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10/22/17, 08:28 AM

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Author Topic: Dear NCH, go away please  (Read 30469 times)
MattT
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #25 on: 01/19/17, 01:27 PM »

woof....we haven't even hit a real dry spell or low tide this season and we're getting threads like this. Brace ourselves for things to get real testy I guess
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JonnyQuest
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #26 on: 01/19/17, 04:01 PM »

While I don't condone the cutting that has been discussed in prior years, I'm always bemused by the annual diatribe against NCH.  Those that don't use snow machines for access might wonder which is blacker - the pot or the kettle.       
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freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #27 on: 01/20/17, 09:35 PM »

There was an error in my first post. The heli left the blue peak area when i arrived on that first day, however, two friends of mine went home after the heli would not leave the area. There was also an out of town group of 6 doing the birthday tour.

In order to mitigate conflict, the heli is supposed to leave the area when bc skiers are in the area. It's very easy for them to do and very hard for a touring group. Does that make sense?

alpine rose, when you drive a car to a wilderness trailhead, are you using motors to access the wilderness? I operate a 4 stoke snowmoble with an engine that won a design award for fuel efficency. The engine is sourced from a japenese car by arctic cat. I only operate it on roads, just like your car. Hope that helps.

g2g- if you need any help with  routes or staying out of avy trouble, let me know and i'll be happy to help. Remember our last encounter on tay when i warned you about cross windloading in the blue peak area, and you triggered an avy jumping into that exact spot? I commend you for telling that story. Others will hopefully learn from your screw up.

scotsman-always a pleasure.

thanks for all the replies.

to answer the question about the police report.

When all of this went down about that tree cutting issue, an nch dude decided it was a good idea to tap on my truck window while i was at the twisp community center. He issued some verbal abuse and came real close to verbal threats (alledged). I did not file this as a threat report, i want to be clear on that.

i was instructed by the police on how to file a restraining order. I did not. I figured that having the police discuss this issue with him, would stop his behavior. This is all a matter of public record.

Is the fs ok with one of their special use permit holders engaging in this type of behavior? This was not the first incident of this type from nch, but i was determined it would be the last.

What amazes me is that some folks who are against snowmobiles accessing the alpine, think that a helicopter    is different somehow. See bias.   
As a side note. I've been touring in an bowl area that had massive hanging snow above us. Not fun when the heli flys at ridge top level right above that stuff.
« Last Edit: 01/20/17, 10:27 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
David_Lowry
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #28 on: 01/20/17, 11:26 PM »

Is there any request for public comment coming up? What can I do? I haven't skied there in ages, never with nch. Beautiful terrain in the Methow but the vibe was a little off toward us as I recall.

I get weird enounters with blm ranchers out where I am. Think they own the place, but polite in a strained sort of way.

How has this sort of conflict played out in the Wasatch recently?
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flowing alpy
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #29 on: 01/21/17, 05:38 AM »

I'm ok with where this went.
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Good2Go
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #30 on: 01/21/17, 11:16 AM »


g2g- if you need any help with  routes or staying out of avy trouble, let me know and i'll be happy to help. Remember our last encounter on tay when i warned you about cross windloading in the blue peak area, and you triggered an avy jumping into that exact spot? I commend you for telling that story. Others will hopefully learn from your screw up.
 

Ha!!!!!!  You're being delusional again.  I set off an an avy alright, then posted the incident here as a warning to others. You may have commented on it, but certainly not before the fact.  I've been skiing (and climbing) regularly around WA Pass without any help from locals for well over 10 years now.  It's not that hard to figure out, but thanks for the offer.  If you ever want some snomo riding lessons, hit me up.
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SKIER-X
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #31 on: 01/22/17, 03:31 PM »

      Sharon Cohen is offering a free introductory presentation on secular mindfulness .
   Jan. 26th. @ W.T.P.         sharon@mindfulmethow.com
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pipedream
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #32 on: 01/23/17, 08:28 PM »

This thread is the only reason I wish the Barron Yurt had wifi...

Turns-out when you pay the heli company to take you touring you don't hear it again until departure day (well, at least when every day you're out there it's dumping) Grin
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lefttern
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #33 on: 01/25/17, 10:54 PM »

I think this is a testy subject because the NCNP areas are such a beautiful and once less travelled location. 

