telemark skiingbackcountry skiingPacific NorthwestWashington and Oregonweather linksThe Yuki AwardsMt. Rainier and Mt. Adams
Turns All Year
www.turns-all-year.com
  Help | Search | Login | Register
Turns All Year Trip Reports
Backcountry Skiing and Snowboarding

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
01/16/18, 01:29 AM

Become a TAY Sponsor!
 
Trip Reports Sponsor
Feathered Friends
Feathered Friends
Turns All Year Trip Reports
(1) Viewing these pages constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use.
(2) Disclaimer: the accuracy of information here is unknown, use at your own risk.
(3) Trip Report monthly boards: only actual trip report starts a new thread.
(4) Keep it civil and constructive - that is the norm here.
 
FOAC Snow
Info Exchange


NWAC Avalanche
Forecast
+  Turns All Year Trip Reports
|-+  Hot Air
| |-+  Random Tracks: posts that don't fit elsewhere
| | |-+  Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
:
« previous next »
Pages: [1] | Go Down Print
Author Topic: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy  (Read 1754 times)
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« on: 12/10/17, 10:28 AM »

Mountain Safety
In-Season Uphill Policy
Loup Loup Ski Bowl recognizes the enthusiasm of the public to be outdoors enjoying the mountains while participating in different activities. The ski area has experienced a rapid increase in winter snowshoeing, snowboard hiking and the use of alpine touring equipment as a means of uphill travel to access terrain in and outside the resort’s Permit area. This type of recreational use raises safety concerns during operating hours and during off-hours maintenance operations.

Maintenance operations routinely occur on the mountain during all non-operating hours. Machinery can be found working anywhere on the mountain at any time. This policy mitigates safety concerns of recreational use during maintenance operations, while allowing recreational access to public lands.

As the Permit holder for the Loup Loup Ski Bowl area, the Loup Loup Ski Education Foundation (LLSEF) has a responsibility to maintain and secure the area for the intended permitted use.

To that end, the LLSEF has determined that there will be no uphill or downhill traffic on or between the designated active runs of the Loup Loup Ski Bowl on non-operational days prior to or during the ski season, and that uphill traffic is allowed during operational days only on designated uphill routes as determined by the Loup Loup Ski Patrol and LLSEF Management. On normal operational days, all uphill traffic MUST sign in at the Administration office each day, and begin their downhill descent by 3:45pm.

Uphill route(s) are displayed on our website (www.skitheloup.com/mountain-safety), at the Loup Loup Ski Bowl ticket office ski area map and on our ski area trail map brochure. Uphill route trailhead signage will also be provided at the entrance gate of the ski area.

Loup Loup Ski Bowl accepts no liability or responsibility for accidents that occur as a result of uphill travel. RCW 4.24.210

RESPONSIBILITY CODE
You will have more fun if you are safe. Be safety-conscious at all times, and follow these guidelines:

Always stay in control. You should be able to stop and avoid other people and objects.
People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
Never stop on or obstruct a trail.
You should always be visible from above.
Whenever starting downhill and merging onto a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
Always use safety devices to prevent runaway equipment.
Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
You must have the knowledge and ability to safely load, ride, and unload prior to using any lift.
Move out and away from the lift unloading area prior to gathering or strapping into your snowboard binding.
All on-mountain ski/snowboard equipment must meet the following standards: metal edge, p-tex base, ski brakes, and retention strap or leash.
Abusive language, rude or criminal conduct, obscene clothing or appearance, and activities that endanger yourself and others won’t be tolerated.
Officially endorsed by the National Ski Areas Association. Failure to comply with this responsibility code may result in the loss of skiing/snowboarding and service privileges.

