Home > Trip Reports > 1/10/2017, Herman Saddle Pow

1/10/2017, Herman Saddle Pow

1/10/17
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Posted by bwalt822 on 1/10/17 10:43am
We played hookey from work to enjoy the bluebird powder day that was promised and it definitely paid off.  Took three laps in cold fast boot top powder on Herman saddle and then followed a skin track up towards the south facing slope of Mt Herman where we were in for a treat.  For we were following the skin track of the Queen Regent of Mt Herman himself!

Normally meeting  Bagley Lakes drainage royalty would be exciting but the Queen Regent was not pleased with us.  He condescendingly referred to us as "followers" and decreed that we should have stayed over on Herman Saddle where there was plenty of terrain.  He must come to this secret pow stash to ski with only a chosen few.  We stopped well short of his chosen line and transitioned. The Queen Regent then stated that we were not to ski over the skin track.  I regret to inform his majesty that we did indeed cross the skin track a couple times while skiinng the awesome snow.

Ha! Awesome.
I'm pretty sure Silas and I ran into the queen at Bear Gap a few weeks ago.  Good to see he's getting out.

You are of course free to go wherever you choose and do what you want, however there are a few rules of back-county etiquette and style that if would be good to consider.

#1 if you follow somebodies skin track , on meeting them you should first thank them for it and compliment them on it.. hopefully you did.
#2 Not excusing his grumpiness... but you were" followers".
#3 Looking at the picture above, skintrack has been crossed and turns are all crossed and over the place... your track is your signature and many backcountry skiers as they become more experienced consider the track they and their partners leave to be a mater of style and want to make them beautiful( evenly spaced, nice shape etc). In busy areas ( and especially with the growing numbers)  it has the added result that nice farmed turns  saves good snow for others.
#4 if you can  avoid crossing a skin-track you should... You should have.

He certainly isn't entitled to tell you to piss off, however imo your posted response is a bit boorish and us older curmudgeons would really wish you younger folks would consider some good old fashioned backcountry manners and style.
Also by referring to him as a queen are you being homophobic.? Why not call him Prince Regent?

I of course have broken all the rules above .

We didnt get a chance to thank them. We were shouted at from a couple hundred feet above.  It was a very nice skin track however. 

Everyone it there that day was a follower including anyone who broke trail as this it's a week used area even on a Tuesday.  It was the tone that was at issue.

The picture above wasn't from the area in question.  Everyone skis differently including the radius of their turns so its not always practical to nest them perfectly.  It's also not a big deal if my partners cross my tracks and leave some bad handwriting on the mountain. There are better things to worry about.

I've never had any issues with ski tracks across a skin track up mellow terrain.  Of course you don't want to blow out critical kick turns but a crossing it a couple times isn't a big deal.  There was no need to bark instructions at us in that situation.

This was literally the first negative interaction I've had with anyone backcountry skiing since I started.


Well, thanks for the reply.

I must beg to differ on the question of crossed, irregular tracks taking up a large portion of a slope, "bad handwriting" as you so aptly put it.

It's not a question of turns being closely nestled as in classic farming but turns being nicely spaced and not crossing. I guess it's a question of aesthetics.

Skiing a slope with you and your partners turns looking nice I think enhances the mountain whereas I cringe when I see tracks like in the picture above.

I remember looking at two sets of perfect tracks from the top of the Interglacier to the bottom, no other tracks, just these two perfect tracks. I couldn't stop looking at them and admiring not only the skill and control that it took to make them but they were aesthetically pleasing and beautiful. I'm sure whomever put them in enjoyed placing them and looking at them afterwards..double pleasure.
I even photographed them.

Im still trying to emulate them, probably never will... but I try and fail most of the time.
Just an opinion...you are entitled to yours.
Namaste.

If you can't handle other people being around the LAST place you should be skiing is Bagely Lakes Basin.  And getting bent about turns over a skin track is ridiculous.  $&@# that guy.  Ski as you wish.

How were the winds affecting snow quality during the day?

Two words:  good grief.

The winds weren't hurting the snow for the most part except maybe near the very top of Herman saddle.  Before that they were helping fill tracks if anything.

Scotsman, I agree that when possible we should try to take up as little snow as practical. I generally try to make my turns nice.

I also dont want to blow this situation up to much, this wasn't a shouting match or anything, just some comments directed our way.  I was just trying to write about a weird situation that we mostly found perplexingly humorous.  We couldn't understand why someone would be so protective of such a large area.  It's not like we followed then up some couloir that they had to wait for us to get out of the way.

It's hilarious how some Baker locals view Herman as their secret stash. Keep shredding and having fun!

Typically my touring partner opens the 8s and I close them. 

Figure 8s waste too much pow. We all need to work on farming turns a la the famed agrarian of the Wasatch.



