Dec. 3, Bagley Lakes (continuation of Nov. 16....)

Bluebird day, snow kinda wind-affected in places.  I took this from Pan Face, inbounds. 

After reading the Nov. 16 thread I see there are a few people that have made up-tracks in this area, however the one I saw yesterday takes the cake.

Consider this the guidebook. There's no excuse for making a skintrack up any of these slopes or chutes. Use the road for the up. The life you save will probably be your own.

I took this from Pan Face, inbounds. 

Ok Judgy McJudgerson... Nothing was moving yesterday. The new snow was bonded to the rain crust. Small crowds. The person who made that track dropped the chute once already and...speculating here...made the determination it was safe to climb back up. And it was. Safe.  Well safe enough anyway. On that day at that time.

People dropping from above are obligated to make every effort to avoid sluffing the people below them. Especially in a crowded zone.

Be cool everybody.

Admin should move this (and the other one) to Random Tracks or Weak Layers.

Weak Layers

Moved, since it's not a TR.

And to be honest, this kind of "look at these idiots" threads don't really have a ton of usefulness, in my opinion, they just serve to get people pissed off. There are better ways to educate.

Moved, since it's not a TR.

And to be honest, this kind of "look at these idiots" threads don't really have a ton of usefulness, in my opinion, they just serve to get people pissed off.  There are better ways to educate.

This. And I would add that "idiot" threads are fears projected onto a large screen. Embrace death. Our lives are meaningless. Or whatever.

There is value in this type of posting. Navigation and safe travel are some of the biggest challenges for beginners. Feedback helps. Wasn't there an interactive educational web game linked here last year that taught up track route selection? Just take this as a real life round.

This Table Mountain zone has a well established up track: the road to Artist Point. The road is the local convention. It's convention because it's the safest route up in terms of objective and subjective hazards. It's also the easiest route from Bagley Lakes to any line pictured (except diamond trees, right, which can also be approached from herman saddle). Convention isn't law but it's important in a heavily used area. Be predictable. There are several common lines in there where descenders can't even see folks on such an up track until they've dropped in.

Beyond safety is preserving real estate. Who wants to trip over a skin track speed bump in the descent route? The pictured skin track put speed bumps in at least 5 different lines. It's just inconsiderate to ruin terrain unnecessarily, especially in a high traffic area. There's a better way. Find it.

There is value in this type of posting. Navigation and safe travel are some of the biggest challenges for beginners. Feedback helps. Wasn't there an interactive educational web game linked here last year that taught up track route selection? Just take this as a real life round.

Fair enough, which is why the post is still up - like I said, my opinion. Feedback helps, though in my experience there are more effective ways of changing people's habits than the "idiot" threads.

Consider this the guidebook.  There's no excuse for making a skintrack up any of these slopes or chutes.  Use the road for the up.  The life you save will probably be your own. 


I think this is mock concern.

But anyways...

What is the name of the rock outcropping above the skin track starting point? I have heard it called "shipstern rock" or "the prow"

And what is the name of the line that drops in just to skiers left of it?

If after riding that line an individual wanted to do a few laps below that outcrop could you not make an argument that the safest line is right up through the tree band?

Look at all the debris all the way across the basin. Are you not equally exposed on your ascent back to the road across the basin?

I for one don't like to feel like I am aggravating everyone but unless there is a real danger to myself, my partners or others I am going to do what I want.

This is complicated I know because we all have a different idea of acceptable risk.

If the snowpack is safe why would anyone spend almost an hour doing the tour around table when they can skin straight up and do a lap every 20 minutes?

So what is the issue? Is it one of safety, convention, or etiquette?

I'd like to hear your thoughts

I'm on my work computer and it's blocking the image but I assume it's the one that's been making the rounds on Facebook over the last few days.  If it is then I agree that it is a skin track in very poor taste as it makes a wreck of the landing in Heart Shaped Box which is the first line to skier's right of the Nose (I've alse heard the prow and the buttress but never shipwreck rock).  Heart Shaped Box and the main chute (Blueberry 2, next main line skiers right) are both very prone to slide, I've been caught in there myself (remember April Fools on Table Mountain?).  It is local convention and etiquette to not skin directly up that path for the safety of the skinner and skiers descending.  I would not be happy if I stomped the mandatory air into HSB just to get tossed on the trough of the skin track trying to keep myself together at speed.

I don't expect too many people that want to ski any of the lines between Cheap Date and Little AK to be very patient with people skinning up the line.  Bagley Bowl is getting too crowded and poor skin track etiquette is going to make things worse. 

