telemark skiingbackcountry skiingPacific NorthwestWashington and Oregonweather linksThe Yuki AwardsMt. Rainier and Mt. Adams
Turns All Year
www.turns-all-year.com
  Help | Search | Login | Register
Turns All Year Trip Reports
Backcountry Skiing and Snowboarding

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
05/29/17, 04:33 AM

Solar Halo over Tahoma
on TAY home page
 
Trip Reports Sponsor
Pro Guiding Service
Pro Guiding Service
Turns All Year Trip Reports
(1) Viewing these pages constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use.
(2) Disclaimer: the accuracy of information here is unknown, use at your own risk.
(3) Trip Report monthly boards: only actual trip report starts a new thread.
(4) Keep it civil and constructive - that is the norm here.
 
FOAC Snow
Info Exchange


NWAC Avalanche
Forecast
+  Turns All Year Trip Reports
|-+  Hot Air
| |-+  Random Tracks: posts that don't fit elsewhere
| | |-+  Ski areas limiting access to terrain
:
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]  All | Go Down Print
Author Topic: Ski areas limiting access to terrain  (Read 8060 times)
snoqpass
Member
Offline

Posts: 269


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #25 on: 02/10/17, 10:13 AM »

Well crap.
I didn't get the memo/fax/email/tweet/snapchat on this shit.
Where does one get said badge?
Do i have to take a class?
Is there a test?
Did they hand it out after the level 1 and I missed?
Does it come with perks?
https://www.mountaineers.org/membership/badges/course-badges/backcountry-skiing-course
Logged
pipedream
Member
Offline

Posts: 595


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #26 on: 02/10/17, 11:45 AM »

Logged

Moral of story is don't ski when you can snowboard
freeski
Member
Offline

Posts: 529


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #27 on: 02/10/17, 12:36 PM »

I think it's a stretch to classify ski cutting as true avalanche mitigation. I'd say control work is defined as stressing the snowpack via means outside of what is available to the common person (e.g. skiing, hiking and dropping cornii). Of which, NCH does none.

But you keep digging at that chip on your shoulder... the rest of us are watching in anticipation
sorry, ski cuts are avy mitigation.

1. That ncmg guide ski, who almost killed my friend) cut a slope that he did not have to ski. That guided group was in an area known as 'hidden bowl'. 

2. That avy slope had a high probability of avalanche on that day. The observations of the day would have been:
A. the reported fresh D3 in terrain very close to the ski cut avalanche terrain area. There may have been indictions that the larger avalanche released lower wind roll terrain features.
B. New snow loading, wind that favored that elevation and indications of slab formation.
C. Aspect that favors wind loading on a 35-40 degree convex roll, with continued 35 degree slope.
D. Historal skier trigger slope,
 

3. That slope is above the only route into 'pica bowl' that offers the least exposure to high consequence avalanche.

My friend was skinning on his own track into 'pica bowl via Old growth 'pete's' trees. Well known to be local bc skiers route. That track is exposed to that avy path for less than 5 minutes of skinning and does not natural often.

4. According to the 2003 EA, which governs the special use permit, cornice drops and ski cuts are the avy mitigation methods that guides use in my area. They are not allowed to use bombs. Many of their ski cuts are  visiable after a new storm.

5. What chip are you refering too.

6. The north cascade are the largest lift served ski area in the state, where active avy control work is allowed to take place above ski tour groups.

7. The reason that  you make so many assumpsons concerning these issues is due to bias.
Have you done your homework?, ie read all the related documents? I have.

Have you interacted with the forert service? Have you witnessed the growth of heli operations for the last 30 or so years in my area? I have.

I started bc skiing the area during the spring 81 ski season. Several years before we let a very small, low impact heli ski operation, operate on the public land here.

Did you witness those unauthorized old growth white bark cut sites. I did.