Look Before You Leap
Observe all signage and warnings before getting into freestyle terrain.
Familiarize yourself with each of the jumps before going over them.
Start slow. Use your first run as a warm-up to familiarize yourself with the terrain.
Be aware that features change constantly due to weather, usage, grooming, and time of day.
Do not jump blindly. Use a spotter when necessary.
Easy Style It
Know your limits and ski/ride within your ability level.
Look for small progression parks or features to begin with and work your way up.
Freestyle skills require maintaining control on the ground and in the air.
Do not attempt any features unless you have sufficient ability and experience to do so safely.
Inverted aerials increase your risk of injury and are not recommended.
Respect Gets Respect
Respect the terrain and others. (Freestyle terrain is for everyone regardless of equipment or ability.)
One person on a feature at a time.
Wait your turn and call your start.
Always clear the landing area quickly.
Respect all signs and stay off closed terrain and features.
Kids and Safety on The Mountain
The best way to keep skiing and riding safe for children is to make sure they understand safety guidelines. Make learning fun, and demonstrate the importance of safe riding. These safety tips will get the conversation started.

Help your child memorize the “Responsibility Code.”
Dress your child in layers so they can be comfortable in a variety of conditions, and prepare them for rapidly changing weather. Apply sun protection, and make sure your child always wears goggles or sunglasses.
Keep the name and phone number of your accommodations, along with your cell phone number, in a secure pocket of your child’s coat or ski pants.
Enroll your child in lessons to make sure they get started properly. Our instructors know how to teach kids proper techniques so they can progress faster and enjoy their time with you at Loup Loup.
Lids on Kids
Helmets make Loup Loup safer and more fun. Lids on Kids is a fun program that encourages the use of helmets on the mountain. Visit www.lidsonkids.org to discover how to find the best helmet for your child.
Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
filbo
Member
Offline

Posts: 371


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #1 on: 12/10/17, 08:25 PM »

Rules, rules, and more rules.   Ever hike and ski a resort before opening day and get a ride up from a cat driver who was cool beyond words.   I have and it was this year in late November, no matter how unsafe the powers that be regarded it.
Logged
Lowell_Skoog
Member
Offline

Posts: 2071


WWW
Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #2 on: 12/10/17, 08:56 PM »

Uphill route(s) are displayed on our website (www.skitheloup.com/mountain-safety), at the Loup Loup Ski Bowl ticket office ski area map and on our ski area trail map brochure.

The web page noted above doesn't currently have a map of the uphill route. Can it be added?

I've skinned at Loup Loup several times, both before and after the uphill policy was enacted. I checked in at the office the last time I went (a few years ago) and everything went smoothly. The uphill route (at that time) went up along the south edge of the ski area.
Logged
snoqpass
Member
Offline

Posts: 283


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #3 on: 12/10/17, 09:47 PM »

Ski areas seem to getting overwhelmed with uphill traffic which isn’t going to work with the increasing downhill skier usage, at some point the USFS needs to figure out how to open up more winter access to accommodate the increased usage in this region
Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #4 on: 12/10/17, 09:55 PM »

The web page noted above doesn't currently have a map of the uphill route. Can it be added?

I've skinned at Loup Loup several times, both before and after the uphill policy was enacted. I checked in at the office the last time I went (a few years ago) and everything went smoothly. The uphill route (at that time) went up along the south edge of the ski area.

I believe that the uphill policy was enacted in order to cover the ski area liability.


From my reading, the policy basically states to use the uphill route for side country public land access but don't ski down the runs or in between the runs.

Quote;

"To that end, the LLSEF has determined that there will be no uphill or downhill traffic on or between the designated active runs of the Loup Loup Ski Bowl on non-operational days prior to or during the ski season, and that uphill traffic is allowed during operational days only on designated uphill routes as determined by the Loup Loup Ski Patrol and LLSEF Management. On normal operational days, all uphill traffic MUST sign in at the Administration office each day, and begin their downhill descent by 3:45pm."

Unfortunately the loop loop side country is very often low cover snow and full of obstacle hazards. So of course people are going to ski within the permit area itself.

It also seems like they don't want you there at all when the area is closed, which for the loop loop is generally Mondays and Tuesdays unless Monday is a holiday. Might even be closed on Thursdays but I have to check that.

So once again, of course people are going to ski in the big red off limits area when it's closed.

So I guess if you get injured while breaking the policy, the ski area is not liable for damages.

I've skinned that Hill many times over the last 35 years for preseason conditioning, taking the dog out when the area is closed ( He only likes groomers), and even for rehabbing a knee injury.

