" to base of "Chair 6" and then working up "Hamburger Bowl" to access "Southback Gate #1"  (Names from the FATMAP application)

Thanks in advance.
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Crystal Patrol
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #13 on: 12/12/17, 07:18 AM »

So to confirm current policy -- one may skin up along the edges of "Arwines" (lower and upper) , along "Lucky Shot" to "Powder Pass" and then right along the eastern edge of "Kempers permanently closed area" to the summit of "Silver Queen" and then follow the normal lift assisted skier's route over to Southback?    If so -- can one start skinning before the lifts start spinning or does one need to wait until the area is open and control work on powder bowl is completed ?

What about skinning up "Queens Run" to base of "Chair 6" and then working up "Hamburger Bowl" to access "Southback Gate #1"  (Names from the FATMAP application)

Thanks in advance.

The route up Little Shot to Powder Pass is not always open. This is why you must check in with patrol to see the approved route of the day. On weekends and busy days, we usually don't let people travel uphill due to crowding. Right now Lucky Shot is the only way off the upper mountain, and so it's closed to uphill travel. Hiking up to Campbell Basin is not a route we ever approve. It's simply too crowded on those runs. We also want people to hike up from Powder Pass right now so that they read the signs. This is how we manage all of our avalanche prone terrain. You have to go through a gate and read the signs. This configuration should only last a little while longer. To access Southback without being a customer of Crystal, you'd need to head over to Morse Creek, then to Crystal Lakes and drop into Southback from the top. On certain non-busy days in the spring, when the avalanche threat below Powder Bowl is non-existent, we will allow uphill travel up Little Shot. But it isn't the norm.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #14 on: 12/12/17, 07:36 AM »

The route up Little Shot to Powder Pass is not always open. This is why you must check in with patrol to see the approved route of the day. On weekends and busy days, we usually don't let people travel uphill due to crowding. Right now Lucky Shot is the only way off the upper mountain, and so it's closed to uphill travel. Hiking up to Campbell Basin is not a route we ever approve. It's simply too crowded on those runs. We also want people to hike up from Powder Pass right now so that they read the signs. This is how we manage all of our avalanche prone terrain. You have to go through a gate and read the signs. This configuration should only last a little while longer. To access Southback without being a customer of Crystal, you'd need to head over to Morse Creek, then to Crystal Lakes and drop into Southback from the top. On certain non-busy days in the spring, when the avalanche threat below Powder Bowl is non-existent, we will allow uphill travel up Little Shot. But it isn't the norm.

Reading this, it sounds like the option to tour up through the resort to powder pass for practical purposes doesn't exist on weekend days during the winter.
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Doug Hutchinson
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #15 on: 12/15/17, 11:50 AM »

Thank you Crystal Patrol for striving hard to strike a good balance between skier safety and access. One of the reasons I switched to Crystal from another resort is because the Crystal Patrol is obviously focused on providing a great customer experience. Keep up the good work.
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flowing alpy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #16 on: 12/17/17, 07:33 AM »

indeed, more folks should follow this example and make the southern resort their go to destination as well. good on you Doug for making this positive decision to switch to crystal and their great customer service model, they have no time for mediocracy.
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Crystal Patrol
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #17 on: 12/24/17, 02:30 PM »

Thanks Doug. Appreciate it.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #18 on: 12/27/17, 03:41 PM »

Quote"We’ve noticed a skin track in the Exit Chute and some posts on social media of skiers in this area. If this continues we will have to restrict all uphill travel within our ski area boundary at all times. Don’t be the guy/gal that ruins it for everybody. Just to clarify: it’s okay to travel into the part of Silver Basin that’s not in our ski area boundary, but not okay to skin/hike into Southback, which extends from the top of the Throne to the Three Way Exit Chute."

So you're willing to punish everyone for the mistakes of One person or group.

What grounds would you use to justify closing public land to uphill travel?

If it's safe now to skin up according to your current rules, why would it be suddenly unsafe to skin up the hill according to your rules just because one group or person chose to ignore or didn't understand the rules?

Does crystal punish all its paying customers when one of its paying customers ignores the ski area policy?

I really think these types of threats and unfair policies are what causes people to assert  their rights to access public land.

I can hear the announcement now over the lift PA speakers.

" attention attention all Crystal Mountain skiers and snowboarders- a Scottish fellow just skied a closed run- we will be closed for the rest of the season. We warned you this would happen"


« Last Edit: 12/27/17, 05:33 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
BCSchonwald
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #19 on: 12/27/17, 08:06 PM »

Freeski, again trolling does not further the discussion. This is WA State Law, not some arbitrary punishment. If the ski area determines a boundary then it is up to us, the bc community to respect this or lose the 'privilege' of touring uphill through a ski area. The idea you wish to perpetuate that the public lands the ski area is on is open to all goes against the actual law that is enforced by the the sheriff and state troopers. Do you argue with a trooper who pull you over for speeding that it is your right to speed because the highways are public land and we can drive however we want?

When one member of this community disrespects a ski area's request, the ski area cannot perform an inquest, just cut off access so the buffer becomes wider to keep poachers away.

This discussion really needs to focus on how we can develop a local culture of accountability, then Crystal, Alpental, Baker and Stevens can work with us as a trusted partner.
WA State Law
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.45.070
'Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure
.'
[ 2011 c 276 § 1.]
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #20 on: 12/27/17, 10:13 PM »

Freeski, again trolling does not further the discussion. This is WA State Law, not some arbitrary punishment. If the ski area determines a boundary then it is up to us, the bc community to respect this or lose the 'privilege' of touring uphill through a ski area. The idea you wish to perpetuate that the public lands the ski area is on is open to all goes against the actual law that is enforced by the the sheriff and state troopers. Do you argue with a trooper who pull you over for speeding that it is your right to speed because the highways are public land and we can drive however we want?

When one member of this community disrespects a ski area's request, the ski area cannot perform an inquest, just cut off access so the buffer becomes wider to keep poachers away.

This discussion really needs to focus on how we can develop a local culture of accountability, then Crystal, Alpental, Baker and Stevens can work with us as a trusted partner.
WA State Law
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.45.070
'Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure
.'
[ 2011 c 276 § 1.]
I'm asking legitimate questions. Quit trying to attack me personally by calling me a troll. That just reflects poorly on you.

When a ski area has people skiing down a hill, that area is obviously open to the public. So explain to me oh great one how that Washington state law applies.

Someone who is skinning uphill on a ski run is no more dangerous then then a paying customer who stops in the middle of a ski run. Happens all the time. The proof is that skinning uphill is allowed now on many runs.

The analogy would be if the ski patrol closed a ski run to everyone because someone stopped in the middle of it.

What the ski patrol is proposing is to exclude that segment of the public who are not willing to pay the exorbitant fees that a ski area charges to access public land.

They seem to be looking for any excuse to exclude the  non paying public from public land and they're trying to use safety as an excuse. We all know it's about money and powder as a commodity.

Sure let's punish everybody who skins up a ski hill because someone doesn't know the rules or intentionally ignores them.

If you want accountability Mr. Schonwald, let's start with the guide Outfitter Services shall we. Explain to me why you don't have a Public Safety responsibility to disclose safety records to the public ie your potential customer base?

 Don't you think potential clients have a right to understand the actual risks that they are about to incur when they hire a guide.

