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Author Topic: Clarify Post  (Read 29516 times)
freeski
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Clarify Post
« on: 03/08/17, 08:56 AM »

I went to clairify my last post on my thread about the 'Nch heli-guide ok' and found that my thread was locked, so changes cannot be made.

I in no way ment to imply that either nch or ncmg are in violation of federal law or that ncmg is trashing the enviornment.

Those comments were made in reference to the nch tree cutting incidents, where only the nch pilot was issued a warning ticket, by usfs law enforcement. Also, the enviornmental damage was done to our sacred white bark pine trees.

At the time of those incidents, ncmg was guiding out of it's permit area and the fs corrected that situation.

I was also referring to a heli-ski company in alaska where a guide was killed while the company was operating out of it's permit area and the incident was not reported to the land manager in a timely manor and that company was fined.

The reference to the industry for not disclosing, publically, all near-miss accidents is known within the industry and at least one regional avy center is addressing that issue.

The reference to some guide companies not disclosing out of country mountain deaths comes from alan arnette's blog where he reports one client death while on two seperate guided trips that were not disclosed publically.

Please know that i am not implying that any one stop using the services of any guide company, just understand that any client needs to understand the actual risk.

My shoulder chip is with the Forest Service  for not successfully mitigating conflict (safety, social and enviornmental) between the local heli-operation and human powered ski touring groups.

It is my hope that the USFS-OIG will offer a solution and resolve the issue of what i believe was a botched handling of the tree cutting incident by our local fs and a botched 2003 EA.

We were lead to believe that fs law enforcement was going to investigate the multiple tree cutting sites found after the first one was reported by local bc skiers. That is a decision that is made by the district ranger and that did not happen. This has created more conflict. 

I  know that it is the hope of every bc skiers  in my area that we can peacefully co-exist and resolve these issues.

Further more i believe that nch accuratly reported the incident to nwac, where the information was then filtered to the public.

The pain that i feel is real for my friend who almost died in that horrific avalanche and for what? 
« Last Edit: 03/08/17, 09:51 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
KLW
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #1 on: 03/09/17, 09:52 AM »

As a regular reader and occasional poster on TAY I find the fact that the new management has decided to silence your opinions on Heliskiing in your local area extremely disappointing. Nothing derogatory or inflammatory was posted yet they've decided to silence the discussion. Because...?

That they're allowing Billk's childish, personal attack to stand while stifling the discussion of an issue that directly affects skiers speaks volumes about their attitudes towards managing the conversation around here.


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David_Lowry
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #2 on: 03/09/17, 10:22 AM »

I appreciate freeski's posts. I've thought the moderation here has always been on the heavy side, and the conversation overly polite but it isn't my site and there are other sites to let 'er rip. Made me wonder last night why PNWbrit(banned) was banned. Went looking for old posts but lost interest after finding nothing.
« Last Edit: 03/09/17, 10:27 AM by David_Lowry » Logged
mosetick
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #3 on: 03/09/17, 02:26 PM »

That they're allowing Billk's childish, personal attack to stand while stifling the discussion of an issue that directly affects skiers speaks volumes about their attitudes towards managing the conversation around here.

There are no managers here "managing" conversation. Only un-paid volunteers, who donate their time. The expectation is that people will be civil with each other as much as possible. There is no intent of stifling. A topic that has been covered, has been covered. I do not like censorship, and locking a topic that has been "covered" is a healthy alternative.

I appreciate freeski's posts. I've thought the moderation here has always been on the heavy side, and the conversation overly polite but it isn't my site and there are other sites to let 'er rip. Made me wonder last night why PNWbrit(banned) was banned. Went looking for old posts but lost interest after finding nothing.

