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Author Topic: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps  (Read 19598 times)
Good2Go
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #75 on: 01/26/17, 06:21 PM »

You repeatedly keep missing my point.  It's never been about getting more people to enjoy that slope as you seem to think.  It's about minimizing your exposure while in/around avy terrain.  I can't say that any clearer; I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand.

Also, successful outcomes don't justify bad decisions.  In your case they seem to reinforce them.  Seems like you can't understand this either.  

Markharf's right.  I have no idea how to communicate with people that think a legitimate public safety concern is "obnoxious".  

If anyone considers the Bagley Lakes basin to be in the same league as Baud et al.'s ski mountaineering terrain where the "climb before you ski" mentality is used, well, no matter how "extreme" you want to be there's nothing in the area like the Gervasutti Couloir.  Hans probably should have climbed that one first.  RIP.  Pretty much everything in the basin can be safely assessed from unexposed test slopes.  On that note, I'm still waiting for Good2Go to describe the technique of assessing that slope from below like he/she prefers.  

In other news, my ski partner and I skied from the top of Little AK 2x today.  We took a line from the top of Table to the lake and walked out via Grandma's (and picked up a bunch of beer cans and trash from a jump that some snowboarders had made), around the countless zig-zags (I realize that there are plenty of folks that seem to think it's ok, but does each party really have to make their own skin track?  That's doubling/tripling/quadrupling down on the ridiculousness) all over the majority of that slope, and back up the road for round two.  Easy peasy, no exposure, great snow.  

Edit:  Good2Go, if nothing else, I challenge you to listen to the first three episodes of the Slide podcast and then objectively (if you can) think about this skintrack.  Doug Krause is a snow safety expert with decades of experience and in addition to being a super smart guy that we can all learn from, I guarantee he's crushed more untracked pow than you.  Bud.  

Ha!  You keep missing MY point:  It's not "lucky" if you made the correct stability/safety assessment. And, if you accurately determine it's stable, then you do not need to apply additional avy mitigation measures. Why is that so hard to understand?  If it's stable, it doesn't matter if people ski in on you.  Just like the ski area. You keep suggesting it wasn't stable, without any actual proof.  Regardless, I promise to never put a track there, in deference to your authority, Officer Hop.
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Good2Go
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #76 on: 01/26/17, 06:34 PM »

Another point I think Good2Go is missing (and that is probably contributing to his irritation) is that it's not about judging this group's decision making or the outcome on a particular day, it's about what is likely to happen if people continue the habit. If one, two, or a bunch of people do get buried on a skin track there some day, EVERYONE (well, I can't really speak for everyone I guess) is going to say how stupid, tragic, and easily avoidable it was.

For one I appreciate hop's willingness to speak up and to be respectful about it.

With the growing numbers out there, there ought to be some standard protocol in these high traffic areas regarding folks skiing down on top of others who are camped out, dilly dallying, farming corn/powder/slush. My take is that I can expect people to come down on top of me anytime they like, it's my responsibility not to be below stuff I think might get me. And you never know when or where people are going to come out of the woodwork. But what the heck do you do if you climb a ridge, look into your line that you want to ski cut the top of before dropping in, and see nine people in a conga line down there? Let your conscience be your guide..

Saying things like "people getting away with stupid choices" is hardly being respectful IMO.  And, this is not a platform for broad avy education. It's somebody's TR. The OP wanted to share their joyful (and by all accounts totally safe) experience, and instead they got a stern talking to by Officer Hop.  I doubt we'll be seeing any more TRs from Pierce on here.
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hop
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #77 on: 01/26/17, 07:34 PM »

Hop,

Most of the big Alpine routes were skied in summer or early-fall conditions where there was no issue with winter snowpack. The primary reason to climb the routes was assess problems with ice and rock.



Exactly.  Which is another reason why the "climb before you ski" mentality doesn't really apply to this area in mid-winter. 
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hop
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #78 on: 01/26/17, 07:43 PM »

Saying things like "people getting away with stupid choices" is hardly being respectful IMO.  And, this is not a platform for broad avy education. It's somebody's TR. The OP wanted to share their joyful (and by all accounts totally safe) experience, and instead they got a stern talking to by Officer Hop.  I doubt we'll be seeing any more TRs from Pierce on here.

Why can't a TR that shows questionable practices also be a platform for broad avy education? 

Would you prefer this thread?  Apparently it was too offensive for some but the message is the same. 