Last time I went up to the Silver Star area in the Spring/Summer, I was amazed to see that NC heli had left all their hot pink flagging with poles at all of their landing zones and I asked them to remember to clean it up. 

I'm not 100% sure how much they give, but my guess is they donate graciously to NWAC and therefore have a lot of support from that organization.  Along with a lot of sled organizations. 

I remember one year after the infamous tree cutting ceremony, NCHS donated free heli rides to Whistler mountain for an NWAC raffle.  It was amazing to volunteer selling a raffle prize where the patrons were either bc purists and hated NCHS because of the tree-cutting or didn't even ski because sledding was their sport. 

I was amazed at the tolerance of people when I went to Jackson Hole and saw that every trailhead was completely covered with dog poop.  I think we're all going to just have to do a much better job at minimizing our impact because we are all going to have to live alongside each other.  People have similar complaints about Mountaineers organizations.  I like seeing jets or planes every once in awhile while I'm out in a remote location - especially if it's a little yellow plane - but if it just hovers, I'd probably get annoyed too!
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flowing alpy
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #34 on: 01/26/17, 10:24 AM »

I hate dog poop at the trailhead more than I dislike helicopters.
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freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #35 on: 01/26/17, 09:09 PM »

Ha!!!!!!  You're being delusional again.  I set off an an avy alright, then posted the incident here as a warning to others. You may have commented on it, but certainly not before the fact.  I've been skiing (and climbing) regularly around WA Pass without any help from locals for well over 10 years now.  It's not that hard to figure out, but thanks for the offer.  If you ever want some snomo riding lessons, hit me up.

Yea, you were warned on 1-03-14. See Randon Tracks, re: Small slab trigger at wa pass- reply #10

I quoted you and gave you a blue peak conditions report.

'' up high, looks like some crosswind loading far skier left below the wall''

You came up that weekend and triggered a D2 slab in the exact location that i described.

You most likely poached our skin track on that day and i think i remember a post of yours where a local guy, gave you a tow to, was it willow creek? And maybe he let you ski in his group?

So i would say that locals have helped you whether you know it or not.

It's what we do here.
« Last Edit: 01/26/17, 09:16 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #36 on: 01/26/17, 09:33 PM »

This thread is the only reason I wish the Barron Yurt had wifi...

Turns-out when you pay the heli company to take you touring you don't hear it again until departure day (well, at least when every day you're out there it's dumping) Grin
This ironic noise situation is one that was discussed with the forest service during the two fold commercial heli expansion in 2002-03.

We were also concerned with helicopter triggering avys and the general danger to human powered ski touring groups of having a commercial heli-operations zone and multiple landings in close proximity.(they had already crashed two of three helicopters at the time).

The fs response was that the helicopters land on flat ground, so no need to mitigate that concern.

The fs went though the paper work, crossed the t's and dotted the i's and it turns out that all of their mitigation methods failed, and we lost wilderness value terrain to the motorized money interests. That is a violation of law.

Not to mention, it's apparently ok by them if outfitters, who hold special use permits, intimidate concerned citizens taking action and bearing witness.   

« Last Edit: 01/26/17, 09:57 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
Pete_H
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #37 on: 01/27/17, 08:23 AM »

"motorized moneyed interest." Yeah I'm sure the owners and operators of NCH are wealthy powder barons chumming it up with their fellow Wall Street cronies and corporate lobbyists.
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BCSchonwald
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #38 on: 01/27/17, 07:10 PM »


We were also concerned with helicopter triggering avys and the general danger to human powered ski touring groups of having a commercial heli-operations zone and multiple landings in close proximity.(they had already crashed two of three helicopters at the time).

The fs response was that the helicopters land on flat ground, so no need to mitigate that concern.

The fs went though the paper work, crossed the t's and dotted the i's and it turns out that all of their mitigation methods failed, and we lost wilderness value terrain to the motorized money interests. That is a violation of law.

Not to mention, it's apparently ok by them if outfitters, who hold special use permits, intimidate concerned citizens taking action and bearing witness.   