I'm not aware of this banning, and do not know the entire history of every member and every post. If you are concerned about something, please write me directly at chris@turns-all-year.com
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Scotsman
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #4 on: 03/09/17, 03:55 PM »


I'm not aware of this banning, and do not know the entire history of every member and every post. If you are concerned about something, please write me directly at chris@turns-all-year.com

PNWBrit( Banned) is my BFF and powder brother. I will act as his surrogate, his Kellyanne Conway no less.
My official statement on this issue is.

" PNWBrit was banned for being very snarky about some tourists avalanche protocol and became involved in a dispute with Marcus where accusations of hypocrisy was directed to each of them by each other. He was then banned for life. Being English( a miserable race , full of self -loathing  disguised by weak chins and stiff upper lips), his innate level of snarkiness and highly developed uber-sarcasm was too advanced for the PC inhabitants of TAY. He  is extremely proud of his banning and reminds us remaining users of the TAY site  that know him, that we are inferior as we have not yet been banned like him. He would never rejoin even if given a full acquittal as he considers all of the TAYers ( Including me, his BFF  Sad) as gaiter loving, hyper PC, self righteous clowns."

Thank You.
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AlpineRose
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #5 on: 03/09/17, 04:28 PM »

I personally appreciate the information freeski posts.  He seems very knowledgeable about Methow Valley bc conditions, has provided valuable information, and is certainly passionate about issues.  In fact, I hope he one day writes a backcountry ski guide to the WA Pass area.  This would make it easier to poach his favorite lines.  Cheesy Cheesy However....his tendency to de-rail some threads by posting and re-posting about his preferred topics increases the potential for moderator involvement (i.e. locking a thread).     
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mosetick
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #6 on: 03/09/17, 04:34 PM »

gaiter loving

gaiter loving... Solid. Gold. Line of the year!
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gravitymk
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #7 on: 03/09/17, 06:20 PM »

My official statement on this issue is.

" PNWBrit was banned for being very snarky about some tourists avalanche protocol and became involved in a dispute with Marcus where accusations of hypocrisy was directed to each of them by each other. He was then banned for life. Being English( a miserable race , full of self -loathing  disguised by weak chins and stiff upper lips), his innate level of snarkiness and highly developed uber-sarcasm was too advanced for the PC inhabitants of TAY. He  is extremely proud of his banning and reminds us remaining users of the TAY site  that know him, that we are inferior as we have not yet been banned like him. He would never rejoin even if given a full acquittal as he considers all of the TAYers ( Including me, his BFF  Sad) as gaiter loving, hyper PC, self righteous clowns."

Thank You.


Beer through nose...
Thanks for that.
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KLW
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #8 on: 03/09/17, 06:45 PM »

There are no managers here "managing" conversation. Only un-paid volunteers, who donate their time. The expectation is that people will be civil with each other as much as possible. There is no intent of stifling. A topic that has been covered, has been covered. I do not like censorship, and locking a topic that has been "covered" is a healthy alternative.



First off, give me a break with the "un-paid" bullshit. No one cares that you volunteered to manage the website and now wish that you were being paid for it. Secondly, the only people being uncivil in Freeski's previous heliskiing post were the ass hats that were suggesting it would be cool to shoot bc skiers from a helicopter.

For someone not interested in stifling or censoring the conversation you sure seem quick to lock threads. It's your site now. We just read it and contribute ALL the content. Maybe people will hang around for the flashy graphics and the slick user interface after you decide that only certain topics are allowed to be brought up around here? Good luck!
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kolockum
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #9 on: 03/09/17, 07:31 PM »

Everybody knows there is a thing between you and NCH. Not saying right or wrong.

I was very surprised when your last post was locked. With out a doubt it was going to be a "hot" or controversial topic but it was still very civil.

Most of the time it is kept very civil and to the point. The only real time I have had an issue was in the "Uphill policy in Ski areas" thread. Your later comments got to be outside the topic and away from where the conversation was going. I would say start a new topic next time but we saw the admins reaction to that...

Didn't TAY switch hands? Blame it on new less experienced owners? I don't know.