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=33188.0
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Gregg_C
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #79 on: 01/26/17, 08:08 PM »

After skiing in the Baker backcountry for four decades I notice an interesting trend.  Every 5-7 years a new group of skiers come along and rename all the runs and act as if they were the first ones to access Table Mountain.  All it would take is a trip into the Heather Meadows lodge to view the photos from the 1930's to show skiers ripping up the north side of Table to change their opinion.  I was out on the day in question and saw the up track and joked about the coming TAY diatribe from the so knowledgeable  new up and comers.  Looked like a great place to ski and I salute the folks for putting in a lovely skin track to access the goods.  I have done the same many times in the past. 

Long live the Seattle Skin Track!!!!
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saltydog
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #80 on: 01/26/17, 09:17 PM »

 Cheesy
After skiing in the Baker backcountry for four decades I notice an interesting trend.  Every 5-7 years a new group of skiers come along and rename all the runs and act as if they were the first ones to access Table Mountain.  All it would take is a trip into the Heather Meadows lodge to view the photos from the 1930's to show skiers ripping up the north side of Table to change their opinion.  I was out on the day in question and saw the up track and joked about the coming TAY diatribe from the so knowledgeable  new up and comers.  Looked like a great place to ski and I salute the folks for putting in a lovely skin track to access the goods.  I have done the same many times in the past. 

Long live the Seattle Skin Track!!!!

hahahahaha.... gawd. yes. this bc stuff is not safety guaranteed... the pnw is all safety safety safety... blah blah blah... case in point. bike helmet law in seattle.. wtf. it's part of the culture here. and i know coming from other parts. look at those numbers, they are tabulated and you can see. look up how many rides bike share nyc.. not a SINGLE fatality. not one. and yet seattle mandates with a fine for no helmet. you are better off wearing a helmet as a pedestrian or travel via car.... sorry digress. but pnw is obsessed. i take my own risks... and own my body.
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blackdog102395
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #81 on: 01/26/17, 09:20 PM »

We should start a pool prior to the season giving the over/under on the days before the following topics are discussed in multiple page threads:

1) Snowshoeing in the skin track
2) High risk tolerance vs. ignorance
3) The proper way to access/ski the most popular regions
4) Don't out my "secret" stash

These topics will continue to be discussed year after year.  This will never change.  I am certain.  Spending some time contemplating as to why this is the case may possibly be a better use of time than beating this dead horse for another 4 pages.

Accessing an area in the safest way possible makes sense the majority of the time.  However, some people either don't care or are ignorant in such matters.  This is not going to change.  Feel free to offer advice, but don't for a second believe anyone is obligated to listen.  Places like Bagley Lakes and Pea Gravel Ridge are a no go for me at this point in my touring career.  I am fully capable of getting myself into enough trouble without the help of others.  I want to spend my time focusing on my decision making and not worrying about the decision making of others.  As with most TAY classic diatribes, the answer is simply to go farther and further.
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Randy
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #82 on: 01/26/17, 09:26 PM »

The other higher risk choice the OP made I observed in their video was the choice to basically ski together on the decent.   If the slope had failed -- they would have both been caught up.  

Seems like both the up track choice or the choice to ski together might reflect ignorance or a high degree of confidence in the stability of the snowpack.  

Since the OP hasn't responded to this thread -- perhaps they haven't checked back or they know that there isn't much they can say.  
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hop
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #83 on: 01/26/17, 09:44 PM »

After skiing in the Baker backcountry for four decades I notice an interesting trend.  Every 5-7 years a new group of skiers come along and rename all the runs and act as if they were the first ones to access Table Mountain.  All it would take is a trip into the Heather Meadows lodge to view the photos from the 1930's to show skiers ripping up the north side of Table to change their opinion.  I was out on the day in question and saw the up track and joked about the coming TAY diatribe from the so knowledgeable  new up and comers.  Looked like a great place to ski and I salute the folks for putting in a lovely skin track to access the goods.  I have done the same many times in the past. 

Long live the Seattle Skin Track!!!!

I've been in the area half as long as you so I've seen 3-4 of your new generation of folks show up after me.  In that time I've noticed a few things, but one relevant thing is that there's been a huge increase in backcountry users.  Again, I have no problem with this because hey, it's a great spot with easy access.  Most of the new folks that I've met after I showed up have been respectful and eager to learn; I don't know who you've encountered that acted otherwise.  

While you may have been able to do whatever you wanted back in the day, there's no getting around the fact that with increased users comes increased responsibility.  You're not by yourself out there anymore and others may be affected by your actions.  Adapt or die, or kill someone else.  If you're insisting that you can just do what you want without regard to the others you may be affecting I'd say that you're the disrespectful one, not the newbies.  