The map of the uphill route below is from a sign that's posted on the road entry gate. The uphill route mainly consists of a cat Road which is often used to access the radio and cell towers on the summit.

However, skiers do you use that road, so you can expect downhill ski traffic on a very narrow road.


* 1123171011-1.jpg (170.82 KB, 907x582 - viewed 1126 times.)
« Last Edit: 12/10/17, 10:20 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
pipedream
Member
Offline

Posts: 645


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #5 on: 12/11/17, 03:10 PM »

I can never tell if these uphill travel restrictions have been enacted due to liability concerns or under the guise of liability to preserve the snow on non-operating days for paying customers.

When there were fewer folks earning their turns it wasn't a problem. Perhaps because the average ability level of the backcountry skier was higher. Or perhaps because the number of tracks they were making was lower. IMO not being able to tour a ski area outside of their operating season (give or take a handful of days for set-up & tear-down) is heresy. People were climbing up things to ski back down them long before mechanical advantages became involved. It would behoove the Loup and other ski areas to clarify their out-of-season uphill travel policies if they haven't already because they end-up sounding like that cop in The Big Lebowski ("Stay out of Malibu!").
« Last Edit: 12/11/17, 03:14 PM by pipedream » Logged

Moral of story is don't ski when you can snowboard
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #6 on: 12/12/17, 10:13 AM »

I can never tell if these uphill travel restrictions have been enacted due to liability concerns or under the guise of liability to preserve the snow on non-operating days for paying customers.

When there were fewer folks earning their turns it wasn't a problem. Perhaps because the average ability level of the backcountry skier was higher. Or perhaps because the number of tracks they were making was lower. IMO not being able to tour a ski area outside of their operating season (give or take a handful of days for set-up & tear-down) is heresy. People were climbing up things to ski back down them long before mechanical advantages became involved. It would behoove the Loup and other ski areas to clarify their out-of-season uphill travel policies if they haven't already because they end-up sounding like that cop in The Big Lebowski ("Stay out of Malibu!").
I think you are correct about that. Until yesterday I thought it was a just a way to cover their liability but I think you're right, it has more to do with powder being a commodity.

Unfortunately the commercial interests on public land are sucking the soul out of the peaceful enjoyment of nature by placing a monetary value on Nature's Wonder and trying to ring every last dime out of that.

In that process they firmly reveal themselves as being bad actors. For example in the commercial guiding industry, the self-promotion and establishment of a hierarchical  system is sickening.

 I've seen and experienced that they're willing to lie cheat,intimidate, harass, violate the law and violate their permits in order to get at an ever-increasing piece of the pie.

But I digress.

So what happened yesterday.

Well yesterday my wife and I and Siberian Husky pack member Kodi went up to the loop loop ski bowl to celebrate the 40th anniversary of our first date. Also my home was thick in inversion cloud that was laying down bathtub effect surface Frost everywhere, and it was bluebird sunny at the Loop Loop.

Walking along the road to access the uphill Trail we encountered a former ski area manager and ski shop owner of the loop loop who I believe is no longer affiliated with the loop loop ski bowl, but he does have a key to the gate. We've known each other for a long long time.

He was driving his truck out toward the closed gate. I could tell by his body language that I was going to get yelled at.

When he stopped I immediately tried to strike up a friendly conversation by commenting how the machine in his trailer was cool, and it was. It was an ATV with tracks on each wheel.

He said to me " you know they don't want you up there"

I said that "I know, but it's public land", and I was "willing to go to court" to settle the matter if necessary.

Well that infuriated him and he went on to tell me how pristine the mountain was at the moment and that he already talked to two snowboarders that we're heading up.

I told him I did not intend ski the groomed portions of the ski area. Typically I ski the powder next to the rounds while my dog runs down the grooming because he's 10 years old and can't handle Punchy snow.

Well that seems to satisfy him and he went on.

When we got to the uphill Trail I noticed the reason for his machine. He drove his machine up the uphill Trail to the summit and down. Well like I said before, that uphill Trail cat track is a playground for many of the kids who ski the area. Area and now it has being ruined by his machine with deep ruts. He created a safety hazard.

