telemark skiingbackcountry skiingPacific NorthwestWashington and Oregonweather linksThe Yuki AwardsMt. Rainier and Mt. Adams
Turns All Year
www.turns-all-year.com
  Help | Search | Login | Register
Turns All Year Trip Reports
Backcountry Skiing and Snowboarding

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
12/16/17, 03:08 AM

Become a TAY Sponsor!
 
Trip Reports Sponsor
Feathered Friends
Feathered Friends
Turns All Year Trip Reports
(1) Viewing these pages constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use.
(2) Disclaimer: the accuracy of information here is unknown, use at your own risk.
(3) Trip Report monthly boards: only actual trip report starts a new thread.
(4) Keep it civil and constructive - that is the norm here.
 
FOAC Snow
Info Exchange


NWAC Avalanche
Forecast
+  Turns All Year Trip Reports
|-+  Hot Air
| |-+  Random Tracks: posts that don't fit elsewhere
| | |-+  Snow Kiting
:
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]  All | Go Down Print
Author Topic: Snow Kiting  (Read 33128 times)
Randy
Member
Offline

Posts: 1317


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #25 on: 05/04/17, 07:57 AM »

Sail power should be allowed in Wilderness. Thousands of years of evolutionary human use.

Allowing sail powered craft in the Boundary Waters wilderness would fundementally alter the current visitor experience.  Sail craft can carry much heavier loads.

Wheels have also been around for thousands of years.  However carts and wagons aren't allowed with wilderness areas either.  Whether human or animal drawn.

Logged
freeski
Member
Offline

Posts: 554


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #26 on: 05/04/17, 10:31 AM »

Does anybody know if wheelchairs are allowed in the wilderness? And what about people who have a hard time walking but can ride a bicycle? For those folks a bicycle would be kind of a wheelchair however they're most likely excluded from the Wilderness experience.

A friend of mine was joking and saying that maybe fishing reels should be excluded from the wilderness because they're mechanized.
Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Randy
Member
Offline

Posts: 1317


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #27 on: 05/04/17, 01:10 PM »

Does anybody know if wheelchairs are allowed in the wilderness? And what about people who have a hard time walking but can ride a bicycle? For those folks a bicycle would be kind of a wheelchair however they're most likely excluded from the Wilderness experience.

A friend of mine was joking and saying that maybe fishing reels should be excluded from the wilderness because they're mechanized.

Adaptive devices such as wheelchairs are exempted by the ADA for people with a disability.   If you ride a bike within a wilderness area claiming it to be an adaptive device for a disability -- good luck fighting your ticket in court.

The Wilderness act doesn't ban "mechanical devices" rather "mechanised transport"  so your friend was making a dumb joke.
Logged
freeski
Member
Offline

Posts: 554


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #28 on: 05/07/17, 02:18 PM »

Adaptive devices such as wheelchairs are exempted by the ADA for people with a disability.   If you ride a bike within a wilderness area claiming it to be an adaptive device for a disability -- good luck fighting your ticket in court.

The Wilderness act doesn't ban "mechanical devices" rather "mechanised transport"  so your friend was making a dumb joke.
I agree with you that it would be silly to try to fight a ticket for having your mountain bike in the wilderness. However if I had a situation where I couldn't walk without excruciating pain, but I could ride a bike, I would seek to obtain permission to ride my bike in the wilderness.

If permission was not granted I would definitely pursue a lawsuit based on exclusionary practices.

Concerning your comment about that joke being dumb, I would say that not everybody appreciates political satire especially when that satire is contrary to a person belief system ie bias.

I appreciate the joke because my belief system recognizes the arbitrary nature of how the Wilderness Act,and land use regulations in general, are interpreted and implemented by public land use managers.

For me it's absurd for the Wilderness Act to allow access for large groups of destructive horses and not allow access for bicycle Riders.

In the wilderness of Yellowstone National Park you can't take a kayak down the Yellowstone River however fisherman can create a spider web Network of trails along the fragile habitat of the river systems.

So what about baby strollers? Are they allowed?
« Last Edit: 05/07/17, 02:46 PM by freeski » Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Randy
Member
Offline

Posts: 1317


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #29 on: 05/07/17, 06:23 PM »


For me it's absurd for the Wilderness Act to allow access for large groups of destructive horses and not allow access for bicycle Riders.


The wilderness act is a political creation.  Horse use is allowed, because without the support of commercial horse packers and hunting guides the wilderness act would not have passed.   In fact the act had been stuck in committee unril David Brower met with horse packers in Colorado and persuaded them that without passage of the act that their business would be wiped out within the decade by new mining a logging roads reaching areas where they guided clients.  These horse packers in turn contacted their congressional representative,  who happened to chair the committee that the bill was languishing in and got it moved out of committee for a floor vote.

Quote

So what about baby strollers? Are they allowed?

Nope.  Wheelbarrows and hand carts are also not allowed.  Interestingly travoise are permitted,  even though a travoise causes a lot more erosion than a wheeled cart.

Horse and other parties are limited to set number of "heartbeats" 12 in the
 alpine lakes, 18 in the Paysten,  this prevents massive exscusions.  Like for example the old Mountaineers "outings" and training sessions with over 100 participants.
Logged
Andrew Carey
Member
Offline

Posts: 1408


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #30 on: 05/07/17, 07:02 PM »

The wilderness act is a political creation.  Horse use is allowed, because without the support of commercial horse packers and hunting guides the wilderness act would not have passed.   ...