8.Maybe you need to come ski with us.   
« Last Edit: 02/28/17, 08:50 AM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
gravitymk
Member
Offline

Posts: 484


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #28 on: 02/10/17, 01:52 PM »

5. What chip are you refering too. 

He's referring to the bone that you keep picking with NCH out of your own obvious, personal self interest.

Also, way off point with the OP.
Apples and oranges.


Logged
snoqpass
Member
Offline

Posts: 269


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #29 on: 02/10/17, 03:03 PM »

sorry, ski cuts are avy mitigation.

1. That ncmg guide ski, who almost killed my friend) cut a slope that he did not have to ski. That guided group was in an area known as 'hidden bowl'. 

2. That avy slope had a high probability of avalanche on that day. The observations of the day would have been:
A. the reported fresh D3 in terrain very close to the ski cut avalanche terrain area. There may have been indictions that the larger avalanche released lower wind roll terrain features.
B. New snow loading, wind that favored that elevation and indications of slab formation.
C. Aspect that favors wind loading on a 35-40 degree convex roll, with continued 35 degree slope.
D. Historal skier trigger slope,
 

3. That slope is above the only route into 'pica bowl' that offers the least exposure to high consequence avalanche.

My friend was skinning on his own track into 'pica bowl via Old growth 'pete's' trees. Well known to be local bc skiers route. That track is exposed to that avy path for less than 5 minutes of skinning and does not natural often.

4. According to the 2003 EA, which governs the special use permit, cornice drops and ski cuts are the avy mitigation methods that guides use in my area. They are not allowed to use bombs. Many of their ski cuts are  visiable after a new storm.

5. What chip are you refering too.

6. The north cascade are the largest lift served ski area in the state, where active avy control work is allowed to take place above ski tour groups.

7. The reason that  you make so many assumpsons concerning these issues is due to bias.
Have you done your homework?, ie read all the related documents? I have.

Have you interacted with the forert service? Have you witnessed the growth of heli operations for the last 30 or so years in my area? I have.

I started bc skiing the area during the 79-80 ski season. Several years before we let a very small, low impact heli ski operation, operate on the public land here.

Did you witness those unauthorized old growth white bark cut sites. I did.

8.Maybe you need to come ski with us.   
Let me get this straight, you tour on a high avalanche hazard day with D3 slides coming down and you blame others for putting you at risk?
Logged
pipedream
Member
Offline

Posts: 595


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #30 on: 02/10/17, 03:44 PM »

8.Maybe you need to come ski with us.   

I'd happily take you up on a sled ride to the hairpin from the end of the road in Mazama during the winter - I'll let you know the next time I'm over there when there's snow on the ground Wink
Logged

Moral of story is don't ski when you can snowboard
Scotsman
Member
Offline

Posts: 3388


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #31 on: 02/10/17, 07:16 PM »


Lol... no idea there really ARE badges issued by the Mounties... hilarious.
Thanks for the link.

I want one now.
One for each gaiter!
Logged

Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
Crystal Whore
" Scotsman may be correct"....Mikerolfs
Scotsman
Member
Offline

Posts: 3388


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #32 on: 02/10/17, 07:43 PM »

So it's not ok to skin up a ski run during avy control work (i agree).

However,  it's still not ok to skin up a run when there's no avy control work going on, but it's ok to spend $1200 for heli-skiing and have your guide doing ski cut avy control work above touring skiers in our historical terrain.

 Is it the money that determines what's right?

You buy a lift ticket so you are right at the ski areas, and you buy a heli ride so you are right where i live and tour?

It's hard to believe that someone skinning up a run is viewed any different than a skier who resting and standing on a run.

Common sense says do both on the edge of the run.

You money guys want it all to yourselves and want me to pay for plowing the highway so you can get to the ski area.

 Powder to the highest bidder. Didn't your moma teach you to share?