I sure would like to know how he justifies taking his machine up on the hill using a key to the gate when he does not appear to be associated with the ski hill any longer. Oh well, typical power trippers.

Maybe he was just up there to enjoy the Sun and Recreation and celebrate creation and remember friends and loved ones who are no longer with us.

That mountain, like many mountains that I've spent my entire life traveling through, is a sacred place.

 I see echoes of the past and stand amazed.

« Last Edit: 12/12/17, 11:48 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
filbo
Member
Offline

Posts: 371


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #7 on: 12/13/17, 08:54 AM »

Freeski you are right about powder being turned into a commodity.   So many resorts now offer early chair lift access before posted opening for an extra fee usually around 30 to 50 dollars plus the price of the lift ticket.   The last time I skied Whistler several years ago after a nice overnight dump I got up early to get in line for first chairs and there were about 400 people already loaded and up the mountain skiing it all to smithereens for the extra powder fee.   It was the first time I came into contact with the selling of the powder.   These days I stay away from all the big mega resorts that charge outrageous ticket prices but over the years have discovered many small family type places that are still affordable with great bc access and the true good vibe.   The family resort I have had a season pass to for the last 20 some years has built a new lodge high up on the mountain that gives one the feeling of a European type setting with access to incredible bc skiing and the comfort of returning to the lodge for food and drink and heading back out and also with two microwaves always available for the patrons who bring their own lunches.   This is the way it should be.   How many resorts now ban sack lunches or banish them to some basement next to the toilets.   So it goes.
Logged
SKIER-X
Member
Offline

Posts: 111


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #8 on: 12/13/17, 12:09 PM »

 Every European ski area I visited over a 10 year period allowed unrestricted uphill and touring access . There must be some deep cultural component in play there as well as being personally responsible for your own destiny. I have a 30 year stack of old Loup Loup seasons passes. I cant hammer the hardpack any more so Ive really enjoyed going with my family and rendevousing with them at the top and lodge. In recent years Ive been harrassed by a patroler on a power trip even though I was having a conversation with his superior !   If this is the new policy there , we will no longer be purchasing passes . Maybe we will just take our recreation dollars north of the boarder .  Theres a toxic odor in the air !   X    P.S. ,That set of quad runner track trenches they leave on the Sunnyside up and down track are super dangerous , way way more dangerous than anyone skinning up in plain sight ,since they also funnel downhillers into this blind sighted luge run !
« Last Edit: 12/13/17, 02:39 PM by SKIER-X » Logged

Skiing Batman
AlpineRose
Member
Offline

Posts: 176


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #9 on: 12/13/17, 03:22 PM »

Quote
There must be some deep cultural component in play there as well as being personally responsible for your own destiny.
Yes, there is.  There are deep cultural components in play in this country as well.  The first are called "lawyers, lots and lots of them".  The second is that anything unfortunate that happens is always someone else's fault.  The two are intertwined.

As to powder being a commodity.  Consider how skiers talk about "stashes", the "the goods", and "go get some". 

That toxic odor in the air - the smell of money.    
Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #10 on: 12/15/17, 12:40 PM »

Every European ski area I visited over a 10 year period allowed unrestricted uphill and touring access . There must be some deep cultural component in play there as well as being personally responsible for your own destiny. I have a 30 year stack of old Loup Loup seasons passes. I cant hammer the hardpack any more so Ive really enjoyed going with my family and rendevousing with them at the top and lodge. In recent years Ive been harrassed by a patroler on a power trip even though I was having a conversation with his superior !   If this is the new policy there , we will no longer be purchasing passes . Maybe we will just take our recreation dollars north of the boarder .  Theres a toxic odor in the air !   X    P.S. ,That set of quad runner track trenches they leave on the Sunnyside up and down track are super dangerous , way way more dangerous than anyone skinning up in plain sight ,since they also funnel downhillers into this blind sighted luge run !
X you are totally correct. That uphill ski path is an accident waiting to happen. It's way too narrow to allow for uphill traffic and downhill traffic at the same time. Add quad tracks made by a power Tripper and the chance for accident even without uphill traffic, well let's just say I'm waiting for the accident report. I just hope it's not Someone's Child.


