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Author Topic: Cedar Creek Drainage  (Read 4565 times)
Mike Cheney
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Cedar Creek Drainage
« on: 03/12/17, 01:13 AM »

So what do people think about this?:

3/4/17    Cedar Creek Drainage, Washington Pass area, North Cascades, WA    

A guided group was heli-skiing and the victim triggered a large soft slab in the Cedar Creek Drainage toward the end of the day. The slope broke above the guide, who skied the slope first, sweeping him downward. The clients searched and rescued the victim who was fully buried (critical) and sustained a head injury. The avalanche was 100 meters wide with a crown depth of 60-80 cm and ran approx. 200 vertical meters. The slide released on a layer of decomposing fragments and facets above the February 15th crust.

One of the reasons why I left WA this year for March madness is I could tell months ago that this go round would be extremely unstable.

I'm really hoping that the people that I've toured w/in the past don't get caught, let alone anyone else.
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freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #1 on: 03/12/17, 11:09 AM »

I think that-

i'm extremely happy that my friend is ok.

Nch stepped up and publically reported a near-miss avy accident. I would like them to  publically release any other near-miss accidents that have occured in the past. Same with ncmg.

i would like to see every other guide outfitter on the planet also report their back log of near-miss avy incidents.

i would like to see that clients only support guide outfitters on the planet who are willing operate in an open, honest and transparent manor.

i would like clients to understand that they are hiring people to risk their lives  so that clients can obtain their mountain goals and pump up their facebook ego's.

land managers need to step up and better  manage the commercial use of public land land. extremely Hazardous areas and times should not be guided. Period. Example would be those recent tragic guide-client deaths on mt raineer.

maybe all bc travellers should have minimum certification requirements and obtain permits to travel for the season.

Here is where i see an important role for guide outfitters in training and education.

Every tour should be eductional with guides setting good examples themselves following safe practice protocols in things like group size, travel spacing, not parking in avy runout zones, not doing transciever searches in avy run out zones, safe trail placement, skiing one at a time, not putting skier pressure on other groups, not cutting off avy's above us and not using 'tiptoeing' avalanche mitigation methods.

And bc skiers, don't tag along behind a guided tour for a free ride. (i discovered that this occurs on fact finding/injury rehab tour on delancy ridge)

Nwac needs to step up with more accurate information.

If buried surface hoar is found in a tree well near a creek, that pit location needs to be reported.

If reported propagating cracks or slabs occur  on a hwy 20 road fill, that location needs to be reported. All guide-outfitter near-miss avy incidents need to be identified as such immediatly.

and finally, we all need to step up our game.

Example- kids- hucking big cliff drops not only puts you at risk miles and difficult terrain from help-but also puts your partners at risk. If you would not do it solo- why would you do it in a group?

Example, reporting observations to nwac.

Example-cover your piss piles.;-) and step away from the trail.

We've come along way and there's been a lot of conflict trying to bring these issues to light.

I'm hopeful we'll get there and guides and us old codgers will party on in peace.   

Near-miss accidents are a time of reflection and learning and giving thanks that our loved ones are ok.

Lets not let these oppurtunities pass us by because of ego or business concerns.

Everyone should be cracking the books and reading about the implications of an embedded ice crust on future avalanche formation.
« Last Edit: 03/12/17, 11:45 AM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
cumulus
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #2 on: 03/12/17, 11:39 AM »

Some good points.
Unfortunately a lot of your good points get lost to your oft pompous attitude:

i would like clients to understand that they are hiring people to risk their lives  so that clients can obtain their mountain goals and pump up their facebook ego's.

You (egotistically) claim to know why people hire guides...  Nobody can know that. God maybe... if there is one. You seem to have no problem positioning yourself as god. A rather conceited and insulting god at that... people hiring guides to "pump up their facebook ego's."

If you're serious about your stated endeavour to keep people safe nobody does a better job of undermining that than you.

