Mt. Rainier heavy-handed policing

I want to share an incident that occurred to me (and I assume others) yesterday (Saturday 2/21). Got to the gate at 8:45a,, it was opened at or right after 9:00am. When we all started parking up top a ranger was walking around individually reminding everyone that the gate will close at 5:00 and that we need to be back at the parking lot by 4:30 so that we can make it to the gate. A bit forward but fine I thought.

Fast forward to my return to the parking lot around 4:20. At 4:30 a loud PA system from somewhere turns on and basically tells folks to start packing up their shit and head home, the pool's closed! I kid you not it sounded like an amusement park scolding and a loud PA system definitely does not fit with the wilderness experience they advertise. Whatever, I and everyone else didn't let it bother us and continued chatting, packing up, and taking parting shots of the alpenglow; typical stuff. When about 3/4 of the main lot was cleared I hopped in my car and drove down.

After a few turns I run into the Nordic Patrol pickup truck. They're driving like they're not in a hurry, but I can't blame 'em because they have no reason to hustle and they're volunteers driving federal property (nice folk btw). Anyways, a bunch of cars start to pile up behind me.

Fast forward to the gate. We get there and it's oddly closed. I look at my dash and it says 17:00. I look at my atomic-synced phone and it says, I shit you not, 17:02. A ranger gets out of her truck and opens up the gate, waving the Patrol truck through. But then she motions for me to stop. Uhh.... ???

I kid you not after letting the obvious answer through, first thing she asked me was why I didn't make it down on time :
THEN, I'm asked for my driver's license.
THEN, I'm harassed about an minor (state) vehicular violation that I don't think a federal officer even has jurisdiction over.
THEN, she writes down my license number, issues me a warning to make better plans and get to the gate earlier.

There are at least 6 cars behind me that all showed up at once in my "pack", and at least another 20 were still in the lot when I left. I can only assume many warnings were issued, and many licenses handed over.

I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone that the official reason that the gate closes at night in winter, stated in a big sign right on the gate, is that there is "PLOWING IN PROGRESS". On one of the busiest days of the winter, at the last easy place in the state to get snow, in a place that is supposed to be a retreat for wilderness and peace, I got pulled over and upbraided like a kid in a corvette doing 20 over for showing up 2 minutes late to a gate that closes for "plowing" on a night with no snow forecast.

Forgive me for being irate and vulgar, but how the fuck did we come to this?!

I had a very similar experience last year, arriving at the gate at 5:07pm.

What really fires me up is the arbitrary nature of the enforcement. On any given holiday you can see hundreds of cars still parked at Paradise well after 5pm. I bet the gate is open. No rangers in site. No reprimands. I can't vouch for this year, but this was definitely the case on MLK last year.

On the face of it, the action seems absurd and heavy handed.  One would think the LEO would let the gov't vehicle with the volunteers and the cars immediately behind it thru w/o hesitation.

But upon reflection and considering blackdog's post: "What really fires me up is the arbitrary nature of the enforcement.  On any given holiday you can see hundreds of cars still parked at Paradise well after 5pm.  I bet the gate is open.  No rangers in site.  No reprimands."  One can guess that after repeated and gross disregard of the rules signed, posted, and adverstised repeatedly over years a decision has been made to maybe try and enforce the rules.

Besides plowing, one practical reason for the closure is to not have to fully staff the LEO contingent after 5 p.m.; having two shifts is double the expense, obviously.  Even the LEO at the gate might well have been earning overtime (plus on Sundays a Sunday differential and on holidays, Holiday Pay--adds up to 2x the hourly wage).

So, it appears to me, the LEOs decided to change visitor behavior: they had signs up, they went person to person to give each person a personal invitation to leave on time, and then they broadcast over very loud loudspeakers that it was time to leave, then, perhaps, they had a gov't vehicle leave at the last minute they calculated such that if it followed the speed limit strictly it would arrive at the gate at 5 p.m.  Those arriving later would be subject to delay--questioned, asked for licenses, cursory inspection of vehicles, and the later the person left the lot, the more time they would then have to spend at the gate.