And when you think about it, a skier skinning up one of the wide-open runs is no more dangerous than someone who stops in the middle of a run.

It's always the downhill skier responsibility to ensure that you don't Blindside someone down below you whether that be a skinning skier or someone stopped in the middle of the Run.

The safest time to skin up the loop and descend is when they are closed and yet the loop loop policy does not allow that.

So yeah I was openly violating the loop loop policy but I believe my actions are consistent with the special use permit. I'm also willing to have the courts make the decision. Rules are not always consistent with law and those rules need to be challenged.

While I haven't read the special use permit for the loop loop, every special use permit I read states that it's public land that cannot exclude the public unless for safety reasons. The loop loop would be hard to make a case that someone violating their policy on a day that they're closed is placing others at risk of harm, unless of course you're running a quad ATV up and down the hill.

It would be very easy for the loop loop to post when grooming operations are taking place if that's really a safety concern. Is a groomer really going to run me over? I'm old but I can still avoid a groomer.

Or maybe it's a skier leaving tracks in Fresh Grooming that could become hard pack? Well there's Frozen tracks all the time at ski areas and I certainly don't want to mess up a ski areas Fresh Grooming.

I stopped paying to ski the Loup Loup when I realized it was a frustrating experience on a powder day to watch the volunteer  Patrol ski three runs each while I was standing in line watching and waiting for the lifts to open to the paying customers.

filbo, thanks for sharing that story. I had heard rumors that ski areas were starting to Grant special privileges for money. I think it's time for the public to demand equal access as a condition for use on the special use permit.

And now I see that the 'Commercial Backcountry Access' folks (CBA) are starting to charge for guided tours of the ski area side country. I'm guessing they get first chair privileges also.

I'm just guessing but I believe a lot of this uphill policy at major destination ski areas has been influenced by Outfitter guide services who want more of the pie.

I actually think it's a good thing for guide Outfitters to conduct education courses at ski areas however, not at the expense of excluding people who desire access to public land.

I don't have any facts to back that up so it's just speculation on my part, mostly based on one of the Guide- Outfitters rants here on turns all year when he was trying to correlate ski areas shutting down with of the uphill traffic.

Don't want those uphillers to compete for that powder do we?

Yeah AlpineRose, I agree with you, it is the smell of money. And it's a major source of conflict in our Mountains.
« Last Edit: 12/15/17, 12:57 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
snoqpass
Member
Offline

Posts: 283


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #11 on: 12/15/17, 09:27 PM »

79A.45.070 RCW
Logged
altasnob
Member
Offline

Posts: 282


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #12 on: 12/16/17, 06:57 PM »

79A.45.070 RCW

"Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure."

Has anyone ever in the history of Washington been charged with that offense? The ski area would have to prove the suspect's identity, but unlike law enforcement, I am not sure ski area employees have any legal power to detain an individual or force the person to identify themselves.
Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #13 on: 12/18/17, 02:31 PM »

"Skiing in an area or trail closed to the public—Penalty.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person knowingly skis in an area or on a ski trail, owned or controlled by a ski area operator, that is closed to the public and that has signs posted indicating the closure."

Has anyone ever in the history of Washington been charged with that offense? The ski area would have to prove the suspect's identity, but unlike law enforcement, I am not sure ski area employees have any legal power to detain an individual or force the person to identify themselves.
when someone is skinning up a ski area and there are pass holder skiers skiing down, that area is obviously open to the public.

My case might be a little different because the loop loop is saying that the ski area is not to be skied when they're not open.

However the loop is stating that the reason they don't want me on the hill is because there could be groomers on the hill at any time and that is their safety concern.

"This type of recreational use raises safety concerns during operating hours and during off-hours maintenance operations."

Well fine, get a little mailbox red flag, put it on the sign and Flip It Up when maintenance operations are actually happening. That's a pretty simple, practical mitigation solution unless of course there's other unstated reasons why they don't want the public using public land.