 The fact is many guide Outfitters go out of their way to hide their near-miss accidents and even fatalities because those incidents are quote 'bad for business'.

That is an actual quote from a guide who asked me not to disclose a near-miss accident that we had just finished discussing.

Okay Crystal Patrol I'm waiting for your response to my legitimate logical questions.

Please don't confuse my query as disrespect. I think the patrol does good work and are highly underpaid for the jobs that they perform especially when they're handling explosives.

 And I really think you should know that when you come up with those types of lame excuses, like 'we're going to close the whole area to uphill traffic because of the actions of one individual', you lose credibility for your legitimate safety concerns, such as skiers skinnng up during Avalanche control work.

Which by the way, the Forest Service considers to be a perfectly acceptable practice for helicopter ski operations, and even guides out with clients. they can cut all the Avalanches they want above us and the forest service doesn't give a damn.

Yes I would like some accountability, Mr. Schonwald.

« Last Edit: 12/27/17, 11:01 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #21 on: 12/28/17, 09:08 PM »


Does crystal punish all its paying customers when one of its paying customers ignores the ski area policy


Yeah -- I think so -- look at the trailmap,  there are a number of "permanently closed" areas that are that way because of fatalities.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #22 on: 12/29/17, 10:36 AM »

Yeah -- I think so -- look at the trailmap,  there are a number of "permanently closed" areas that are that way because of fatalities.
Could you elaborate on your statement with some actual facts?

 If what you were saying is true, sounds like the patrol is closing areas that are extremely hazardous, however they're obviously still leaving areas open that are relatively safe.

I have no problem with actual safety concerns being implemented and hazardous areas closed.

 As I said before, when the public perceives that lame safety excuses are being offered by authority figures designed to deny Public Access, which is contrary to the special use permits issued for that public land, those policies will not be accepted and rightfully resisted.

When authority figures are perceived as being unreasonable, unfortunately some folks will demonstrate complete disregard to Authority and will go out of their way to ignore legitimate safety concerns.

 I think the guide Outfitters do this when they refuse to publicly discuss why they choose to hide actual risk by not disclosing their near miss and even fatal accidents.

Instead of furthering the safety conversation with logical debate, they attack personally time and time again. I find that behavior despicable.

If a ski run is closed to uphill traffic because of extreme crowding on that run, maybe the problem isn't the uphill skier. Maybe the ski area is just selling too many tickets and overcrowding is occurring that is leading to safety concerns.

But we all know that in the corporate business world , when it comes to gathering money, public safety is often compromised.

A good example of greed taking precedence over safety is using Ski Patrol folks to toss bombs instead of spending the money for ava-lanchers. Every time an explosive charge goes off near the human body, the concussion causes the brain to rattle just a bit. long-term exposure leads to brain damage.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/shock-waves-may-create-dangerous-bubbles-brain-180957396/

 Are the patrolman being fairly compensated for the risks that they incur?  or are they just cannon fodder for the corporate world?

But hey let's put up a smokescreen and pretend uphill traffic is a major safety concern. It's obviously not when done according to best safety practices.

« Last Edit: 12/29/17, 11:01 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Good2Go
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #23 on: 12/29/17, 11:40 AM »

Ski area land is leased for a private purpose.  They are given broad discretion to operate their business.  They don't need much reason to bar you.  Look at the snowboarder suits against Alta as an example.  You don't have a right to skin in a ski area.

As for guides, etc.  Lots of people die in ski areas.  Do you see them advertising that fact?  Guides make you sign a liability waiver.  It's a contract.  It's full of examples of how you may be hurt or killed.  The law looks to that document as the critical notice that shifts responsibility from the provider to the purchaser.  There is no conspiracy here, you're just clueless how these things work in the real world.
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KLW
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #24 on: 12/29/17, 03:13 PM »

A liability waver is not a legal get out of jail free card. If negligence can be proven it's not worth the paper it's written on. Welcome to the "real world" Wink
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Good2Go
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #25 on: 12/29/17, 04:44 PM »

A liability waver is not a legal get out of jail free card. If negligence can be proven it's not worth the paper it's written on. Welcome to the "real world" Wink


Ha!  You seem so sure of yourself when you're wrong.  Does that usually work for you?  Waivers trump negligence.  It's recklessness that can overcome a waiver.  And that's very hard to prove nowadays. The case law on this topic is mature and the waivers have evolved accordingly.  Real world stuff.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #26 on: 12/29/17, 05:09 PM »

Ski area land is leased for a private purpose.  They are given broad discretion to operate their business.  They don't need much reason to bar you.  Look at the snowboarder suits against Alta as an example.  You don't have a right to skin in a ski area.

 
and that lease agreement, which is FS commercial  special use permit, specifies the following:


"F.  Area Access. Except for any restrictions as the holder and the authorized officer may agree to be necessary to protect the installation of and operation of authorized structures and developments, the lands and waters covered by this permit shall remain open to the public for all lawful purposes.  To facilitate public use of this area, all existing roads or roads as may be constructed by the holder, shall remain open to the public, except for roads as may be closed by joint agreement of the holder and the authorized officer"

It seems as though the ski areas are trying to use a Washington state law, concerning trail closures to all members of the public due to safety, to nullify the public access terms of their  special use permit specifically  directed towards members of the public who choose to skin up, while keeping Public Access open for paying customers.

 In other words they are trying to use that Washington state law to restrict Public Access only to paying customers. That obviously is not the intent of that Washington State law and not consistent with the terms of their Federal special use permits.

 Try to keep up, good2go.
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #27 on: 12/29/17, 05:38 PM »

Ha!  This is kinda fun, like stealing candy from a baby.  Problem is your analysis is flawed.  These type of leases have been extensively interpreted by courts already, e.g., the snowboarders who sued Alta.  And those cases establish my original point, the operator has broad discretion to determine what works best for their business, including who can access the leased property.  The reasons they can offer for banning touring will all pass muster IMO (e.g., preservation of snow for paying customers (i.e., the resource that the lease is based upon), skinners don't obey rules (true!), skinners add liability risk to the operation with no commensurate receipt of value, etc.).  You seem to think there is some constitutional right to access all public land. That's far from the case.  But, by all means I encourage you to start suing ASAP.  Talk is cheap.  Prove me wrong.
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KLW
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #28 on: 12/29/17, 06:07 PM »

Ha!  You seem so sure of yourself when you're wrong.  Does that usually work for you?  Waivers trump negligence.  It's recklessness that can overcome a waiver.  And that's very hard to prove nowadays. The case law on this topic is mature and the waivers have evolved accordingly.  Real world stuff.

I didn't realize that we were in a court room and I was required to use the exact legal language. My apologies. Recklessness or perhaps "gross negligence" is the word(s)  I should have used? Thank you for parsing my language and affirming my point that liability waivers do not release one from all liability.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #29 on: 12/29/17, 07:54 PM »

Could you elaborate on your statement with some actual facts?

 If what you were saying is true, sounds like the patrol is closing areas that are extremely hazardous, however they're obviously still leaving areas open that are relatively safe.

I have no problem with actual safety concerns being implemented and hazardous areas closed.

....

I believe this incident http://media.nwac.us.s3.amazonaws.com/media/filer_public/18/6a/186a5299-1364-4504-8de7-551f62691e26/cmt_kempers_accdnt-02-03-01.pdf

Is part of the reason that the Kempers area is permanently closed.