I doubt they issued tickets, the Federal prosecutors and judges probably don't have a lot of time on their hands to deal with minor violations of park regs (they even refuse to prosecute someone who blew up a FS ranger station because it would have too costly LOL).  So, what tools do the LEOs have to use: harass the errant drivers to the point that malingering incures more disomfort than pleasure. LOL

After a few turns I run into the Nordic Patrol pickup truck. They're driving like they're not in a hurry, but I can't blame 'em because they have no reason to hustle and they're volunteers driving federal property (nice folk btw). Anyways, a bunch of cars start to pile up behind me.

Fast forward to the gate. We get there and it's oddly closed. I look at my dash and it says 17:00. I look at my atomic-synced phone and it says, I shit you not, 17:02. A ranger gets out of her truck and opens up the gate, waving the Patrol truck through.  But then she motions for me to stop.  Uhh....  ???

I kid you not after letting the obvious answer through, first thing she asked me was why I didn't make it down on time  :
THEN, I'm asked for my driver's license.
THEN, I'm harassed about an minor (state) vehicular violation that I don't think a federal officer even has jurisdiction over.
THEN, she writes down my license number, issues me a warning to make better plans and get to the gate earlier.

A few questions: Did you get her name? I'm guessing it was one of the new LEs hired this past year, who in several encounters since last summer, has been an absolute nightmare of by-the-book enforcement of summer overnight parking, gate, chains, etc, etc. Easily the most overbearing LE that I have met yet in 20 years of going to Rainier. She and other recently hired LEs (basically since Ranger Margaret Anderson's tragic shooting death on New Year's Day 3 years ago) are the only ones likely to behave this way. And sadly, their attitude is very counter to the spirit of what a park ranger should embody (the LEs are park rangers whose training and duties include law enforcement, they are NOT policemen, much as they may act like police now). But they are under severe pressure from the higher-ups in the park's management too, to enforce the rules more strictly than in the past.

Did you explain that your 2-minute delay was 100% the fault of the slow driver in front of you? And what did she say to that?

So, it appears to me, the LEOs decided to change visitor behavior: they had signs up, they went person to person to give each person a personal invitation to leave on time, and then they broadcast over very loud loudspeakers that it was time to leave, then, perhaps, they had a gov't vehicle leave at the last minute they calculated such that if it followed the speed limit strictly it would arrive at the gate at 5 p.m.  Those arriving later would be subject to delay--questioned, asked for licenses, cursory inspection of vehicles, and the later the person left the lot, the more time they would then have to spend at the gate.

That's quite a conspiracy theory, Andy. Excellent!

Andrew,
trust me the Nordic Patrol had nothing to do with any timing plot, they were just part of the scene but doing their own thing. They are good people volunteering their ski days, and they do us all a favor by keeping the SARs down by preventing them from happening in the first place.

Many rangers there actually lament the same point you brought up: not enough resources to keep it open after 5:00pm. When I show up at 11:00pm in April though there aren't any LEOs then either, but the gate is open. What's different...?

It's a great park from April to October that feels and works like a NP should but during the other months it feels like I'm buying a 7 hour ticket to Wild Waves, complete with bouncers/security.

Did you explain that your 2-minute delay was 100% the fault of the slow driver in front of you? And what did she say to that?

Didn't catch her name Amar, I was too dumbstruck and busy rifling for my wallet. Unfortunately I offered no explanation, as I have been trained by legal counsel to act a very specific way when being questioned by police, and I very much fell into that behavior pattern yesterday.

Thanks for posting Jonn; the loudspeakers are truly obnoxious!  I'd expect these sort of incidents to increase as daylight lengthens. The past couple winters, the park has suddenly found enough resources to open longer in April, before most seasonals come on duty.  They don't need more LEOs, they could split the staff into overlapping shifts for longer coverage, as was done for decades before the current policy.

Mount Rainier management seems much better at making excuses for their own frequent lateness than at accepting them from the public.  It's hard to buy the party line of "insufficient resources" when they've added over fifty new year-round positions in the past three years, from 125 FTE to 178 FTE according to news reports.  This outfit thinks how they spend money is none of the public's business; try requesting a copy of the most recent budget and organization chart if you don't believe me..  A staff less than half the size of today's in the 70's & 80's could have plowed circles around the current crowd and there was no consequence to being late except having the gate combo left on your windshield.