Like I said in the previous thread, feel free to stop me in the skintrack to say hi or ask for beta, instead of just bashing people who are seen as "doing it wrong" I'll do my best to help improve things for everyone. 

So what is the issue?  Is it one of safety, convention, or etiquette?

I'd like to hear your  thoughts

All of the above.
I never like skinning below other folks skiing down, even in stable conditions.
Why trash a nice slope with a skin track?
If one person does it others will follow, making more skin tracks up the slope.

I've heard several people say that folks are being taught to climb what they ski, that seems like an incredibly bad idea from an avalanche perspective. Why spend 10 times the amount of time on the suspect slope if there is a safe way up? I was taught that limiting exposure was a good habit.

Welcome, Hop. Glad to see that one of TGR's best has dipped a toe into TAY.

("Hey Genius" might not be the best impedance match, but the message is succinct and important ).

This is why TAY is a great site. Were having a reasonable discussion on a topic not all agree on. This is way better than red faced arguments in the bc when encountering odd behavior.

If after riding that line an individual wanted to do a few laps below that outcrop could you not make an argument that the safest line is right up through the tree band?

Look at all the debris all the way across the basin.  Are you not equally exposed on your ascent back to the road across the basin?

First, that "tree band" is really just a hand full of soon to disapear shrubs, anchoring nothing in particular. The exposure is from well above the trees. You are quickly into a 40-45 degree open slope, exposed 100% of the time, up and down. The quick route across the basin would cross potential runouts for only large slides and the road above is very safe.

Second, if you skin or boot right back up the line you choke the descent route for only you or only at your pace. Others have to wait at the top while you struggle up a steep, exposed skin track. It's selfish. This is a high trafic area, even midweek.

Third, your skin track ruins a whole bunch of terrain. Again, its selfish.

It's actually a pretty quick lap around, not a circumnavigation of Table.

If you want to lap in the manner described go further out where you affect only yourself.

All of the above.
I never like skinning below other folks skiing down, even in stable conditions.
Why trash a nice slope with a skin track?
If one person does it others will follow, making more skin tracks up the slope.

I've heard several people say that folks are being taught to climb what they ski, that seems like an incredibly bad idea from an avalanche perspective. Why spend 10 times the amount of time on the suspect slope if there is a safe way up? I was taught that limiting exposure was a good habit.

x2 on all of this.  I don't enjoy skinning up slopes that others are skiing down, and along with the aesthetics of setting a nice up track, it should always be done in a manner that minimizes the inherent risk regardless of the hazard level.  At some level, the "climb what to ski" makes sense as it presents the best opportunity to assess the snow conditions along an intended line,- ie but only as far as the up track representing the safest route and minimizes time spent in a hazard zone. 

For better or for worse, there has been an explosion of people interested in getting out and touring the backcountry and the usual spots that might see some light traffic even 5-6 years ago, are now guaranteed to have multiple user groups on any given day of the week.  Finding areas to be lonesome in is certainly possible, but drive times and ease of access focus many people into the same spots.  It's important to educate those among us with less experience - in a constructive way- on both proper backcountry etiquette and safe travel techniques.  

  It's important to educate those among us with less experience - in a constructive way- on both proper backcountry etiquette and safe travel techniques.  

I agree and think most reasonable people agree with that...easier said than done though...and how do you do that?

# mentoring?
# guidebook showing recommended skin tracks for popular areas.? God forbid but to each his own.
# Backcountry " police"  directing traffic at popular choke points. Some TAYers would love to have "badges"
# Internet shaming ( Hop's current approach)
# Internet Whining (  Bagley lake Thread approach)
# Polite intervention by more experienced skiers. ( BillK and ACarey with their guns?)
# How To's on Internet blogs?

Joedabaker constantly nagging me, shaming me and giving me points out of 10 for my every skin tack selection and route I have made has certainly made me a nervous wreck when setting trail...

Although he did give me a perfect 10 once...bit like "Dancing with the Stars" but that was discounted by years of derision over a skin track that PNWBrit ( banned) and I once set and self-proclaimed  "professional grade" and he has derided ever since.

^^^^^Thanks Scotsman, but I wouldn't be caught dead skiing in that sh*tshow you guys have got going on over there....armed or not:)

Also, I'm not up on the latest "protocols", nor do I care to be.

All or none of the above?

#mentoring
- probably the most chance of success. I am grateful to those that took me under their wing and helped me learn.  It's a continuous process; I'm still learning all the time and hopefully through thoughtful discussion can help others learn too.

# guidebook showing recommended skin tracks for popular areas.? God forbid but to each his own.
- Plausible but seems hard to do without extensive aerial recon pics and a tremendous amount of detail. It's one thing to have directions to a TH and a general sense of how to ascend and descend a slope, quite another to lay out an accurate uptrack (GPS waypoints notwithstanding).

