Managing hazards when skiing

I'm starting this thread because Lowell brought up good points in a TR on the Watson traverse and I think we could have good discussion on objective hazards while skiing and how to detect, manage, and communicate these hazards.  We already have a good system related to avalanche awareness, alerts, characterization, communication, and education, it seems like the community as a whole can share other information in a similar manner.

Here's Lowell's post that got me thinking about this:

I'm guessing that this and other reports (and the movie I'm working on) will continue to boost the popularity of the Watson Traverse. I think a lot of skiers will want to try the Park Glacier Headwall, since that's the most spectacular route from the summit.

So it seems like a good time to discuss this alternative. For those of you who've skied the headwall during the traverse, I'm wondering what protocol you recommend for the descent. Do you just take a look and drop in, or do you do something more involved?

Traditionally, steep skiers have recommended climbing the route first. It's the only way to really know the snow conditions on the route. But that doesn't work on a route like the Watson Traverse where you're traveling the wrong direction. What would you do instead? I'm honestly curious.

As a strawman, here are some tactics I might consider if I wanted to ski the Park Headwall without climbing it first. I'd like to hear your ideas.

1. Visually inspect the slope from above (of course).

2. Belay someone as they descend on foot to check for instability or iciness. Do lots of poking, stomping and testing. Climb back up to your skis.

3. Belay the first skier down as they test the snow, make ski cuts, and so on. Once the first skier is satisfied with conditions, he/she could untie and ski down. The other skiers would presumably follow unroped.

4. Ski with an ice axe easily available (through your shoulder straps perhaps) so you can drive it in if you encounter an ice patch. (Maybe have an ice screw handy too.)

Can you think of anything else? I might not do all of these things, but I would certainly do some of them before dropping onto a slope like this from above.

Do you guides lead clients on this sort of terrain? If so, how do you do it?

---

(For what it's worth, our May 31 party never seriously considered skiing the headwall from the summit. We didn't prepare for it, and we wanted to follow Watson's route down from the Cockscomb. Our track angled down from the Cockscomb saddle to the bergshrund, where we found a crossing that didn't require a jump.)

And some other relevant information to get the conversation started:
www.wildsnow.com/more/ski-descent-rating-system/

A few questions in no particular order:
What objective hazards (other than avalanches) are you concerned about when you're skiing? 
How do you manage these hazards?  Ski techniques, routefinding, etc.
Does your tolerance of risk change with location?  What about your skiing style/techniques for risk management?
Where do you get most of your information on a route that you haven't been on before?
Do your approaches typically overlap with more distant objectives each time in an area that you're familiar with or do you go for completely unique areas each time you get out?
Do you climb what you ski?

I'll add a little bit more about myself and my approach.

I've been snowboarding near Mt. Baker ski area since 1990, getting around on snowshoes in my teens and 20's and have taken up splitboarding in the last few years.  I'm very comfortable around the ski area but have become more conservative as I've gotten older (I hesitate to say "mature").  My first mountaineering experience was when I got out climbing with my dad at the age of 14 but I put that interest aside for faster paced activities for a long time.  Now I'm more patient and have been getting further out into the mountains but still stay close to the ski area for most of my tours. 

Beyond avalanches I'll look out for and avoid "no fall" zones and lines with no good sight lines to check the lines before commiting to them.  I also don't like crevasses, especially early in the winter with thin bridges and mid spring when we haven't had freezing weather at night.  I'm always cautious on blind rolls.

I have always put on a harness when I step onto a glacier even if it's just to clip a sling onto my ice axe.  I usually carry a single long ice screw, sometimes I carry a picket but usually not, I always carry a 30m rope on glaciers but haven't ridden any lines that required a rapel.  I've never skinned on a rope team because I don't feel confident in my abilities to arrest a partner in a fall if I have skis on my feet.  If I'm worried about falling myself then it's time to go to boots and probably boot crampons.  I've never ridden on belay but I can see it being a very valuable tool for checking slope conditions on a big adventure in unknown terrain.

I usually expect decent snow conditions, at least soft snow, if I'm heading out in the 4000-6000 foot range but I seem to always find crust (breakable or otherwise) in the alpine and expect to tone down my riding.