And some of the original Wilderness actors were horsemen; I worked in the Bob Marshal Wilderness in the late '60s and it was primarily a horseback user Wilderness.  Tremedous local (& limited) resentment because they couldn't use motorized dirt bikes which the proponents claimed did less damage than horses.  Don't tell anyone, but we used chainsaws clearing trails before the 4th of July; afterwards we used crosscut saws and axes; we traveled on foot & horseback with mules to pack whatever we needed and to supply trail construction crews and fire lookouts.

I've rafted the Salmon and Snake Rivers, thru the Wilderness, and jet boats are permitted for the same reason you (Randy) stated--only way to get it approved.  Flights into private inholdings were also allowed.

So it has been long enough to revisit the whole thing just like we revisiting voter rights, discrimination based on race & religion, environmental regulation, and all the other hard-fought battles of the mid 20th Century that sought a civil society. :-)
Logged

... want your own private skintrack? Better move to the yukon dude. (B'ham Allen, 2011).
...USA: government of the people by corporate proxies for business.

Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
Randy
Member
Offline

Posts: 1317


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #31 on: 05/08/17, 05:11 AM »

FWIW if anyone has an actual interest in how the Wilderness Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act

http://www.wilderness.net/accessibility?print=yes

Quote
Definition - for the purposes of paragraph (1), the term wheelchair means a device designed solely for use by a mobility impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.

My eading of the text is that "wheelchairs" for people with a disability that requires a wheelchair for everyday use are permitted.  However land managers aren't required to make trails accessible, unlike other public facilities that are required to make improvements to remove barriers and improve access to facilities.

So I think the idea of using a bicycle to travel on wilderness trails when they are able to walk for ordinary activities, would be a tough case to make legally.
Logged
freeski
Member
Offline

Posts: 554


Re: Snow Kiting
« Reply #32 on: 05/08/17, 09:56 AM »

The wilderness act is a political creation.  Horse use is allowed, because without the support of commercial horse packers and hunting guides the wilderness act would not have passed.   In fact the act had been stuck in committee unril David Brower met with horse packers in Colorado and persuaded them that without passage of the act that their business would be wiped out within the decade by new mining a logging roads reaching areas where they guided clients.  These horse packers in turn contacted their congressional representative,  who happened to chair the committee that the bill was languishing in and got it moved out of committee for a floor vote.

Nope.  Wheelbarrows and hand carts are also not allowed.  Interestingly travoise are permitted,  even though a travoise causes a lot more erosion than a wheeled cart.

Horse and other parties are limited to set number of "heartbeats" 12 in the
 alpine lakes, 18 in the Paysten,  this prevents massive exscusions.  Like for example the old Mountaineers "outings" and training sessions with over 100 participants.
could you provide a reference to the role that horse Packers and hunting guides played in the creation of the Wilderness Act.

 It's clear from the quote, that I included below from the Smithsonian, that certain Provisions were put into the Wilderness ACT to appease commercial interests. From that writing of History it seems that you may be over stating the importance that horse Packers played.

How can anyone know if the bill would not have passed if a horse Packer did not become a supporter in exchange for protecting his commercial business interests.

From the quote below it appears that grazing lands were a prime concern at the time and was later disallowed.

Both grazing and horse travel stress the land. It does appear however that commercial special interest groups, who hold lobbying power, have a greater influence over how our public land is used then the influence of good science.


"Initially, the bill faced opposition from industries that would be shutout of wilderness areas, including the American Pulpwood Association and the American Mining Association. But the bill also faced opposition from the Forest Service and National Park Service, which felt the bill would limit their authority in lands within their control.

In 1961, the bill gained a crucial political ally, when President Kennedy spoke in favor of a wilderness bill, reigniting debates in the halls of Congress. But even with presidential support, a bill passed by the Senate ran into opposition from timber, mining and grazing interests, represented largely by the chairman of the House Interior and Insular Affairs Committee Rep. Wayne Aspinall (D-Colorado); the bill would die in committee in 1962. In April of 1961, Zahniser gave a speech, titled “Wilderness Forever,” at the seventh-annual Wilderness Conference in San Francisco. In the speech, Zahniser called for a protection of wilderness “in perpetuity,” underlining the desire for a bill that would protect American wilderness forever.


In 1963, the Senate passed yet another bill, but it was again met with staunch opposition from the House Interior and Insular Affairs Committee.  Realizing that the bill would almost certainly never pass as written, preservationists agreed to several key concessions in order to appease industry interests, including the allowance of grazing and prospecting in wilderness areas (these actions have since been prohibited). In exchange for these concessions, the House Interior and Insular Affairs Committee allowed the bill to be brought to the floor of the House for an open debate. Support for the bill within the House was overwhelming, and the bill passed on July 30, 1964, with only a single dissenting vote. "


Read more at https://wilderness.smithsonian.com/history/#0GVl5dixtjQp8mYO.99
Logged

two sets of principles. They are the principles of power and privilege and the principles of truth and justice. If you pursue truth and justice it will always mean a diminution of power and privilege. If you pursue power and privilege, it will always be at the expense of truth and justice
C Hedges
Pages: 1 [2]  All | Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Thank you to our sponsors!
click to visit our sponsor: Feathered Friends
Feathered Friends
click to visit our sponsor: Marmot Mountain Works
Marmot Mountain Works
click to visit our sponsor: Second Ascent
Second Ascent
click to visit our sponsor: American Alpine Institute
American Alpine Institute
click to visit our sponsor: Pro Guiding Service
Pro Guiding Service
Contact turns-all-year.com

Turns All Year Trip Reports ©2001-2010 Turns All Year LLC. All Rights Reserved

The opinions expressed in posts are those of the poster and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions of Trip Reports administrators or Turns All Year LLC


Turns All Year Trip Reports | Powered by SMF 1.0.6.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.