New 22-Designs NTN Binding

Check out this Link . 22 Designs apparently is licensed to use the ntn patents for this binding.

Glad to see another vote of confidence in the New Norm, although the binding looks a little weighty for my taste.

There's a silly long multi-page discussion of it going on over at Earn Your Turns, if anyone is interested. Thanks for the post.

Duly noted. Here's the thread .

I have to say I'm glad there is development here, but disappointed at what I see.

I'd much rather see a better tech toe tele binding that ditches the messy cables and engages the boot--at the duckbutt of NTN boots--when in ski mode and the activity of the binding is actually the activity in the boot and perhaps a rigid and slightly flexible piece of carbon fiber.

This would be ultra lightweight.

I'm not buying into NTN until they figure out how to make the boots light, perform well and modestly priced. Current boot design is really holding telemark back right now.

I'd much rather see a better tech toe tele binding that ditches the messy cables and engages the boot--at the duckbutt of NTN boots--when in ski mode and the activity of the binding is actually the activity in the boot and perhaps a rigid and slightly flexible piece of carbon fiber.

Right on!  A prototype of tech-toe + carbon plate has been sitting on my workbench to be completed ;D  Web has seen a part of it.  Good to hear somebody has a similar idea, though it is rather obvious anyway.  I'd better move on to on-snow tests.  I'll post a pic when it is ready for photo, at least.

My Bro-in-law has been working on this very idea.



He calls it the Dy1.  Fusing the O1 and the dynafit toe.  However, BD holds a patent on their touring mechanism which he thinks gets int he way of commercially marketing his design.  Lame!

He uses F1 boots and has created a cleat… similar to a mtn bike shoe cleat that clips into the touring mechanism when he's ready to go into ski mode.  Very simple, elegant, and it works.  He skis great and the binding is solid… however, he tore through the sole of his F1 boots because he worked on them a little too much and they were a bit thin by the time he screwed the cleat piece in.

Cool eh?  Tele needs this kind of innovation! 

I'm not buying into NTN until they figure out how to make the boots light, perform well and modestly priced. Current boot design is really holding telemark back right now.

My Scarpa NTN boots are more versatile, cheaper, and lighter than their 75mm equivalent. What are you talking about?? ???

My Scarpa NTN boots are more versatile, cheaper, and lighter than their 75mm equivalent.  What are you talking about??   ???

Yeah, but compare the lightest NTN boot from Scarpa to the lightest AT boot from Scarpa. 7lbs a pair vs 3lbs a pair.

I have the NTN freedom and the Scarpa TX pro.  I also have BD's Push and Custom boots.  For those I use the O1 binding and the Axle. 

I agree that boots are a big part of the lack of innovation for tele.  For what I like, I personally wouldn't advise anyone to go NTN right now over what is offered in 75mm.  The small advantages of no duckbill and a slightly lighter boot haven't made me decide to take the Freedom and Tx Pros into the backcountry.  I prefer, for backcountry use, my Push boots and my O1 bindings.  I prefer for the resort my Custom boots and the O1. 

The technology is out there to make a really light and powerful tele boot.  No one wants to invest and they are killing their own market.

This might be the year I buy my first AT set up for multi day traverses in the North Cascades.

I would use my NTN set up more if the TX pro were stiffer.  It's too soft for me.  I haven't tried the TX Comp, but it didn't have the tech fittings so I didn't buy it.  Now I'm just waiting to see what is developed next before I buy again

Yeah, but compare the lightest NTN boot from Scarpa to the lightest AT boot from Scarpa. 7lbs a pair vs 3lbs a pair.

Apples and oranges.  I am referring to TELEMARK boots.  You can't telemark turn in an Alien and they're certainly not affordable either. 

If you want stupid light AND stupid cheap I give you the Scarpa Flippie but they don't ski very well. 

I have the NTN freedom and the Scarpa TX pro.  I also have BD's Push and Custom boots.  For those I use the O1 binding and the Axle. 

I agree that boots are a big part of the lack of innovation for tele.  For what I like, I personally wouldn't advise anyone to go NTN right now over what is offered in 75mm.  The small advantages of no duckbill and a slightly lighter boot haven't made me decide to take the Freedom and Tx Pros into the backcountry.  I prefer, for backcountry use, my Push boots and my O1 bindings.  I prefer for the resort my Custom boots and the O1. 

The technology is out there to make a really light and powerful tele boot.  No one wants to invest and they are killing their own market.

This might be the year I buy my first AT set up for multi day traverses in the North Cascades.