My moma's dead...!  Died of cancer a few years ago.
Powder is there for rich and poor that's the beauty of the mountain and heli-skiing is not exclusively for the rich...many save for it all year or have a day every few years or go heli-touring to cut down on the cost.
And if you can justify 3 clowns touring up the middle of one the busiest  intermediate runs in the whole state on a Saturday then you are just being silly and argumentative for arguments sake.

I have always admired your avalanche knowledge and the obvious love you have for skiing but when you use every single post to bring up your vendetta about the NCH guides and NCH operations and then deny you have a chip on your shoulder about them...... somebodies in denial!!!! 

You did some good work bringing some of the tree-cutting issues and permit issues to the front and I admit that although a supporter of NCH and the services they provide, I was troubled by them.

We get that you have an issue with them but your constant ,at times contrived posts about their perceived safety infractions lead most of us to believe that its mainly about the fact that you have to share the powder with them and their guests.

I understand some of the concerns with regards heli-skiing and personally think the heli-skiing opposition in the Wasatch is appropriate due to the smallness of that range and the amount of non-motorized users in a small area.
In Valdez, I've toured with the lunatic Matt Kinney whose almost pathological hatred of the heli-skiing operations at Thompson Pass has led to assault charges and undermined any goodwill most of us have towards his opinion.

I've toured with many of the guides up there at NCH and spent a few nights in the yurt talking with them about the various issues ... and you. They are fine human beings and have a deep respect for the safety of everybody... of that I am convinced.

You're beginning to sound like Kinney.
« Last Edit: 02/10/17, 08:33 PM by Scotsman » Logged

Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
Crystal Whore
" Scotsman may be correct"....Mikerolfs
freeski
Member
Offline

Posts: 529


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #33 on: 02/10/17, 08:17 PM »

I'd happily take you up on a sled ride to the hairpin from the end of the road in Mazama during the winter - I'll let you know the next time I'm over there when there's snow on the ground Wink
Right on. 
Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
Robie
Member
Offline

Posts: 1332


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #34 on: 02/10/17, 08:35 PM »

I have a ski touring badge .    Crossed torn menicus 's over a three pin binding.                               
Logged

"I bought my rope at Walmart ,my gloves at costco but paid dearly for my dynafits"
Apparant Moderator of what sucks
blackdog102395
Member
Offline

Posts: 298


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #35 on: 02/10/17, 08:46 PM »

The number of topics with similar issues and themes this season is interesting.  It's not hard to understand.  An increase in users is creating conflict over access, etiquette, safety, and responsibility.  This is not going to change.  Those that play in areas with low hanging fruit are going to have to figure it out or someone is going to figure it out for you.  Others will likely take my approach which is to avoid the low hanging fruit all together on the days when it's most likely to be picked.  I think the latter strategy is the safe bet, as there are too many users all with competing agendas who have very little chance of working it all out. 
Logged
freeski
Member
Offline

Posts: 529


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #36 on: 02/10/17, 08:48 PM »

My moma's dead...!  Died of cancer a few years ago.
Powder is there for rich and poor that's the beauty of the mountain and heli-skiing is not exclusively for the rich...many save for it all year or have a day every few years or go heli-touring to cut down on the cost.
And if you can justify 3 clowns touring up the middle of one the busiest  intermediate runs in the whole state on a Saturday then you are just being silly and argumentative for arguments sake.

I have always admired your avalanche knowledge and the obvious love you have for skiing but when you use every single post the bring up your vendetta about the NCH guides and NCH operations and then deny you have a chip on your shoulder about them...... somebodies in denial!!!! 

You did some good work bringing some of the tree-cutting issues and permit issues to the front and I admit that although a supporter of NCH and the services they provide, I was troubled by them.

We get that you have an issue with them but your constant ,at times contrived posts about their perceived safety infractions lead most of us to believe that its mainly about the fact that you have to share the powder with them and their guests.