I recall some fatalities in the "Rockface" area in the pre-internet age -- not easy to find online citations for those.
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #30 on: 12/29/17, 10:55 PM »

Ha!  This is kinda fun, like stealing candy from a baby.  Problem is your analysis is flawed.  These type of leases have been extensively interpreted by courts already, e.g., the snowboarders who sued Alta.  And those cases establish my original point, the operator has broad discretion to determine what works best for their business, including who can access the leased property.  The reasons they can offer for banning touring will all pass muster IMO (e.g., preservation of snow for paying customers (i.e., the resource that the lease is based upon), skinners don't obey rules (true!), skinners add liability risk to the operation with no commensurate receipt of value, etc.).  You seem to think there is some constitutional right to access all public land. That's far from the case.  But, by all means I encourage you to start suing ASAP.  Talk is cheap.  Prove me wrong.

 what part of section F of the special use permit don't you understand?

 "F. Area Access. Except for any restrictions as the holder and the authorized officer may agree to be necessary to protect the installation of and operation of authorized structures and developments, the lands and waters covered by this permit shall remain open to the public for all lawful purposes.  To facilitate public use of this area, all existing roads or roads as may be constructed by the holder, shall remain open to the public, except for roads as may be closed by joint agreement of the holder and the authorized officer"

Crystal Mountain has a lease agreement between Crystal Mountain and the public.

Ultimately it may be up to a judge to decide.



« Last Edit: 12/29/17, 11:05 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #31 on: 12/30/17, 11:23 AM »

I agree with Good2Go, this is like dog chasing its tail;
WA State Law protects the right of ski area closures, which answers the question in the USFS Permit.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.45.070
'Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure.'
[ 2011 c 276 § 1.]

As far as I know there is no case law denying public access when ski areas have closures going against the ski areas because the law and the lease permit support their decisions.

Permanent closures at Crystal such as 'the Waterfall' have two fatalities and Rock Face is an unstable zone above the only easy run down Kelly's Gap Road, so there is history of denying public access for safety.

I would be interested to see exactly where in the Constitution, its Amendments, the Federalist Papers, and/or any Supreme Court decisions that state the public has unobstructed access to public lands that have been to private entities providing public recreation services.

As for Commercial Use, every time a client/customer signs up for a trip they have a right to ask about our safety record and when they sign a waiver they are informed of the risks. If you read all 13 listed Hazards and Risks then hopefully you are informed and in a court these need to proved against negligence of the company and its employees. Most people may not read the entire list, which includes(#13) Fatigue, Lack of Coordination and ability to follow instructions, which seems to be the case here.

See Content of Waiver below:

Please read and be certain you understand the implications of signing. Express assumption of Risk Associated with Mountaineering, Climbing, and Related Activities. I, do hereby affirm and acknowledge that I have been fully informed of the inherent hazards and risks associated with Mountaineering, Rock Climbing, Ski Touring and Indoor Climbing activities, transportation of equipment related to the activities, and traveling to and from activities sites of which I am about to engage in. Inherent hazards and risks include but are not limited to: 1. Risk of injury from the activity and equipment utilized in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing is significant including the potential for permanent disability and death. 2. Possible equipment failure and/or malfunction of my own or others’ equipment. 3. My own negligence and/or the negligence of others, including employees, agents, independent contractors or representatives of ________ , including but not limited to operator error. 4. Injury to hands, fingers, feet, and toes, including but not limited to inflammation and/or strain of muscles ligaments and/or tendons, nerve damage or compression, and broken bones. 5. Injury from falling may occur from exposure to high altitude, which may affect judgment and coordination, or from not paying close attention to your climbing or others climbing with or near you. 6. Broken bones, severe injuries to the head, neck, and back which may result in severe physical impairment or even death. 7. Discharge of weapons in or near the area of activity. 8. Cold weather and heat related injuries and illness including but not limited to frostnip, frost bite, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, sunburn, hypothermia, and dehydration. 9. Exposure to outdoor elements, including but not limited to avalanche, rock fall, inclement weather, thunder and lightning, severe and or varied wind, temperature or weather conditions. 10. Attack by or encounter with insects, reptiles, and/or animals. 11. Accidents or illness occurring in remote places where there are no available medical facilities. 12. Fatigue chill, and/or dizziness, which may diminish my/our reaction time and increase the risk of accident. 13. My sense of balance, physical coordination, and ability to follow instructions. *I understand the description of these risks is not complete and that unknown or unanticipated risks may result in injury, illness, or death. Release of Liability, Waiver of Claims and Indemnity Agreement In consideration for being permitted to participate in any way in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing and related activities, I hereby agree, acknowledge and appreciate that: I HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, the following named persons or entities, herein referred to as release. ______ To release the releasees, their officers, directors, employees, representatives, agents, and volunteers, and vessels from liability and responsibility whatsoever and for any claims or causes of action that I, my estate, heirs, survivors, executors, or assigns may have for personal injury, property damage, or wrongful death arising from the above activities whether caused by activity or passive negligence of the releasees or otherwise. By executing the document, I agree to hold the releasees harmless and indemnify them in conjunction with any injury, disability, death, or loss or damage to person or property that may occur as a result of engaging in the above activities. By entering into this Agreement, I am not relying on any oral or written representation or statement made by the releasees, other than what is set forth in this Agreement. This release shall be binding to the fullest extent permitted by law. If any provisions of the release is found to be unenforceable, the remaining terms shall be enforced.
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snoqpass
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #32 on: 12/30/17, 12:59 PM »

If a ski run is closed to uphill traffic because of extreme crowding on that run, maybe the problem isn't the uphill skier. Maybe the ski area is just selling too many tickets and overcrowding is occurring that is leading to safety concerns.



A good example of greed taking precedence over safety is using Ski Patrol folks to toss bombs instead of spending the money for ava-lanchers. Every time an explosive charge goes off near the human body, the concussion causes the brain to rattle just a bit. long-term exposure leads to brain damage.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/shock-waves-may-create-dangerous-bubbles-brain-180957396/

 Are the patrolman being fairly compensated for the risks that they incur?  or are they just cannon fodder for the corporate world?




The first statement defies logic, the second shows you don’t have a very good understanding of avalanche control and developed ski areas
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #33 on: 12/30/17, 01:43 PM »

I agree with Good2Go, this is like dog chasing its tail;
WA State Law protects the right of ski area closures, which answers the question in the USFS Permit.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.45.070
'Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure.'
[ 2011 c 276 § 1.]

As far as I know there is no case law denying public access when ski areas have closures going against the ski areas because the law and the lease permit support their decisions.

Permanent closures at Crystal such as 'the Waterfall' have two fatalities and Rock Face is an unstable zone above the only easy run down Kelly's Gap Road, so there is history of denying public access for safety.

I would be interested to see exactly where in the Constitution, its Amendments, the Federalist Papers, and/or any Supreme Court decisions that state the public has unobstructed access to public lands that have been to private entities providing public recreation services.

As for Commercial Use, every time a client/customer signs up for a trip they have a right to ask about our safety record and when they sign a waiver they are informed of the risks. If you read all 13 listed Hazards and Risks then hopefully you are informed and in a court these need to proved against negligence of the company and its employees. Most people may not read the entire list, which includes(#13) Fatigue, Lack of Coordination and ability to follow instructions, which seems to be the case here.

