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11/24/17, 01:33 AM

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Author Topic: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps  (Read 18019 times)
Good2Go
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #125 on: 01/31/17, 07:08 PM »

Ha!  Any way you can work in "participation trophy" into those lyrics? 
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Scotsman
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #126 on: 01/31/17, 07:25 PM »

Ha!  Any way you can work in "participation trophy" into those lyrics? 

Thanks for the feedback.... I'll try.

I'm a Millennial and I don't care, I'll put my skintrack anywhere,
the old codgers keep saying that skintrack setting is an art practiced by few,
but the participation trophy I got from my Mom says that's not true.
Huh?
Not feeling it... but at least I tried.
« Last Edit: 01/31/17, 08:01 PM by Scotsman » Logged

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blackdog102395
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #127 on: 01/31/17, 08:09 PM »

 

In the end you need to make an appropriate decision FOR YOURSELF and stop stressing over your inability to control the decisions others will make.     Basically get up 45 minutes earlier and get the hell out of Bagely Lakes Basin.



While discussions like this can have positive outcomes on peoples' future decisions and justify the effort, the above quote is the only reasonable conclusion.  This thing could go on for 30 more pages and we could rehash the same arguments with the occasional bit of enlightenment thrown in and I would still arrive at dberdinka's conclusion and take it up a notch.  Don't go to Bagley Lakes, especially on the weekend with fresh snow and good visibility.   Again, I can get into plenty of trouble all by myself.  I don't need help from others.  Backcountry risk assessment is difficult enough without having to factor in the behavior of other users. Throw in a fellow codger yelling at me about my slightly imperfect turns brushing the bottom of his supple S turns and I'll be the guy a few ridges over. 
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bigeo
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #128 on: 01/31/17, 08:51 PM »

So glad to see the humor of this thread rise to the top at long last. For awhile, I thought I was the only one laughing. Nothing left of this dead horse to flog. Move along.
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hillybilly
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #129 on: 01/31/17, 11:48 PM »

While discussions like this can have positive outcomes on peoples' future decisions and justify the effort, the above quote is the only reasonable conclusion.  This thing could go on for 30 more pages and we could rehash the same arguments with the occasional bit of enlightenment thrown in and I would still arrive at dberdinka's conclusion and take it up a notch.  Don't go to Bagley Lakes, especially on the weekend with fresh snow and good visibility.   Again, I can get into plenty of trouble all by myself.  I don't need help from others.  Backcountry risk assessment is difficult enough without having to factor in the behavior of other users. Throw in a fellow codger yelling at me about my slightly imperfect turns brushing the bottom of his supple S turns and I'll be the guy a few ridges over. 

Best comment in the whole thread. I've been watching these kinds of TAY discussions for years and believe it is a key factor in discouraging specific types of participation. So many assumptions made about the OP. So much virtue signalling and pontificating. So much assertions over what is "safe", "dangerous" or what exactly is in an aiare level 1 course and how black and white these "rules" all of the sudden are.

You are responsible for yourself. If you encounter someone making a bad decisions that may put you or your party at risk I advise going another route. You don't need to march up to them and lecture them on the side of the mountain and you don't need to come vehemently fuming on TAY in an effort to virtue signal. Proving to yourself and the world how much more experienced you think you are in the BC.

Besides given the area it is like complaining about snowshoers walking to Snow Lake without beacon/shovel/probe. Stupid? Yes but you won't stop them. Don't like it? Get further out!
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hillybilly
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #130 on: 01/31/17, 11:58 PM »

There's a reason why some of us old codgers are still codgering, after hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds or so tours.

Maybe the op will share the snow profile and test results in the start zones that day with all of us. Maybe it was just to dangerous to top out from the bowl that day, don't know.

And we know that a snow profile on that slope won't represent the wind slab concern near the complex convex at the top of the slope which, I believe, was the detailed forecast by NWAC that day. A snow pit is but one single data point that should be used in a collection of data points for one's decisions making process.

Quote
i am puzzled (us codger get puzzled from time to time) as to why the professionals at the baker patrol don't recommend people putting in skin tracks in avy terrain, when that terrain can be avoided? 

Well old cogger you probably know that any skiable slope is "avy terrain". The only way to avoid it is to not ski. Smiley
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freeski
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #131 on: 02/03/17, 07:32 AM »

And we know that a snow profile on that slope won't represent the wind slab concern near the complex convex at the top of the slope which, I believe, was the detailed forecast by NWAC that day. A snow pit is but one single data point that should be used in a collection of data points for one's decisions making process.