A lot of my route information comes from personal experience, usually riding a line next to the one that I rode the week before, or from partners who have experience with the route.  Sometimes but not very often I'll read TRs on here and on CC.com, guidebooks (Volken's and Burgdorfer's), and scouring maps (online and paper), before suckering someone into going out with me and exploring on our own.

I'll spend lots of time reading the detailed weather information on NWAC and NOAA to come up with my own estimate of what snow conditions I'll find.  Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong.

I'm much riskier when I'm close to the ski area and as much as I pride myself in being self-reliant or part of a self-reliant group I recognize that I'll take more risks in areas that are more travelled.  I'd go out with one other partner on the CD route on Baker if the weather/snow is good but I'd want a third on Shuksan mid winter.

I don't typically ski what I climb when I'm in familiar terrain because I want to ski much steeper lines than I'm interested in skinning up or I try to do loops instead of out-and-backs.  Outside of my comfort zone I'm more likely to do an out-and-back style tour.

I have a lot to learn when splitboarding crosses into mountaineering and seem to pick up something new everytime I go out.

when i was young, i traveled in the mtns. light and quick, safety was 3rd at best.
day tripping the muir snowfield was no problem in the 80's, the gate was open and the road was plowed. gator and his pals were just beginning to save lives above 10k. now, i would need to plan and organize and study and pack and evaluate my gear and have enough supplies for 3 while checking the weather every 13 minutes texting nwac telemetry do i have the right liners should i go full rocker they do look good on my new avapack with all my digging tools if i ever need that pieps.
it will never be like it was but it's still fun, thank god.

Thanks for the thoughts Alpy, this doesn't really seem to be catching on.

A comment over in the Watson Traverse TR mentioned looking for exits. It's a habit that I have too and one that makes me a lot more comfortable in steep but benched terrain where a tumble or slide might only last a hundred feet. Skiing the Roman Wall or the White Salmon glacier there really aren't "safe zones" to exit to.

In the case of a line that is sustained between 30* and 45* for 3000' vert with no ridges to go to or benches to slow a slide how do you change your skiing?

from shred:

Good discussion on steep skiing protocol.
I have a protocol for pretty much every time I ski something that is out of bounds, (and sometimes in bounds).
It is almost instinctual now.
1. Is the snow going to move?- Most likely yes.
2. How much is going to move? Sluff? Slab?
3. What is my exit options and zone of safety? I like to have at least 2 exit strategies ( specially on exposed terrain).
4. If ice. Do I have the option to reascend? Or a safe exit?
5. Is this line within my personal abilities?
6. Am I mentally & physically prepared?
7. One ski cut. Stable? Go!

As far as others repeating what we did: We had optimal conditions to ski the Park Headwall with lower risk of the shrund danger. Conditions on steep high pitches can change almost instantly with wind, solar radiation, etc.etc.
I recommend not taking this ski lightly.
Also I may add: that everyone that skied this tour was almost as strong as they get, in regards to Knowledge, Stamina, Skills and Experience.
Be prepared and be ready to back away if its not in.
"Live to Ski another Day"

Here is a short video that captures the near perfect conditions:

thesnowtroopers.com/2014/mt-baker-wa-watson-traversepark-shred/

... this doesn't really seem to be catching on.

Fear not, it will. You're asking difficult and high-level questions; replies will appear slowly, but they'll be thoughtful.

--What objective hazards (other than avalanches) are you concerned about when you're skiing?

Anything that can render harm to my party or others. Rockfall, crevasse hazard, slips above exposure, you name it....

Many of us have photos on our walls of competent/expert friends who haven't returned from the mountains. We don't want to add more names to those lists.

-- How do you manage these hazards?  Ski techniques, routefinding, etc.

Baby steps; don't get into anything I can't get out of. If it feels wrong, it is wrong, come back another time.

Know your circle of competence, and tread within it. Leave a healthy margin for error. If new competence is required, develop it in a safe environment.

We've found the increasingly-common idea of "ruling out terrain" to be helpful for managing human exuberance and emotion. "Ruling-out" can be applied broadly to many concepts other than terrain. Just because a thing is awesome or possible doesn't mean you have to do it today.

