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11/18/17, 09:02 PM

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| |-+  Weak Layers: decision making in avalanche terrain
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Author Topic: Accountability  (Read 3420 times)
twistedpfister
1Member
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Posts: 1


Accountability
« on: 12/29/16, 09:48 AM »


http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/sports/sports_extras/outdoors_snow_survey/if-we-screw-up-and-shut-up-nothing-is-learned/article_9980334c-86dd-5285-81fa-c209bf278e03.html#.WGRcaKHyImk.facebook
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SKIER-X
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Posts: 104


Re: Accountability
« Reply #1 on: 01/16/17, 12:14 PM »

  Great article ! Thanks.
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Edgesport
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Posts: 296


Re: Accountability
« Reply #2 on: 01/22/17, 07:43 PM »

Good stuff.
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freeski
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Posts: 531


Re: Accountability
« Reply #3 on: 03/17/17, 12:08 PM »

Agreed- a very good read.

It's kind of interesting that when i post here on tay about the need to require guide-outfitters to report near-miss accidents as a matter of public safety, a clients right to know, and an accountability measure, i get the 'your beating the same old drum' theme meme. 

and yet, i never get an intellegent rebutal to my argument.

I've already sited valid research here on the site that concludes that accountability leads to better decision making.

there are some guides and patrolmen who are breaking this barrior and they are the one's conducting  themselves in a professional way.

the tide is turning but it needs to be a permit requirement for all those with commercial operations who desire to work on public land.

''and the beat goes on,
and the beat goes on''
« Last Edit: 03/17/17, 01:13 PM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
avajane
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Posts: 746


Re: Accountability
« Reply #4 on: 03/17/17, 05:26 PM »

I just heard 3rd hand that 3 people were involved in an inbound Avy on 7th Heaven today at Stevens Pass. Has that gotten out yet?
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Brian Izdepski, Facebook TAY
Eric Johnson
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Posts: 13


Re: Accountability
« Reply #5 on: 03/18/17, 08:10 AM »

Interesting article.  I haven't experienced that sort of negative response here, however.  Twice I and my group have been involved in avalanche incidents; both times we posted them (on nwhikers.net) and what we did wrong, and both led to good discussions.

Have people here experienced anything like the harsh response cited in the article?


The two incidents:

Damnation Pk, April 2009:  http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7974370&highlight=damnation

Mt. Sefrit, April 2010:  http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7982803&start=0


A couple of the many excellent points from the article:

"how can we learn from each other if we arenít open and honest about our mistakes?"

"...raises questions about our assumptions of safe zones and good route finding rather than negligence. But how are we ever going to be able to explore the difference if no one is willing to speak up?"

"Brown talks about how fear of shame and vulnerability hold us back, stifle our creativity and innovation and prevent change. She goes on to explore how deeply ingrained shame is in our culture and how difficult it is for us to break down its barriers to true learning. The antidote, she says, is empathy.  Social media leaves little room for empathy, however. Studies have shown that in the absence of face-to-face contact, humans are more willing to be cruel, harsh and judgmental."

This last point is very interesting.  Social media has played a huge role in this, making it much easier for so many more people to immediately weigh in with opinions and comments that are often ill-informed and in no way constructive.

Speaking for myself, after each of those incidents cited above what I felt was not shame, but initially relief that no one was injured, then humility--which is different from shame--and a need to analyze and discuss the situation and what we did wrong.  Most of all, a very strong desire to learn from the experience.

Also from the article:  "Empathy demands that we put ourselves in someone elseís shoes before we jump to any conclusions about their actions. Empathy requires listening even when we think we know the answers."

Exactly.  Stop and think.  Then post a well-considered, thoughtful and constructive comment.  One we can all learn from.
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freeski
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Posts: 531


Re: Accountability
« Reply #6 on: 03/18/17, 09:25 AM »

Interesting article.  I haven't experienced that sort of negative response here, however.  Twice I and my group have been involved in avalanche incidents; both times we posted them (on nwhikers.net) and what we did wrong, and both led to good discussions.

