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Author Topic: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance  (Read 4810 times)
CBAlliance
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #50 on: 12/13/17, 05:59 PM »

Freeski's post reminded me of another good wish list access spot. It would be great if the CBA could convince the DOT to plow Hwy 20 from Mazama to the Cutthroat Creek turnoff all winter long.  I don't think there are any avy paths that cross the highway between those points, so it would just be a cost issue.  Maybe we could crowd source the funds for an "experimental" season of plowing?  It would provide everyday access to such local favorites as Delancey Ridge, Shangrila and all of the the fantastic skiing around Cutthroat.  It would also facilitate day trip human powered access to Silverstar, the Wine Spires and even Washington Pass.

A local told me that this is already going to happen this year? That's all rumor, if someone has more concrete info please let us know.
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swaterfall
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #51 on: 12/13/17, 09:52 PM »

Excessive or highly repetitive "ranting" or "venting" post will not be tolerated and may be deleted without notice.
As a member of this community you agree to post relevant topics.
As much as possible, your topics should be backed by facts, photographs or URL's where additional information can be found.
Excessive posting on similar topics, or excessively "calling out" others in this community are actions that are likely to have your posts or your membership deleted.
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rlsg
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #52 on: 12/14/17, 08:51 AM »

Now let's be nice😋
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #53 on: 12/14/17, 08:52 AM »

Strawman much?

To your earlier point: yes forums are like town hall meetings. You seem to be filling the role of the angry crank who shows up to every meeting to shout people down while not offering anything constructive.
and you seem to be filling the role of the a******
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #54 on: 12/14/17, 09:05 AM »

Quote
A local told me that this is already going to happen this year? That's all rumor, if someone has more concrete info please let us know.
I believe that you just confirmed your commercial agenda to take away snowmobiling access. I guess it's time to get the snowmobile crowd involved with your CBA ie "Commercial Backcountry Access" agenda.

Yes the local Guides would love to have that section of Road plowed. We're always amused when the road is plowed to Silver Star and the guides load up five snowmobiles with clients and drive a half a mile up the road to ski Delancey Ridge. How do we  ween you commercial guys off the public tit?

 Last year when the road was plowed late into the year there was chaos up there and an Unleashed horde of Trail poachers. The area got very overcrowded and we had situations where skiers were above and descending above other skiers in Avalanche terrain.

And yes we had a near miss head on collision on that road last year. Besides plowing the road would need to be sanded.

Historically I have seen one Avalanche reach the road in that area.

And the rumor is not true. The Washington State Department of Transportation will be not be plowing that road when safety becomes an issue due to snow accumulation.

The money we save from plowing that road will go on to better uses such as health care for needy children.

Anyway I was glad I was able to reveal your commercial agenda and the conflict you're trying to stir up.





« Last Edit: 12/14/17, 09:19 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
SKIER-X
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #55 on: 12/14/17, 10:51 AM »

 The avalanche terrain starts at Silverstar ...That's why the DOT has a gate there and warning signs posted  in the spring . The avy. terrain is marked with orange poles with red reflective tape at the top. The safe zones are marked by green reflective tape . I find it amazing that even ski professionals  chose to disregard these warnings ,  travel close together , and park in these red zones which the followers interpret as proper behavior .It seems like avalanche terrain recognition as well as safe best practices  have become a thing of the past or maybe just uncool the farther up the illusion of  hierarchy you ascend . When you move access directly into avalanche terrain you invite unsuspecting users to exposing themselves to the unforeseen hazards , usually nordic skiers and snowshoers , fatbikers ,etc. with no rescue equipment or knowledge of the mountain environment. Therefor you are raising the number of people out there who unwittingly become a liability and not an asset to others. X
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Skiing Batman
samthaman
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #56 on: 12/14/17, 11:24 AM »

and you seem to be filling the role of the a******

don't like the argument?  fall back on ad hominem! (yes, I did also, so don't call me a hypocrite).