-- Does your tolerance of risk change with location?  What about your skiing style/techniques for risk management?

I try to keep my goal risk tolerance roughly constant at an error rate of ~1/10,000 days, but will very occasionally bet a little bigger if the expected return is enormous. Only bet bigger if the risks of the bet are simple, understood, and you're at peace with the likelihood of possible consequence, including being crippled.

Only ski as fast as you can see/stop. One at a time when one-at-a-time is warranted. Don't ski ice; it's unforgiving.

-- Where do you get most of your information on a route that you haven't been on before?

Internet, maps, guidebooks, experience; applied in that order. Maps are requisite.

-- Do your approaches typically overlap with more distant objectives each time in an area that you're familiar with or do you go for completely unique areas each time you get out?

Both. In both cases, I try to only swim out as far as I can get back. It's rare that we'll pull off a complicated challenge in a new place, but just being in a new place is a lot of fun, so it works out.

-- Do you climb what you ski?

Very often.

Adding a little to the well considered  protocols, habits and practices already mentioned:
a.  I usually try to climb and ski back the same route, unless the differing return ski descent route is close enough in aspect, elevation, temp., etc. to be judged of similar risk as the one just climbed.
b.  I think we need put special emphasis on our timing in the late winter-spring period when the slopes are still stabilizing, or have seen recent new snow and winds.  The European alpine start seems often limited to the volcano's.  It needs to be reconsidered.  Getting through zones long cooking on upper slopes and shoulders while we labor in the cold shadows is often the source of objective danger - and the only way to avoid it is to climb through in dark or early light, then wait above for the best ski descent time - freer from the objective hazards of cornice falls, avalanches or rockfall.  Serac's, those of course are another story - truly a crapshoot.
c.  Carrying our ice axe or arrest pole at the ready (let alone tucked in behind our shoulder), while skiing, implies we recognize the danger - which usually means we're already past some point that maybe we should have backed off from.  A fall on ice gives only milliseconds to effect your own arrest.  Worse, few of us regularly practice the skill.  I can't tell you how many ice axe arrest classes I've seen or participated in where at the snow was thawed and soft - giving the practioner no relevant practice.  As skiers and snowboarders, I'd say falling on ice is probably our biggest hazard after avalanches.

Good dialogue.  Thanks all.

Carrying our ice axe or arrest pole at the ready (let alone tucked in behind our shoulder), while skiing, implies we recognize the danger - which usually means we're already past some point that maybe we should have backed off from.  A fall on ice gives only milliseconds to effect your own arrest.  Worse, few of us regularly practice the skill.  I can't tell you how many ice axe arrest classes I've seen or participated in where at the snow was thawed and soft - giving the practioner no relevant practice.  As skiers and snowboarders, I'd say falling on ice is probably our biggest hazard after avalanches.

Over on the Watson Traverse thread I mentioned skiing with an ice axe slipped through your shoulder straps on terrain that could contain icy spots.

Obviously the safest thing to do is not to ski in places like that.

But some people may want to do that (like on Mt Baker's Park Headwall). My suggestion is not to ski icy slopes, but to have a backup in case your assessment of the slope's lack of iciness is wrong.

The purpose of having an ice axe handy is not for self arrest. If you need to self arrest wearing skis on an icy slope, you're probably a goner. The purpose is to provide a way to stop a fall from happening in the first place. If you find yourself sketched out on a patch of ice, you can potentially remove the ice axe and swing it into the ice for security. At that point, you could put in an ice screw to get really secure, then transition to crampons or something.

My brother Carl and I did this when we skied the NW Face of the North Ridge of Forbidden Peak . We didn't encounter any ice, but we regularly stopped and plunged in an ice axe (and clipped to it) so we could take photographs safely.

I'm not a big advocate of steep skiing, and I don't claim to be an expert at it, but to me having a backup of this sort seems sensible. If you want to read the ultimate steep skier's nightmare, read this account of Hans Saari's fall on the Gervasutti Couloir in 2001:

threecrazylives.com/2014/05/06/surviving...me-in-the-mountains/

Could he have saved himself with an ice axe handy? It's impossible to know. Just reading this account gives me the willies.