See Content of Waiver below:

Please read and be certain you understand the implications of signing. Express assumption of Risk Associated with Mountaineering, Climbing, and Related Activities. I, do hereby affirm and acknowledge that I have been fully informed of the inherent hazards and risks associated with Mountaineering, Rock Climbing, Ski Touring and Indoor Climbing activities, transportation of equipment related to the activities, and traveling to and from activities sites of which I am about to engage in. Inherent hazards and risks include but are not limited to: 1. Risk of injury from the activity and equipment utilized in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing is significant including the potential for permanent disability and death. 2. Possible equipment failure and/or malfunction of my own or others’ equipment. 3. My own negligence and/or the negligence of others, including employees, agents, independent contractors or representatives of ________ , including but not limited to operator error. 4. Injury to hands, fingers, feet, and toes, including but not limited to inflammation and/or strain of muscles ligaments and/or tendons, nerve damage or compression, and broken bones. 5. Injury from falling may occur from exposure to high altitude, which may affect judgment and coordination, or from not paying close attention to your climbing or others climbing with or near you. 6. Broken bones, severe injuries to the head, neck, and back which may result in severe physical impairment or even death. 7. Discharge of weapons in or near the area of activity. 8. Cold weather and heat related injuries and illness including but not limited to frostnip, frost bite, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, sunburn, hypothermia, and dehydration. 9. Exposure to outdoor elements, including but not limited to avalanche, rock fall, inclement weather, thunder and lightning, severe and or varied wind, temperature or weather conditions. 10. Attack by or encounter with insects, reptiles, and/or animals. 11. Accidents or illness occurring in remote places where there are no available medical facilities. 12. Fatigue chill, and/or dizziness, which may diminish my/our reaction time and increase the risk of accident. 13. My sense of balance, physical coordination, and ability to follow instructions. *I understand the description of these risks is not complete and that unknown or unanticipated risks may result in injury, illness, or death. Release of Liability, Waiver of Claims and Indemnity Agreement In consideration for being permitted to participate in any way in Mountaineering, Rock Climbing and Indoor Climbing and related activities, I hereby agree, acknowledge and appreciate that: I HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE, the following named persons or entities, herein referred to as release. ______ To release the releasees, their officers, directors, employees, representatives, agents, and volunteers, and vessels from liability and responsibility whatsoever and for any claims or causes of action that I, my estate, heirs, survivors, executors, or assigns may have for personal injury, property damage, or wrongful death arising from the above activities whether caused by activity or passive negligence of the releasees or otherwise. By executing the document, I agree to hold the releasees harmless and indemnify them in conjunction with any injury, disability, death, or loss or damage to person or property that may occur as a result of engaging in the above activities. By entering into this Agreement, I am not relying on any oral or written representation or statement made by the releasees, other than what is set forth in this Agreement. This release shall be binding to the fullest extent permitted by law. If any provisions of the release is found to be unenforceable, the remaining terms shall be enforced.

why are you guys so afraid to post your near-miss accidents on your website so a potential client can review the safety record of the guide Outfitter service they are considering hiring for a trip?

Instead you entertain them in your office, slap a waiver in front of them while they're all warm and cozy, Here sign this or go home.

Let your potential clients start considering risk analysis associated with Mountain Travel from the safety of their home and discussion with friends and family.

When you guys purposely hide risk (actual incidents not generalized risks)fron the General Public you create an illusion concerning the actual risk associated with hiring a guide.

Below is a Highway 20 hairpin incident that made it to the nwac observation page but a quick review did not reveal that it showed up in the annual Avalanche incident reports. But I'll check again

 Two seasons ago, my friend didn't sign a liability waiver when he had an avalanche path purposely ski cut off above him by Guide Service company owner. The resulting Avalanche could have had fatal consequences.

 the path had a clear line of sight, it is above our locals well known safe route to the Northeast bowls in that area.our route goes up through old growth trees and only crosses below that path for a matter of minutes. That path rarely releases naturally.

 fresh D3 natural release Avalanches where noted that day on similar aspects.

The guide chose the regular guide route through the head of the hairpin and across a prolific Avalanche path that has seen near Miss accidents including a natural Avalanche hitting a guide Outfitter owner there in 2008.

Another guide Outfitter owner at the head of the hair pin had a client hit from above from by an  accidental skier trigger Avalanche while  that skier was skinning up above and out of line of sight from the descending guide client group. The guide client group actually descended underneath the skinning local skiers going up for their second lap. Also 2008.

 the guide that triggered the Avalanche above my friend entered into the bowl that my friend was in from a different Bowl from a common fall line Ridge feature.

There is a strong case here for negligent Behavior and yet no accountability and no action was taken by the forest service.

Are you saying because the guide Outfitter has a special use permit to operate in that area he has the right to exclude the public from that area because there is a risk to the general public because of possible Avalanche control work being performed?

In europe a similar case was prosecuted.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20171213/three-skiers-convicted-after-causing-avalanche-that-injured-two-others

I want the same thing that you want,  safe use of public land for all, including skinning access at ski areas.

Crystal Mountain is not going to get there by  threatening to close Public Access to uphill traffic because of the actions of a few Rogue or uninformed individuals.

Such an action would deserve a court challenge.

 Neither of us are sitting judges so I doubt our opinion really matters much now does it, except to shine light on multiple legitimate safety concerns.

In other words people will be thinking now more about this issue because now they have different points of view to consider.

 Each and everyone of us including the ski areas has seen dramatic changes with the social and safety issues associated with increasing crowds. We need to learn to adapt our attitudes.

A threat, do this or else suffer our punishment, by the Crystal Mountain Patrol is a poor attitude and only adds fuel to the fire.

Maybe Crystal Mountain needs to take a less threatening posture when seeking a solution to a legitimate safety concern.

« Last Edit: 12/30/17, 02:29 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #34 on: 12/30/17, 08:53 PM »

The first statement defies logic, the second shows you don’t have a very good understanding of avalanche control and developed ski areas
maybe you should enlighten me as I'm sure you know more about Bubble brain then I do. Or is it a denial thing like the NFL?

 I don't know much, but I do know that I could feel the concussive force from Avalanche control work from the Stevens Pass parking lot.

 how much are patrolman paid to risk their lives such as the one in Randy's example who got caught in an avalanche?

Or this example:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ski-patroller-killed-avalanche-control-20170124-story,amp.html

"Ski patroller dies when explosive charge detonates during avalanche control at Squaw Valley resort"
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #35 on: 12/31/17, 09:34 AM »

Stevens Pass was probably using the Mother Of all Avalanche Bombs that morning
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #36 on: 01/01/18, 09:47 AM »

maybe you should enlighten me as I'm sure you know more about Bubble brain then I do. Or is it a denial thing like the NFL?
The article you linked about bubble brain clearly states it’s just a hypothesis based on test of cells grown from rats
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Jim Oker
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #37 on: 01/02/18, 12:01 PM »

Umm, people spend much more time as obstacles to downhill skiers when skinning uphill than when resting on  runs. And often they spend time in spots where few skiers would stop unless they'd fallen yard-sale style. So there's that difference, for starters...