We were lead to believe that fs law enforcement was going to investigate the multiple tree cutting sites found after the first one was reported by local bc skiers. That is a decision that is made by the district ranger and that did not happen. This has created more conflict. 
This really pisses me off also.
 
USFS Law Enforcement does not answer to the District Ranger, they have their own chain of command that ultimately answers to a Chief in DC. The District Ranger can ask for certain things to be investigated and request emphasis patrols for certain things (ie boundary infringements, illegal structures, mining, etc.) but ultimately they do not have the final say; ESPECIALLY on what does and doesn't get prosecuted. The LE staff are so short handed that there may only be 1 LE ranger responsible to patrol several ranger districts and thus they rely a lot on District Rangers and district staff to forward any important information to them.

If you have a serious permit violation go straight to the LE Ranger. There is a non-LE employee that deals with permits and permit violations, and only if he/she thinks it is important enough, does it get sent over to the LE. I have been astounded what has been let slide and contacted the local LE Ranger only to find that the incident was never forwarded to him.
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Live Hard and Die Old
glenn_b
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #10 on: 03/09/17, 08:07 PM »

I don't have a dog in freeski's WA Pass safety fight but I do mourn anytime the mods step in to silence an opinion. I didn't follow the thread that got PNW Brit banned but what did he say that was so over the top?  I'd love to see a link.

We're talking about BC skiing, sometimes a matter of life and death.  We're mostly big girls and boys.  We should be able to weather an honest give and take about our issues, however pithy it gets.
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river59
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #11 on: 03/09/17, 08:43 PM »

I really don't get this locking threads tactic. Take a look at the March 4 Busy Day thread over in weak layers. NWAC chimes in, so... "that topic has been covered"...

Seems to me that a good discussion was being had regarding a serious topic. One of the busiest days for accidents this season in the PNW, but nothing more should be added to the conversation?
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mosetick
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #12 on: 03/09/17, 09:23 PM »

First off, give me a break with the "un-paid" bullshit. No one cares that you volunteered to manage the website and now wish that you were being paid for it.

Your logic is flawed. I never asked or "wished" to be paid for anything related to the site. However, I do enjoy pointing out obvious facts. And the fact that the moderators and admins are not paid is one that all should be considerate of. If you personally do not care, that is fine. But please don't tell everyone it's "bullshit" when people donate their time to, as you put it, manage, other people's conversations on the web.

Would you be interested in being a un-paid moderator? Seems like you read a lot of the posts here, and you may be a good fit?

I never promised flashy graphics and slick user interface. Though they would be nice things to have around here. Maybe if folks stayed on topic more often, the moderators and admins would have more time to work on flashy graphics and slick user interfaces? Something to consider?

There are several people that wrote to me directly indicating that they were not happy with the recent threads. I did not have strong opinions about the threads, so I did not chime in or say why I was locking the threads.

TAY is a community resource, and now a few people have indicated that they are unhappy with a couple threads that have been locked.

I'm happy to unlock the threads.
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KLW
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #13 on: 03/09/17, 09:39 PM »

Welcome to the internet.
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natefred
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #14 on: 03/10/17, 08:36 AM »

First off, give me a break with the "un-paid" bullshit. No one cares that you volunteered to manage the website and now wish that you were being paid for it.
/quote]

I care and appreciate that the site is here, thanks to the volunteers who run it as best they can. I think we owe it to them to not allow running the site to become a thankless chore for which they are rewarded with rude remarks.

I don't care about flashy graphics and I don't think the mods need to debate with anyone about why they choose to lock a thread, time being a precious commodity.

I like having a place to chatter with other BC skiers. Thank you for your part in providing that Chris.
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gravitymk
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #15 on: 03/10/17, 09:00 AM »

There are several people that wrote to me directly indicating that they were not happy with the recent threads. I did not have strong opinions about the threads, so I did not chime in or say why I was locking the threads.