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Stefan
freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #3 on: 03/12/17, 11:57 AM »

Some good points.
Unfortunately a lot of your good points get lost to your oft pompous attitude:

You (egotistically) claim to know why people hire guides...  Nobody can know that. God maybe... if there is one. You seem to have no problem positioning yourself as god. A rather conceited and insulting god at that... people hiring guides to "pump up their facebook ego's."

If you're serious about your stated endeavour to keep people safe nobody does a better job of undermining that than you.


dude- you're cracking me up. my friends too i'm sure.

''ho ho ho he he ha ha ha, see how the run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly, i'm crying'' Lennon-McCartney
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"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
cumulus
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #4 on: 03/12/17, 12:46 PM »

dude- you're cracking me up. my friends too i'm sure.

''ho ho ho he he ha ha ha, see how the run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly, i'm crying'' Lennon-McCartney

and finally, we all need to step up our game.
like Charlie Manson
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Stefan
rlsg
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #5 on: 03/12/17, 01:16 PM »

You've been carrying the water bucket pretty well..don't start putting h
oles in it.

I'm not covering up my piss...that way if i have a senior moment the yellow will hopefully keep me from steppinig in it on my next lap...sorry
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hedonaut
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #6 on: 03/12/17, 01:42 PM »


 maybe all bc travellers should have minimum certification requirements and obtain permits to travel for the season.


this is a joke, right?  antithesis of personal responsibility and spirit of exploration
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freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #7 on: 03/12/17, 01:45 PM »

like Charlie Manson

wtf- no.
more like the first line in that song. '' i am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we are all together''

the beatles were about 'love, love' love.'

That first song lyric line, reflects the concept of the 'divine in me, sees the the divine in you'.
 
Art is subject to the interpretation by those who sense it. That's the beauty of art.   

However, if you are going to personally attack me because of my opinion about how ego gratification can get people killed in the mountains (and it does), I have no choice but to find it amusing.

How would expect me to respond?  Personally attack you for you're opinion, naw.

No point in that.

I think it was you who said that  both guides and Bc skiers need to work together.

That will not happen unless old non-working concepts are torn down, and replaced with working concepts, based on true facts, like near-misses happen to guides and clients and more frequently than we are lead to believe.

Old concepts do not go away easily without a fight and i am a fighter who will push any boundray and use any trick i can to achieve that goal. Why?
Because nature is not disney land and people are needlessly dying out there, imo, because the needs of money and ego very often trump public safety. 
Like i said- near-misses are a time for reflection and learning.
« Last Edit: 03/12/17, 02:10 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #8 on: 03/12/17, 01:51 PM »

You've been carrying the water bucket pretty well..don't start putting h
oles in it.

I'm not covering up my piss...that way if i have a senior moment the yellow will hopefully keep me from steppinig in it on my next lap...sorry
that's funny. A friend of mine showed me a trick just this year. Poke a deep hole in the snow with a ski pole and have fun aiming for that hole, then cover the hole.
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freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #9 on: 03/12/17, 02:01 PM »

this is a joke, right?  antithesis of personal responsibility and spirit of exploration


that was a proposal that our last district ranger made during the 2002-3 heli-ski expansion EA process and i thought as you do.

when i  was a scuba diver in my youth, we could not buy air for our tanks without a log book and a diver certification.

maybe personal responsibility includes education.

I would exclude exploring the south pole and the amazon from that proposal and ski tourers who tour 8 miles from the nearest road and sign a no rescue waiver.

But certainly worth discussing and your point is well taken.
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"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
rlsg
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #10 on: 03/12/17, 04:20 PM »

Not gunna do it...gotta see yellow...
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cumulus
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #11 on: 03/12/17, 09:28 PM »


Manson preached love too... maybe even the beauty of art... it don't mean much sometimes.
I'll procure my avalanche education elsewhere thank you very much. Got no use for that self righteous tone.

You do make some good points. I'll be there when you're fighting the good fight. But not when you're beatin' the drum into the ground.



Mike Cheney:  I think we all make mistakes sometime.
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Stefan
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #12 on: 03/13/17, 07:02 AM »

Mike..