And those skiers who have passes have agreed to abide by ski area rules or else lose the pass and the right to  be in the  lease area. So  there's that difference between the lift-served skiers and the free-range folks. Calling the two the same is a false equivalence with respect to the uphill travel rules.

Hitting those two fallacies, I lost interest in the apparent diatribe. Fortunately there are plenty of places, even within great sight lines of Crystal, to ski tour well  outside of the ski area boundaries.
« Last Edit: 01/02/18, 01:41 PM by Jim Oker » Logged
cornRIDE
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #38 on: 01/03/18, 09:30 AM »

go ski.

you shouldn't have to use your brain this much to do it.

concussions from avy control? waiver analysis? uphill within crystal sidecountry while operating on a weekend? you have to be kidding me.

bunch of girly-men bitching on the internet from their condo or cubicle about front country/legal drama. your skis don't care- they just want to go ski. be more like your skis.
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CBAlliance
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #39 on: 01/03/18, 01:43 PM »

Hi All,

We have been trying to work with Crystal to build some better map products, which you can view here below. We have also been talking to the resort to try and work out some solutions for the backcountry community, with the goal of the resort seeing the importance of skinning folk to their community overall and the value that uphill travelers bring to the resort. While there many logistical hurdles, we are still pushing for reasonable access to the Crystal Lakes basin, as we understand the value of that terrain for folks.

That said, much of the patrol at Crystal are avid backcountry skiers and Crystal wants to welcome these folks as much as possible. They have put forth a lot of good-faith efforts to keep accommodating our needs in the face of some pretty blatant and stupid behavior (people skinning up under control work, people skinning up to ride the upper lifts for free... the list goes on). We appreciate it and continue to reap the benefits of relatively reasonable access from the end of the boulevard.

To echo some of the above sentiments: There is a vast amount of terrain near Crystal with great skiing that you can skin to without interacting with the resort scene beyond the parking lot. Arguing about the theoretical legal rights you have to go get a bomb tossed on your head is irrelevant and antithetical to what everyone wants to go do, which is go have a nice time skiing in a quiet place away from a lift line. If you do want to head up towards Pickhandle or 3-way peak, go check in with patrol and make sure you know where you can and can't go. If you just want to get some exercise or test out new gear, the mine-to-market road up Gold hills is always open. Whatever you do, please be cognizant that you represent a community. Crystal as a community may be a commercial entity, but it is made up of people who recognize the value of backcountry skiing and are doing what they can to reach out to us. Let's take ownership of our part of that interaction.

Click on the map to go to the functional version on google maps- forum software won't let me embed the actual map.

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cascadebackcountryalliance.org
Good2Go
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #40 on: 01/03/18, 11:41 PM »

go ski.

you shouldn't have to use your brain this much to do it.

concussions from avy control? waiver analysis? uphill within crystal sidecountry while operating on a weekend? you have to be kidding me.

bunch of girly-men bitching on the internet from their condo or cubicle about front country/legal drama. your skis don't care- they just want to go ski. be more like your skis.

How can we tell if our skis are girly or manly?  Can you suggest a brand?
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #41 on: 01/04/18, 01:03 PM »

Umm, people spend much more time as obstacles to downhill skiers when skinning uphill than when resting on  runs. And often they spend time in spots where few skiers would stop unless they'd fallen yard-sale style. So there's that difference, for starters...

And those skiers who have passes have agreed to abide by ski area rules or else lose the pass and the right to  be in the  lease area. So  there's that difference between the lift-served skiers and the free-range folks. Calling the two the same is a false equivalence with respect to the uphill travel rules.

Hitting those two fallacies, I lost interest in the apparent diatribe. Fortunately there are plenty of places, even within great sight lines of Crystal, to ski tour well  outside of the ski area boundaries.
uphill skier traffic is easily avoidable and it is the descending skiers responsibility to avoid all obstacles below.

That would include trees, rocks, stream beds, lift towers, lift shacks, ropes, fences, lift lines, and stationary Ski School classes,all of which spend much more time as obstacles to descending skiers at a given location then an uphill skier.

In addition while each descending skier may just rest in one location and move on quickly, multiply that times the number of skiers at a ski area who actually do that, and you have hundreds of obstacles that need to be considered and avoided.


Just because you state that it's a fallacy does not make it so, that is just your opinion.

 Generally a debate fallacy is defined as leveling personal attacks, (which seems to be an acceptable policy here at turns all year),red herring arguments, arguing against strawmen Etc.

But since you believe that uphill skier traffic is such a safety hazard, I'm sure you have data that details collisions between downhill skiers and uphill skier traffic to back up your opinion. 

That number could be correlated with all other skier collisions to determine what the actual risk and safety hazards are.

 Like I said maybe the ski areas are just selling too many tickets which is creating overcrowding hazards to all concerned.

Want a liability waiver for uphill skiers, no problem, make that a sign in policy and charge a dollar.

 Not everyone can afford to buy a ticket at a ski area, and ski areas are an excellent place to learn and condition for the rigors of the backcountry.

In addition the backcountry is not always a safe place to be, so the PUBLIC LAND, which the ski area occupies, is a good alternative for those days.

Didn't we go through a similar to debate when ticket holding area skiers wanted to access the side country? Ie access to PUBLIC LAND.

 Oh and then there's the fact of section F. of the special use permit. Personally I believe this is an issue of law that can only be decided in a court of law. That is our system, like it or not.

Look Jim I get it.   I see who the turns all year ad supporters are.

 If Turns all year  wants to be a true representation of backcountry skiers, then there's going to be different points of view and expect push back against commercial expansion, and the ideal of commercialism.

 Or maybe just change the name to 'commercials all year'.

For many of us the backcountry is not about commercial ideals. And look now, we even an organization set up by commercial interest pretending to represent the interest of backcountry Skiers. Sad.

For many of us recreating in nature has more to do with the human spirit and honoring this great, wonderous, beautiful planet that thrives with all forms of LIFE.

Many of us would like to keep it that way..
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 01:14 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #42 on: 01/04/18, 02:38 PM »

FWIW:

Mission ridge's uphill policy excludes uphill travel completely within the permit boundary from 7:00AM to 5:00PM on dats when the lifts will spin.   

Snoqualmie (non-Alpental)  areas have a fairly liberal uphill policy -- but then they should,  in the '80s Kittitas county tried to assess  an "admissions tax" on lift ticket sales.  Ski Lifts Inc successfully contested the tax by claiming it was a "lift ticket" only and a lift ticket was not required for admission to the permit area. 

Alpental is in King County bans skinning in the permit area,  they use bombs and ski cuts to intentionally kick off avalanches.  The kind of stuff Crystal does in Southback..
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 02:43 PM by Randy » Logged
haggis
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #43 on: 01/04/18, 03:05 PM »

RE Alpental uphill policy, not strictly true randy.  Per the summits website which has been posted here several times:

Rules of Uphill Travel: Specific to Alpental

At Alpental during the operating season uphill use is allowed ONLY WHEN THE AREA IS OPEN TO CUSTOMERS. When Alpental is closed to customers, it is closed to uphill travelers. This means that if no Alpental chair lift is open to guests, you may not travel uphill; including periods when lifts are delayed or on standby, Mondays, at night or any other period of closure during the operating season.
•Before heading uphill, you must first make contact with patrol staff to determine whether a route can be approved for that day and time.
•This policy applies to all terrain, including the Back Bowls area.
•When traveling to areas beyond the boundary such as Chair Peak or Snow Lake, always stay climbers right and off of any path or resort return trail. Uphill travel is not allowed for any terrain on the South side of the Alpental Valley until you reach Source Lake.
•From Source Lake the distinct drainage known as Great Scott trends south and up to the Tooth and Pineapple Pass. These areas are outside the resort boundary and open to ski touring and other forest users, but please do not travel east into the Alpental ski area permitted terrain.