TAY is a community resource, and now a few people have indicated that they are unhappy with a couple threads that have been locked.

I'm happy to unlock the threads.

First - props for the effort and interest in keeping this place going, it's a valuable resource to the ski community at large and, who knows, with more and more people participating in this activity (ski touring) perhaps there is a larger roll to play in the future.

I think it would be easier for you, if you just accept up front that you can't make everyone happy (all the time).

It aggravates me a little that "several people" PM you to complain and that becomes the mandate for moderation. Let them speak publicly...

IMO - if you start to moderate on the basis of a few regular complainers or personal bias you will loose some of your audience, you will limit diversity in discussion and sharing of view points. Just because an opinion or view runs counter to your own (meant for everyone - not just the OP) doesn’t mean that it should be shut down.

Moderation has it's place, especially if conversations degrade in to threats, or personal attacks along several lines that might or might not involve bigotry and hate. Let's not have it be about limiting dialog or diversity of ideas please.

Freeski has his own agenda - it's clear from his posts, and that's OK - He is entitled to that. Most that are here frequently enough to recognize that (or even care) can choose to ignore him (or not). My personal beef isn't with his view or what he has to say, it has to do with the thread drift that it starts. As a resource its better when you don't have to wade through a bunch of posts that are off topic when absorbing information relating to the OP. So, to the OP - thanks for starting a dedicated thread and, sorry for the thread drift.
« Last Edit: 03/10/17, 09:26 AM by gravitymk » Logged
freeski
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #16 on: 03/10/17, 01:01 PM »

I personally appreciate the information freeski posts.  He seems very knowledgeable about Methow Valley bc conditions, has provided valuable information, and is certainly passionate about issues.  In fact, I hope he one day writes a backcountry ski guide to the WA Pass area.  This would make it easier to poach his favorite lines.  Cheesy Cheesy However....his tendency to de-rail some threads by posting and re-posting about his preferred topics increases the potential for moderator involvement (i.e. locking a thread).     

Thanks for the kind remarks Rose.

It's already easy to poach my favorite lines, i've shown them to a lot of people. The unexpected benefit to an old guy like me, is that as those lines get shown around, skin tracts get broken up them and i can sleep in, have a extra latte and then go out and   poach those trails.

 A guide book can map out where to go but not when it's safe to do so.

We had an out of town tour group up here in cutthroat basin who went up to a south open face to a ridge that every local i know avoids, especially during recent loading events and with near by south stuff going big on the previous day.

Either that group was extremely  knowledgeable or had very little knowledge, but i do get concerned when i see a Gopro strapped to an old guys head. ;-) 

Also, i'd be a carpet bagger if i derived profit (money or ego stroking) off of other people's previous discovery or routes I've explored with friends. So no guide book  or trip report gps maps from me.
« Last Edit: 03/10/17, 01:11 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
flowing alpy
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #17 on: 03/10/17, 07:37 PM »


do the TAY mods wanna follow me around TGR one day?
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wickstad
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #18 on: 03/10/17, 07:52 PM »

do the TAY mods wanna follow me around TGR one day?

You're benign and don't tend to make sense.
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freeski
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #19 on: 03/10/17, 09:26 PM »

PNWBrit( Banned) is my BFF and powder brother. I will act as his surrogate, his Kellyanne Conway no less.
My official statement on this issue is.

" PNWBrit was banned for being very snarky about some tourists avalanche protocol and became involved in a dispute with Marcus where accusations of hypocrisy was directed to each of them by each other. He was then banned for life. Being English( a miserable race , full of self -loathing  disguised by weak chins and stiff upper lips), his innate level of snarkiness and highly developed uber-sarcasm was too advanced for the PC inhabitants of TAY. He  is extremely proud of his banning and reminds us remaining users of the TAY site  that know him, that we are inferior as we have not yet been banned like him. He would never rejoin even if given a full acquittal as he considers all of the TAYers ( Including me, his BFF  Sad) as gaiter loving, hyper PC, self righteous clowns."