1- There is no evidence or history of helicopters triggering avalanches. Ever. That is akin to yodeling and remote triggering the slope Heidi was singing on. The FS uses evidence to make decisions, not fear.
2-Snowmobiling on closed roads is mechanized access, if you are retired on a fixed income before you turned 55 then you might be the motorized moneyed interest picking on hard working professionals.
3-Ski Forums cannot resolve personal disputes between two parties that do not work it out on the skin track. Internet Mediation has a poor track record.
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flowing alpy
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #39 on: 01/27/17, 07:59 PM »

Let's meditate @17BBI.
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freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #40 on: 01/28/17, 09:08 AM »

1- There is no evidence or history of helicopters triggering avalanches. Ever. That is akin to yodeling and remote triggering the slope Heidi was singing on. The FS uses evidence to make decisions, not fear.
2-Snowmobiling on closed roads is mechanized access, if you are retired on a fixed income before you turned 55 then you might be the motorized moneyed interest picking on hard working professionals.
3-Ski Forums cannot resolve personal disputes between two parties that do not work it out on the skin track. Internet Mediation has a poor track record.

You are correct, heidi the helicopter can not trigger an avy by yodeling. Sound is not the issue.

1. Down force pressure from the heli blades certainly has enough energy to trigger an avy. I doubt the heli guide industry is going to report any avys that result.

2. Guides ski cut the avy terrain for avy control work and ski down above bc skiers.

3.Not retired. I pound nails for shelter  and produce honey for food. In other words, i help with sustaining a community. Kind of proud of my actual hard work.

I skin up to ski, more hard work. Sorry but that is non-motorized access.


As i mentioned already, a working, touring guide ski cut an avy down on a friend of mine that had the potential for fatal results.

That guide, who is part owner of ncmg, also heli guides and didn't have enough situational awareness to ensure that the slope below was clear before he made that ski cut. I hope he learned something, i sure did.

Please excuse me for not wanting to wait for a fatal accident to prove my point.
« Last Edit: 01/28/17, 09:36 AM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #41 on: 01/31/17, 09:09 AM »

I now know what needs to be done. My intention was to work with the local fs one more time on this issue, however i will be filing a complaint with the Dept. Of Agriculture Office of the Inspector General.

It will not be easy, and it's not something that i want to do.

Full disclosure- after my dad served in a combat zone in germany during ww2, he spent his carreer as a federal investigator at the USDA-OIG.
« Last Edit: 01/31/17, 06:44 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #42 on: 02/03/17, 12:19 PM »

I just finished meeting with the local fs district ranger. We discussed an issue that i'm having with continued harressment. I was told that i need to document any incidents with the county sheriff and consider  filing for a restraining order.

We also discussed the possibility of mitigating the impact that the helicoptor is having upon bc skiers.

1.Discussed possible wording in the operating plan or permit that better defines what action that nch is required to take when it encounters bc skiers in the shared use terrain.

2. Defining what days that nch can operate in shared use terrain. For example, maybe nch can use silver star on Friday, Saturday and Sunday and bc skiers the rest of the week. Other areas include, frisco mountain, wa pass area and cutthroat basin.

3. We discussed my alligation that nch personal may have lied to law enforcement when they gave their statements concerning the first tree cutting incident. All i can do is send the evidence that i have to the fs that may or may not prove my alligation.

If you remember at the time, i made a request to the ranager that all the other cutting sites that were later discovered, and that were not disclosed to the fs at the time of the first cutting site investigation, be investigated by fs law enforcement. This was not done. So we are stuck with, 'it was pilot'.

4. We discussed the incident where that guide/owner ski cut an avy down on my friend. Ncmg was asked to review and modify their safety protcols. I expressed to the ranger that the guide was negligent and it almost resulted in killing my friend.

5. We discussed the recent close encounter with the nch helicopter in blue peak. I was told that in order for the fs to take action, these incidents need to be reported. I reported the incident at the meeting and hopefully it will lead to meaningful mitigation.

6. We discussed a recent incident where two ncmg guides took a group of 7, including a 14 year old boy, up on delancy ridge during dangerous avy conditions. The group travelled through avy terrain in lock step.

It appeared that a solo bc skier had  climbed the wind loaded ridge and triggerd a slab (enough mass to bury a skier) on the ski down shortly before i arrived to witness the incident.