I think X and I've already pointed out that the designated uphill route is an accident waiting to happen because it is not closed to downhill traffic while uphill traffic is enroute and it is a very narrow road with several blind spots.

If a loop were truly concerned about Public Safety, they would not allow any type of access to their side country via the ski area. The low snow cover hazard conditions around the loop are horrendous.

For that matter so are areas just off the ski run and in between the ski runs. Those areas are also low snow cover obstacle hazardous areas.

 A friend of mine actually fell on a Traverse Trail and  landed just barely off the trail and received a stick stuck into his back 1/4 inch away from the spine. He would have bled out if not for competence of the volunteer Patrol up there.

Well if the loop wanted to go after me for skiing  the area during the preseason or on days when they're closed, well I guess civil disobedience has it's price. (Like someone stole my "Heli-free North Cascades" politcal protest sign the other day, yeah it's come to that)

  Washington state law that was quoted. Is it consistent with the terms of the special use permit? I don't know, that would be for a judge to sort out.

 I suspect that Wa law is intended for trail closures related to when  the ski area is open and a specific Trail needs to be closed and not a blanket 'this public land is closed to the public', even when their stated safety concern of 'Maintenance operations' is not occurring.
« Last Edit: 12/18/17, 02:42 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
snojones
5Member
Offline

Posts: 52


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #14 on: 12/19/17, 08:06 AM »

As to the future of Powder Skiing... I think it is going dinosaur.  Fat skis have changed Powder Days
Freeski you are right about powder being turned into a commodity.   So many resorts now offer early chair lift access before posted opening for an extra fee usually around 30 to 50 dollars plus the price of the lift ticket.   The last time I skied Whistler several years ago after a nice overnight dump I got up early to get in line for first chairs and there were about 400 people already loaded and up the mountain skiing it all to smithereens for the extra powder fee.   It was the first time I came into contact with the selling of the powder.   These days I stay away from all the big mega resorts that charge outrageous ticket prices but over the years have discovered many small family type places that are still affordable with great bc access and the true good vibe.   The family resort I have had a season pass to for the last 20 some years has built a new lodge high up on the mountain that gives one the feeling of a European type setting with access to incredible bc skiing and the comfort of returning to the lodge for food and drink and heading back out and also with two microwaves always available for the patrons who bring their own lunches.   This is the way it should be.   How many resorts now ban sack lunches or banish them to some basement next to the toilets.   So it goes.


Fat skis have turned Powder days into Crowd Days.  Anybody with enough money can ski powder now.  Skill has become irrelevant, and Powder Days have been reduced to the first 1 or 2 runs after the lift is turned on.  Even hidden stashes vanish shortly after the lift starts running.
Logged
Travis Thornton
5Member
Offline

Posts: 5


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #15 on: 12/19/17, 08:42 AM »

Loup Loup is a community owned 501(c)(3) charitable organization run by a hard-working and dedicated all volunteer board that provides recreational and educational opportunities to many who don't have the privilege of owning snowmobiles and backcountry ski equipment, and winter employment that is otherwise hard to come by for many around here.  I used to enjoy early season uphilling at the Loup like many others, including some Loup board members.  If those people, to whom I am greatful, have made a decision that uphilling should be limited or prohibited within the permit boundaries, whether for safety or any other reason, like not having to deal with dog crap on the groomers, so be it.  That someone should claim they are somehow above the determinations of this organization because "I like doing it" makes me angry. To call that "civil disobedience" is insulting to those who actually put their bodies on the line for just causes, and from someone who yells "law and order" over other uses of National Forest lands he doesn't agree with, represents a staggering degree of hypocrisy. If you don't like it, join the board and advocate for your position.  If you want those pre-opening turns on powder mornings, join the ski patrol, another hard-working group of dedicated volunteers who deserve every perk they get.  Otherwise, save it.   
Logged
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #16 on: 12/24/17, 02:52 PM »

