Home > Trip Reports > Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16

Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16

11/16/13
WA Cascades West Slopes North (Mt Baker)
22909
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Posted by Glacierbrains on 11/17/13 4:35am
Skied at Mt. Baker Ski Area zone yesterday and I was pleased with the ski quality of the conditions. Snow was reactive though, and there were a lot of people out who were "testing" the conditions without really knowing it. I saw three slides kicked, which took all the new snow down to a thin, rocky bed surface. One slide was triggered when a rider launched a 10 footer into the top of the face going down the prow to Bagley lakes and triggered a fast slide that propagated for the entire upper face of the little chute (50 feet or so) and most of the way down to the lakes, but was luckily restricted to a gulley. My party and two others were close to the slide as it rushed past. A bit unnerving to have some people up there who clearly weren't considering other people's safety. Crowns were 12''-approx 20". Runs were on the ramp going from artist point down to Bagley Lakes and laps underneath the prow in some small trees. Face Shots. It was easy to find good ski terrain that was not sliding.
Your right about alot of people that have no regards for anyone else on the slope.  We are lucky that our snow pack solidifies so quickly.  I've taken a number of guys from Colorado out in the backcountry and they are all amazed that we don't have more avi activity.

Don

What is unnerving is the recent trend to skin from the bottom of the slope up, spending the entire day under the face, and tracking out the runout of lines that should be skied top to bottom. Why place a skin track in a location where people drop in on top of you all day and debris goes rushing by?  Much better to be in avalanche terrain with your board pointed down hill at speed and gear all buttoned up rather than skinning up with your pants down. In addition this approach undercuts the bottom portion of some of the best lines.  The proper skin route is back to Austin then up towards Artist.  This route avoids getting slid out by people from above and you are only on the slope when you are skiing it. Skinning out Bagley then up heading up Table from the bottom is a no go.

A bit unnerving to have some people up there who clearly weren't considering other people's safety.]


As the number of BC skiers increases such behavior will become more frequent... 

We are seeing this all over the place in BC. Crazy steep up tracks everywhere. Overlapping ski tracks. I have told groups to wait and not ski over top of the uptrack and with deer in the headlights look they drop not knowing what they just did. That is an education thing more course more time with guides help solve those problems. The challenge is there are groups that don't want to spend the money and invest in their safety.

There is something to be said about mentor-ship and learning from the generations before you.  Without people to show us the way many of us wouldn't have had the adventures we cherish.

Really three strategies..
1) Ski far off places that are hard to find for most new skiers
2) BE that guy and make comments and suggestions to enhance the safety of your group and others.
3) Take people under your wings and show them the etiquette.


rant over....


author=str8ryder link=topic=29641.msg124382#msg124382 date=1384751768]
Why place a skin track in a location where people drop in on top of you all day and debris goes rushing by?

Please understand I don't want to start an argument, but I'm concerned.  Should anyone be skinning or skiing in such a location on a day like that?  It sounds too dangerous for both.

author=silaswild link=topic=29641.msg124391#msg124391 date=1384758218]
Please understand I don't want to start an argument, but I'm concerned.  Should anyone be skinning or skiing in such a location on a day like that?  It sounds too dangerous for both.


^^^

This is why I'll wait a bit for the "first powder day" frenzy to die down, too many kooks out and about. I understand the argument about not being out on days like this, why chance it? I also see way too many skin tracks in dangerous and inefficient terrain. If you have to ski on days like this choose a safe up track, for that matter make it a habit to set safe skin tracks that avoid exposure ALL the time. Good habit will go a long way to keeping you safe and alive.

huge skis with wall to wall skins and minimalist binders under the lightest fancy gear carried by strong climbers driven by a hormone fueled craniums make going up steep shit way easier.
b

author=flowing alpy link=topic=29641.msg124400#msg124400 date=1384793727]
huge skis with wall to wall skins and minimalist binders under the lightest fancy gear carried by strong climbers driven by a hormone fueled craniums make going up steep shit way easier.
b


Totally agree and maybe even resemble that characterization, yet there is still a right way and a wrong way to climb a slope.  The right way has >90% to do with minimizing exposure to avalanche terrain and the last 10% for minimizing effort. The best up tracks accomplish both.

author=str8ryder link=topic=29641.msg124382#msg124382 date=1384751768]
What is unnerving is the recent trend to skin from the bottom of the slope up, spending the entire day under the face, and tracking out the runout of lines that should be skied top to bottom. Why place a skin track in a location where people drop in on top of you all day and debris goes rushing by?  Much better to be in avalanche terrain with your board pointed down hill at speed and gear all buttoned up rather than skinning up with your pants down. In addition this approach undercuts the bottom portion of some of the best lines.  The proper skin route is back to Austin then up towards Artist.  This route avoids getting slid out by people from above and you are only on the slope when you are skiing it. Skinning out Bagley then up heading up Table from the bottom is a no go.