FWIW:

Mission ridge's uphill policy excludes uphill travel completely within the permit boundary from 7:00AM to 5:00PM on dats when the lifts will spin.   

Snoqualmie (non-Alpental)  areas have a fairly liberal uphill policy -- but then they should,  in the '80s Kittitas county tried to assess  an "admissions tax" on lift ticket sales.  Ski Lifts Inc successfully contested the tax by claiming it was a "lift ticket" only and a lift ticket was not required for admission to the permit area. 

Alpental is in King County bans skinning in the permit area,  they use bombs and ski cuts to intentionally kick off avalanches.  The kind of stuff Crystal does in Southback..
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #44 on: 01/04/18, 04:18 PM »

Thanks for the clarification.

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Lowell_Skoog
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #45 on: 01/04/18, 05:37 PM »

Umm, people spend much more time as obstacles to downhill skiers when skinning uphill than when resting on runs. And often they spend time in spots where few skiers would stop unless they'd fallen yard-sale style.

I agree with these statements in cases where the uphill skier isn't using good route judgement. Totally true.

I think uphill skiers have the responsibility to travel in places where they are either out of the way of downhill skiers or easily visible from a distance. This is generally not hard to do if the uphill skier uses reasonable judgement.

There are some places (e.g. beneath knolls and through chokes) where uphill skiing is never a good idea. In these cases uphill skiers should either get off the run (into the woods) or choose a different path altogether. This is just common sense and good citizenship.

Look Jim I get it.   I see who the turns all year ad supporters are.

If Turns all year wants to be a true representation of backcountry skiers, then there's going to be different points of view and expect push back against commercial expansion, and the ideal of commercialism.

Or maybe just change the name to 'commercials all year'.

Honestly, this is hilarious. You're smearing TAY for being too commercial? It's the least commercial site I visit on any regular basis. Your axe must be getting pretty small with all the grinding you've done on it.
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 06:15 PM by Lowell_Skoog » Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #46 on: 01/04/18, 06:14 PM »

I agree with these statements in cases where the uphill skier isn't using good route judgement. Totally true.

I think uphill skiers have the responsibility to travel in places where they are either out of the way of downhill skiers or easily visible from a distance. This is generally not hard to do if the uphill skier uses reasonable judgement.

There are some places (e.g. beneath knolls and through chokes) where uphill skiing is never a good idea. In these cases uphill skiers should either get off the run (into the woods) or choose a different path altogether. This is just common sense and good citizenship.

Honestly, this is hilarious. You're smearing TAY for being too commercial? It's the least commercial site I visit on any regular basis. Your axe must be getting pretty small with all the grinding you've done on it.


You can offer your opinion without attacking me personally because I have a opinion  contrary to yours.

The least commercial site that I visit doesn't have advertising. It is supported by the community of members and the altruistic offerings of the owner.

 So yeah the facts indicate that this is a commercially supported site. Is a fact a smear or is a fact a fact?

 Maybe you're enamored with the site because you believe it's a true representation of who Backcountry skiers are.

 Most don't Revel in drawing attention to themselves through self-serving self promotion. Oops the axe just got a little smaller.
« Last Edit: 01/04/18, 06:23 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #47 on: 01/04/18, 06:38 PM »

So yeah the facts indicate that this is a commercially supported site. Is a fact a smear or is a fact a fact?

Suggesting that this site be renamed "commercials all year" is a smear.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #48 on: 01/04/18, 06:58 PM »

Suggesting that this site be renamed "commercials all year" is a smear.
and that offended you enough that you decided to launch a personal attack?

 I forgot to add that self-serving self-promotion is an ideal found in the commercial world. I see the commercial world as an invasion, similar to a destructive virus,when it enters the natural world.

Here are some words of wisdom to ponder.

"Morality binds and blinds. It binds us into ideological teams that fight each other as though the fate of the world depended on our side winning each battle. It blinds us to the fact that each team is composed of good people who have something important to say."
Jonathan Haidt, The Righteous Mind:


"We should not expect individuals to produce good, open-minded, truth-seeking reasoning, particularly when self-interest or reputational concerns are in play. But if you put individuals together in the right way, such that some individuals can use their reasoning powers to disconfirm the claims of others, and all individuals feel some common bond or shared fate that allows them to interact civilly, you can create a group that ends up producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system. This is why it's so important to have intellectual and ideological diversity within any group or institution whose goal is to find truth (such as an intelligence agency or a community of scientists) or to produce good public policy (such as a legislature or advisory board)."
Jonathan Haidt,


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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #49 on: 01/04/18, 10:16 PM »

Quote
if you put individuals together in the right way, such that some individuals can use their reasoning powers to disconfirm the claims of others, and all individuals feel some common bond or shared fate that allows them to interact civilly, you can create a group that ends up producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system. This is why it's so important to have intellectual and ideological diversity within any group or institution whose goal is to find truth (such as an intelligence agency or a community of scientists) or to produce good public policy (such as a legislature or advisory board)

Oddly enough, this is exactly what the Cascades Backcountry Alliance is trying to do.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #50 on: 01/06/18, 05:33 AM »

Oddly enough, this is exactly what the Cascades Backcountry Alliance is trying to do.
except that it's run by commercial interests.

Many feel that commercial control of our public lands is not a viable sustainable option for the land itself and the valuable habitat it provides, not to mention the ever shrinking Wilderness as a place for humans seeking solace.

You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #51 on: 01/07/18, 12:32 PM »

except that it's run by commercial interests.

Many feel that commercial control of our public lands is not a viable sustainable option for the land itself and the valuable habitat it provides, not to mention the ever shrinking Wilderness as a place for humans seeking solace.

You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

If unfettered  commercial  interests  conttolled the USFS permitting process -- wouldn't we be discussing  the uphill policy at the "Early Winters " ski resort on Sandy Butte?
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #52 on: 01/08/18, 11:38 AM »

If unfettered  commercial  interests  conttolled the USFS permitting process -- wouldn't we be discussing  the uphill policy at the "Early Winters " ski resort on Sandy Butte?
No.

Commercial corporate interests are always chipping away trying to get a bigger piece of the public pie and concerned citizens have to be vigilant.

The people who were against proposed Early Winters Ski Resort raised some valid points concerning air quality and the landholders rights to divert water rights to the proposed ski area 10,000 condo unit project, if I remember correctly.

Early Winters was ultimately stopped through the legal process, by a very determined small group of citizens.

That project had full support from the good old boy club that's contained within the Forest Service.

Need proof of the good old boys club?

Randy do you really believe that a rogue pilot cut all those whitebark pine trees in order to create unauthorized heli-ski Landing zones? Well that's the official Forest Service cover story who are entangled with their corporate partnerships.

The facts say otherwise but those facts were never allowed to be investigated by the law enforcement branch of the FS.*

Humans want to believe whatever supports their bias. Facts are facts, however we also choose to ignore those facts if they're inconsistent with our bias.