Loup Loup is a community owned 501(c)(3) charitable organization run by a hard-working and dedicated all volunteer board that provides recreational and educational opportunities to many who don't have the privilege of owning snowmobiles and backcountry ski equipment, and winter employment that is otherwise hard to come by for many around here.  I used to enjoy early season uphilling at the Loup like many others, including some Loup board members.  If those people, to whom I am greatful, have made a decision that uphilling should be limited or prohibited within the permit boundaries, whether for safety or any other reason, like not having to deal with dog crap on the groomers, so be it.  That someone should claim they are somehow above the determinations of this organization because "I like doing it" makes me angry. To call that "civil disobedience" is insulting to those who actually put their bodies on the line for just causes, and from someone who yells "law and order" over other uses of National Forest lands he doesn't agree with, represents a staggering degree of hypocrisy. If you don't like it, join the board and advocate for your position.  If you want those pre-opening turns on powder mornings, join the ski patrol, another hard-working group of dedicated volunteers who deserve every perk they get.  Otherwise, save it.   
interesting, the Loup Loup board members used to skin up the area when they were closed.

And now that's been deemed to be unsafe. And now the board wants to direct me to a narrow uphill trail that's open to downhill traffic and they think that's safe.?

no this issue isn't about safety, it's about wanting me to spend $48 on a lift ticket in order to access public land so I can join the frenzied crowd looking to get a scrap of powder.

No thanks. I don't find those conditions to be safe any longer.

 I also have an arthritic knee that can't tolerate the conditions that are found at ski areas so for the last 20 years it's been human power.

Maintaining a certain level of fitness definitely keeps that knee strong. Spending most of the day sitting on a chair lift doesn't cut it.

 Actually skinning up the loop helped in my road to recovery when that arthritic knee sustained an overuse injury.

I don't think that your personal attack on me bodes well for your argument. In fact according to the rules of civil discourse and debate you just nullified your entire argument.

I actually think the loop does good work, and is a Community Asset. Perhaps you may have purchased one of my wife's paintings that she used to donate every year to help support the loop. Now we contribute to more needy causes I'm afraid.

I used to teach skiing there in the early 80s and one of the patrol members there, I believe it was 1979, took me for my very first side country experience. Thanks Eric.

Since my tax money goes into plowing the roads that access the loop and pays for Forest Service management oversight, I feel perfectly justified in expressing my opinion here.

If a judge were to rule that all ski areas can deny access to public land over questionable safety concerns then I would certainly follow that ruling.

Saving the powder for the paying customer is not a safety concern in my book.

 so I was up there the other day and skied to scrap of powder on the side of one of the runs. It very wind-blown, but it was a day of moderate exercise that I used to maintain my fitness level and keep the pain at Bay.  The alternative was to go up into the backcountry in conditions so dangerous that falling in the snow could have been fatal.

 I wanted to ski a line under the chair but it appeared that the chairlift had already been running and the ski patrol got that line, so don't blame me if you don't get your opening day scrap.

By the way I've never seen dog crap on any of the groom runs up there.
Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #17 on: 12/24/17, 04:11 PM »

"In law, acquiescence occurs when a person knowingly stands by without raising any objection to the infringement of his or her rights, while someone else unknowingly and without malice aforethought acts in a manner inconsistent with their rights.[1] As a result of acquiescence, the person whose rights are infringed may lose the ability to make a legal claim against the infringer, or may be unable to obtain an injunction against continued infringement. The doctrine infers a form of "permission" that results from silence or passiveness over an extended period of time."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquiescence

My mother didn't raise me to be a sheep.

I take pride in the fact that both my parents marched in solidarity during the Civil Rights marches on Washington back in the 60s.


« Last Edit: 12/24/17, 04:22 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
Member
Offline

Posts: 611


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #18 on: 12/25/17, 12:17 PM »

And for those who you who don't think that public access to Federal lands is a worthy cause that justifies the use of nonviolent protest and civil disobedience need to look beyond the self serving little picture that you see.

