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Author Topic: source lake uphill dog park trail  (Read 96472 times)
flowing alpy
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #25 on: 01/18/16, 06:58 PM »

Hey friend, I'm not trying to defend any heinous off-leash perpetrators, brown wax non picker-uppers, or Great Danes in the mountains or anything, I'm just saying there's a lot worse things to get worked up about. Like snowshoeing the skin track. Now that shiz is just not right!
...or snowshoeing up the downhill ski track out of source lake with unleashed dogs.
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Pete_H
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #26 on: 01/18/16, 10:20 PM »

Bingo!

Nice job fellas on the brilliant insight. Unfortunately, I wasn't the one with my dog on the day she was lost. There also wasn't any irresponsible activity on anyone's part that day anyway. But thanks for bringing up the happy memories! 

At any rate, no one is arguing that frantic hordes of dogs should be loosed onto the piste to trample innocent ski school children practicing their pizza and french fries. However, I have a hard time getting too worked up because one dog ran around on the groomed run a bit. Inappropriate, yes. The end of the world, no.

As for the OP and his complaint of running into dogs on the out track: I know its fun to go fast there and everything but it is also a popular trail open to uphill traffic and a trail where its completely legal to have off-leash dogs. So please just exercise some patience and realize that even though you are a super rad big line shredder it is is foreseeable that you may encounter uphill traffic and dogs and ski appropriately.
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Jim Oker
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #27 on: 01/18/16, 11:25 PM »

Yeah whenever I ski out that way I just expect it to be a bowling alley. Expecting any less is like expecting folks not to illegally camp in the left lane on the way home. Fine to ask, but good luck with that...
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flowing alpy
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #28 on: 01/19/16, 06:16 AM »

Nice job fellas on the brilliant insight. Unfortunately, I wasn't the one with my dog on the day she was lost. There also wasn't any irresponsible activity on anyone's part that day anyway. But thanks for bringing up the happy memories! 

At any rate, no one is arguing that frantic hordes of dogs should be loosed onto the piste to trample innocent ski school children practicing their pizza and french fries. However, I have a hard time getting too worked up because one dog ran around on the groomed run a bit. Inappropriate, yes. The end of the world, no.

As for the OP and his complaint of running into dogs on the out track: I know its fun to go fast there and everything but it is also a popular trail open to uphill traffic and a trail where its completely legal to have off-leash dogs. So please just exercise some patience and realize that even though you are a super rad big line shredder it is is foreseeable that you may encounter uphill traffic and dogs and ski appropriately.
completely legal to have a dog run off-leash during ski area operation is something i'd like to see in print by the USFS.
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Pete_H
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #29 on: 01/19/16, 07:45 AM »

Dude i agree with you its probably a good idea to leash your dog on a trail that empties out runs from a ski area, at least till you get above the congested section down low. But Jim Oker pretty much sums it up in his previous post. If I remember correctly there are also signs warning skiers to watch for uphill traffic.

I could be wrong but I don't think that trail is technically part of the ski area, so therefore it's just like any other piece of FS land, where there are no dog leash laws.
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snoqpass
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #30 on: 01/19/16, 07:52 AM »

Dude i agree with you its probably a good idea to leash your dog on a trail that empties out runs from a ski area, at least till you get above the congested section down low. But Jim Oker pretty much sums it up in his previous post. If I remember correctly there are also signs warning skiers to watch for uphill traffic.

I could be wrong but I don't think that trail is technically part of the ski area, so therefore it's just like any other piece of FS land, where there are no dog leash laws.
It's in the permitted area and there is FS land that requires you to leash your dog
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Pete_H
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #31 on: 01/19/16, 07:57 AM »

Obviously. Like a ski area, for example. Maybe the out run is in the permitted area but a quick glance at the trail map shows it as outside the ski area boundary, so go figure.
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gravitymk
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #32 on: 01/19/16, 08:54 AM »

It's in the permitted area and there is FS land that requires you to leash your dog

This...
And he is in a position to know.

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snoqpass
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #33 on: 01/19/16, 09:14 AM »

Obviously. Like a ski area, for example. Maybe the out run is in the permitted area but a quick glance at the trail map shows it as outside the ski area boundary, so go figure.
A quick glance at the map shows it as the "Back Bowls Boundary" which are within the ski area boundary. Most all FS trails on the I90 corridor require dogs to be leashed
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Jsper
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #34 on: 01/19/16, 09:46 AM »

Hi Pete! Much love to you and Rainy wherever she may be!
     Super tacky of someone to bring that up. I would advise
you stop the conversing with these dorks man. When u bicker with
idiots eventually they'll wear  you down and bring you down to there
rule abiding, sheep following thoughtless, mindless ways brother.
We live east of the crest, in the mts. , with tons of space to roam
for a reason homey. When I see poop, I Ollie that shit.
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JPH
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #35 on: 01/19/16, 09:53 AM »

Most all FS trails on the I90 corridor require dogs to be leashed

Most trails on the north side of I-90 (not so much on the south side), but I doubt the FS considers this a trail. The Snow Lake trail would certainly require a leash.
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Jim Oker
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #36 on: 01/19/16, 09:55 AM »

When I see poop, I Ollie that shit.
Which reminds me - folks should be careful about what they ask for. I often see folks asking that dog owners carry the poop out. Which I am guessing is a higher standard than most apply to their own craps when they gotta go while out on tour. But I also bet most folks don't just drop their own poo in the track or nearby and leave it there for all to see and possibly ski on or fall into.

