Snow Kiting

Does anyone have any experience with snowkiting? I'm trying to combine my summer and winter sports. I'm looking for places to try it within driving distance of Seattle.

Thoughts?

It is hard to find flatish areas with consistent wind, but I hear that Keechelus Lake, near Hyak is a good spot. I have also seen some interesting snowkiting TRs from Idaho and Saint Helens.

I would search the forums of TGR and pskite.org for snowkiting TRs...

ICYM   
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=33042.0

When I lived in Bozeman I did some snow kiting in the big horns,crazies, and around bozeman. Super fun. Not a lot of good options in Washington. It is illegal in wilderness areas and national parks. Hard to find a place above treeline that is accessible and legal.

I've heard the fields near Waterville in eastern Washington are doable.

Oh that's funny. Just clicked the link in the previous post. It's to an old thread I started. Ha. Still haven't snowkited in Washington.

Coquihalla?

Mt Baker Rec area?

Mt Baker Rec area?

I haven't been there but it seems like it would be the right direction for a lot of the SW or SSW storms we get in the winter. Do you know how long the approach is to get above treeline?

N. Idaho

Try NW above Wenatchee?

I hear that Keechelus Lake, near Hyak is a good spot.

Wind is not consistent at the North end of the lake.

Everyone I know that skowkites does it on the Waterville plateau. Consistent winds, smooth terrain and fairly consistent snow.

Here is some real kite skiing at Alpental.   Not the type that they do these days, but kite skiing was invented by Jeff Jobe who took his first flight at Alpental in 1969. 

www.mammothtimes.com/content/warren-mill...irst-person-fly-skis

Best I have seen is the Soldier Mountain area near Fairfield Idaho. A bit of a drive, but WOW. I've been around kiting a long time here in the gorge, but was never interested until I saw kiting in Fairfield.

plains of abraham mt st helens.

illegal to kiteski in wilderness? hmm... see people doing it on hood more than once.

Here is some real kite skiing at Alpental.   Not the type that they do these days, but kite skiing was invented by Jeff Jobe who took his first flight at Alpental in 1969. 

www.mammothtimes.com/content/warren-mill...irst-person-fly-skis

I remember watching Jeff Jobe fly off the cliffs at Alpental back in the 1970s. I thought that the accident with the go cart took place at Alpental as well, but maybe I heard the rumor wrong.

plains of abraham mt st helens.

illegal to kiteski in wilderness? hmm... see people doing it on hood more than once.

It's sort of a gray area, if you respectfully use it I bet it wouldn't be an issue.

It's sort of a gray area, if you respectfully use it I bet it wouldn't be an issue.

Legally it isn't gray at all. Taking off or landing any kind of aircraft within an wilderness area is illegal. Don't be confused by the fact that the forest service doesn't have rangers out there enforcing on a regular basis. If it becomes more common, expect more enforcement. Fine of up to $100,000 and imprisonment of up to 12 months.

Note: Taking off outside the wilderness boundary in a paraglider or other aircraft and then crossing the wilderness boundary while airborne, might be what you refer to as "gray".

The wilderness act doesn't spell out the rules on this, the FAA has guidelines here: www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Adviso...ircular/AC91-36d.pdf

Indicating a 2000ft buffer either along or above ground from wilderness areas and other areas. The guidance is for "Noise generating" aircraft, so paragliders and such might reasonably conclude that it didn't apply to them.

If the FS can't or won't enforce illegal snowmobile use in Wilderness there's probably not much danger for kites. That doesn't mean I think it's okay.

Legally it isn't gray at all.  Taking off or landing any kind of aircraft within an wilderness area is illegal.  Don't be confused by the fact that the forest service doesn't have rangers out there enforcing on a regular basis.   If it becomes more common, expect more enforcement.   Fine of up to $100,000 and imprisonment of up to 12 months.

Note: Taking off outside the wilderness boundary in a paraglider or other aircraft  and then crossing the wilderness boundary while airborne, might be what you refer to as "gray". 

The wilderness act doesn't spell out the rules on this, the FAA has guidelines here:  www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Adviso...ircular/AC91-36d.pdf

Indicating a 2000ft buffer either along or above ground from wilderness areas and other areas.   The guidance is for "Noise generating" aircraft, so paragliders and such might reasonably conclude that it didn't apply to them. 

Kiting is not an aircraft - different from a paraglider, which is why it was a grey area in the wilderness act or up for interpretation. I think most places have revised language to specifically include ski kites in the things banned in wilderness areas, because generally people lump in kites with paragliders, etc.

Lots of threads on this topic on the various PNW kiting forums.

Kiting is not an aircraft - different from a paraglider, which is why it was a grey area in the wilderness act or up for interpretation. I think most places have revised language to specifically include ski kites in the things banned in wilderness areas, because generally people lump in kites with paragliders, etc.