Well old cogger you probably know that any skiable slope is "avy terrain". The only way to avoid it is to not ski. Smiley
My point that you quoted was one that hop made about the baker pro patrol not recommending that skin tracks be placed in that bowl considering that a way less exposed route exists to the top, where an ongoing stabilty assessment can be conducted in relative safety.

I contrasted that to the opinion that a commercial avy instructor made here (at least i think he ''teaches''). The avy instructor applauded the more risky route in a popular area that will likely have people above you in avalanche start zones.

What does that say about our current state of the guiding and teaching industry?

Does it say money talks, so yes we will take your large group into avy terrain on dangeous days and do our best to keep your group alive while we igor best practice safety protocol.

just look at the industry record of client and guide multiple burials, injury and deaths.

Guide Ken Wiley, out with his large guided group, had multiple deaths and he survived a deep 30 minute burial. He waited two years after his personal liability timed out, got his full cert guide prize, and wrote a book called 'buried' and blamed his boss.

It was ken's decision to go up a slope that had people above him (his bosses group) on a dangerous day and the result was tragic. Is someone who makes these bad choices, that get people killed really qualified to continue guiding or 'teaching'?

The industry says yes, let's make 'em a full cert guide. The industry makes a lot of money training guides.

And the avy instructor here basically says, yea, go for it, hooray for making bad choices, hooray for the 'seattle skin track'.

We humans are great at filtering out information when it does not support our desire.

'' a man hears what he wants to hear and disreguards the rest'' simon and garfunkel
« Last Edit: 02/03/17, 08:29 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
skykilo
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WWW
Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #132 on: 02/03/17, 02:44 PM »

This thread is apparently so important that it ate the two February trip reports. 

Edit: they are there when I look but only when logged in.  Buddy couldn't see it from link.  Oh well.
« Last Edit: 02/03/17, 02:50 PM by skykilo » Logged
rlsg
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #133 on: 02/03/17, 03:52 PM »

Better than Jerry Springer ...which is really good!
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sconey
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #134 on: 02/04/17, 08:13 AM »

Now is the winter of our bliss and content
Made inglorious summer by this din of snork
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wickstad
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #135 on: 02/04/17, 08:44 PM »

Zig zags and big bags.
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freeski
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #136 on: 02/05/17, 07:48 AM »

Now is the winter of our bliss and content
Made inglorious summer by this din of snork
yet i am drawn to it like a glorious sunset

this virtual place  i choose to inhabit and blame for my worldly woes
« Last Edit: 02/05/17, 07:59 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
rlsg
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #137 on: 02/05/17, 11:21 AM »

yet i am drawn to it like a glorious sunset

this virtual place  i choose to inhabit and blame for my worldly woes



Could be worse?
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freeski
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #138 on: 02/07/17, 10:19 AM »



Could be worse?
yea, we could be living in a county with a dictatorship where people are oppressed and not free to openly express their views. (note: the author could be using sarcasm)

At least we have the illusion of freedom in this virtual vat of goo. ;-)

And now we got snow, a like form and structure to our true
selves. Get it while it lasts.

and now for a possible solution.

after our local guides almost killed a client in an area where they knew about a reactive pwl, and thinking that tiptoeing around it works as an avy mitigation method, and after seeing that the avy debris piled on their skin track in 5 or so different places, --


   
« Last Edit: 02/07/17, 10:39 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
freeski
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #139 on: 02/07/17, 10:35 AM »

we, the seasoned locals started to make sure that our skin tracks were located in as safe a location as possible, even when we assumed it was safe to ram one up through the avy terrain.

we figured folks that were less seasoned and the local guides  would poach our skin tracks and learn the routes. It's working.

i just completed a tour on a dangerous day where a total of 15 people in 5 different groups were skiing avy terrain and no one was on a skin track that had people above them.

same area where the local guides gave their client post tramatic stress.

the route now follows a lower angle treed ridge.

Lead by example.

« Last Edit: 02/07/17, 10:46 AM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
rlsg
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #140 on: 02/07/17, 01:41 PM »

I've been training my neighbors...different skill set but life is better. sometimes you just have to take the lead and be the trainer...
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pipedream
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Re: January 21, Table Mountain Area Laps
« Reply #141 on: 02/12/17, 08:18 PM »

What's that saying about trash in the backcountry again?

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Moral of story is don't ski when you can snowboard
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