To be clear, I'm trying to help create space for a serious discussion between reasonable people. IMO your unhinged conspiratorial arguments drive people away from the discussion and the site in general. You clearly care about access and related issues, so why not allow for the possibility that someone who has devoted a lot of unpaid time to the issue might not be working for "big outdoor"?
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Beardedclam
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #57 on: 01/03/18, 07:56 PM »

Of course some commercial guide is going to be against snowmo only access. The access is already there, perhaps if you want to drive your prius/subaru to every trailhead, move to SLC and go guide there. Or the front range, plenty of access. It would be good if more soft backcountry users left.

Ubering from amazontown to rei to pick up your arc'teryx for a trip then taking the light rail to snoqualmie isn't an option? Deal with it. Buy a snowmobile. Hike further. Take your sierra club pandering elsewhere.

I missed that quote from earlier about guides nearly killing clients and then lying about it. How many have you almost killed?
« Last Edit: 01/03/18, 09:15 PM by Beardedclam » Logged
snoqpass
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #58 on: 01/04/18, 07:01 PM »

Keep up the good work CBA
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samthaman
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #59 on: 01/05/18, 02:16 PM »

Of course some commercial guide is going to be against snowmo only access. The access is already there, perhaps if you want to drive your prius/subaru to every trailhead, move to SLC and go guide there. Or the front range, plenty of access. It would be good if more soft backcountry users left.

Ubering from amazontown to rei to pick up your arc'teryx for a trip then taking the light rail to snoqualmie isn't an option? Deal with it. Buy a snowmobile. Hike further. Take your sierra club pandering elsewhere.

I missed that quote from earlier about guides nearly killing clients and then lying about it. How many have you almost killed?

I totally agree with your one point where you encouraged everyone to get snowmobiles! Everyone knows a REAL cascade hardman drives a snowmobile, not a cowardly little foreign car. If i'm not mistaken, most of Fred Beckeys first ascents involved a snowmobile approach up a logging road, and everyone knows he NEVER simply parked his car at a trailhead and started hiking. I did hear that he rode in a helicopter a few times in Alaska though, so I'm unclear on how that plays into his hardmanly-ness. Please advise on that distinction. 

I'm slightly unclear on your other point though: since everyone in Seattle is super rich and will now be buying snowmobiles to access skiing(per your recommendation), do you think it might lead to more people skiing your stash?  I'm worried that the people that already snowmobile might get frustrated when they encounter all the new snowmobile owners riding in spots they've ridden for years. I know that crowded parking at snow parks has NEVER been an issue, so even though my gut tells me to advocate for more parking to spread people out , I've now learned (thanks to your salient points above) that things are perfect as they are and must never change. The more experienced sled skiers that don't like the new crowding will surely be amenable to your solution of simply uprooting their lives and moving out of state. I bet Alaska isn't too crowded yet, but maybe you have a better place in mind?

Thank you for your thoughtful and considered response earlier, it really helped get this discussion back on track.

BTW, are you still selling those arc'teryx jackets you had listed over on TGR? Was it too late to just return them to REI? https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/314039-BNIB-Arc-teryx-Mens-Cerium-LT-XL-Womens-Nuri-L-both-Charcoal-color

« Last Edit: 01/05/18, 02:58 PM by samthaman » Logged
samthaman
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #60 on: 01/05/18, 02:39 PM »

When you move access directly into avalanche terrain you invite unsuspecting users to exposing themselves to the unforeseen hazards , usually nordic skiers and snowshoers , fatbikers ,etc. with no rescue equipment or knowledge of the mountain environment. Therefor you are raising the number of people out there who unwittingly become a liability and not an asset to others. X

Finally, someone is willing to advocate for the safety of helpless snowshoers and nordic skiers! Though I'm sure it bothers you that they haven't yet thanked you for the work you do, your handle indicates that you understand that, like a skiing Batman, it's best if you remain anonymous. Take a bow hero, though no-one can know your name, tales of your good deeds will surely be handed down through the ages.
« Last Edit: 01/05/18, 07:52 PM by samthaman » Logged
SKIER-X
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #61 on: 01/06/18, 11:09 AM »



To be clear, I'm trying to help create space for a serious discussion between reasonable people. 
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Skiing Batman
Beardedclam
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #62 on: 01/06/18, 06:59 PM »

To be clear, I'm trying to help create space for a serious discussion between reasonable people.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #63 on: 01/13/18, 09:41 AM »



To be clear, I'm trying to help create space for a serious discussion between reasonable people. 
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #64 on: 01/13/18, 10:33 AM »

In case you missed it here is some quotes by this commercial Backcountry access group. CBA quotes from this thread.