Cheesy
hahahahaha.... gawd. yes. this bc stuff is not safety guaranteed... the pnw is all safety safety safety... blah blah blah... case in point. bike helmet law in seattle.. wtf. it's part of the culture here. and i know coming from other parts. look at those numbers, they are tabulated and you can see. look up how many rides bike share nyc.. not a SINGLE fatality. not one. and yet seattle mandates with a fine for no helmet. you are better off wearing a helmet as a pedestrian or travel via car.... sorry digress. but pnw is obsessed. i take my own risks... and own my body.

You can do whatever you want if you're the only one that's going to be affected.  The second you start doing stuff that may affect others, then others get a say in what you're doing.  You want a free-for-all?  Go skiing in Russia or somewhere else where nobody cares what you do.  

Question for you Seattle Skintrackers: If you get taken out from above while you're on the Seattle Skintrack, is the upper party at fault or are you?  
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Skier of the Hood
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #84 on: 01/26/17, 09:49 PM »

The immediate terrain around Table is small when compared to Connaught at Rogers Pass. As anyone who has visited recently can tell you shits wild and it is only a matter of time until Strathcona repeats itself however this time the avalanche will be human triggered. Homies dropping cornices into STS have a hard time missing when the congo line going up Connaught is 150 strong, and you have the uninitiated trying to boot up or lap the fan. Actions in crowded areas have consequences. Is it the homies dropping cornices into STS's fault that they sluffed out the people booting up the chute that they couldn't see? How about if they bury the congo line? Or what about people causing slides on any of the numerous paths that cross the Connaught skin track. These discussions happen among tribes and inform their members actions, but a greater community discussion about what is acceptable behavior may bring greater consensus. As hard as it may be for any diverse group, let alone a group that mostly communicates anonymously over the interwebs, to agree on any subject.
« Last Edit: 01/26/17, 10:16 PM by Skier of the Hood » Logged

"As we all know, the true driving force behind every early morning wake up is not necessarily safety, but the overpowering drive to be sitting on a patio by 1 pm, intoxicated, and spraying loudly about the morning's adventure."

-Andrew Wexler 2011
hop
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #85 on: 01/26/17, 09:56 PM »

Ha!  You keep missing MY point:  It's not "lucky" if you made the correct stability/safety assessment. And, if you accurately determine it's stable, then you do not need to apply additional avy mitigation measures. Why is that so hard to understand?  If it's stable, it doesn't matter if people ski in on you.  Just like the ski area. You keep suggesting it wasn't stable, without any actual proof.  Regardless, I promise to never put a track there, in deference to your authority, Officer Hop.

Just because you got away with something doesn't mean it was a smart decision.  Read that again so it sinks in. 

But don't take it from me. Listen to the first three episodes of Slide and learn something from an actual expert, not Officer Hop (sic).  Or don't; since you're never putting that skin track in again (for whatever reason) I'm not worried about you anymore. 
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saltydog
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #86 on: 01/26/17, 10:31 PM »

that.s the great thing about it... no rules. only your own rules. you can chose not to be there if it looks like trouble....
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hop
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #87 on: 01/26/17, 10:45 PM »

that.s the great thing about it... no rules. only your own rules. you can chose not to be there if it looks like trouble....

You might wish you were somewhere else, but you're not going anywhere if you're stuck on that skintrack heading up when someone or something happens and the slope rips on you and your party of nine. 

So I guess you're with Good2Go and Gregg_C and are ok with your fate if that happens.  Better hope your assessments are 100% spot on, including the more complex start zones above you that you haven't seen because you started from the bottom. 
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saltydog
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #88 on: 01/26/17, 10:50 PM »

You might wish you were somewhere else, but you're not going anywhere if you're stuck on that skintrack heading up when someone or something happens and the slope rips on you and your party of nine. 

So I guess you're with Good2Go and Gregg_C and are ok with your fate if that happens.  Better hope your assessments are 100% spot on, including the more complex start zones above you that you haven't seen because you started from the bottom. 

agreed! my fate is in my hands. i have no control over others actions or behaviors... (although that would be nice.) i've turned around a few times.
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Chamois
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #89 on: 01/27/17, 09:22 AM »

It's impossible to change some bad snow behavior.  Once I suggested some snowshoers away from the steeper slopes climbers left of Pan Face in poor avy conditions - they said they would just tuck and roll.