Imagine having to,purchase a terrain area ticket to go Backcountry skiing.

https://www.rei.com/blog/stewardship/public-lands-theodore-roosevelt-conservation-partnership

"Many of the same forces that fought Roosevelt in the early 1900s are at it again, seeking to turn public assets into private commodities. "


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/01/03/house-gop-rules-change-would-make-it-easier-to-sell-off-federal-land/?sw_bypass=true&utm_term=.e748d06cac1a

"Many Republicans, including House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Rob Bishop (R-Utah), have been pushing to hand over large areas of federal land to state and local authorities, on the grounds that they will be more responsive to the concerns of local residents."

"Environmental groups were quick to criticize the move.

Alan Rowsome, senior government relations director for The Wilderness Society, said in a statement, “Right out of the gate, Congressional Republicans are declaring open season on federal lands… This is not Theodore Roosevelt-style governing, this move paves the way for a wholesale giveaway of our American hunting, fishing and camping lands that belong to us all.”

 keep corporations out of our pristine mountain environments  and Wilderness. They have proven by their illegal actions and the conflict that they create that they are not good stewards of the land.

We have the right to a safe and Peaceful enjoyment of Our National Heritage

Heli -free North Cascades
« Last Edit: 12/25/17, 12:26 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Eli3
Member
Offline

Posts: 191


WWW
Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #19 on: 12/25/17, 08:56 PM »

Its not even that complicated - After being continually hassled by stevens nordic center staff, I've gotten a FOIA request on almost every special use permit and operating plan for ski areas in Washington.  The only language any of them have related to this subject is

"F.  Area Access. Except for any restrictions as the holder and the authorized officer may agree to be necessary to protect the installation of and operation of authorized structures and developments, the lands and waters covered by this permit shall remain open to the public for all lawful purposes.  To facilitate public use of this area, all existing roads or roads as may be constructed by the holder, shall remain open to the public, except for roads as may be closed by joint agreement of the holder and the authorized officer"

When I made the request, I asked for all documents related to access - which means, there are no other agreements between the FS and ski areas around the restriction of use.  It seems the only way a ski area can legally restrict access is to close an area for everyone, under the state law previously mentioned - or by mutual agreement with the FS (of which there is no documentation).
Logged
kneel turner
Member
Offline

Posts: 637


Re: Loop loop Ski Bowl safety and Uphill policy
« Reply #20 on: 12/26/17, 11:42 AM »

It sure seems that Eli3 is correct. I've tried, but can't seem to find any language that grants lease holder additional ability to restrict access, and i don't see a logical way to interpret the intent of discoverable language as anything other than protecting the public's access to said land.
All that I've been able to find is the standard language in the SUP.  Eli's FOIA should have included any further agreements between the forest manager and lease holder (as specifically called for in the SUP), and in crystal's case, there have been no responses to requests for a reference to any such agreements.
I believe there are some very good reasons to restrict access to specific areas within resort boundaries at times, but can anyone (preferably resorts or land managers on this forum) please reference the document(s), binding agreements, or even back room handshake deals with the legal names of parties present that allows the types of restrictions we are seeing at resorts operating on FS land?
It may help to be more specific.  Let's start with restrictions that:
-Are season long
-Are directionally specific (uphill/downhill)
-By design exclude only non paying public
-Are not capable of preventing damage to operator's structures or developments
-Exclude travel outside of any timeframe where interference could be a concern for operations such as Avalanche control



« Last Edit: 12/26/17, 09:10 PM by kneel turner » Logged

No, I'm not a telephone solicitor. I ski with my heels free.
Pages: [1] | Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Thank you to our sponsors!
click to visit our sponsor: Feathered Friends
Feathered Friends
click to visit our sponsor: Marmot Mountain Works
Marmot Mountain Works
click to visit our sponsor: Second Ascent
Second Ascent
click to visit our sponsor: American Alpine Institute
American Alpine Institute
click to visit our sponsor: Pro Guiding Service
Pro Guiding Service
Contact turns-all-year.com

Turns All Year Trip Reports ©2001-2010 Turns All Year LLC. All Rights Reserved

The opinions expressed in posts are those of the poster and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions of Trip Reports administrators or Turns All Year LLC


Turns All Year Trip Reports | Powered by SMF 1.0.6.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.