I noticed that Crystal Mountain Patrol is not offering any facts as to accident rates involving uphill skiers versus all other accident rates that occur at their ski area.

Neither do the Guide Outfitter corporate- government Partnerships offer their near-miss accident rates unless it can't be hidden.

Am I the only one that thinks facts are important?

Shouldn't policy decisions be based on facts and not the politics of money interests?


"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you."
Jonathan Haidt







* despite repeated public requests the District Ranger would not allow FS forest service law enforcement  to investigate unauthorized tree cutting sites to create an authorized helicopter-ski landing zones that were discovered subsequent to the first sight that was investigated. I've also testified facts related to allegations of false statements being given to FS law enforcement regarding the first cut site. As far as I know that issue is not being investigated.
« Last Edit: 01/08/18, 12:53 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #53 on: 01/08/18, 12:27 PM »

Here's the decision that stopped the Early Winters ski area from being built in the Methow. Note the lawsuit was brought by Methow Valley Citizens Council, Washington State Sportsmen's Council, Washington Environmental Council, and the Cascade Chapter, Sierra Club, who appealed the Regional Forester's decision to issue a permit to the Chief of the Forest Service, and then appealed the Chief of the Forest Service's decision to federal court.
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Randy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #54 on: 01/08/18, 01:11 PM »

Here's the decision that stopped the Early Winters ski area from being built in the Methow. Note the lawsuit was brought by Methow Valley Citizens Council, Washington State Sportsmen's Council, Washington Environmental Council, and the Cascade Chapter, Sierra Club, who appealed the Regional Forester's decision to issue a permit to the Chief of the Forest Service, and then appealed the Chief of the Forest Service's decision to federal court.

Thanks for the link.   Interesting reading.   Mule deer vs developers and the Mule Deer's interests carried the day.   Too bad the descendants of those deer continue to be sacrificed along HWY-153 in a regular basis.



* FB_IMG_1515445923664.jpg (79.07 KB, 960x720 - viewed 565 times.)
« Last Edit: 01/08/18, 01:15 PM by Randy » Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #55 on: 01/08/18, 03:30 PM »

Thanks for the link.   Interesting reading.   Mule deer vs developers and the Mule Deer's interests carried the day.   Too bad the descendants of those deer continue to be sacrificed along HWY-153 in a regular basis.


yeah the good old boys club lost that one because the law had to be followed. Makes you wonder what that whole process cost private citizen taxpayers.

 Sandy Butte still got it's ski lift, although no environmental impact statement was performed, only an environmental assessment, more taxpayer money.

It's my understanding that Sandy Butte is an authorized helicopter ski landing Zone  and can be used by the same company for heli ski clients when the weather does not permit flying via use of a snowcat.


Then there was the environmental assessment appeal and an environmental lawsuit and a corrected environmental assessment, and then that whole tree cutting incident. More taxpayer money.

Quite a bargain for us huh, so the wealthy can have a private playground.



I'd have to check the map to confirm the heli Landing Zone so don't take that as fact.

In the meantime I'm sure the Crystal Patrol is preparing those accident statistics and getting ready to post some facts.
« Last Edit: 01/08/18, 03:46 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #56 on: 01/08/18, 08:51 PM »

...

In the meantime I'm sure the Crystal Patrol is preparing those accident statistics and getting ready to post some facts.

Why no ranting against Mission Ridge that bans uphill travel completely during operating hours.
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andyrew
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #57 on: 01/08/18, 09:15 PM »

Sandy Butte still got it's ski lift, although no environmental impact statement was performed, only an environmental assessment, more taxpayer money.

Where?  I've been up it a handful of times in the winter and have only found an old cattle driveway (which was decent skiing, actually).
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #58 on: 01/09/18, 11:29 PM »

Where?  I've been up it a handful of times in the winter and have only found an old cattle driveway (which was decent skiing, actually).
the lift starts at the hell Barn. You get into a helicopter after forking  over around a grand. The helicopter is the skier lift for the wealthy class and a few dreamers for a day.

And like I said in the previous post, the heli company is allowed to operate a snowcat on Sandy Butte on days when the heli can't fly due to weather.

It's about to start operations for the season, so get ready for some very loud, harmful noise pollution, among other activity which has proven to be harmful to human powered Backcountry skiers and other assorted lifeforms in the area.

Oh boy! "Mommy can I become a helicopter guide someday? Is it really possible".

"Yes son you can' but first you have to be a wannabe"

 " Oh gee Mommy that would be wonderful, wouldn't it Mommy?" Grin

In other news: today I passed by a white bark pine tree that had to be a thousand years old. Imagine that, oh the wonders of Mother Nature that never cease to amaze.
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #59 on: 01/10/18, 09:22 AM »

"Wannabe" what?  Sanctimonious like you?  You know the people who own and run NCH are your neighbors, right?  I see those ladies and guys around the Mazama store whenever I'm out there and they aren't wealthy, at least based on their old trucks and vintage sleds.  Sure appears like they're doing it for the love.  Personally, I like it when they're flying around my intended zone.  Canary in a coal mine. 
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #60 on: 01/10/18, 04:27 PM »

"Wannabe" what?  Sanctimonious like you?  You know the people who own and run NCH are your neighbors, right?  I see those ladies and guys around the Mazama store whenever I'm out there and they aren't wealthy, at least based on their old trucks and vintage sleds.  Sure appears like they're doing it for the love.  Personally, I like it when they're flying around my intended zone.  Canary in a coal mine. 
answer;  wanabe guide.

Guide-Outfitters make a lot of money training guides, but where's the work for them all? Most people don't require or can't afford those services  and are you really safer using those services?

 I mean come on, $300 to take a few laps in the hairpin  without the helicopter.

And figure over a grand a day to take a few laps in the Blue Peak area, Cutthroat, Silver Star, Frisco areas and all the other places that are easily accessible by human Power from Highway 20. But those areas go to the wealthy class starting in January unless you want to tour in there and get f-ed over, or take your chances on a storm day when the helicopters can't fly due to lack of visibility.

I added up my vertical one year and calculated what it would cost for me to have a helicopter lift for the same amount of vertical. Turned out to be something like $23,000 and that's without the benefit of the uphill exercise.

Answer; No, the owners are not my Neighbors.

 They are firmly attached to the government tit with the privilege of an exclusive government public land lease deal, administered and mostly funded by taxpayer money and at the expense of public land resources.

 It's a deal that generates wealth for the already wealthy, at the expensive  of an ordinary citizens right to Peaceful enjoyment of public land, while having to endure increased risk hazards and proven environmental damage.

Does't sound like a great deal for us ordinary citizen taxpayer Backcountry skiers just out to enjoy the peace and quiet of the mountains, seeking solace  and enjoying  friendships just so the wealthy can post pictures of themselves heli-skiing on their Facebook page...

 Are there any other facts that I can help you with?


You know dude, you sure seem ungrateful to someone who tried to save your life by predicting and warning you about specific Avalanche potential in a very specific  location. And look what happened, you triggered that exact spot in Liberty Bowl many years ago. You were lucky.

Someday you may learn to make your own risk analysis and won't have to depend upon others to do it for you. Maybe you won't need a canary in your coal mine as you put it so eloquently.