Personally - I would not put in that track because it seems in a bad place, there are safer and more aesthetic approaches, and it acts as magnet for other skiers.  But - that's me.  I agree with the idea of ski community safety - but this tread can go on a long time with no resolution.  It is the interwebs after all.
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chuck
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #90 on: 01/27/17, 10:56 AM »

My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out and anchors on my feet. Even if this means going the long way around to my desired point of entry.
#2 Avoid  a close stacked Z track wherever possible or keep them to a minimum. Spacing is important on a skin track and in a stacked Z, impossible to achieve. The people above or below you are still in danger. On a stacked Z you can be 500 ft apart but the person above is still directly above you and both of you are in the slide path.
#3 Avoid or minimize skintrack steepness. Steep skintracks are tiring and inherently more difficult  and can cause bunching especially with groups of mixed experience.
#4 Avoid or minimize kick turns... Ditto point #3. My wife can contort her body at yoga but she can't do a nice kick turn to save her life( yet)
#5 Try and not set a skin track where skiers can come from above.
#6 Conserve good slopes.... don't set a skin track up a good slope.

This is a solid contribution to the conversation, thanks! Its like the podcast hop recommends earlier.

This season, snow safety expert Doug Krause started an excellent Avalanche podcast https://soundcloud.com/user-660921194 that covers all sorts of things from terrain and route choices, snowpack, communication, brain traps, etc.

Listening to this throughout the season has kick-started my avy thinking into high gear and prompted me to look back on my previous patterns in an objective manner. 

None of it is new info to most of us but hearing it laid out in another’s words helps it sink in.
 
Defense in depth is a security concept that is applicable to bc travel. The idea is that multiple layers of controls are placed in the system to provide redundancy in the event of a failure. In other words, don’t put all your eggs in one basket and be able to handle a couple mistakes and still achieve your goals.

Most bc travelers focus on a route plan, the avy report and local observations as they travel. This is a fine first layer, but it is not enough. One day the report will be wrong for the location, your estimation of stability will be incorrect, conditions will change throughout the day or someone will do something terrible above you. When that happens its good to have stacked a few more layers of security in your plan.

In this thread we are talking about minimizing time exposed to danger by selecting the best, safest up-track. There are lots of other layers to add such as:
  • navigation skills & tools
  • first aid kit & ability to apply it
  • emergency response plan
  • beacon, shovel, probe
  • air bags
  • communicate your trip plan
  • descending and ascending skill
  • extra gear to survive a night out
  • extra parts & tools to repair your kit
  • healthy group communication
  • discipline to handle fear and keep steady
  • discipline to turn around
  • and the list goes on…

Most days these extra layers go unused, taking up space in your pack and mind. If you want to keep at it for years and not hang your survival on luck then you need to add layers of security to your ritual.
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rlsg
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #91 on: 01/27/17, 11:23 AM »

 I hope you see the possible wind transport issues for the clues...pits on undicator slopes that often are tucked under cornices while hucking said cornices and not be a

ble to see folks hidden below rolls who mtight be transitioning out.  When seeing crazy tracks and jumps...that screams sidecountrt to me.....farther furth@er....
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blackdog102395
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #92 on: 01/28/17, 12:18 PM »

The immediate terrain around Table is small when compared to Connaught at Rogers Pass. As anyone who has visited recently can tell you shits wild and it is only a matter of time until Strathcona repeats itself however this time the avalanche will be human triggered. Homies dropping cornices into STS have a hard time missing when the congo line going up Connaught is 150 strong, and you have the uninitiated trying to boot up or lap the fan. Actions in crowded areas have consequences. Is it the homies dropping cornices into STS's fault that they sluffed out the people booting up the chute that they couldn't see? How about if they bury the congo line? Or what about people causing slides on any of the numerous paths that cross the Connaught skin track. These discussions happen among tribes and inform their members actions, but a greater community discussion about what is acceptable behavior may bring greater consensus. As hard as it may be for any diverse group, let alone a group that mostly communicates anonymously over the interwebs, to agree on any subject.

Yep.  Spent four days at the pass last week with two being in the Connaught drainage.  8812 Bowl is another good example.  Their were 4 parties accessing the bowl on the last day of our trip including ourselves.  A party of two and ourselves decided to go lookers left, up through the rock band and on to Bruins Pass.  Another party of two decided to go straight up the gut of the bowl.  Yet another party accessed from Bruins Ridge. We all reached the pass within 15 minutes of each other.   We were the first party to descend with no one approaching from the bottom at the time.  However, we did not know that given the sight lines on the descent. It was mid week with not a ton of people out.  If it were a weekend or a little bit different timing, people certainly would have been descending when people were ascending.  People were continuing up the valley to Balu pass when we were descending.  So what's the right answer here?  It seems unreasonable for everyone to access 8812 bowl via Bruins Ridge.  Even if they did, people would still be traveling up the valley floor.  Don't even get me started about the Mousetrap and accessing the Asulkan valley.  