A powder slope is like an Etch a Sketch.  It eventually all gets erased anyway. 

Like many issues in the backcountry I've seen lately, it's about manners, and common decency.  These goals are elusive in the age of Trump, but I suggest the following:

- defer to those that have set a skin track for you to follow, you owe them your day of pow

- enjoy your freedom to do as you wish

- help educate others that don't know what you know

I usually don't spend much time in popular areas so I don't have to deal with others that much.  Usually, it's dealing with snowshoers that mess up our uptrack completely.  Let's all be tolerant and share the stoke.

I find spiritual bliss in free and unconstrained high-speed GS turns that respond to the seductive curves of glacially sculpted slopes.  I could never find peace in the totalitarian confines of a scripted Zen garden.  To each their own.

Scott

author=bwalt822 link=topic=37563.msg152205#msg152205 date=1484102639]
We played hookey from work to enjoy the bluebird powder day that was promised and it definitely paid off.  Took three laps in cold fast boot top powder on Herman saddle and then followed a skin track up towards the south facing slope of Mt Herman where we were in for a treat.  For we were following the skin track of the Queen Regent of Mt Herman himself!

Normally meeting  Bagley Lakes drainage royalty would be exciting but the Queen Regent was not pleased with us.  He condescendingly referred to us as "followers" and decreed that we should have stayed over on Herman Saddle where there was plenty of terrain.  He must come to this secret pow stash to ski with only a chosen few.  We stopped well short of his chosen line and transitioned. The Queen Regent then stated that we were not to ski over the skin track.  I regret to inform his majesty that we did indeed cross the skin track a couple times while skiinng the awesome snow.




The tracks in this picture are an abomination.

Look fine to me, wish I was there.  If you have to blow over the skin track then do a hop and its all good.  If you climb up the slope then ski down it however you chose, this ain't the Augusta Country club.

Roadside blowhards and spooning tracks. Yuck on both fronts.

Some of us are out there every day.  We know what the weekend warriors are up to.  Let's strive to ensure we all have the max fun for all.  I'll be breaking trail tomorrow and I hope others will also have a great time.

Cheers.

author=Scotsman link=topic=37563.msg152212#msg152212 date=1484110709]
I of course have broken all the rules above .


I too did 3 laps on Herman on Tuesday. I put the skin track in at 730 am. Lots of riders followed. No one thanked me. I don't care but I appreciate manners. . 95% or more of the people I meet in the backcountry are happy, friendly, and respectful.
I have asked around about his nibs and have been assured that he is the owner of mt Herman.  Man that's great!  How do I  get to own a mountain  too?

Anyways thanks for keeping it real Scotsman. Yours is the quote of the thread.  It says experienced, balanced and honest. Desirable  qualities in any touring partner

author=slacker link=topic=37563.msg152266#msg152266 date=1484199651]
I too did 3 laps on Herman on Tuesday. I put the skin track in at 730 am. Lots of riders followed. No one thanked me. I don't care but I appreciate manners. . 95% or more of the people I meet in the backcountry are happy, friendly, and respectful.
I have asked around about his nibs and have been assured that he is the owner of mt Herman.  Man that's great!  How do I  get to own a mountain  too?

Anyways thanks for keeping it real Scotsman. Yours is the quote of the thread.  It says experienced, balanced and honest. Desirable  qualities in any touring partner


Just to keep readers from being confused, the area I'm talking about is west of where your skin track turned up hill from bagley lakes.  I think many people refer to the sub peak that butts to Bagley lakes as mt herman.  Im not sure what the colloquial name for where our last lap was.

Snowshoeing in the skin track, ignorance vs. high risk tolerance, sharing secret stashes on TAY...but this surpasses them all for inanity.  Holy Hell!  Manners and respect are generally good for social interaction and good will.  I typically support them, but to try and dictate how someone lays down tracks in the backcountry is straight up absurd.  We are past the point of no return.  If you go to places like Bagley Lakes on a blue bird day with fresh snow, you better be prepared to share it with LOTs of people all doing their own thing.  If you are worried about laying down some perfect S turns and being able to admire your work from afar, then you better take your ass afar to begin with.

IMHO skiing is one of the most extreme privileges that exist on the planet. Backcountry skiing is even further up the list. I keep that in mind when I'm out there, and when I read threads like these.

Whether we like it our not, we're a community. We share resources that no individual owns (terrain, water, air). The number of people vying for those resources is on the rise. Change is tough. People are sensitive. If we want to have shared values, we should keep talking about what they might be and do so constructively.