Don't confuse objective hazards with subjective hazards. Most of the precautionary methods discussed deal with subjective hazards.

Don't confuse objective hazards with subjective hazards.  Most of the precautionary methods discussed deal with subjective hazards.

Agreed. The title of this thread is mis-worded.

Lowell, the cultures of climbing and skiing do seem to look at mountains through different lenses. This makes for interesting differences in terrain and risk analysis.

Both cultures require an understanding that not proving the negative repeatedly is more luck than skill.

I'm older so I manage danger by skiing no more than maybe D7 in the backcountry whereas I probably ski D 13 in bounds. Also, when in the backcountry I'm usually with others who don't ski steeper stuff that well, or more frequently by myself. By dropping down so many levels, my chances of falling or getting in a slide are greatly minimized. When I see someone skiing at their limit miles from the nearest trailhead - it makes my back sore...

I manage cold by bringing enough stuff to probably survive a night or two.

I don't ski things I can't see the bottom of (or haven't seen it before)

I ski slow and solidly enough that I DONT fall on steeps - ever. I will vary my
technique to stay safe in the conditions. I can straight line or jump turn without shame. I can side slip or kick turn.

I don't usually ski something where a fall will probably kill me.

I like being the best skier in a group so I don't have to trust others I don't know well enough - or get scared.

I took a long uncontrolled slide in March on this year skiing at Mission Ridge. It resulted in a pretty violent potentially life threatening injury.

The slope I slid down is probably around D10 or D11, 40-45 degrees with rocks, small cliff bands and many small to medium sized trees. The section right under the cornice is probably closer to 50 degrees at the time I skied it. The snow surface was very hard, probably knife hard at the time.

I got complacent because it was the ski area and had been skiing similar terrain all week taking advantage of the meager snowfall we had been getting. Slopes of similar aspect had 6-8" of light wind blown snow in the gullies. Normally I would toss a rock or snow ball into the chute to "test" the snow surface but for some reason I just hopped off the cornice and knew immediately it was a mistake. I couldn't climb out so I made two turns, lost my edges and away I went. I slid over a small rock band and it pulled my skis off and put me head down and accelerating rapidly. About 200 vf down I hit a small tree with my back on the right side, went airborne, cartwheeled and slid to the flats at the bottom. After a long and very sketchy evac with two belay on the toboggan I wound up in the hospital with 5 broken and displaced ribs, scapula broken in two places, collapsed lung and a chest full of blood.

This whole incident has given me a new perspective on skiing steep, hard snow with exposure. I think I will still ski steeps but only in prime conditions like pow or corn and corn only with clean lines. I think most folks don't appreciate how fast you get going on hard snow in steep terrain and how utterly helpless you are(I knew it theoretically, but didn't really appreciate the consequences. Even if I had two whippets or an ice axe at the ready I don't think I could have arrested, it happens that fast. I can't even begin to think of how you could actually practice for an arrest in a realistic way with out putting yourself in danger. Maybe you could practice on belay in steep icy terrain.

Don't confuse objective hazards with subjective hazards.  Most of the precautionary methods discussed deal with subjective hazards.

I changed the title, I don't mean to confuse anyone.

Thanks all for the thoughtful replies.

Lowell-
I've used the ice axe technique for resting on steep terrain. I've only ridden with an ice axe in hand 2 times, once on Shuksan and once at Cascade Pass and both times it was more useful to stop, plant the axe and either clip it or just hang on it so I wasn't putting my trust solely in holding an edge on frozen corn.

I actually find skinning to be scarier than descending and have pulled out my axe more often to clip it, take the skis off, and continue on boots.

The only falls/slides that I've taken have been while ascending. One was mid kickturn when I had wandered off of an icy skin track onto an equally frozen corn pitch. I was able to arrest quickly with a whippet but it could have been much worse. The other was trying to traverse a gully in spring slush on top of hard corn when the slush gave out from under me and I started sliding with that section of the skin track. It was more embarassing than anything but could have been dangerous if it hadn't been a gentle gully.