We have hit the point of no return.  There will be more and more competition for low hanging fruit.  In the busiest areas people are going to descend while people are ascending.  My only answer for this is to move farther out.  We may have not have had this problem if we went at least to Video Peak, but this was no guarantee, as this has become a "regular" tour as well.  Short winter days don't always provide a lot of opportunity for getting "out there."

As an aside, STS had a good sized cornice.  I can only imagine what would happen if that thing cut loose.
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AlpineRose
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #93 on: 01/28/17, 01:25 PM »

This is a very good discussion on the crowding issue.  A couple of heuristics are operating very strongly here:  scarcity, and the idea that if others are doing it, it must be safe (don't recall the official term for the latter). 

Increased bc crowding in popular or easy to reach areas is here to stay.  So IMO it adds another important consideration - along with everything else (weather, snowpack, temperature, precip, winds, terrain selection, etc.) which should be included as part of standard safe/safer bc protocol:  on the uphill, consider folks may be dropping in above you;  on the downhill, consider folks may be below you.  Like all other aspects of the protocol, you do what you can to mitigate risk to yourself and others.  Understand you'll never reach 100% safety.

As well, crowd management protocol should be added to bc/avy instruction. 

That uptrack in the photo?  Personally, I'd never use it.  That's just me.
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~Link~
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #94 on: 01/28/17, 07:05 PM »

Well stated. This was the mountainering ethos when i started climbing up to ski down.

I read a lot of climbing stories and those early climbers had no problems with talking about their mistakes or the mistakes of fellow climbers.

btw, the use of 'shame' is considered to a morally exceptable practice to engage in when used to try to correct behavior that has the potential to put others at increased risk of harm. It equates to tough love.

Well said.  I've been cringing far too often lately, watching the bc explode with inexperienced folks, evident by such unsafe climbing routes/selection, and/or naive descents. 

I read a thread very recently from that same area that erupted into an argument about bc etiquette.  I think etiquette and safety just about work hand-in-hand in the bc, for sure.  I really appreciate the objectivity exercised by folks in this thread.  It's not anything to be taken lightly.  Safety, pow conservation are good-neighbor practices. 

I spent years on this web site before investing in a splitboard, and then luckily got in with some great TAY all-stars and lurkers who were great examples skill and knowledge. But that's my own conation, I suppose. Before the bc, it was years of getting my riding strong/dialed before going beyond the ropes, and many hours of reading threads and studying snow science, all put forth in action as I practice this love of finding good snow and majestic terrain.  I can only encourage people to do the same but sadly, you see otherwise out there. 
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blackdog102395
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #95 on: 01/28/17, 10:40 PM »

Well said.  I've been cringing far too often lately, watching the bc explode with inexperienced folks, evident by such unsafe climbing routes/selection, and/or naive descents. 

I read a thread very recently from that same area that erupted into an argument about bc etiquette.  I think etiquette and safety just about work hand-in-hand in the bc, for sure.  I really appreciate the objectivity exercised by folks in this thread.  It's not anything to be taken lightly.  Safety, pow conservation are good-neighbor practices. 

I spent years on this web site before investing in a splitboard, and then luckily got in with some great TAY all-stars and lurkers who were great examples skill and knowledge. But that's my own conation, I suppose. Before the bc, it was years of getting my riding strong/dialed before going beyond the ropes, and many hours of reading threads and studying snow science, all put forth in action as I practice this love of finding good snow and majestic terrain.  I can only encourage people to do the same but sadly, you see otherwise out there. 