I think it was pretty awesome that the clients where skilled enough for a successful recovery.  Guiding is a dangerous job with a lot of responsibility, for little $$$. Work or play in a dynamic environment, eventually something will go wrong. So glad it was just a harsh learning experience. This would be the guide I would think would be the safest to get out with now. Fresh off a full burial, he'll be on his game.

But how did you "know" it was going to be unstable months away? NWAC only can predict two days out.  The layer everything is happening on didn't occur until Valentine's day. Even then, it's just highly considerable. Not judging anyone, but still plenty of safe fun riding to be had. Except for this rain thing.. overall been pretty darn good this winter.

Thanks, you stay safe too.
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scott
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #13 on: 03/13/17, 10:28 AM »

Well said Ale!  Part of the reason to hire a guide is to have them go first, especially when skiing potentially high risk terrain.  And, relying on client rescue (initially) is also factored into the calculus.  Freeski likes to insinuate that there is a coverup regarding the risk of heli skiing and guided skiing in general, but if you read their liability waiver forms, there is no whitewashing of risk. It's also worth noting that they (NCH and NCMG) have a terrific safety record, over a long operating history.  The folks that own and work at these operations are Valley locals, who as far as I can tell (largely based on the jalopy sleds they use), aren't millionaires. They're doing it for the love of the mountains, and probably the love of sharing the experience as well.  Not sure how they earned Freeski's enmity, but I'm guessing it has something to do with ignoring all of his "free advice" over the years.   
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freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #14 on: 03/14/17, 12:51 PM »

Manson preached love too... maybe even the beauty of art... it don't mean much sometimes.



i seriously doubt that. You may want to re-think your pov and how bias plays a role in people's reasoning.

if you want to debate, fine, but use your intellect to debate the points and not to personally attack the person making those points.
 
i gave your first attack some consideration in the hope that it would help, guess not.
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freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #15 on: 03/14/17, 01:30 PM »

Well said Ale!  Part of the reason to hire a guide is to have them go first, especially when skiing potentially high risk terrain.  And, relying on client rescue (initially) is also factored into the calculus.  Freeski likes to insinuate that there is a coverup regarding the risk of heli skiing and guided skiing in general, but if you read their liability waiver forms, there is no whitewashing of risk. It's also worth noting that they (NCH and NCMG) have a terrific safety record, over a long operating history.  The folks that own and work at these operations are Valley locals, who as far as I can tell (largely based on the jalopy sleds they use), aren't millionaires. They're doing it for the love of the mountains, and probably the love of sharing the experience as well.  Not sure how they earned Freeski's enmity, but I'm guessing it has something to do with ignoring all of his "free advice" over the years.   
There's no doubt both nch and ncmg have a ok safety record with only one heli-skier fatality. Not their fault, that guy died from a heart attack.

However, not sure though that all of the near-misses are on the public record and let's not forget, a friend of mine, could have been killed last year when an ncmg guide/owner, doing avy control work with a client, ski cut an avy down on my friend.

my friend insisted that report be filed.
 
and  nch (formly know as nchs) has only crashed three helicoptors under one common owner,  no fatalities. Edit,last incident reported was tail rotor hit the snow after lz snow collapsed.

but i'm not talking specifically about those companies. the industry safety record as a whole is poor and in the case of that recent eastern oregon accident,  multiple deaths and injuries in the same avy.

two deaths in heli-ski accidents in canada this year. One on feb 11, the client died in a tree well.

 Haven't read the report, but i would wonder if that group had a sweep (tailgunner) guide, which would give a guide ratio of two guides to 3 clients vs 1 to 4, however that is one less seat that can be sold to a paying client. Money over safety?

And the list keeps growing.

Have you guys ever considered that maybe you fanboys are helping to keep these issues alive on tay, by posting silly posts like the one i quoted, where bias and poor reasoning is used to poke at me.

Do you really think that nch or ncmg needs your help?