What about traverses? I think as a splitboarder I might be allergic to them, I'd rather get up something steep and ride back to the trailhead but the reality of it is there are a lot of interesting mountains out there that I wouldn't get to see if I only climb stuff that I can ski back to the car from. I was on Eldorado last weekend (without skis, big mistake) and talked to two guys that were headed off on the Isolation traverse and two others that made the Forbidden traverse. Both of those look really interesting but it makes it hard to ski what you climb.

What about skinning across glaciers? I've had serious conversations with several of my partners and we typically agree that the extra surface area of the skis makes punching a foot through a bridge unlikely and that if a partner took a fall it would be difficult or impossible to arrest the fall on skis. We have typically not roped up for glaciers if we're on skis but will use ropes more often if we're carrying the skis.

I don't do much super steep stuff in the bc, so this all gets a bit easier for me. My approach is somewhat similar to avajane's though I suspect I'm dialing it back a bit further - perhaps calibrated to our respective skill and risk tolerance levels.

I recall being a bit nervous my first time going into the SW chutes - I was with Silas and GregM, having met them at the P&R the evening before, and none of us was 100% positive we were heading to the right spot, but we were pretty sure. The top, before you roll over and can see the whole slope below you to the flat-ish spot at the bottom of the run, was still frozen, and it was quite unnerving to me to commit, imagining the challenge of changing over and climbing back out if we had screwed up.

The comments about arresting (or not) on icy surface are interesting and important. I learned to ski at downhill areas in NH/ME, and spent a lot of time on "frozen granular" surface conditions (when they said "ice" on the snow report, they meant water ice - we skied some of that too!), often on slopes that had been meticulously groomed so were smooth, but were also hard and slick. The only way I learned to recover from a fall was to get my skis below me asap and get back up onto them!! We of course didn't have whippets or ice axes, but I share the skepticism noted about about succeeding in an arrest with them. The right answer is simply not to fall, but of course things happen and having a well-trained instinctual response of getting skis under you and getting back up onto them is a good idea (I've watched eastern skiers do this on slopes steeper than I was willing to venture onto, fwiw). I think you have to earn this at the ski area in really crappy conditions. I would still not want to count on it while above hazards like cliffs or whatnot.

I also learned how to manage edging on really hard icy surface while descending - I had a repeat of this at Whistler in December this season and it took a few turns to regain my composure and engage those rusty skills and feel more fully in control. It is a learned skill.

But I don't miss skiing hard icy snow so I would greatly prefer to wait for when I have pretty good reason to believe that we'll have the sort of "prime conditions" to which Aaron refers. This makes me wonder if I'd ever take on something like the Park Headwall via the traverse, at least w/o one of the belay or downclimb approaches.

But I'm fairly far over toward the "weeny meadow skipper" end of the spectrum, so I think my biggest contribution to a thread like this is WRT what I learned from a young adulthood paying good money to ski ice with high winds and below 0 F temps...

damn aaron, i feel ya, having slid fast and out of control myself.
scary ride
bF

I took a long uncontrolled slide in March on this year skiing at Mission Ridge. It resulted in a pretty violent potentially life threatening injury.
[/quote

My daughter took a scary fall on hard steep snow last year and didn't stop till she hit a tree as well - but luckily hit it just right and was uninjured.

Years ago I remember tearing down an Alpine Meadows slope to catch up to and stop a sliding skier wearing "wet look" clothing and heading for the trees.

I was night skiing Hayak in the 80's when the bumps under the chair were so iced up that not a soul was skiing them. After a few runs on the roundabout beginner traverse I started skiing them slowly. With youthful confidence I soon started skiing them faster and eventually took a fall. I slid past 2 life towers fighting to stop and desperately trying to break off my safety straps to keep the skis from hacking me up. One finally broke and I ended up flipping over and digging my hands and arms in and giving myself a 3rd degree forearm in the process. I found my ski a couple of hours later stuck against a building at the base. Hayak isn't even steep!

I know how easy it is to pick up speed on hard snow. I like my ice ax much better that two ski poles on steep bootpacks. One failed step can throw you.