I think one could make a pretty strong case that Mount Rainier has been the worst-managed park in the country for the past two decades.  They lead the league in locked gates.  No national park has reduced public access more on 2WD roads formerly open to the public.  No other park has permanently closed a summer (Westside) road to the public, while maintaining it for their own convenience.  Their justification of flooding hazard seems undercut by subsequently building a $2M Emergency Operations Center right next to the river in Longmire.  No other park has completely closed for six months to complete an unnecessary visitor center that was ten times over initial estimates and years behind schedule.  No other park in the country has protected and promoted a superintendent that took a six-figure bribe from a concessioner.

Andrew,
trust me the Nordic Patrol had nothing to do with any timing plot, they were just part of the scene but doing their own thing. They are good people volunteering their ski days, and they do us all a favor by keeping the SARs down by preventing them from happening in the first place.

I wasn't impugning the Nordic Patrol (I know several) nor was I suggesting that they were "in" on a plot.  But I suspect they actually try to follow the rules and regs, i.e., leave on time, drive the speed limit (which is "slowly" for most people) in their gov't vehicle, and get to the get by 5 and otherwise maximiize their time in the bc.  I was suggesting LEOs could use them as a marker for reasonable behavior.  I would, however, suspect the Nordic Patrol could have a key and that they could be given leeway to come out any time the want--who knows?

And I understand well the frustrations of being asked to leave the upper lot well before dark.
And I agreed that the behavior was heavy handed.
And I read that the rules are routinely ignored.
And Vogtski said they are unnecessary and the park is poorly managed.
And Amar said the new LEOs are not as laid back as the old (maybe they are military veterans taught to obey orders).
And I, personally, have loudly and vociferously complained about park acces policy.

But what's a LEO to do if he or she is told to enforce the rules and not incur overtime?

BTW, my initial reaction was why not just leave the gate open 24/7?  But obviously somebody/some committe made a decision based on a number of factors they considered and cast it in stone.

And, BTW, you do realize that Chuck Young, the Chief Ranger retired; someone else is in charge now.

That's quite a conspiracy theory, Andy. Excellent!

"Conspiracy", another word for "management by committee."

Oh, and I'm sure the LEO asking for licenses wan't the new, youngish, tall, female, dark-haired LEO who waved me thru the gate even before it was fully open on Friday and didn't even ask if I had chains--so I rolled down the passenger window to tell her I had chains. Didn't get her name (or phone number). LOL

This is a copy/paste of what I posted on cc.com. We were about 4 minutes behind the OP on Saturday. About 20 cars in front of us and by the time we got out at least 20 behind us. Anyway...

The park is, and has been for a decade now or more, run by <redacted> idiots.

Last night we got to the gate at 5:04 PM. In front of us was a line of 20 cars. An LE was lecturing every driver about the gate closure time. It took more than 20 minutes for us to get to our turn where I was also told they were trying to reduce overtime. Really? By paying an LE overtime to stand there and lecture a line of 50+ cars?

They have not considered (or just don't <bleeping> care) the inevitable outcome of this policy, which is people rushing down the mountain, from the summit, from Muir, and on the road to avoid getting a lecture, their time wasted, and/or a ticket. And that is going to lead to more injuries that suck up their precious OT budget. In our case, we could easily have made it down four minutes faster, if I had passed the three slow-moving cars in front of me on a double-yellow.

Speaking of budget, I have, in the past, looked at their budget. They have plenty of money to extend gate hours on nice days. They just make poor choices on how they spend it. They have been using the lame-ass budget excuse to restrict public access (the guide services are unfettered) for many years now, including the infamous closures a couple years ago. Again, all bs posturing.

Park management have entirely forgotten why they are employed, which is to provide access to the park to its the owners (the general public) while protecting its natural resources. Forcing a long line of cars to idle for 20, 30, 40 minutes so the drivers can be lectured after enjoying the park does neither.

I'm fed up with being treated like shit by them.