I have no choice but to respond with facts. Because this is about facts and public safety, as in, i don't want my friends avy hosed by guides above them, among other issues.

i certainly am proud of nch for stepping up by publically disclosing this  near-miss accident. That will someday be the industry standard in the interest of public safety.
« Last Edit: 03/15/17, 09:21 AM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
cumulus
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #16 on: 03/14/17, 02:24 PM »

You may want to re-think your pov and how bias plays a role in people's reasoning.

if you want to debate, fine, but use your intellect to debate the points and not to personally attack the person making those points.


You are the one stating that clients hire guides simply to pump up their egos on their facebook pages.

Maybe some of them do, just as certainly that many of them have a whole slew of other reasons for hiring a guide. For you to reduce the motivation of all guided clients down to pumping up their egos on their facebook pages is insulting... you are personally attacking all clients who hire a guide.

There's a lot of that tonality in your writings... and if your stated goal is to communicate avalanche safety, pissing off whole communities of backcountry users is not serving your purpose very well.

Maybe you don't even realize you are doing this...


As for bias playing a role in people's reasoning (in regards to safely navigating avalanche terrain), I completely agree. I never disagreed.

I think you totally misunderstood my comment, hopefully this one clears it up.


as for -
i gave your first attack some consideration in the hope that it would help, guess not.
You guessed right.

If
dude- you're cracking me up. my friends too i'm sure. 
ho ho ho he he ha ha ha, see how the run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly, i'm crying
is your idea of a considered response, there's really no need for further discussion.


_____________

Thank you Scott for your well considered response.
I too admired that the clients were skilled enough for a successful recovery.

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Stefan
freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #17 on: 03/14/17, 03:44 PM »


You are the one stating that clients hire guides simply to pump up their egos on their facebook pages.

Maybe some of them do, just as certainly that many of them have a whole slew of other reasons for hiring a guide. For you to reduce the motivation of all guided clients down to pumping up their egos on their facebook pages is insulting... you are personally attacking all clients who hire a guide.

There's a lot of that tonality in your writings... and if your stated goal is to communicate avalanche safety, pissing off whole communities of backcountry users is not serving your purpose very well.

Maybe you don't even realize you are doing this...


As for bias playing a role in people's reasoning (in regards to safely navigating avalanche terrain), I completely agree. I never disagreed.

I think you totally misunderstood my comment, hopefully this one clears it up.


as for -You guessed right.

Ifis your idea of a considered response, there's really no need for further discussion.


_____________




the consideration came on my second reply to you when it seemed like my laughter confussed you.

 And then on your next post, to say that, that crazy, sickco preached love and maybe the beauty of art, wtf. Are those the facts as you know them?
And what was your meaning behind that post?

and then to say that i pissed off whole communities of bc skiers,really?

i believe that i said people hire guides to obtain mountain goals and then the facebook ego stuff.

 And let's be real here, with blog entries and video via sat gear from the summit or south col of everest, that some poor, as in not wealthy sherpa, risked his life to carry.

As in another trip through the ice fall, where how many sherpas have died?

And you think ego doesn't drive that nonsense? And it pisses you off when i mention it does.? Wow. 

I'm saying that your bias is effecting your posts.

And we both agree that bias effects safety in the mountains.

 We know that desire can drive bias. Does ego also drive bias?

Does money effect bias?

''living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out, it doesn't matter much to me'' lennon-mccarty
« Last Edit: 03/14/17, 04:17 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
aaron_wright
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #18 on: 03/14/17, 05:26 PM »


However, not sure though that all of the near-misses are on the public record and let's not forget, a friend of mine, could have been killed last year when an ncmg guide/owner, doing avy control work with a client, ski cut an avy down on my friend.

my friend insisted that report be filed.
 
but i'm not talking specifically about those companies. the industry safety record as a whole is poor and in the case of that recent eastern oregon accident,  multiple deaths and injuries in the same avy.

A couple questions if you don't mind, why was your friend hanging out in a slide path and was he visible to the guide above him? Have you ever done a ski cut in the bc?