"As far as the primary members: I currently work for International Mountain Guides. The past 4 winters you may have seen me at Pro Ski and Mountain Service in North Bend, where I worked in the shop. Some of our key members are also in the industry, and work for guide services such as Mountain Madness and Alpine Ascents, as well as Ascent Outdoors in Seattle. Others work at resorts, other retailers, and at gear companies.

To be very clear: we do not represent the interests of any of these institutions as the CBA. "

"I understand you think that guides are regularly either killing clients or nearly so, and then lying...... I'm not going to discuss or debate it here with you."

"If you can refrain from openly disparaging my profession and me (I have no interest in insulting carpenters), then I would love to have a civil discussion about the concerns you have raised"

"Our mission is not to make the backcountry safe per se. "

"However, I think you are getting at the broad provisions for other use that affect the ski area, and wondering how they are able to regulate their terrain so tightly. I believe that the sentence above is the key point here- the permit holder does have rights and privileges, as well as a mandate to maintain public safety. This is all theoretical. I think the practical point is that ski areas absolutely have the right to close areas to travel when they have safety concerns."

"6. Alpine ski permittees will be encouraged to integrate winter dispersed recreation into their operations if and when the opportunity and demand exists. "

I maintain this group was organized to represent commercial interest on public land. I find it interesting that the CBA quoted number 6 from a FS travel plan. Integrating more commercial use on public land truly represents this group's agenda.

Does anybody know where I can find their  list of money sponsors. Transparency shouldn't be a problem.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

It is a duck!


« Last Edit: 01/13/18, 10:46 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
kamtron
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #65 on: 01/13/18, 01:59 PM »

Heli-free, you might find a better audience for these rants on 4chan

Keep up the good work, CBA
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #66 on: 01/13/18, 04:07 PM »

Heli-free, you might find a better audience for these rants on 4chan

Keep up the good work, CBA
Why can't you all express your opinions without bothering me about it.

I'm Expressing my opinion about a public commercial political organization that has a commercial agenda and therefore is trying to impact public land policy for the benefit of the commercialism of public land.

You're expressing your opinion about me. Can you see the difference?

That commercial agenda has an impact on my life.

Commercialism in my Backcountry area almost killed a friend of mine, almost had a helicopter land on another friend, and is a constant damaging noise impact, not to mention not a lot of fun to have avalanches triggered above you if you are a ski tourer and dare to enter public land where the helicopter or guided groups are operating.

Not to mention all the environmental damage.

Not to mention my tax dollars pay to support commercialism in the back country.

Not to mention the incident last year where a helicopter pilot decided to put myself and my wife at an increased risk of harm by purposely flying in our faces.

 Not to mention the guide Outfitter harassment and intimidation of private citizens.

I'm talking about safety here, ethical values and  what private citizens seeking solace are willing to put up with on public land so some privileged fat cats can line their pockets.

I've drawn a line here where commercial values  that cause the death of so many is unacceptable.

So too bad you think that I'm ranting. I know I'm in good company.

What values are truly acceptable to you?

Do you think lying is a virtue?

Do you think intimidation is acceptable?

Yes let's Embrace commercial values so you can park your latte closer to the trailhead, take a selfie and post it on your Facebook page. Look at me,look at me, me, me, me, me.

Now that's what I call a rant. Thanks for listening.