...
Park management have entirely forgotten why they are employed, which is to provide access to the park to its the owners (the general public) while protecting its natural resources. Forcing a long line of cars to idle for 20, 30, 40 minutes so the drivers can be lectured after enjoying the park does neither.
...

You are obviously not famiiar with well-known and highly respected (in Italy) Mussolini School of Public Relations!!!

Where do you live, anyway? LMAO

No other park in the country has protected and promoted a superintendent that took a six-figure bribe from a concessioner.

To keep the record complete on this:

Uberuaga sold his Ashford house to RMI/Whittakers when he was in charge of letting contracts for the park, including the guide contracts, for over 300% of its appraised value.

There was an investigation and a whistleblower brought it to light. Among other things, the investigators determined that he had attempted to withhold information about the situation. He was reprimanded by then Park Super Jon Javis and the case was referred to federal prosecutors in Seattle, who both refused to prosecute AND refused to say why.

Jarvis, who oversaw this malfeasance, was promoted. He then promoted Uberuaga to Park Super, despite having signed the reprimand papers. Jarvis ended up as the NPS Director, where is AGAIN promoted Uberuaga to Park Super at the Grand Canyon, one of the most prestigious positions in the NPS.

So when the cronyism and acceptance of outright law-breaking goes all the way to the top of the NPS, what hope do we have of things actually changing?

www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/mount-...inized-on-land-deal/

Back on topic, I specifically asked the LE on Saturday whose policy it was to hassle park guests who were two minutes late getting out. She said it was the policy of the no-longer-acting-now-permanent superintendent, Tracy Swartout. I suggest that we all call and/or write and express how we feel about their heavy-handed treatment of their guests. I mean, can you imagine what would happen to a restaurant that behaved that way toward patron that left three minutes after the posted closing time? "Did you NOT see the three signs that say the gate closes at 5:00 PM?" was how I was greeted.

Continuing my rant (I am really pissed about this)...

Instead of treating people like criminals for being two minutes behind the staff clock for closing the gate, something like this would be more effective:

"Hello. I hope you enjoyed your visit to the park today. The mountain was beautiful. We just wanted to remind folks that the gate does close at 5:00 PM. You didn't quite make it down by that time so we're asking that you leave a bit earlier next time. Thank you!"

But instead she was making a very big production of recording everyone's license plate: She wrote mine down as I approached, then after I stopped, walked to the front of my vehicle and pretended to write it down again. This is just a blatant attempt to intimidate park visitors. They I got the "Did you NOT see the three signs..." speech.

I, among other things, told her that we'd come down from the summit and that's just not something that, especially in the winter, can be run according to a clock. Rushing down the mountain or road will result in more incidents/injuries which will certainly NOT reduce their OT spending.

Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

Continuing my rant (I am really pissed about this)...

Instead of treating people like criminals for being two minutes behind the staff clock for closing the gate, something like this would be more effective:

"Hello. I hope you enjoyed your visit to the park today. The mountain was beautiful. We just wanted to remind folks that the gate does close at 5:00 PM. You didn't quite make it down by that time so we're asking that you leave a bit earlier next time. Thank you!"

But instead she was making a very big production of recording everyone's license plate: She wrote mine down as I approached, then after I stopped, walked to the front of my vehicle and pretended to write it down again. This is just a blatant attempt to intimidate park visitors. They I got the "Did you NOT see the three signs..." speech.

I, among other things, told her that we'd come down from the summit and that's just not something that, especially in the winter, can be run according to a clock. Rushing down the mountain or road will result in more incidents/injuries which will certainly NOT reduce their OT spending.

Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

I guess the question is, next time will you be down through the gate before 5pm?

I guess the question is, next time will you be down through the gate before 5pm?

sounds like future employment potential at MRNP

I used to dream about skiing at Rainier National Park.  After the last few years of watching how the management operates, I no longer want to have anything to do with it.  I am a rabid skier but I hate dealing with entrenched  bureuons.  So much for my national hearitage.  I expect the roller coasters, bumpercars, and Magic Castle Sky Boxes  to be installed next.   Very depressing!

I was in Whittakers coffee shop this weekend and heard a few people complaining about this. They were from Vancouver and Seattle. Seems the word is spreading....Bad PR.