Lots of threads on this topic on the various PNW kiting forums.

Launching and landing is specifically listed as illegal. Sail powered watercraft are also illegal in wilderness areas. Snow kiting is illegal within wilderness boundaries. The USFS has issued specific directives concerning this. It isn't gray.

Cool. That's why I said was grey. I had heard it had been officially banned in wilderness to get rid of any confusion, but didn't know the details. Where would someone go to look at different land boundaries, and the rules that apply to each?

Thanks!

Sail power should be allowed in Wilderness.  Thousands of years of evolutionary human use.  Flight, maybe not so much..  Glad US authorities have no regulation power over the significant amount of kiting in Antarctica..  oh wait.. 
"Article 3 states that protection of the Antarctic environment as a wilderness with aesthetic and scientific value shall be a "fundamental consideration" of activities in the area."  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Enviro...the_Antarctic_Treaty

Because nobody else is there to see it?..

Sail power should be allowed in Wilderness.  Thousands of years of evolutionary human use.  Flight, maybe not so much.. 

Agreed (if not selfishly). But I guess they have to draw the line somewhere?... allowing kites in wilderness would open up a lot of potential spots.

Sail power should be allowed in Wilderness. Thousands of years of evolutionary human use.

Allowing sail powered craft in the Boundary Waters wilderness would fundementally alter the current visitor experience. Sail craft can carry much heavier loads.

Wheels have also been around for thousands of years. However carts and wagons aren't allowed with wilderness areas either. Whether human or animal drawn.

Does anybody know if wheelchairs are allowed in the wilderness? And what about people who have a hard time walking but can ride a bicycle? For those folks a bicycle would be kind of a wheelchair however they're most likely excluded from the Wilderness experience.

A friend of mine was joking and saying that maybe fishing reels should be excluded from the wilderness because they're mechanized.

Adaptive devices such as wheelchairs are exempted by the ADA for people with a disability. If you ride a bike within a wilderness area claiming it to be an adaptive device for a disability -- good luck fighting your ticket in court.

The Wilderness act doesn't ban "mechanical devices" rather "mechanised transport" so your friend was making a dumb joke.

For me it's absurd for the Wilderness Act to allow access for large groups of destructive horses and not allow access for bicycle Riders.

The wilderness act is a political creation. Horse use is allowed, because without the support of commercial horse packers and hunting guides the wilderness act would not have passed. In fact the act had been stuck in committee unril David Brower met with horse packers in Colorado and persuaded them that without passage of the act that their business would be wiped out within the decade by new mining a logging roads reaching areas where they guided clients. These horse packers in turn contacted their congressional representative, who happened to chair the committee that the bill was languishing in and got it moved out of committee for a floor vote.

So what about baby strollers? Are they allowed?

Nope. Wheelbarrows and hand carts are also not allowed. Interestingly travoise are permitted, even though a travoise causes a lot more erosion than a wheeled cart.

Horse and other parties are limited to set number of "heartbeats" 12 in the
alpine lakes, 18 in the Paysten, this prevents massive exscusions. Like for example the old Mountaineers "outings" and training sessions with over 100 participants.

The wilderness act is a political creation.  Horse use is allowed, because without the support of commercial horse packers and hunting guides the wilderness act would not have passed.   ...

And some of the original Wilderness actors were horsemen; I worked in the Bob Marshal Wilderness in the late '60s and it was primarily a horseback user Wilderness. Tremedous local (& limited) resentment because they couldn't use motorized dirt bikes which the proponents claimed did less damage than horses. Don't tell anyone, but we used chainsaws clearing trails before the 4th of July; afterwards we used crosscut saws and axes; we traveled on foot & horseback with mules to pack whatever we needed and to supply trail construction crews and fire lookouts.

I've rafted the Salmon and Snake Rivers, thru the Wilderness, and jet boats are permitted for the same reason you (Randy) stated--only way to get it approved. Flights into private inholdings were also allowed.

So it has been long enough to revisit the whole thing just like we revisiting voter rights, discrimination based on race & religion, environmental regulation, and all the other hard-fought battles of the mid 20th Century that sought a civil society.

FWIW if anyone has an actual interest in how the Wilderness Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act

www.wilderness.net/accessibility?print=yes

Definition - for the purposes of paragraph (1), the term wheelchair means a device designed solely for use by a mobility impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.

My eading of the text is that "wheelchairs" for people with a disability that requires a wheelchair for everyday use are permitted.  However land managers aren't required to make trails accessible, unlike other public facilities that are required to make improvements to remove barriers and improve access to facilities.

So I think the idea of using a bicycle to travel on wilderness trails when they are able to walk for ordinary activities, would be a tough case to make legally.