Being that I continue to get slower and more conservative as I get older, I viewed this thread as likely being a good read for me rather than there being anything of value that I could contribute for the cause.

But as I read over the contributions to the thread, and as Lowell’s tactic’s 2 and 3 point out, there are lots of instances where folks use and/or could use a belay rope to mitigate actual or perceived risk. I still, too, find a piece of rope a useful backcountry ski tool.

I have 100’ length of 6mm perlon cord along with a couple of ‘biners and a couple of short runners that live in my pack on all but the most benign tours. I mostly use it to belay myself off while investigating snow stability and/or surface conditions on steeper pitches in case my footing fails me, regardless of whether the snow surface is too hard/steep for good footing, or the snow falls away beneath my feet. I have used it numerous times, and have “body bombed” a slope to failure while belayed more than once. I find it especially reassuring when approaching chutes or questionable slopes from above.

The one thing that I do with the rope that I have not seen or heard of anyone else do (maybe because it seems a bit goofy) is that once finished doing all the stability testing that I need to be more confident that a slope is not going slide out from underneath me, I make sure all the knots are taken out of the upper end of the rope and then, while still attached to the rope, I ski to the bottom of the pitch, dragging the single strand down behind me.

My logic on this is, before putting the rope away, why not drag it down while still attached to me just in case it turns out that I have erred and the slope goes. If I am buried at least my partner(s) should find following the rope faster than using my beacon to find me. A nice little side benefit is that the rope is really easy to coil after being drug downhill for a few hundred feet – all the twists and biases are gone

I also carry this rope on fall recon hikes while looking for new lines to ski later and find it handy for doing short rappels down steep sections rather than climbing around them.

I'm surprised no one has ever been hit and injured or killed by rockfall along the groomer under Bomber Cliffs at Mission Ridge. I've seen chunks of fractured basalt weighing as much as 50# come tumbling down and across bouncing waist to head high.

My logic on this is, before putting the rope away, why not drag it down while still attached to me just in case it turns out that I have erred and the slope goes. If I am buried at least my partner(s) should find following the rope faster than using my beacon to find me. A nice little side benefit is that the rope is really easy to coil after being drug downhill for a few hundred feet – all the twists and biases are gone

Makes sense to me.

Did you ever own one of these?



Add length markers to your rope and you could market a hot new product.  Call it an avalanche cord. 



The picture shows an avalanche cord I bought at REI in the 1970s. The cord is 100 feet long with markers every 10 feet. The markers have an arrow pointing to the end where you tie in.

I don't think I ever used it, but I'm glad I never threw it away. It's a cool old relic.

Clearly everyone's risk management system is different.  Reasons for differences could include expertise and experience (real or imagined), personal ambition, group dynamics, and who knows what else.  

The one time I looked down the Park Headwall with ambitions to ski it I had a serious reality check.  Things I thought about in no particular order:  I was already pretty tired/snow on the summit was cold and crusty and I had no idea what it was going to be like down there/maybe I could ski it while holding my axe?/mega bergschrund below=not a place to experiment with ice axe in hand if it is worse than it looks/Hans Saari and Carl Skoog.  Our party only did the 1st of Lowell's checklist before deciding to descend to the Cockscomb.  

Using Shred's checklist that day, the Park Headwall and I would have failed 3 (no safe exit until below the bergschrund), 4 (if ice I won't know until I'm on it -> Hans Saari), and possibly 6 (I was tired).  

Finally, I'm also not sure if everyone in that group is as strong as they get with all those assets Shred listed.  I know at least one where perhaps their ambition and Contour Courage often overrides what I would consider good judgement.  Then again, they seem to get away with bold moves in big places all the time so maybe I'm just getting lamer in my old age.

By the way, over in the Watson Traverse thread I added a 5th item to my list (after re-reading the Hans Saari account):

5. Wear a harness so you can secure yourself to the slope if you need to place an ice axe or ice screw.

This is pretty obvious, but it makes you think about what you'd have to do in a sticky situation.

(Also, if you do check out the slope on belay, the belayer needs to have a totally bombproof anchor. The last thing you want is to pull him/her off the summit with you.)