I went solo on this 'adventure' to rest an injury and take the oppurtunity to observe this feasco. Including the guided group, there were around 16 people all looking for very limited deep powder skiing.

At one point one of the guides asked me if i wanted to pass his group. I told him that i did not want to endanger his group by climbing above them.
I chose to except the risk of them above me in this situation. And skied down before and away from this group after climbing a little past their safe stopping point. Don't know if they climbed to the ridge. Delancy ridge is complex avalanche terrain.

i discussed this incident with the ranger to underscore the need for guided groups to be more in line with safe practice protocols and maybe placing limits under what conditions guided groups can go out.

The first time we discussed (2002) guided groups going out during high avy rated days we were told that the heli doesn't go out during those high avy danger rating days.

Maybe that  really should be
the standard nationwide for guided groups.




« Last Edit: 02/03/17, 02:50 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
BillK
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #43 on: 02/03/17, 04:23 PM »

If this meeting really happened, I'm amazed the ranger could keep a straight face. 
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pipedream
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #44 on: 02/03/17, 08:33 PM »

If helis didn't fly on days with high avy danger, there'd be no heliskiing industry in CO, UT or a good chunk of interior BC. I think it just so happens out here that most of our high danger days coincide with weather that is not acceptable for instrument-less, mountain flying.

There are always safe places to play, it's getting to them which can be tricky. A helicopter reduces that complication significantly.
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freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #45 on: 02/03/17, 09:22 PM »

If this meeting really happened, I'm amazed the ranger could keep a straight face. 
I'm curious what action would you take if a guide ski cut an avalanche down and it killed a friend, a daughter, son or your wife?

Would you be happy if your local ranger said that 'we suggested that the company take a look at look at their safety protocols'?

I'm all ears if you have a better way to handle this 'cause this is NOT how i want to spend my time.
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BCSchonwald
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #46 on: 02/03/17, 10:51 PM »

I'm curious what action would you take if a guide ski cut an avalanche down and it killed a friend, a daughter, son or your wife?

Would you be happy if your local ranger said that 'we suggested that the company take a look at look at their safety protocols'?

I'm all ears if you have a better way to handle this 'cause this is NOT how i want to spend my time.

The Kendall accident last year stands as an example of a skier triggering an avalanche on a person below resulting in a fatality. No proof of malice just poor judgement and communication.

And yes using a snomo is mechanized when leaving your vehicle parked at a trailhead/road closure.
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snoqpass
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #47 on: 02/03/17, 11:12 PM »

The Kendall accident last year stands as an example of a skier triggering an avalanche on a person below resulting in a fatality. No proof of malice just poor judgement and communication.
While that was a likely scenario there isn't proof that's what happened
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BCSchonwald
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #48 on: 02/04/17, 08:56 PM »

Ski cutting in the bc with other people in the area shows poor judgement, regardless of the outcome. Teton Pass and the Wasatch have dealt with similar situations and recognize ski cutting as inappropriate in busy bc areas due to the possible unintended consequences.

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freeski
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Re: Dear NCH, go away please
« Reply #49 on: 02/08/17, 08:41 AM »

Ski cutting in the bc with other people in the area shows poor judgement, regardless of the outcome. Teton Pass and the Wasatch have dealt with similar situations and recognize ski cutting as inappropriate in busy bc areas due to the possible unintended consequences.


Also consider that this was a supposedly trained guide who also is part owner of ncmg. I hold them to a higher standard then joe blow who doesn't know.

The fs should have booted him off the national forest, but once again, zero accountability. And the only reason the incident came to light at all is because a bc skier, with ethical values, required a full report to the fs, where it got sweep away. In other words, zero action.
 
When the guide submited observations to nwac the next day, he mentioned observing a fresh D3 avalanche in one of the hairpin bowls but nothing about this incident until the victim took action and compelled a proper report to nwac, complete with names.

Until the forest service holds the industry accountable for these types of incidents nothing will change.


So guys like me have to step up and basically throw a tantrum to get these issues out there and compell the fs to take action and the industry does not like it.

I got seriously worked over by the nch cheese factory and the fs ranger says, not our problem.

And the clients who support this crap, well they just want to ski powder, not their problem either, until they get killed or injured in a preventable accident.

Money rules. All hail money.( that's the tantrum part)

 
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"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
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