" make a list of what you need before you sign away the deed
Because it's not going to stop 'til you wise up"
Aimee Mann








 

« Last Edit: 01/13/18, 05:21 PM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Jim Oker
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #67 on: 01/13/18, 05:04 PM »

Hey CBAlliance - thanks for  reaching out to  the  community here and giving us a chance to have input. Like a few others  here, I find myself questioning the choices for  priorities  on the  "plowing" part  of  your projects  plan.

Frankly while I think it's great and  important to have some organized effort on  access hereabouts, I'm  finding it hard to get excited about pitching in given those  stated priorities. It might help me if I could see a little past them - for instance could you  share any sort of  "grading rubric" you  used for stack ranking the great many possible "plowing" projects one could imagine in  our region? I  think it might be  quite  helpful  to expose that  and have a robust community discussion  about it, which would also let folks like me think  out what  additional ideas to contribute along with deciding whether we want to  contribute more  in terms  of time and energy toward your mission. I don't think this would need  to be a time-consuming thing for you to put out there, assuming you guys did have some method to how you  winnowed to your current  list.
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CBAlliance
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #68 on: 01/13/18, 06:39 PM »

Hey CBAlliance - thanks for  reaching out to  the  community here and giving us a chance to have input. Like a few others  here, I find myself questioning the choices for  priorities  on the  "plowing" part  of  your projects  plan.

Frankly while I think it's great and  important to have some organized effort on  access hereabouts, I'm  finding it hard to get excited about pitching in given those  stated priorities. It might help me if I could see a little past them - for instance could you  share any sort of  "grading rubric" you  used for stack ranking the great many possible "plowing" projects one could imagine in  our region? I  think it might be  quite  helpful  to expose that  and have a robust community discussion  about it, which would also let folks like me think  out what  additional ideas to contribute along with deciding whether we want to  contribute more  in terms  of time and energy toward your mission. I don't think this would need  to be a time-consuming thing for you to put out there, assuming you guys did have some method to how you  winnowed to your current  list.


Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response. Let me say right up front that there's no formula here. I wish we had one- I'd share it in a second! We lack the resources to even put together data. I understand that the project selection seems a little haphazard, and that is in large part because we are really shooting for things that are feasible and that we have resources and connections to maybe make happen. I will acknowledge that there isn't one obvious project for us to be throwing all our time and money at, such as the Hurricane Ridge road in Olympic NP. So, what's the point? And why the current plowing priorities, which are Twin Lakes/Skyline on 542 and the Kendall/Commonwealth TH?

Our plowing priorities are based on reducing pressure on the two most heavily accessed backcountry areas (anecdotally), which are Snoqualmie Pass and Mt. Baker. Lot 4 at Alpental and the Table Mountain/Bagley Lakes area are under huge pressure from backcountry users. These areas face the greatest potential user conflicts, present the largest issues to resorts, and also frankly just offer a crowded scene that bums everyone out. You can read flowingalpy's dispatches from the front, if you want. Steven's Pass also obviously has issues,* but to my point above has far fewer plowing-related solutions. But to make it simple: where there are too many people trying to go to the exact same place through resort infrastructure, they need to have options to spread out. Otherwise, we stand to lose access as resorts become fed up. We can either argue amongst ourselves about the theoretical legality of these losses (e.g. Crystal), or we can try and do something productive about it. Plowing is a thing we can do.

So, let's say you're not too thrilled about these plowing projects because you feel they don't represent a great way for the BC community to access anything cool. As you might have read, many people feel that the huddled masses (or just insert some insults for whatever group you don't like) should continue to plague the easy front country, while they ski their secret stash in relative peace. To that point, I would say that making access more straightforward or plowing a part of a road for parking just ups the standard. There's plenty of places to go out there (as in, millions of acres), and no one is stopping you from walking farther. The "don't blow up the spot" debate has been hashed to death. It happens every time a guidebook comes out, or someone posts a TR of a "stash," ad nauseum. If we start to lose access to places, no one will be there at the TH to check whether you are a super-rad local or not. We will simply be banned. With that said, many places that people are dreaming of getting to are low on the feasibility scale. That's not to say we will never try. It's just that it's hard and we'd rather start with some easier wins and establish good relationships so that we can then go push on agencies for bigger goals that we all might share.