"that recent eastern oregon accident", do you mean the Cornucopia Peak avalanche with the guided group from WAH? The fatalities and burials occurred because some of the guests didn't follow the lead guide's directions if I recall.
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freeski
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #19 on: 03/14/17, 06:22 PM »

A couple questions if you don't mind, why was your friend hanging out in a slide path and was he visible to the guide above him? Have you ever done a ski cut in the bc?

"that recent eastern oregon accident", do you mean the Cornucopia Peak avalanche with the guided group from WAH? The fatalities and burials occurred because some of the guests didn't follow the lead guide's directions if I recall.


could you post a link to that report?

The one i talking about, the report said that they were skiing avy terrain at something like 8 to 10 second intervals, which placed multiple people in the path at the same time. It was unknown how the slab was triggered because the last client and guide were killed.

so you expect that inexperienced people will be able to tell exactly where they should or should not turn?

 And to understand the risk of not doing so?

 And what were they doing in terrain that requires such exact turn placement near a avy path that is primed to go?

to answer your question about last years avy.

My friend was on his own skin track entering his own bowl area. This is known to be our approach skin track though the only old growth trees in that area.

Once up the hairpin valley, the route passes up through the old growth and and onto a bench under that  slide path for less than 5 minutes of breaking trail time. With a broken trail the exposure time to that path is about 1 minute.   

the guide was in another rib-bowl area to the south-east,which is accessed via the major slide path at the head of the hairpin valley. The presumption is that the guide group was heading into the area that my friend was in.

[My friend stated that he had observed a  fresh d3 in a nearby ne bowl.]

My friend saw the guide  on the rib and yelled up to the guide prior to the ski cut but to no avail.

The guide ski cut the avy path above my friend, and my friend dove under the approaching wave of snow, similar to a surfer heading out into waves.

That move saved him from being sweep down off of the bench he was on and down way steeper rock and small treed terrain with the descending debris pile.

The guide moved down the rib to the next ski line avy path and my friend once again yelled up for the guide to stay put.

The guide ski cut that path and it also slide but did not hit my friend.



Yes, i do ski cuts and i rarely get anything to move. I call those defensive cuts, ie, i cut when i don't think it will move.

i term offensive cuts as ski cuts that are done when you are fairly certain that the snow will avalanche.

 It's rare that i find myself out in those conditions in places
that require offensive ski cuts.

offensive cuts ruin the snow for skiing, better to wait and let it stablize.

most of the cuts i do that slide occur in the spring to 2'' to 3'' of new snow that's getting solar gain.

corrections welcome, i'm telling a story that was told to me by my friend. 
« Last Edit: 03/14/17, 06:47 PM by freeski » Logged

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cumulus
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #20 on: 03/14/17, 08:40 PM »

And you think ego doesn't drive that nonsense? And it pisses you off when i mention it does.? Wow. 

I'm saying that your bias is effecting your posts.

I have no interest in being trolled. You keep putting words in my mouth and ascribing emotions that I simply do not feel. And then insinuating that I have a bias.

I've got no horse in this race.  I've never hired a guide and I'm not on Facebook. I've never said that ego and bias have no role in decision making.  And yet you keep insisting that I do.

The only point I'm making (from my first post to this one) is that it is bizarre to me that you continually alienate whole groups of backcountry travelers while stating that your goal is to communicate avalanche safety.

Seems to me you and your message would be a lot more effective if you win people over instead of alienating them.


I get that's not something you want to hear, so go ahead and make up whatever strawman diversions you want and have at it...
I'm outta here.


« Last Edit: 03/14/17, 08:46 PM by cumulus » Logged

Stefan
cumulus
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #21 on: 03/15/17, 09:50 AM »

I'm outta here.

well, almost   Smiley

I shouldn't really need to be explaining this since in this day and age anyone can quickly type "Charlie Manson Beatles" in their search engine and get a quick rundown, but you seemed genuinely confused so...

in regards to my "like Charlie Manson" reply to your "...ho ho ho he he ha ha ha, see how the run like pigs from a gun..." comment, it's the first thing that flashed across my mind when I read your response. Charlie was infamous for quoting Beatles lyrics to suit his own ends.
Knee Jerk Americana... sorry, you walked right into that one. Good to know your history as you like to say.



apologies Mike, for thread deflection
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Stefan
Eric Johnson
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #22 on: 03/16/17, 06:11 AM »

The above comments on guides in avalanche terrain remind me of a story from John Roskelley's Stories Off The Wall regarding his friend Kim Momb, who was one of the first to successfully ascend the Kangshung Face on Everest, and who Roskelley had a huge amount of respect for, as a climber and as a person.