The "carry it out, please" has sort of worked for lots of busy I-90 hiking trails. Sort of. Like halfway. The bad half. Many of these trails are now littered with dog poop in bags - people bag it but don't want to carry it up with them. And surprise surprise, some percent of those folks forget and the bags hang around forever compared to an ollied poop.

But damn, the meltout of both the part of that trail near the upper lot as well as the bottom of the gold creek XC/snowshoe/circus trail is not pretty!
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aaron_wright
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #37 on: 01/19/16, 10:31 AM »

Nice job fellas on the brilliant insight. Unfortunately, I wasn't the one with my dog on the day she was lost. There also wasn't any irresponsible activity on anyone's part that day anyway. But thanks for bringing up the happy memories!

Letting your off leash dog chase deer is not only irresponsible but illegal. I'm sorry you, your wife actually, lost your dog but that doesn't excuse the fact that you or your wife didn't have your dog under strict verbal control as required by law in both Chelan and Kittitas counties and on all FS lands. I've been there, it sucks but it's my fault if my dog chases wildlife.

Below, Jsper says it's all okay because we live east of the crest. I live east of the crest. Most everyone I know over here is very intolerant of uncontrolled, off leash dogs.
 
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Jsper
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #38 on: 01/19/16, 10:40 AM »

Aaron you're the master of putting words in people's mouth bud.
I've seen your snide comments before on a variety of forums. Never
said it's ok but what is real is that, now listen close Aaron , is we accept
responsibility for our actions . Don't care what county policies are. I'm sure
Rainy was yelled at but she didn't listen. So the consequences are they go
home with no dog and are sad. They live with that.
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aaron_wright
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #39 on: 01/19/16, 10:48 AM »

Aaron you're the master of putting words in people's mouth bud.
 I've seen your snide comments before on a variety of forums. Never
said it's ok but what is real is that, now listen close Aaron , is we accept
responsibility for our actions . Don't care what county policies are. I'm sure
Rainy was yelled at but she didn't listen. So the consequences are they go
home with no dog and are sad. They live with that.
So, Pete said no one was irresponsible but it's illegal for someone to let their dog chase wildlife, how is that not irresponsible? He said that, I didn't. How is that putting words in his mouth?

I take personal responsibility for everything I do and if my dog were lost or shot by a game warden for chasing deer that would be my fault and I would accept any legal consequences that I faced. I wouldn't claim I wasn't being irresponsible. Do you know why it's illegal to let your dog chase deer?

Are you above the law? That seems to be what you are saying for yourself and also for Pete.

The only people that have been truly snide in this thread are you and Pete.
« Last Edit: 01/19/16, 10:52 AM by aaron_wright » Logged
Pete_H
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #40 on: 01/19/16, 12:57 PM »

Hey I'll be the first to admit I've made sarcastic comments on this thread. But if you don't think that was warranted please go back and reread the original post, which was caustic and patronizing to all those who earn their turns, regardless of the dog issue. I have thick skin and I can handle someone being rude on the Internet but don't whine when it comes back around.

At any rate, i hope dog owners be responsible and leash their dogs when appropriate and others can relax a bit and forgive an indiscression or two unless there is a genuine safety issue, like the gentleman who posted about running into the golden retriever.
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gravyb
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #41 on: 01/19/16, 02:48 PM »

To clarify someone's guess on signage, they've never had a sign telling skiers to watch out for uphill traffic.  They did however used to have a sign near the lot saying no uphill traffic and to watch for high speed on-coming traffic.

Near the lot is the critical area for leashes.  Once you're a 1/4 mile up the trail it's much less of an issue and collision risk.

Very true that poop left sitting for eternity in a plastic bag is ironic and depressing.
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Jim Oker
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #42 on: 01/19/16, 03:10 PM »

BTW, I get that the posters who called out Pete for his lost dog likely think this was totally relevant to the thread, but FWIW, in the context and given the wording, the first reference to this loss on page 1 came off as a very personal sort of "insert knife and twist" sort of personal dig versus a really clear argument for proper handling of dogs. It's hard to read this as not being meant as being a personal dig as anything else. Yes, good voice control is important as Aaron points out, but IMO it's not sufficient and thus not super on-point with respect to the blind-curves-bowling-alley of this stretch of the Alpental border - the interactions just happen so fast along there that voice control won't be quick enough in many cases.

As for snideness, some might read the OP's reference to "you big tour studs" outfitted with full regalia as possibly just a teensy bit snide too - I know I did when I first saw that post. Perhaps understandable given the "righteous rant" nature of this anti-poo thread, but snide is snide. Not a good excuse to respond in-kind if you don't like snideness of course.