I guess the question is, next time will you be down through the gate before 5pm?

I will get down safely and don't effing care what time that is and if they want to write me a ticket they can spend their budget sending a LEO to a court date.

Jerks. (park jackalopes, not anyone here)

Edited to remove profanity per request.

CascadeClimber,
Were you the party of two who skied out of Gib Ledges? If so I was the guy asking you about the route at Muir (and in the parking lot on my way to our shared unsavory fate). Did you actually ski through the Ledges?

CascadeClimber,
Were you the party of two who skied out of Gib Ledges? Did you actually ski through the Ledges?

Yes, that was us. No, we did not ski across the Ledges. I've been that way at least a dozen times now and I've never seen enough snow on it to ski the whole way across.

Our intent was the ski the ID, which we've done before. But the northeast wind was ripping up it and having endured -40F wind chill at the top, we were ready to be on the sunny, south-facing, wind-protected side of Gib Rock, and didn't want to have to try to pick our way through the icefall on icy snow like we'd skied from the crater.

The bottleneck on Gib Chute is snow-filled now, but appears to be about 10 feet wide at its narrowest point. Too steep and narrow for me

Can we ease off on the profanity a bit? Thanks.

I was in Whittakers coffee shop this weekend and heard a few people complaining about this. They were from Vancouver and Seattle. Seems the word is spreading....Bad PR.

The question in my mind is whether making the winter experience at Paradise less appealing is the overall objective -- with long term goal of reducing winter visits to the point that they can button up the park roads at Longmire by Halloween and not re-open until start of guided climbing season around the first week of May.

FWIW: This year the Nordic Patrol folks are having to deal with higher levels of red tape. Previously any volunteer with a driver's licence could drive the truck, now the park service is limiting drivers to those that have completed a NPS driving safety course.

Sorry Marcus, I tried to keep it contained but I was just too irked. I will amend the language in my post if you want.

CascadeClimber,
40 below windchill, wow that's cold! I remember reading the summit forecast and thinking it looked survivable but Arctic.  For comparison, when you showed up at Muir it was a balmy 10 degrees with a windchill of -10 F. But hey, the sun was shining!

After I departed Muir I traversed far right so that I could get a closer look at Gib Chute. Here's a digitally-zoomed picture. Not pictured is a viable route through the bergschrund at the bottom, but as you noted from above, that entrance looks sketchy at best.

40 below windchill, wow that's cold! I remember reading the summit forecast and thinking it looked survivable but Arctic.  For comparison, when you showed up at Muir it was a balmy 10 degrees with a windchill of -10 F. But hey, the sun was shining!

I packed up in the hut in a wet shirt, no hat, and no gloves- it felt balmy by comparison. I was very surprised when we got down and looked at the telemetry.

On the gate issue: I just spent over an hour on the phone with the deputy super, Tracy Swartout. And it was the most positive, engaging interaction I've had with any of the staff down there in 10 years or more. NOTABLY: She said she could recall just a handful of times that people have written or called about how they were (poorly) treated by park staff. So I strongly encourage anyone who got read the riot act at the gate or bull-horned in the Paradise lot in recent weeks to call and share. 360-569-6503.

Not that MRNP is reading this or willing to learn, but the "problem" of late traffic and related overtime costs could be solved immediately by simply writing parking tickets to everyone in the lot at 5pm. 

A $50 ticket goes a long way towards helping the OP wrap up his casual chat session at his car (even after being warned), and at the same time people descending the mountain behind schedule know their maximum downside is a $50 ticket, rather than a locked gate.

The parking tickets pay for the overtime and everyone can budget their time accordingly.

I know, I know--what's the point if there's no redistribution of wealth, no ascendancy of the Proletariat?  There would, however, be no more stern lectures or lame excuses at the gate. 

:

I'm not taking the bait.

Okay, I'll take it for you.

The substance of your OP was that warnings are being applied selectively. Moreover the gate closure policy is capricious--what is it about 5pm? I agree on both points.

The solution is to do away with gate closures and and heavy-handed warnings of closures. Somebody descending the mountain at 5pm knows they don't need to rush and risk injury; somebody chatting away in the parking lot knows he's going to pay for the priviledge. It all works out!