Since I've never skied on belay or belayed a skier I've never experienced the force that it takes to keep someone from getting swept away if the slope does pop. I know that's a common technique for ski patrol so someone here must have felt it, how secure of a stance does the belayer need?

Hop-
You sell yourself short.

flash mobs with go-pros and a popular public format to post. The 'social proof ' heuristic is a strong driving force within us humans which is why it creates decision making traps in potentially hazardous situations with sometimes tragic results.   Look what was done to our Grand- daddy Kanaroo over here. I just assume that they knew that no one was below them when they triggered all those wet slides. One barometer for risk that I use is to ask, would I take this risk if I was going solo? If not, why would I take that risk with the camera rolling? 

I'm not sure if I completely understand the Kanaroo reference but with regards to your last barometer for risk: going solo I basically stick to the meadow-skippiest terrain possible because my margin for error is tiny - I must be able to ski out of or self-rescue from ANY/EVERY incident I put myself in.  With a partner, you have an added safety net: someone to belay you, someone to bounce ideas off of, a 2nd opinion, and worse case scenario someone to dig you out/stabilize/rescue you. 

Of course, others may think differently and that's fine too. 

Jason4: I may sell myself short, who knows. I do sometimes think I should man up and ski bigger lines, the ones that lots of other people go up and come down all the time. And someday I might get more comfortable with that again (I was much bolder - or more likely more naive - when I was younger), but definitely not with certain people in the party.

When you get back from your whale hunt we should get out again. I feel like I'm more interested in seeing new places than I am skiing crazy lines. Krissy has declared next year to be the year of the coulior so I'm not sure what that will bring but I'm always happy to make hippy turns.

I'm not sure if I completely understand the Kanaroo reference

thesnowtroopers.com/2014/washington-pass...aroo-hunting-take-1/
I believe freeski is referencing this tour.
Some really dangerous stuff going on...

[quote author=hop link=topic=31855.msg134073#msg134073 date=1402341764  I do sometimes think I should man up and ski bigger lines, the ones that lots of other people go up and come down all the time.  And someday I might get more comfortable with that again (I was much bolder - or more likely more naive - when I was younger), but definitely not with certain people in the party. 

the 'social proof' heuristic trap comes into play when we base our decision making on what other people are doing. This introduces a thinking bias and important cues  required for hazard analysis can be misinterpreted or even missed altogether resulting in an increased probability for an accident. Just because someone else is taking a high risk does not mean you have to. Many don't make it back.

One thing's for sure - if I had been falling for that social proof trap I would have a lot more "classic" steep gnar descents under my belt by now. Most of my friends that frequent the steep, gnarly, and exposed don't bother inviting me anymore since 99% of the time my response is "thanks but no thanks, you guys have fun".

Since I've never skied on belay or belayed a skier I've never experienced the force that it takes to keep someone from getting swept away if the slope does pop.  I know that's a common technique for ski patrol so someone here must have felt it, how secure of a stance does the belayer need?

In ski mountaineering I think belays are more likely to be used for protecting against a fall on hard snow/ice rather than protection against avalanche hazard. At least, that's when I would most likely want to use one.

Using the Park Headwall as an example, if I wanted to belay somebody so they could check out the face from above, I'd probably bury a picket in a T-trench and sit on the flat summit area to belay them. I think a buried picket would be strong enough. The snow/ice on the summit is typically too soft for ice screws but too hard to use skis as an anchor.

Makes sense to me.

Did you ever own one of these?

Add length markers to your rope and you could market a hot new product.  Call it an avalanche cord. 

The picture shows an avalanche cord I bought at REI in the 1970s. The cord is 100 feet long with markers every 10 feet. The markers have an arrow pointing to the end where you tie in.

I don't think I ever used it, but I'm glad I never threw it away. It's a cool old relic.

Interesting.

Didn't ever have one, but years ago I saw something similar which also had a spring expanding ball about a foot in diameter that was attached to a avalanche cord like that and was designed to be attached to one's pack an deployed with a rip cord.
I have also heard of old timers tying plastic beach bottles to their avy cords, presumably to give them better flotation in an avy.

Obviously pre-beacon technology, eh?