"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you."
Jonathan Haidt

« Last Edit: 01/10/18, 04:40 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #61 on: 01/10/18, 07:44 PM »

Ha!  You're being totally delusional (again). We've never spoken, you provided no warning and I owe you no debt of gratitude.  Get a grip.  And unlike you, I actually travel around the northwest (and farther) and make field assessments in all kinds of different zones. Thousands of days in the BC (and alpine rock in the summer) so far and never a scratch (knock on wood).  You only know your back yard, and have an incredible hubris about it too. Hope that never bites you in ass (sincerely).
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #62 on: 01/11/18, 08:16 AM »

Ha!  You're being totally delusional (again). We've never spoken, you provided no warning and I owe you no debt of gratitude.  Get a grip.  And unlike you, I actually travel around the northwest (and farther) and make field assessments in all kinds of different zones. Thousands of days in the BC (and alpine rock in the summer) so far and never a scratch (knock on wood).  You only know your back yard, and have an incredible hubris about it too. Hope that never bites you in ass (sincerely).

I reported snow conditions at a specific location specifically to you in reply 10 of this thread. My reply 10  included a quote from you.  and if you back up in the thread you'll see other instability warnings.

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=30101.0

And here's the quote from me to you.

"Lower down, there is a rain/ warming crust transition below the powder that we could feel.�

Up high, Looks  like some  cross wind loading far skiers left below the walls. Could not see the cornice. Tested a steep wind slab over a hard crust and was suprised it did not move, but who knows really it was such a small, small slab.

If I can be of futher assistance,let me know."

And here's your thread reporting the Avalanche you triggered in the exact spot where I noted that there was cross loading. you charged right in without a ski cut on a steep slope that everyone else was avoiding with the questionable snowpack.

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=30239.0

Your quote:

"On our last run, I traversed at the top to the untouched left side of the field, at full speed, and proceed to rail pow turns unstopped almost to the bottom.� I looked over my shoulder to see where my partner was, and was shocked to discover a fairly big avalanche coming up about 150' behind me.� I was hauling ass at the time, and (lucky for me!!!) the avy was moving pretty slow, so I was able to easily ski down to the left into some trees, outside of its path.� My first thought was that my partner had triggered it somehow, so my main focus was trying to identify any signs of him in the flow as it went by (it lasted a surprisingly long time).� Within a few seconds, my partner skied within sight on the far side of the flow, which was a huge relief.� When the slide stopped a few seconds later, it became clear that I had triggered it, likely when I initially traversed into the field, and had somehow managed to stay in front the entire time, blissfully unaware of what was occurring behind me (pics link below).� A close call for sure.� This experience reaffirmed for me that you can never be 100% sure about stability, especially when dealing with a thin snowpack with some faceted layers at depth.� In hindsight, I'm pretty sure I triggered a wind slab at the top of the field, which is guarded by some large cliffs, and is a significant deposition zone for transported snow. That slab stepped down and triggered a more reactive widespread unstable layer. All of this is just supposition though, as I did not notice any slabby snow whatsoever on the run.� It was "sugar" powder top to bottom.� Be careful out there folks!� "


It's interesting that you think that I only ski in the North Cascades. How would you even know where I've skied?

If there are more facts that I can help you with just let me know.

And please read this quote from a well-known moral psychologist. this will be the third time I posted that specific quote in this thread, I hope you read it as it applies to you and the rest of humankind.

"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you."
Jonathan Haidt

« Last Edit: 01/11/18, 08:31 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #63 on: 01/11/18, 12:48 PM »

Wait, I'm confused. What does rehashing this 4-year-old argument have to do with uphill travel at Crystal Mountain?

I'll try to bring it back to the topic (but am still a ways off from the simple way the thread started: as I see it, Crystal patrol making a good effort to make their uphill-travel policy known to the BC community).

My questions about unfettered access to our national forest land: Can I drive my snowmobile up the runs at Crystal? Why can't I take my toboggan to Alpental (uphill dog poop trail obviously excluded)? Can I, after all, take my mountain bike on the PCT in the non-wilderness areas? How about going for a fine hike in an area closed for logging operations? A number of forest service campgrounds are privately managed; can I just pitch my tent in the middle of one of those campgrounds?

I guess I have only been BC skiing for ~15 years, and I know there are many folks on here who have been in the BC much longer, but I think the need for uphill access in ski areas is generally new within this time, or I wasn't paying attention. It just doesn't seem very complicated: if you want to ski fresh powder all the time, you'll have to work for it, and there will be days that you can't (or probably shouldn't) ski big terrain. If you want to ski fun terrain that has had avalanche control work done, then you can expect to pay for it. The fact that Crystal says that you can skin up any of their groomed runs without paying (grooming runs is not free) to have easier access to terrain seems generous enough.
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #64 on: 01/12/18, 11:17 AM »

 You are right, this issue of ski areas deciding that they will kick out up hill traffic is much older than 15 year.  When I worked  ski patrol, 30 years ago, it was a topic of frequent discussion.  The thing that is different now is the Ski industry selling the idea of back country skiing to down hill skiers.  You mix this with ever more people on the planet and you get businesses trying to monetize snow.  The thinking is that to make it work well you need to keep out the people, who haven't paid for the experience! 

However, the fact is that they have already paid for that experience.  Think about it... ski areas are frequently on the highways that access the most goods (think altitude).   They are, as a result, located on the best public paths to the backcountry.  These highways  were built with public funds and are plowed and patrolled with public funds (at great expense!). - It should come as no surprise that the Public uses these roads to access the backcountry and take advantage of the access to public lands that their taxes paid for.

In all cases, safety should be a paramount consideration.   Avalanche control and ski area operation need to be safe.  However, I am afraid safety consideration is frequently perverted into an excuse to monetize snow and drive up corpirate profits.  This is where distrust of the industry spawns among the people who subsidize these corpirate profits.

It is sad that Public Rights seems to get left out of the discussion.  It is sad because with out that Public there would BE NO SKI AREAS!  Most ski areas were pioneered by up hill skiers, who sought to share their mountains with their fellow citizens. 

It is also sad that ski areas drive off potential customers with these exclusive bans.  Think about it..... Who has the best chance of becoming a serious skier?  The casual skier who goes up to ski the lifts once or twice a year?... or the snowy junky who is willing to drive 100 miles,  then climb for hours in the August sun, just to get another 15 minute run?  My money is on those snow junkies.  Those snow junkies are the best hope for expanding their customer base into the future and thus leading to increased ski area profits.  VERY FEW BACKCOUNRY SKIERS LEARNED OR MAINTAIN THEIR CHOPS WITH OUT FREQUENTLY USING LIFTS!

Too much of the Public's Right to Access has been lost to this myopic corpirate thinking.  The only answer to this threat is to stand up and speak out.  This is what the open access advocates are talking about in this thread.  Backcountry..... use it or loose it.
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flowing alpy
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #65 on: 01/12/18, 07:56 PM »

the southern resort charges for premium parking for established guests
I feel the source lake dog park LoT4 needs to be paid permit parking too.
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kneel turner
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Re: Crystal Mountain Uphill Travel
« Reply #66 on: 01/12/18, 09:04 PM »

@ snowjones,
That is very well put. I share a few of the same concerns.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: 01/12/18, 11:19 PM by kneel turner » Logged

No, I'm not a telephone solicitor. I ski with my heels free.
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