FWIW, I would never tuck above and past the water tower to make it across the flat above the upper parking lot (especially getting to upwards of 40 MPH in that circus zone =8-O ). Regardless of what the circus crew should be doing there, I know what they actually tend to be doing, and I would rather skate a little alongside the parking lot than take what I see as a significant risk of collision - same deal further up the hill closer to Source Lake where it's a bit roller-coaster-y - I accept a little skating, sidestepping, or herringboning as a cost of avoiding hitting a goomba or their dog. Regardless of who I could say would be technically "at fault" in case of a collision there, I'd still prefer to avoid the risk. YMMV
« Last Edit: 01/19/16, 03:40 PM by Jim Oker » Logged
Mofro
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #43 on: 01/19/16, 04:12 PM »

In all my years of slack country skiing Alpental I have never hit anyone unintentionally Wink. Small children may dart from time to time but generally don't try to run toward you and nip like some off leash dogs will.  I was there when one of our group (3rd to go past) couldn't avoid one of the 2 dogs charging at us on the upper ski trail out above the water tower run out to lot 4, resulting in a lot of blood and doggie carnage. Nothing reckless or careless by the skier, all on the off leash dogs.  And I remember that another dog lover in our group took it upon himself to use his shirt to stop the bleeding, and then spent the rest of his afternoon driving the dog and the owner to the animal clinic in north bend to get mended.


As for dogs on the ski hill, in the nineties before chair 1 was replaced with the lovely high speed quad, my dog at the time would occasionally wander up from the loop road to look for hand outs from the female (that dog had a thing for the ladies) parking lot ski school crowd. On more than one occasion he spotted me while I was loading the chair and would run up the entire length of the chair, beating it to the top and meeting me at the off ramp. One spring day he met his match as we continued up to 2 and that darn dog tried to run up the Fan through the slush, no way could he keep up with the chair on that rise. I thought he was going to implode his little doggie heart and found him exhausted in the flats of tower nine. We skied back down the Fan and he got a free ride up the lift for a run down Nash.   
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not always bad
Pete_H
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #44 on: 01/19/16, 05:30 PM »

Ha. Funny story Mofro (the second one).

Glenn, by the way, you didn't deserve my snide comment to your first post. I could have made my point in a lot less of an assnholish manner. Sorry for that.
« Last Edit: 01/19/16, 05:53 PM by Pete_H » Logged
glenn_b
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #45 on: 01/19/16, 07:19 PM »

Pete,
I'm sorry, too, and my condolences to all re Rainy, a dog I went looking for a couple of times after you'd reported her missing. I'm sad you didn't have a better outcome.
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flowing alpy
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #46 on: 01/19/16, 07:34 PM »

I would advise
you stop the conversing with these dorks man. When u bicker with
idiots eventually they'll wear  you down and bring you down to there
rule abiding, sheep following thoughtless, mindless ways brother.
We live east of the crest, in the mts.
good way to have a conversation, huh?
Pete, the source lake trail policy reads as such;
The trail is located within the Alpental Ski Area Special Use Permit Boundries and is designated for Downhill Ski Traffic Only.
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pipedream
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #47 on: 01/19/16, 09:04 PM »

Discussion of boundaries and policies aside, I saw a fella charge up the groomed trail from the lot in his truck the other night. Imagine facing that as a downhill skier in the dark. I didn't wait around long enough to see if he returned.
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Moral of story is don't ski when you can snowboard
Jim Oker
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #48 on: 01/20/16, 11:57 AM »

Pete, the source lake trail policy reads as such;
The trail is located within the Alpental Ski Area Special Use Permit Boundries and is designated for Downhill Ski Traffic Only.
Not to beat the dead horse, but it's worth sharing what Gib had to say on the Summit uphill travel policy sticky thread:
Quote
For getting further afield - even though "technically" you might be skirting along and somewhat through our permit area, we do not preclude you from heading up the South Fork valley towards Source Lake in order to access points beyond our operating area.  ie   Great Scott, The Tooth, Chair Peak, Kaleetan, etc.  But the savvy traveller must be aware that all of the left hand slopes are avalanche prone terrain and may in fact have very happy little triggers riding every feature.  Natural and human triggered slides have often endangered and trashed those commonly used up-valley skin and snowshoe routes.  We ask that you stay trail right when on the groomed return trails and once those peter out you should make your own way rather than following the downhill ski area return tracks.  VERY hazardous high speed (sometimes less-skilled) oncoming traffic will be on those tracks.
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flowing alpy
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Re: source lake uphill dog park trail
« Reply #49 on: 01/20/16, 03:32 PM »

I like that gib calls us happy little triggers:-)


My original point, was triggered over the weeks from witnessing groups of equipment rich young people, that were using lot4 as their base to explore the backcountry. Many,  appeared very avalanche and weather savvy, by the looks of their gear and had very expensive snow travel tools.
The interesting part was seeing the different way those that brought their dogs behaved. Some owners were very courteous, kept their animal close and usually had or was using a leash. Some owners knew their animals habits and attempted to not have their animal be a nuisance, 50/50 successful.
The owners of most concern were those that felt as if the trail is an off-leash dog area and showed NO concern for the people their animal comes in contact with.
these are my observations and are in no way scientific or fact, this I know.
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