I disagree.  While etiquette and safety are tangentially related because they both impact shared users, for me they should be separate topics clearly delineated as such.  I think it's dangerous to confuse the two and would advocate strongly for their separation in discussions such as these.  Ascents and descents land squarely in the realm of safety.  It is much more important that we have meaningful discussion in these areas in an attempt to educate and gain something resembling consensus.  In contrast, etiquette is more about "playing nice" and considering other users experience outside of those related to safety.  I'll talk all day about whether the skin track in the OP is safe, but I have little tolerance for someone telling me where I can turn in an effort to conserve resources or preserve someone's perfectly sculpted turns.   Let's not confuse the two.  One topic is about keeping people alive.  The other is about the effects ones use has on the qualitative experience of others (e.g. snowshoeing in the skin track).  I understand that this is not an either/or situation.  We can discuss both, but I think talk of etiquette is a dangerous distraction in safety discussions.
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flowing alpy
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #96 on: 01/29/17, 05:03 AM »

bc etiquette enforcers are badly needed on the I-90 corridor.
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alecapone
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #97 on: 01/29/17, 08:42 AM »

The thought process I try and abide by when setting a skin track is based upon the "Best Practices" protocol that we use at work to avoid killing people when engaged in complex construction work.

My personal Best Practices for skin track setting is as follows.
#1 Set the skin track in the safest place possible because I feel vulnerable with skins on, toes locked out and anchors on my feet. Even if this means going the long way around to my desired point of entry.
#2 Avoid  a close stacked Z track wherever possible or keep them to a minimum. Spacing is important on a skin track and in a stacked Z, impossible to achieve. The people above or below you are still in danger. On a stacked Z you can be 500 ft apart but the person above is still directly above you and both of you are in the slide path.
#3 Avoid or minimize sKintrack steepness. Steep skintracks are tiring and inherently more difficult  and can cause bunching especially with groups of mixed experience.
#4 Avoid or minimize kick turns... Ditto point #3. My wife can contort her body at yoga but she can't do a nice kick turn to save her life( yet)
#5 Try and not set a skin track where skiers can come from above.
#6 Conserve good slopes.... don't set a skin track up a good slope.

Those a mine, your's may be different.
I try to check every box above with my skin tracks.
When I look at the photo... I can't in all honesty tick any box.

As hop and z-bo have said... not trying to flame or troll.... just trying to cut down on your learning curve so you can continue to enjoy life and post lots of future trip reports.


Just trying to make sure this hits every page.

#7 don't expose yourself to the actions of others.

People just add another level of unpredictability. I try not to put myself in them situations in most cases in life. Work, driving BC skiing.



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scott
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #98 on: 01/29/17, 10:34 AM »

Just trying to make sure this hits every page.

#7 don't expose yourself to the actions of others.

People just add another level of unpredictability. I try not to put myself in them situations in most cases in life. Work, driving BC skiing.

Always a calculated risk...just like rock climbing/alpinism..


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hop
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #99 on: 01/29/17, 05:36 PM »

I would say that anyone dropping that line from the top still has the responsibility to ensure that they are not placing anyone below them at risk of harm.

I'm sure that you would not risk someone's life just because the party below is not acting according to best practice safety protocols.

why don't you ask the local land management to close that line to uphill travel. Sounds like the professionals at the baker ski patrol would back you up concerning the risks.

Hop, you have correctly identified an area and a problem that has public safey concerns.

I commend you for your efforts and don't worry  about the folks who do not even want to have the conversation, call you names or otherwise express their ignorance.

Their behavior reflects their charactor, not yours. But i know you this, for you are indeed a person of fine charactor and courage.

Thank you for the support. 

I personally haven't come around the horn and encountered a party skinning up that area in a long time, mainly because I don't go there that often anymore and if I do, I try to get in and out of there before it gets all stuffed up.  I do recall being super pissed the last time - many years ago - my party got to the top and realized there were a couple handfuls of people skinning all over that area.  I recall a much more vocal member of my party yelled down to the group that we were really bummed about people were skinning up the slope and got a bunch of blank stares in return.  My party had a discussion and skied on top of them, one at a time, and then left the area.  Nowadays if that happened I'd probably just be super pissed and ski somewhere else without skiing on top of the offending parties because I'm far more uncomfortable skiing on top of other people now, but who knows - it sounds like everyone here that admits to skinning up that slope is also ok with being dropped in on and therefore assumes the risk.   Roll Eyes 

While I agree that safety and etiquette are mostly separate subjects and should probably be discussed as such, this is one area where the safety/etiquette lines blur; not only are the uptrackers exhibiting unsafe BC travel practices, they're also selfishly occupying a limited resource and forcing other users to either go somewhere else or make potentially catastrophic decisions in order to "share" the resource.  To me the safety issue is by far the larger issue. 

The last thing I, or anyone, wants is to get land managers involved.  I'd like to think that the BC population can be self-managing but maybe that's overly naive of me in this day and age.  Won't stop me from trying though. 

« Last Edit: 01/29/17, 05:40 PM by hop » Logged

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