# Backcountry " police"  directed traffic at popular choke points. Some TAYers would love to have "badges"
-Badges? Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!

# Internet shaming ( Hop's current approach)
-Shaming just makes people defensive. Outside of a "don't do this dumbass" sort of vibe, the posting of the above pic should be a sort of PSA to think about BC travel techniques with equal or greater importance to those we place on our nifty safety gear.

# Internet Whinning ( Bagley lake Thread approach)
-Whining isn't Winning, and while we can't all be winners, there's no need to be a loser.

# Polite intervention by more experienced skiers. ( BillK and ACarey with their guns?)
-Don't take your guns to town, son. Leave your guns at home Bill, don't take your guns to town.

# How To's on Internet blogs? -
I think it was mentioned in another thread, but the route selection website that was linked here last winter (I think in the weak layers somewhere) is the sort of thing that would certainly help increase awareness.

edit: here is the link: www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/online-cou...te-finding-exercises

Glad to see this has sparked some discussion.  Sorry if the "Hey Genius" ruffled some e-feathers.  I made this with TGR in mind but after reading through the Nov. 16 TR it seemed appropriate here. 

Ok Judgy McJudgerson... Nothing was moving yesterday. The new snow was bonded to the rain crust. Small crowds. The person who made that track dropped the chute once already and...speculating here...made the determination it was safe to climb back up. And it was. Safe.  Well safe enough anyway. On that day at that time.

People dropping from above are obligated to make every effort to avoid sluffing the people below them.  Especially in a crowded zone.

Be cool everybody.

Oh that was you?  Tsk tsk. 

I took that photo after my party made the skintrack out the Arm (almost to to top of Bill's Bulge - got stymied by sugar snow on top of rocks 5' from the top) earlier that day.  We decided to try the other side after lunch and that's what I saw heading over to the Blueberry Gate.

I agree that people dropping in from above are obligated to make every effort to avoid sluffing the people below them but when you have a group of people zig-zagging all over the lower half of that zone then it effectively blocks access from the top now doesn't it?  Do you expect everyone to just stop and wait up top all day while you yo-yo?  One party doing it wrong can mess it up for everyone else, no matter how "safe" it might have been.  I don't drive down one-way streets when there aren't any cars coming even though it's technically "safe" at the time.  I do my best to do it right and safely every time and not take shortcuts or mess things up for the rest of my fellow outdoor enthusiasts.     

There is value in this type of posting. Navigation and safe travel are some of the biggest challenges for beginners. Feedback helps. Wasn't there an interactive educational web game linked here last year that taught up track route selection? Just take this as a real life round.

This Table Mountain zone has a well established up track: the road to Artist Point. The road is the local convention. It's convention because it's the safest route up in terms of objective and subjective hazards. It's also the easiest route from Bagley Lakes to any line pictured (except diamond trees, right, which can also be approached from herman saddle). Convention isn't law but it's important in a heavily used area. Be predictable. There are several common lines in there where descenders can't even see folks on such an up track until they've dropped in.

Beyond safety is preserving real estate. Who wants to trip over a skin track speed bump in the descent route? The pictured skin track put speed bumps in at least 5 different lines. It's just inconsiderate to ruin terrain unnecessarily, especially in a high traffic area. There's a better way. Find it.

I agree with everything here 100%.  People in this zone also have the annoying tendency to ski the top half of their run and then do the super right traverse.  It wouldn't be nearly as bad if everyone used the same traverse but it seems everyone wants to make their own, leading to a million traverse lines where you could have just gone fall line down to the flats and gotten a longer run while being more out of the way while skinning back for your next lap. 

Consider this the guidebook.  There's no excuse for making a skintrack up any of these slopes or chutes.  Use the road for the up.  The life you save will probably be your own. 


I think this is mock concern.

But anyways...

What is the name of the rock outcropping above the skin track starting point?  I have heard it called "shipstern rock" or "the prow"

And what is the name of the line that drops in just to skiers left of it?

If after riding that line an individual wanted to do a few laps below that outcrop could you not make an argument that the safest line is right up through the tree band?

Look at all the debris all the way across the basin.  Are you not equally exposed on your ascent back to the road across the basin?

I for one don't like to feel like I am aggravating everyone but unless there is a real danger to myself, my partners or others I am going to do what I want.

This is complicated I know because we all have a different idea of acceptable risk.

If the snowpack is safe why would anyone spend almost an hour doing the tour around table when they can skin straight up and do a lap every 20 minutes?