We have talked about putting out a poll to folks to see what they are most interested in, which would provide the objective process you're looking for. We might still do that in some form in the future to help determine what these next steps for plowing might be.

Honestly, I think it's more transparent and fairly useful right now to just have a discussion about it. Maybe I will compile a list of ideas and shape that into a poll. I'd still like people to have space to question the premise. Plenty of people have spoken up about their priorities. What do YOU want to have plowed? Nothing? A berm in front of every skiing house in Seattle? A road to the top of Rainier? Let's hear it.

-Conrad

*If any of you have particular concerns about Stevens, feel free to message Rowan Stewart directly.
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flowing alpy
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #69 on: 01/14/18, 05:05 AM »

there are rules for parking at the source lake dog park trail head
that are not being followed nor enforced. security clean up in LoT4
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alecapone
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #70 on: 01/14/18, 07:20 AM »

Is there more then one Rowan Stewart? I just hung out with him at Stevens over new years, and he made no mention of being involved.

I have suggestions, but most are providing more day and overnight parking.
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scott
flowing alpy
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #71 on: Yesterday at 06:00:27 AM »

LoT4 paid parking should be mandatory on weekends.
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Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 08:38:41 AM »

there are rules for parking at the source lake dog park trail head
that are not being followed nor enforced. security clean up in LoT4
what does the local health authority have to say concerning this obvious health concern? What does the local water authority say?
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Heli-Free North Cascades
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 08:51:09 AM »

Hey CBA, you've already espoused on a ski areas right to close areas to uphill traffic because of safety concerns.

What data  have you seen that confirms that uphill skiers at a ski area are actually causing accidents? It's pretty obvious that the crystal Patrol doesn't want to provide that type of information. They would rather issue threats.

The Loup Loup Ski Bowl policy does not allow uphill traffic to access the ski area runs when the area is closed because of a safety concern that a groomer maybe on the hill at any time so therefore stay off.

This one's obviously a bogus safety concern and it has more to do with preserving powder that falls on days that they are closed to preserve the powder for the paying Loup customers.

But maybe you have some statistics on skiers actually being hit by groomers. I noticed that our local Methow Trails  Association has groomers out during the day when skiers are on the trails so I guess they don't think it's a problem.

Do you believe that guide Outfitters also have the right to close public land in the backcountry and side country areas because they have a permit to operate there and they may have safety concerns with the general public being in the area?

Guide Outfitters are obviously doing Avalanche control work out there. They can't help themselves because they're taking clients out on days when maybe they shouldn't be there during a storm, but they have to try and  stabilize a potentially dangerous slope. I call those offensive ski cuts.

I would say that most Backcountry skiers don't purposely trigger avalanches for control work because very often if you wait a day or two after a storm, that slope stabilizes on its own. Also purposely cutting off slides is a hazard to other skiers who may be below.

Purposely triggering off an avalanche pretty much ruins that ski line for a while because it gets filled with avy debris. Better to avoid an avalanche than purposely trigger an avalanche.

Most all of the ski cuts I do are done when I'm pretty certain the slope is not a hazard, I call those defensive ski cuts and they are done as a precaution in case my analysis is incorrect.

Isn't your agenda really about getting back country skiers away from commercial interests now that guide Outfitters are starting to do commercial side country trips and backcountry out of ski areas?

could you give us a list of your money supporters?

As a side note, your post would be easier to read on a computer screen if you used more paragraphs.



« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:21:14 AM by Heli-Free North Cascades » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
flowing alpy
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Re: Introducing Cascade Backcountry Alliance
« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 12:07:33 PM »

what does the local health authority have to say concerning this obvious health concern? What does the local water authority say?
Well that’s a good question that i’m afraid will not be answered,
concerning the most shithole parcel of land in the Alpental Valley.

to combat the poop accumulation
i’ve considered tossing em to LoT3
there are ZERO waste receptacles
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