The management of our beloved MRNP is self-evident: It doesn't matter if they're crooks, their policies are incompetent. None of us like the policies, but instead of whining about them, why not suggest a better policy? The clowns that run the park--crooked or not--will heed a well-organized, well-focused citizen group.

Thankfully, I've never encountered this experience but I must say that the "stress" of getting down to the gate before it closes greatly diminishes my enjoyment of being up there. I want to stay up there and photograph sunset but it just isn't possible to do so AND get down to the gate in time.

Simplest solution I can think of is close a gate to uphill traffic and for the downhill lane, install the tire puncturing spikes like you see in parking lots that allow one way traffic through them. Probably makes too much sense. : ???

We saw absolutely no issues or hassles on Monday. No bullhorns in the parking lot, no ranger waiting by the Longmire gate, no hassle at all. Sailed through the gate at 5:01 pm without issue. Such a pleasant experience. Other than the stress of worrying that it would be like Sunday instead!

Why so different on Monday? Maybe it was the absence of the certain new LE ranger I mentioned above who really likes to hassle people (who was likely the one on duty on Sunday -- if someone did get her name, please PM me as I would really like to know if this problem is specific to certain rangers).

Or maybe Loren's productive phone conversation with park deputy superintendent Swartout (also mentioned above) only hours earlier really did make a difference? And then she told the rangers not to hassle people so much on Monday evening? One can only hope so!

Okay, I'll take it for you.

The substance of your OP was that warnings are being applied selectively.  Moreover the gate closure policy is capricious--what is it about 5pm?  I agree on both points.

The solution is to do away with gate closures and and heavy-handed warnings of closures.  Somebody descending the mountain at 5pm knows they don't need to rush and risk injury; somebody chatting away in the parking lot knows he's going to pay for the priviledge.  It all works out!

Thankfully, I've never encountered this experience but I must say that the "stress" of getting down to the gate before it closes greatly diminishes my enjoyment of being up there. I want to stay up there and photograph sunset but it just isn't possible to do so AND get down to the gate in time.

Simplest solution I can think of is close a gate to uphill traffic and for the downhill lane, install the tire puncturing spikes like you see in parking lots that allow one way traffic through them. Probably makes too much sense. : ???

Most people (including you two) are misunderstanding the main issue behind the the gate closures, so I'll try to explain it. The issue is that all national parks have exclusive law enforcement jurisdiction, and have since the early days of the National Park Service 100 years ago. What this means is that they are solely responsible for all law enforcement duties within their boundaries, except in emergencies when other police agencies will obviously come and assist the NPS law enforcement rangers (the most recent example being the tragic shooting on January 1, 2012). This is in sharp contrast to other federal areas like national forests or BLM land or wildlife refuges or whatever, which have no such exclusive law enforcement jurisdiction, and in fact, most law enforcement duties are handled by local county sheriffs with only a skeleton staff of US Forest Service or BLM law enforcement officers.

So in order for any road-accessed area of a national park to be open, they need to have adequate law enforcement staffing, and the number which Mount Rainier National Park considered to be "adequate" increased substantially in the wake of that shooting. Due to budget issues (which may be partially their own fault based on priorities), they want to have only a single 8-hour 9am-5pm LE ranger shift assigned to cover that Longmire-Paradise area during the winter season (roughly November to April). Thus the 5pm closure time. And the uphill gate does close at 4pm, with only the downhill half remaining open till 5pm. Those who drive uphill around the half-closed gate between 4 and 5pm invariably get caught by the LE on duty, and severely warned or ticketed (no tire puncturing spikes required). So unless the park chooses to increase LE staffing during winter, the gate hours are stuck being 9-5 only.

After some point in April, they do increase LE staffing to multiple shifts, and so the road can remain open 24 hours a day. Once there are guests staying at Paradise Inn starting in May, the road in fact must remain open 24 hours a day for those guests (except for temporary storm closures, which are rare).

I can't believe that it looks like I'm defending what's going on in the park, and I'm really not (!), but I just feel compelled to explain basic facts that everyone keeps misunderstanding or simply does not know.