So what is the issue?  Is it one of safety, convention, or etiquette?

I'd like to hear your  thoughts

It's not mock concern.  I've been taught that one of the keys for avoiding avalanches is minimizing exposure. 

IMO the safest way to get out of Bagley for your next lap is by skiing all the way down to the lake and then skinning out staying in the middle, just skinner's right of the ridge where Grandma's Cabin is.  This will put you out on the groomer somewhere just below the Blueberry access gate.  This way you're not traversing through the bottom of common runs and should someone set something off above you (hopefully) it won't reach you because you're out in the flats.  Once you're on the road it's smooth sailing up and you're not in danger of getting taken out by anyone.  It's a 50 minute round-trip from the gate to past the horn to the gate by this method and you're only exposed on your ski down and then your skin back out to the road (5 minutes).  If you skin straight back up you're exposed 100% of however long it takes. 

So the answer is to go around because it's convention because it's safer for everyone AND good etiquette (not ruining real estate or blocking people from descending).

This. And I would add that "idiot" threads are fears projected onto a large screen. Embrace death. Our lives are meaningless. Or whatever.

Yes, seeing that skintrack is one of my greatest fears. As for the latter half of your post I can't tell if you're joking or not but I've lost too many friends with meaningful lives to want to embrace death any more.

edit: sorry I didn't put this in the right place the first time. 

Ok Judgy McJudgerson... Nothing was moving yesterday. The new snow was bonded to the rain crust. Small crowds. The person who made that track dropped the chute once already and...speculating here...made the determination it was safe to climb back up. And it was. Safe.  Well safe enough anyway. On that day at that time.

People dropping from above are obligated to make every effort to avoid sluffing the people below them.  Especially in a crowded zone.

Be cool everybody.

So...was it you?  I'll match your expectation that people not drop in on you when you're skinning directly up a great line in a typical avy starting zone that's below a blind roll if you'll accept my expectation that there will never be anyone in that spot when I make a turn over that blind roll.  I'll remind you what happend the last time I cleaned out that pocket...
AprilFool

IMO the safest way to get out of Bagley for your next lap is by skiing all the way down to the lake and then skinning out staying in the middle, just skinner's right of the ridge where Grandma's Cabin is.  This will put you out on the groomer somewhere just below the Blueberry access gate.  This way you're not traversing through the bottom of common runs and should someone set something off above you (hopefully) it won't reach you because you're out in the flats.  Once you're on the road it's smooth sailing up and you're not in danger of getting taken out by anyone.  It's a 50 minute round-trip from the gate to past the horn to the gate by this method and you're only exposed on your ski down and then your skin back out to the road (5 minutes).  If you skin straight back up you're exposed 100% of however long it takes. 

I wasn't even going to get into all the people that traverse out of their line half way down and put stripes into everyone elses run outs but that pisses me off too.  Fall line is too much fun to waste.

About the way out...what he said ^^^
I'll admit that I've cut it a little closer to the bottom of Cheap Date on occasion but never the disgusting traverse back up to the corner of the ski area or direct up to Artist Point.

My personal favorite "safe way" out of the bowl is to run it out to the lake and then head east towards the trailhead but stay on the south shore of the lake.  Instead of going all the way to the bridge I'd stay just right of the minor ridge that leads up to the interpretive center and gain that ridge as soon as possible.  This avoids anything that slides off of Cheap Date, Five Minute Trees or Blueberry One.  It also avoids stuff coming off the south side of Herman.  There is a large debris pile that grows throught the season just west of the bridge on the north shore of the lake that I try to avoid.  I'll admit that I've cut it a little closer to the bottom of Cheap Date on occasion but never the disgusting traverse back up to the corner of the ski area or direct up to Artist Point.

Nice to know both of our personal favorite safe routes out of that zone are one and the same.

I will admit to skinning up that lower "Little AK" slope once. It was last year in October, and I knew nobody would drop in from above because I tried to access that zone from above the day before and it was all rocks and unskiable.

Nice to know both of our personal favorite safe routes out of that zone are one and the same.

I will admit to skinning up that lower "Little AK" slope once.  It was last year in October, and I knew nobody would drop in from above because I tried to access that zone from above the day before and it was all rocks and unskiable.

I read bridge where you actually wrote ridge, thought you were saying to stay closer to the river. I don't usually do repeats on Table, it's more of something to do on the way to something else.

An alpine turning tele skier once told me that it's possible to skin all the way up Herman with just one kick turn.  He was trying to find a way around that one too...

That alpine turning tele skier found a way around that cruxy section and skinned Herman w/o any kick turns last year.  On Herman, kick turns = routefinding error (or low snow - my last Herman ascent a week or so ago was a kick turning disaster).   