"Kim Momb worked as a heli-ski guide during the winter months in the Interior Ranges of British Columbia.  The Interior Ranges had a lot of snow that year--more than usual.  But what bothered me was a recent change in the weather.  It was warm and drizzling.  The current weather and the preceeding weeks of snow accumulation matched the conditions several years earlier when Willi Unsoeld was buried by an avalanche and killed on Mount Rainier.

As Momb and I walked in the rain toward our cars, I said good-bye. 'Give me a call next time you're in town, Kim.  And be careful.  Avalanche conditions should be terrible this week.'

Momb died two days later.  He and two clients, one who also died, were swept into the trees by a slab avalanche while skiing a remote mountain slope in British Columbia."

Guides aren't perfect, and can exercise bad judgment just like anyone else.  It's up to the individual to be educated and make the go/no go call for themselves based on the available evidence.

And these discussions would be a lot more valuable if people on this site refrained from engaging in pissing matches and personal attacks, and stuck to the relevant facts.



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Mike Cheney
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Re: Cedar Creek Drainage
« Reply #23 on: 03/16/17, 08:23 PM »

1st of all I wrote this late at night (2am+ AKST) after reading the NWAC accident reports from 5 Feb to 5 March... late at night - somewhat reacting to what I read. I wasn't trying to call anyone or organization out ... really I was fishing for information...

Mike..

I think it was pretty awesome that the clients where skilled enough for a successful recovery.  Guiding is a dangerous job with a lot of responsibility, for little $$$. Work or play in a dynamic environment, eventually something will go wrong. So glad it was just a harsh learning experience. This would be the guide I would think would be the safest to get out with now. Fresh off a full burial, he'll be on his game.

But how did you "know" it was going to be unstable months away? NWAC only can predict two days out.  The layer everything is happening on didn't occur until Valentine's day. Even then, it's just highly considerable. Not judging anyone, but still plenty of safe fun riding to be had. Except for this rain thing.. overall been pretty darn good this winter.

Thanks, you stay safe too.

I have had some guide experience from NCMG... I have a lot of respect for them... They are great guides and have taught some of my friends lots of skills and taken them on tours they are pretty happy with. I think it's great that the clients had the skills to do a rescue - could very well be that they taught the rescuers Avy 1+

As far as me "...know..." ing about this season. I didn't... nobody knows the future. My crystal ball is foggy.

In an unscientific manner I viewed the way the snow came down this year... maritime snow over continental then crusts then more continental then maritime, upside down, right side up, at times... then I started focusing on other plans that would take me out of the area. I've been fortunate to ride out of the area a lot the prior 3 winters... I get back in the spring and notice things about who's touring where, I notice things about people that I've been touring with...

Imho it seems like there are way more people in the last 5 years headed out relying on airbags & magic boxes, with the supposition that gear will save them and less analyzing the terrain and conditions in the moment...

I don't want to be caught in a slide triggered by people like this (it happened in-bounds in the S back at Crystal to a friend last year - people didn't even notice what they did - they buried him)... I really don't want to trigger a slide on anyone else, ever.


Guides aren't perfect, and can exercise bad judgment just like anyone else.  It's up to the individual to be educated and make the go/no go call for themselves based on the available evidence.

And these discussions would be a lot more valuable if people on this site refrained from engaging in pissing matches and personal attacks, and stuck to the relevant facts.


I like the story Eric relayed - it's totally applicable to this situation.

I also like what I quoted from Eric above... total truth... that's it.



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A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop.
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