Have people here experienced anything like the harsh response cited in the article?


The two incidents:

Damnation Pk, April 2009:  http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7974370&highlight=damnation

Mt. Sefrit, April 2010:  http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7982803&start=0


A couple of the many excellent points from the article:

"how can we learn from each other if we arenít open and honest about our mistakes?"

"...raises questions about our assumptions of safe zones and good route finding rather than negligence. But how are we ever going to be able to explore the difference if no one is willing to speak up?"

"Brown talks about how fear of shame and vulnerability hold us back, stifle our creativity and innovation and prevent change. She goes on to explore how deeply ingrained shame is in our culture and how difficult it is for us to break down its barriers to true learning. The antidote, she says, is empathy.  Social media leaves little room for empathy, however. Studies have shown that in the absence of face-to-face contact, humans are more willing to be cruel, harsh and judgmental."

This last point is very interesting.  Social media has played a huge role in this, making it much easier for so many more people to immediately weigh in with opinions and comments that are often ill-informed and in no way constructive.

Speaking for myself, after each of those incidents cited above what I felt was not shame, but initially relief that no one was injured, then humility--which is different from shame--and a need to analyze and discuss the situation and what we did wrong.  Most of all, a very strong desire to learn from the experience.

Also from the article:  "Empathy demands that we put ourselves in someone elseís shoes before we jump to any conclusions about their actions. Empathy requires listening even when we think we know the answers."

Exactly.  Stop and think.  Then post a well-considered, thoughtful and constructive comment.  One we can all learn from.

I've posted on tay most of my significant mountain mistakes and people here appreciate them.

Those include one avy that caught me unaware,almost  getting caught in a big rock fall, jumping a cornice to avoid the down climb where i took a major fall, having to self arrest in an icy coulour on a solo trip when my ski released on the first jump turn,and skiing off of a cliff band that i didn't know was there (it was part of a side gulley running with the fall line).

Each one of those incidents could have been fatal. I reported those not for fear of being shamed, but because the shame would have come from not talking about them.

Then i started posting stories that friends had told me, like when  'madison ave' avalanche to the ground and to the valley after my friends had skiied it and then skined back up.

People here appreciated those stories also.

Then i posted stories friends told me about where they and guides were involved.

And that's when it hit the fan here, maybe because in my second post here, i told the community about the need for our local guides to report their own near- misses.

then i told a story about a heli guide/owner burial where just a hand was above the surface. I had heard a whisper though the local ski scene about that incident, so i confirmed it with a guide.

The guide then told me to keep quiet about it because it was bad for business.

Well, that kind of stuff just doesn't sit well with me so i looked into the matter.

Then the nch tree cutting incident happened along with other incidents that i felt were inconsistant with the permit, so i reported to the forest service and here at tay.

I was asking for industry transparency and tay offered a chance for me to be transparent in my reporting and findings.

And that's when the tay guide and helicopter fanboy's went into full 'make it up as you go pushback mode' and that meme continues to this day.

So the answer to your question is yes, i have recieved negitive responces here for reporting near-misses and other mishaps, but only when guides are involved.

These incidents are very much a part of where i, loved ones and my friends re-create, and effects everyones safety and creates conflict when these incidents are hidden in the rumor shadows where facts go to die.


It is however the positive responses and support here and from friends (a long with their action) the keeps me beating that tired  drum.




« Last Edit: 03/18/17, 10:44 AM by freeski » Logged

"I'm not making love to anyones wishes, only for that light I see." Cat Stevens
skibacks
5Member
Offline

Posts: 86


Re: Accountability
« Reply #7 on: 03/19/17, 10:32 AM »

Great article & thanks for posting. 

And very insightful comments from Eric J & Freeski - I appreciate your leadership!
Failure & errors are great teachers......if we know about them.
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skibacks
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