I would use my NTN set up more if the TX pro were stiffer.  It's too soft for me.  I haven't tried the TX Comp, but it didn't have the tech fittings so I didn't buy it.  Now I'm just waiting to see what is developed next before I buy again

I wonder if there really is a market for an Alien-esque tele boot.  Rando racing is a big deal in Europe and probably growing in NA (?) while tele is fringe everywhere.  If the market for a $700 tele boot is tiny, the market for a $1700 tele boot must be microscopic.  Pure speculation but I'm guessing the economics for that investment wouldn't add up. 

Aside from the stiffness and a pound or so of weight, what features are missing from the NTN combo vs. your 75mm combo?  Realizing that "feel" is totally subjective, the objective advantages of the NTN setup you're using seem pretty strong.  You're saving ~500g on boots and ~180-250g on bindings (per manufacturer's specs), have 99% step in, semi-release, brakes, and a much more mountain-travel-friendly boot toe.  The O1 may have a totally free pivot whereas the Freedom is not quite 100% free but certainly free enough.   

I also really wish the TX-comp had tech fittings.  Scarpa's really blowing it here IMO. 

Right on!  A prototype of tech-toe + carbon plate has been sitting on my workbench to be completed ;D  Web has seen a part of it.  Good to hear somebody has a similar idea, though it is rather obvious anyway.  I'd better move on to on-snow tests.  I'll post a pic when it is ready for photo, at least.

My cave brain never thought of it!  Thanks for keeping hope alive for us less mechanically imaginative and/or with tired knees.

Yeah, but compare the lightest NTN boot from Scarpa to the lightest AT boot from Scarpa. 7lbs a pair vs 3lbs a pair.

No wonder I am always so wiped!

I wonder if there really is a market for an Alien-esque tele boot. ...

Aside from the stiffness and a pound or so of weight, what features are missing from the NTN combo vs. your 75mm combo?  Realizing that "feel" is totally subjective, the objective advantages of the NTN setup you're using seem pretty strong.  You're saving ~500g on boots and ~180-250g on bindings (per manufacturer's specs), have 99% step in, semi-release, brakes, and a much more mountain-travel-friendly boot toe.  The O1 may have a totally free pivot whereas the Freedom is not quite 100% free but certainly free enough.   

I also really wish the TX-comp had tech fittings.  Scarpa's really blowing it here IMO. 

I'm not much of a marketing guy… But my attitude is, "If you build it they will come." There is a lot of negative energy out there proclaiming the death of telemark and the subsequent loss of investment. I feel if we would get more investment in bindings and boots for the BC minded, we would see more people sticking with or trying out the sport.

For me, what is missing from the NTN set up I currently have is probably power. The freedom binding just doesn't feel as "active" to me as the O1. The Tx Pro is just too soft for my liking. I still use the NTN set up on powder days.

I **love the boots for walking. I love the step in nature of the bindings. But when it comes to how they ski together… which is the point of ski boots and bindings… they just are not as powerful as BD Pushes and O1 bindings. They aren't terrible by any means. It's just that I find myself going with the 75mm options more frequently these days.

One other problem with NTN is you have to take extra care that snow doesn't get into the binding when you are stepping in. Otherwise it can easily switch to tour mode when you are charging hard. That's happened to me twice.

I have a fried who tele's with me and jokes about How awesome and comfortable my boots are and how great they are for walking and how I can step in to the bindings, but when it comes to skiing…. kinda not much to rave about

If the tx pro were stiffer and the freedom felt more active, I would be sold I'm sure.

[...]
He uses F1 boots and has created a cleat… similar to a mtn bike shoe cleat that clips into the touring mechanism [...]
Cool eh?  Tele needs this kind of innovation! 

Very cool. I've had a similar thought clicking into my Shimanos.

Also, I'm looking forward to seeing your prototype in action Kenji.

I'm not much of a marketing guy… But my attitude is, "If you build it they will come."  There is a lot of negative energy out there proclaiming the death of telemark and the subsequent loss of investment.  I feel if we would get more investment in bindings and boots for the BC minded, we would see more people sticking with or trying out the sport.

For me, what is missing from the NTN set up I currently have is probably power.  The freedom binding just doesn't feel as "active" to me as the O1.  The Tx Pro is just too soft for my liking.  I still use the NTN set up on powder days. 

I **love the boots for walking.  I love the step in nature of the bindings.  But when it comes to how they ski together… which is the point of ski boots and bindings… they just are not as powerful as BD Pushes and O1 bindings.  They aren't terrible by any means.  It's just that I find myself going with the 75mm options more frequently these days.

One other problem with NTN is you have to take extra care that snow doesn't get into the binding when you are stepping in.  Otherwise it can easily switch to tour mode when you are charging hard.  That's happened to me twice. 

I have a fried who tele's with me and jokes about How awesome and comfortable my boots are and how great they are for walking and how I can step in to the bindings, but when it comes to skiing…. kinda not much to rave about

If the tx pro were stiffer and the freedom felt more active, I would be sold I'm sure. 