Constructive conversation is always a good thing, but the topic in of itself must have value in the first place.  For me, any discussion of  the appropriateness of one's turns holds little positive benefit to the community.  I just can't wrap my head around the idea of there being an "appropriate" way to lay down tracks in the backcountry, but I don't think of powder as a commodity or resource that is to be preserved as long as possible for the other users around me.  Maybe this is selfish, but it's not my concern whether I leave any space for untracked turns on a face I am skiing.  Especially in the sidecountry.  Powder is there to use by whoever gets there first and in any manner they choose to use it.  For me the answer with these threads is always the same and always simple.  Go further.  Go farther.  To expect to have everyone come to an agreed understanding about skin tracks, turns, etc in the side country is wholly unreasonable.   Turns are as individual as the person making them.  Who is anyone to tell another person how to make them?!?!? 

if i'm following in someone's track and i get a chance to speak to him/her, i will always say thanks and offer to take over, and the trailbreaker always gets to drop in first. if, however, anyone tells me where/where not to ride, and how to make turns, i will arc a few 100m long 100m wide trenches and do my best to make sure that he/she crosses them, cause f@#k those people

author=discostew link=topic=37563.msg152290#msg152290 date=1484254035]
if i'm following in someone's track and i get a chance to speak to him/her, i will always say thanks and offer to take over, and the trailbreaker always gets to drop in first. if, however, anyone tells me where/where not to ride, and how to make turns, i will arc a few 100m long 100m wide trenches and do my best to make sure that he/she crosses them, cause f@#k those people


Yep.  Look, I don't want to cross anyone's tracks ever.  If given the choice, I don't want anyone trashing my perfectly sculpted S turns either.  I turn like crazy.  I love turning.  I love looking back at my turns from the bottom.  I love looking at my turns on the skin out.  However, to think I can dictate what some else does with their turns or even "educate" them on what an "appropriate" turn looks like,  smacks of backcountry elitism.

Hahahaha sounds like you ran into Woods! Old guy with a big beard on a splitboard?

This is funny! Part of what attracts me to the back or side country, is that there are no "rules." Courtesy, yes; breaker gets firsts. I used to live and ski the Wasatch. It makes me sick to think I'd have to shadow someone's tight little turns! Sure I like to look up at my tracks, but if someone wants to ride over them, at least they are leaving more untracked nearby for me. Untracked is what I really like and if I ain't gettin' it, it's my fault for going to a popular area or being a weekender, dang-it. That guy's comments would not sit well with me either.

author=Eckels link=topic=37563.msg152302#msg152302 date=1484272972]
Hahahaha sounds like you ran into Woods! Old guy with a big beard on a splitboard?


He was on a splitboard lol, wasn't close enough to see the other details.

i'm with Scotsman. my first year i the backcountry was 1993 on teton pass (50 days), and his rules and reaoning were generally the same i picked up that winter from my elders, and will certainly teach my children.

beyond his stated reasoning, crossing skin-track has much bigger consequences as things get deeper (injuries to skiers crossing skin-tracks); micro-terrains block visibility and people lemming down such that many passes destroy the skin track (and/or cause someone to create a new skin track -- thereby taking away more turn terrain); and keeping the skin track singular to preserve down terrain.

absolute rules have no place in the back country and loving-kindness always, but i like the idea of older BC folk teaching the younger. it's a great tradition for back country travelers of all sorts, and we should express gratitude for the gesture.... so thanks, Scotsman

author=wingy link=topic=37563.msg152342#msg152342 date=1484341628]
i'm with Scotsman. my first year i the backcountry was 1993 on teton pass (50 days), and his rules and reaoning were generally the same i picked up that winter from my elders, and will certainly teach my children.

...

i like the idea of older BC folk teaching the younger. it's a great tradition for back country travelers of all sorts


I appreciate this sentiment but I do think there's a difference between organically passing recommendations to peers, friends, and relatives on a tour and yelling at strangers from hundreds of feet above. They may be "best practices" but that method to me doesn't seem the best way to impart such wisdom.

Yes, Onward has nailed it. We all agree. Be nice. Have fun. Be considerate.

Yes, completely agree with Onward, and agree that anyone who raises a voice or tone in the BC is violating the biggest rule of all: don't be a dick. I wish the original poster hadn't had this experience, and thank him for keeping it cool when he rightfully could have started a dust up.

author=discostew link=topic=37563.msg152290#msg152290 date=1484254035]
if i'm following in someone's track and i get a chance to speak to him/her, i will always say thanks and offer to take over, and the trailbreaker always gets to drop in first. if, however, anyone tells me where/where not to ride, and how to make turns, i will arc a few 100m long 100m wide trenches and do my best to make sure that he/she crosses them, cause f@#k those people


Exactly. Yes, always try to avoid crossing the skin track (which is somethings impossible of course), but I don't go to the backcountry to be told how to make turns.

It's amazing how some people can manage to end up pissed off instead of joyful on a sunny day with powder snow. 


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bwalt822
2017-01-10 18:43:59