Thank You.



Wait. Using sarcasm, the lowest form of comedy, would certainly qualify as a reason for a life time ban on any forum except maybe TGR. How certain are you of the facts here? I wasn't around then.
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two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
flowing alpy
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #20 on: 03/11/17, 06:27 AM »

You're benign and don't tend to make sense.
Word! But my offer to trade mod jobs for a day still stands;-)
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Griff
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #21 on: 03/11/17, 08:42 AM »

Well this might be the most ADD thread here in a long time.

But that post about PNWBrit is too damn funny.

I really don't get why anyone gets worked up about anyone's weird posts. I have heard that a lot lately. That TAYers are ____________ (arrogant, opinionated, gaiter wearing). Who f'in cares. Just like the world, there are cool people and there are idiots, with everything in between.

And that's not me being the PC TAYer. I like the lively discussion, and enjoyed sparring with Scotsman about Crystal drivers. FWIW - it actually had an affect on me, and now I actually have tried to let go the pain I feel when I see the crazies that try and get up to the mountains in unsafe vehicles.............they just probably don't have a choice and just want to experience what I am deeply passionate about. Who I am to judge?? Still scares the shit out of me tho.

Finally, flowing's words always make sense if you read between the lines............
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Jim Oker
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #22 on: 03/11/17, 10:27 AM »

Moderation is an interesting problem. I'm still tagged as "moderator" here in the system, but haven't been in any discussions with mosetick or anyone he may be working with on how to handle things now (and I still receive the "flag to moderator mails, but didn't see the one freeski said he recently sent fwiw), so I don't know how his approach may have shifted from work under the prior site sitter.

But what I can share is that it's clear from both the  public and private messages we received while I was pitching in on request from Marcus that the person above who said you  can't keep everyone happy is quite correct. No big shock there I'm sure. But to put a finer point on it, there are people who will bail from the site if it becomes too [insert your most or least favored pole here]. Some people will participate if the discussion remains fairly civil (as I think it almost always was even  w/o moderation wayyy back in a prior century here), but will bail if people start attacking each other and the like. But if the site is moderated toward that direction, some will leave or not come because it's too  fuddy-duddy-gaiter-wearing or whatever critique they'd apply to such a site. You can say "buck up grow a spine and come and deal with it" but that's just not what everyone will do. And losing  participating  members is a loss to the community, IMO.

I'll also add that it was frustrating over the past few years to have had to get into  discussions among Marcus and the  other  mods and Marcus' pro  bono lawyer to have to figure out how to  handle a few situations that were brewing partly  in public and partly in PMs sent to Marcus and/or the mods. I think it's safe to  say this is NO ONE'S favorite way to spend time. So my hope is that y'all will understand that this site is a labor of passion and a  gift to  the community, and will  try to help ease the load for the person who got suckered into  running it for now. No one should wear it as a badge of honor that they repeatedly generate extra work for mosetick and the mods via controversial posts (and regardless of  how they may react to a post, other  members may send them messages which must be read and thought about at minimum, such as has happened for a few recent posts).

It will now be up to mosetick to manage which loss to try to avoid. I for one thank him for stepping up to keep things moving here.

And no, I don't care to follow a TGR mod around for a day :-)
« Last Edit: 03/11/17, 10:41 AM by Jim Oker » Logged
wickstad
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Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #23 on: 03/11/17, 02:53 PM »

Word! But my offer to trade mod jobs for a day still stands;-)

Ah.  Now I get it.
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matmaster
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Posts: 13


Re: Clarify Post
« Reply #24 on: 03/12/17, 08:24 AM »

I've had good results using a little nordic kick-wax for long flats.

---
Moderators note:
I can't figure out how to move this to the other thread current thread about skins.
« Last Edit: 03/12/17, 07:29 PM by mosetick » Logged
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