Every tele binding I've ever tried has had some sort of compromise and after all these years I'm pretty convinced there is no perfect solution that will work for everyone. 

I'm assuming you've got blue springs at 5 in your Freedoms.  That's what I'm running in mine and I'm by no means a big guy, but I've found the Freedom to be slightly less active than the Freeride (where I ran blue at 3 or red at 1).  I think a stiffer spring might help those in your situation but who knows if/when Rotte will offer such a thing. 

I will say the Freeride with red springs offers a lot more power than the Freedom w/ blue springs maxed out so that might be an angle worth looking into.  The Freeride does have a couple of advantages over the Freedom (swap-ability between skis and adjustability fore-aft) but the tour mode is crap compared to the Freedom. 

Freedoms going into walk mode is pretty much user error (allowing snow to get in there).  I've had it happen to me a couple of times too and it's always been after transitioning from tour to ski.  I try to remember to really smash on the pink lever w/ my pole grip in pile driver mode to make sure it's all the way down.  At least it's not as finicky as tech toes and snow/ice buildup!  I've seen some catastrophic (as in the ski and skin are still out there somewhere) failures of a "locked" toe due to ice build-up that went unnoticed. 

As for investing - after almost two decades involved w/ tele the main thing I've learned about potential customers is that the majority of them are cheap and stubborn, therefore unwilling to experiment with new ideas.  Seems like people in general are also inherently lazy and AT gear is so light and efficient nowadays so there's no reason to tele anymore unless you want to.  It's not like it's the ticket to the backcountry that it once was.  If you spend $100k on designing and building a run of Alien-esque tele boots I bet you'll have six people buying them at retail and a few dozen more waiting for them to show up on Steep and Cheap for a net loss of about $90k.

...If you spend $100k on designing and building a run of Alien-esque tele boots I bet you'll have six people buying them at retail and a few dozen more waiting for them to show up on Steep and Cheap for a net loss of about $90k. 

I'd be one of those in line at the retail store.  All it would take would be to add back in the bellows.  I just bought my first pair of Aliens (the cheap version) and I'm switching to AT for summer skiing.  I prefer to tele in the backcountry, but the weight penalty of tele is changing my mind. 

why would you tele if you didn't want to ~ why wouldn't you tele if you did?  I don't understand switching out unless you're ski mountaineering near the limits of control without a heel-piece or if predictable release is a critical feature for you.  I don't expect alpine types to get it, but there's no going back once you do (IMO).

As for 'power', we've been here before.  The physics don't support the notion.  What an active or 'powerful'  tele binding does is to force the skier to weight the rear foot, something that can be done without all the spring resistance.  I loved the HH in the mid to high range, and learned to smoke a line that way, but have found that with technique (predominantly a tighter stance), a more 'neutral' binding is just as fine (and tours better).  I chock it up to personal evolution.

Setting 'power' aside for a moment, NTN was revolutionary because it gave essentially a four point contact of the boot to the ski, instead of two with the duckbill, thereby relieving the boot and ankle of the near impossible forces to dominate ski edging under dynamic loads.  I haven't adopted NTN, because I predominantly ski wild and fluffy stuff, but if I skied firm as a rule, I'd be all over NTN, but I'd likely set it up as 'neutral' as I could.

 I haven't adopted NTN, because I predominantly ski wild and fluffy stuff, but if I skied firm as a rule, I'd be all over NTN, but I'd likely set it up as 'neutral' as I could.

(This season aside) I predominantly ski wild and fluffy stuff too, and the difference in control with NTN is very noticeable there too. Not just on harder snow.

YMMV.

(This season aside) I predominantly ski wild and fluffy stuff too, and the difference in control with NTN is very noticeable there too.  Not just on harder snow. 

YMMV. 

Agreed - the performance upgrade (for me) has been noticeable all around, both with the Freeride and the Freedom. I was coming from 7TM though, which was notoriously a bit on the sloppy side.

Yeah, but compare the lightest NTN boot from Scarpa to the lightest AT boot from Scarpa. 7lbs a pair vs 3lbs a pair.

Actually, Scarpa is still making the T4, a simple, two buckle touring boot. 1500gm. www.scarpa.net/en/t4.html

Actually, Scarpa is still making the T4, a simple, two buckle touring boot. 1500gm. www.scarpa.net/en/t4.html

I think that is the weight per boot.  6.5# for pair.

NTN has much better lateral stiffness than most 75mm cable bindings (e.g. HH)  This results in a much more precise feel, quicker engagement and better edge hold.  I liked the release feature of the NTN and have had several releases from it.   I didn't like the fact that I managed to rip-apart the sub-frame on day 10 after a hard landing in the terrain park.

The only comparable 75mm binding that I've skied was the Bishop/Bomber, which is amazingly rigid and precise.  After a long absence, the Bishop is being manufactured again www.bishopbindings.com/shop/the-bishop-20    Best paired with a burly boot like the T-Race.