I understand some of the concerns with regards heli-skiing and personally think the heli-skiing opposition in the Wasatch is appropriate due to the smallness of that range and the amount of non-motorized users in a small area.
In Valdez, I've toured with the lunatic Matt Kinney whose almost pathological hatred of the heli-skiing operations at Thompson Pass has led to assault charges and undermined any goodwill most of us have towards his opinion.

You're beginning to sound like Kinney.

Wow, that's some big fish I landed.

We don't share the powder with the heli, it's more like your noble scotsmen analogy where the noblemen of times past get first crack at your new wife on your wedding day.

That's V for vendatta. Yea, right, poor logic on your part, subjective thinking.

Sorry to hear that your mom died from cancer, same here.

That part of the speil is a derivitive from your famous and funny, 'facebook it to your moma'' line, but you don't seem to like it when the shoes on the other foot.

Yelling at people from the chair because they are skinning up a run, really, and i'm the one who has a vendatta problem?

Someday i'll tell you the story about the guy who tried to kill me, my wife and a bunch of other people. I wound up risking my life to save his. 

'' you seekers of the truth accepting that reasons will relive and breath and hope and chase and love for you and you and you'' J. Anderson

peace out bro.
Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
freeski
Member
Offline

Posts: 529


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #37 on: 02/10/17, 09:39 PM »

Let me get this straight, you tour on a high avalanche hazard day with D3 slides coming down and you blame others for putting you at risk?
I was home on that day and cancelled a tour. It was a friend of mine that got hosed by that guide.

 But yea, i do tour  on high hazard days but i don't think in terms of the avy center danger rating scale.

I think in terms of the probability that any terrain that i'm going for, or on,
will avalanche or hit from above or tree bombed or rock fall or icy slip or tree well falls or collision with a tree, etc, hopefully based upon objective thinking. 

   

 I can except the risk of
nature, but not the risk from foolish men.

« Last Edit: 02/10/17, 09:43 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
wickstad
Member
Offline

Posts: 367


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #38 on: 02/14/17, 07:49 PM »

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=37877.0  Found this in the February BBC trip reports.
Logged
Stügie
5Member
Offline

Posts: 14


Re: Ski areas limiting access to terrain
« Reply #39 on: 02/19/17, 07:17 PM »

Its got nothing to do with greed or Crystal trying to increase revenue...it's just common fucking sense.
Nearly all the the patrollers and management at Crystal are avid ski tourers themselves.

Pretty easy.

Amen brother.  Just like a similar thread (http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=37877.0 ) it's been pretty well-stated and agreed that with the exponential growth of ski touring as an option, education is lacking...in some cases quite severely. 

How exactly is the average ski tourer supposed to get to this terrain?  Most of us can't go heli skiing all winter.  Nor do we have snowmobiles - and the trailers and big rigs and the storage space they require.  As well, most of us are not macho supermen that can get to the more remote places in the winter.

The number of bc skiers is expanding, access is diminishing, do the math.      

I find this statement saddening.  There are PLENTY of ski touring options, away from resort access, that don't require being a "macho superman".  It seems that with the rapid growth of ski/snowboard touring, motivation and creativity (not access) is diminishing year after year.
Logged

"The mountains are not stadiums where I satisfy my ambitions to achieve; they are cathedrals, where I go to practice my religion."  -Anatoli Boukreev
Pages: 1 [2]  All | Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Thank you to our sponsors!
click to visit our sponsor: Feathered Friends
Feathered Friends
click to visit our sponsor: Marmot Mountain Works
Marmot Mountain Works
click to visit our sponsor: Second Ascent
Second Ascent
click to visit our sponsor: American Alpine Institute
American Alpine Institute
click to visit our sponsor: Pro Guiding Service
Pro Guiding Service
Contact turns-all-year.com

Turns All Year Trip Reports ©2001-2010 Turns All Year LLC. All Rights Reserved

The opinions expressed in posts are those of the poster and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions of Trip Reports administrators or Turns All Year LLC


Turns All Year Trip Reports | Powered by SMF 1.0.6.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.