At least you got out a week ago, the last time I got out was MB two weeks ago. This weekend I'm stuck working in Colorado driving laps around Summit County and getting grouchy on the internet.

Oh that was you?  Tsk tsk. 

Nope. Wasn't me. Too steep. I should have been a little more clear in my first post. On a sketchy day, that track is a poor choice. No doubt. If there was ever a good time to put in that track, last week was it. Low avy conditions and small crowds. He got away with it. No harm, no foul. Embrace the sh!tshow.

I for one don't like to feel like I am aggravating everyone but unless there is a real danger to myself, my partners or others I am going to do what I want.

This is complicated I know because we all have a different idea of acceptable risk.

^^All the backcountry etiquette anybody needs to know right there.
-Don't avalanche yourself.
-Don't avalanche others.
-Don't put yourself in a position to be avalanched upon by others.

Everything else goes. Including post holing in the skintrack and other related first world problems. ;D*





*Is the grin too much? Maybe just the smiley? So hard to know how to play it sometimes.

Nope. Wasn't me. Too steep. I should have been a little more clear in my first post. On a sketchy day, that track is a poor choice. No doubt. If there was ever a good time to put in that track, last week was it. Low avy conditions and small crowds. He got away with it. No harm, no foul. Embrace the sh!tshow.

^^All the backcountry etiquette anybody needs to know right there.
-Don't avalanche yourself.
-Don't avalanche others.
-Don't put yourself in a position to be avalanched upon by others.

Everything else goes. Including post holing in the skintrack and other related first world problems.

No harm no foul?  BS. 

I guess whomever put that track in must be some sort of omnipotent Snow God because I'd never be 100% sure a slope that steep would not slide/sluff/something if someone dropped in above me.  Why take the risk?  I guess I can use someone on that slope as an indication that it's totally stable and can drop in with impunity? If they put themselves there and they're following those three rules, then they must not be worried about #3. Shred on! :

OR, more likely, they're there because they don't know what they're doing or are just following someone's bad example. Unfortunately practice makes permanent and next genius that puts that skintrack in will probably have to embrace the sh!tshow when their bad choice gets them sluffed, sprayed, slabbed, or at a minimum verbally abused. 

Furthermore, if your route-finding skills allow you to think that's an ok route when there are much safer, less strenuous alternatives (no matter how stable) then I probably don't trust your stability assessment ability either. 

If they put themselves there and they're following those three rules, then they must not be worried about #3.  Shred on!   :

Now you've got it hop!! You're making real progress.

I've won't ascend under Little Alaska but I'll give you the freedom to do it if you want. It's not the convention but with so many bc users these days someone is bound to change the rules.

this whole situation reminds me of the following true story.

Son: Father how does the tribe choose names for the children?
Chief: Well my son it has long been the tradition of the elders to name a child after a sign in nature.
Son: What do you mean?
Chief: Well for example if a child is born and the father goes outside and the snow is falling he may call the child Snow Gently Falling. Or, if on the day a child is born a large avalanche comes down the mountain he will call the child Stands with an Airbag. So tell me 2 Dogs Humping why do you ask?
Son: Because I'm not sure I like the tradition.


Silly I know. But this thread should die. It's gonna start snowing...yes! We all gonna be gettin' some soon

If they put themselves there and they're following those three rules, then they must not be worried about #3.  Shred on!   :

Now you've got it hop!!  You're making real progress.

I've won't ascend under Little Alaska but I'll give you the freedom to do it if you want.  It's not the convention but with so many bc users these days someone is bound to change the rules. 

I try and learn every day. Real progress, indeed. Now, do I need a transceiver if I have an airbag? That girl in Grizzly Gulch did today, but that's during Utarded snow conditions. Nobody here would be that dumb.

Sure, everyone has the freedom to ascend Little AK - just like I have the freedom to call them complete and utter morons for doing so, and now apparently now I have the OK to drop in on them. I read it here on TAY.

Here in Central Oregon, I've finally resigned my self to the probability that at least one or two people in the first of ten descenders will decide to just zig zag all over the slope (and then exponentially more lemmings... ). Invariably, on some perfectly fresh slopes, they will start on one side of the top and just start diagonally traversing like it is going to be  way better over on  some other aspect? Go over there some other way... Apparently they don't give  a crap about skiing fall line so every one can have their own fresh tracks.  Things have changed considerably starting about fifteen years ago--however, now it is just ridiculous...  "Wow, I've I just picked up skins and touring skis--Now I'm a backcountry skier--piece of cake"--little more to it than that...