I haven't skied the new version -- the only things I didn't like about the orginal Bishop was the weight and a little bit of toe-rise when skiing backwards.

The new 22-Designs offering looks promising and I would expect it should hold up to hard charging better than the Rottefella offerings.

It's too bad Scarpa stopped making the F1 and F1-Carbon -- those boots combined with the Telemark-Tech system were close to the weight and tourability of light dynafit setups.   The ankle rotation of the F1 boots in tour mode makes a suprisingly big difference in ease of travel.   It's too bad that Scarpa's NTN offerings don't even include a boot with as much ankle freedom as even the Mastrale/Rush, much less the Alien.

I am on TX Pros and Freedoms. For the most part it is an upgrade from the energy/01 setup I had before. With the big steps forward in non-duckbill boots, release, no rocker-launch and semi-stepin with brakes I do not see myself going back to 75mm. I will not consider the 22 designs bindings unless they release as that was a big selling point for NTN, I want the safety margin for avalanches or a nasty fall. The freedoms seem fine binding wise, not perfect but mostly good enough.
That said the boots need some updates, the TX line needs to get the tour mechanism from the Masestrale line. I also find the TX-Pros a bit lacking in the stiffness department, but wanted the Tech insert option for TTS. If Scarpa releases a new TX comp with inserts and a better tour mode, I will pay up, but I would not be interested in an alien like boot, it would be too soft for my needs.

Based on the responses, it looks like heavy "tele" is here to stay.

.., but I would not be interested in an alien like boot, it would be too soft for my needs.

Have you actually skied the Alien 1.0 ? The carbon cuff isn't as stiff as an alpine boot, but it is stiffer than my old MegaRides.

It sounds like what people want from Scarpa is an NTN version of the Alien (lighter, summer, meadow-skipping, ski-mountaineering) AND Freedom (extremo hard chargers), both with tech inserts for the TTS/tech people.

I'm all for it. Pretty much everyone would win except for those 75mm holdouts, and they won't be around for long anyways.

Funny how people's priorities are though; I just spent a couple weeks touring in my TX-comps and only once put my boots in walk mode.

Re. stiffness - the only place I don't like the softness of the TX-pro is the bellows. Cuff and tongue-wise they're fine. Where are other folks noticing the softness?

Re. stiffness - the only place I don't like the softness of the TX-pro is the bellows.  Cuff and tongue-wise they're fine.  Where are other folks noticing the softness? 

I must be a freak cause I ski the TX-Pros in walk mode on 2nd gen NTN binders on a pair of K2 188cm Hardsides. The boots seem flexy fore and aft (skiing in walk mode), but as Randy says, plenty laterally stiff to me. As an old school leather boot guy this is a vast upgrade in stiffness though.
I went out of my comfort zone today and locked the boots in upright mode today and forced myself to become accustom to the stiffer drive. Other than the back of the boot digging in my calf at times, I may get used to the bigger drive power, but it's hard to believe that anyone would categorize the TX-Pro as soft and I'm a big hard charging guy on a big heavy ski!
To each their own I guess :

Lateral stiffness on my TX pros is fine, but more is always better in that area. The bellows are way too soft and are easily overpowered. The cuff stiffness is ok but hard to use because the bellows are too soft. I would like to see the bellows stiffness go up a lot (like double) and the cuff stiffness go up a smaller amount maybe 25%. Keep in mind I am 6'3" 190lbs, ski big stiff skis and like to go fast. Maybe bellows stiffness should scale with boot size so my 28.5s are stiffer than a pair of 26s.

I'm a big guy, almost 6' 5" and 220#, and when I started NTNing with Freerides, Tx Pros and Llhasa Pows I didn't think the sole flex was too soft. I had a used pair with about 20-30 days on them, I did think they got soft once they had about 200 days on them, but that's to be expected. I like my Comps better, don't seem much stiffer, and they still have a sweet, smooth flex. I think the top buckle is superfluous on the Pro and Comp and a wider and nicer Booster strap would be nice, like the one that came on the last generation red T Race.

I would be very interested in an NTN binding that uses the second heel and tech toe and still had the feature of the Freeride/Freedom.

I'm sized in between you guys in and just don't feel the bellows being an issue even at high alpine speeds. But in-area in the bumps it is handy to have a softer bellows. But that is another story.
As hop was saying that maybe the market window is so small that making a whole other boot stiffer to fit 6 tightwads is not feasible.
Just curious, but are you using the tx-pro for in and out skiing? I'm not sure I'm geared to use a stiffer boot, especially in the steeper chutes when you want to get on that front foot and not feel like having a frankenstein stance. I find quick feet essential and a stiffer bellows slows that IMO.