Quoted because I would have said the same thing but been a bigger dick about it.  I have heard a lot of similar comments from others that are part of the older generation around here and have been touring in these parts for a long time.

I have great concern for parties below me that are taking their time and safely moving down as a group.  The smart skin track out typically is far enough out in the bowl that sluff isn't a concern and small slides don't run far enough to reach the track.  I have very little compassion for people that are skinning directly up underneath stuff that I've been riding for 20 years. 

The best skin track takes you back out to Terminal lake and then parallels the groomer up to Austin Pass without exposure to avalanches from above and without putting a trench in the runout for other skiers.  The ski area is starting to get grouchy about climbing on the groomer as BC skiers are taking parking away from lift ticket and cheese burger buying alpine skiers.

Whenever this conversation comes up, I'm reminded that beginners are taught to "climb what you ski", which is often good advice, especially in unknown terrain.

In the case of the Blueberry Chutes, I don't know the experience level of those setting the steep-slope uptracks. I don't ski Baker much, but the added objective hazard of strong/aggressive skiers coming down those lines would lead me to avoid the bases of those chutes anytime after a storm.

In the same vein, with a more-familiar area, it wasn't that long ago that the Slot could be regarded as a snow climb, or a route you could ascend from the base. These days, it's almost certain that someone(s) will be entering from the top and ski-cutting on any day you'd want to be in there. Furthermore, it's not possible to see 80% of the couloir from the top; even conscientious parties can't tell you're in there.

author=Jason4 link=topic=29641.msg124409#msg124409 date=1384797318]
I have very little compassion for people that are skinning directly up underneath stuff that I've been riding for 20 years. 


I should clarify that my intolerance is particular to skin tracks under the ridgeline between the ski area and Table Mountain because there is such good access to the east end of the ridge and a safe way around.  There are other skin tracks in the area that are just as exposed but don't get me so agitated because there aren't such obvious alternatives: Herman Saddle/Diamond Trees and the false summit of Herman come to mind.

I'm also very bothered by people that set the ski traverse in below the Beast/Headwall at the top of Oi Valley.  It something that was common and then died down but last year I saw it make a comeback.  That is a dangerous traverse for both the people on it and also the people coming down from above.

Solution: Avoid places where other will be:  There's a lot of space out there....it may take some extra effort but don't go to areas that you KNOW will be filled with other people.

Easy Guide.

#1 Read the TAY trip reports.
#2 Avoid going to the area where the latest TAY report says  it was good.
#3 If upon reaching your selected TH and you see lots of other people.......go in the other direction.
#4 Enjoy stress free skiing away from other groups.
#5 Don't post a TAY TR when you get back.

^^^with age comes wisdom

author=Charlie Hagedorn link=topic=29641.msg124410#msg124410 date=1384797398]
I'm reminded that beginners are taught to "climb what you ski", which is often good advice, especially in unknown terrain.


I think this makes sense when you are conscientiously choosing to ascend a safe line… when you are not in an avy zone… ascending a ridge or mellow slope… then it makes sense to Ski back the way you came up because you are familiar with the snow pack etc.

I think it makes sense to clarify for beginners and all of us what it means to conservatively skin up and ski what you climbed.

author=aaron_wright link=topic=29641.msg124416#msg124416 date=1384798802]
^^^with age comes wisdom


It took me a while... ;)

author=Scotsman link=topic=29641.msg124415#msg124415 date=1384798652]
Solution: Avoid places where other will be:  There's a lot of space out there....it may take some extra effort but don't go to areas that you KNOW will be filled with other people.


Great advice when time and snowpack allows, unfortunately there is only one road up north that is maintained above 3000 feet and from there the current snowpack dictates where I can go without fear of (another) coreshot.  There are some other choices but the lower the snow line goes to longer the approach becomes and pretty soon some of those areas will be shared with snow machines. 

I'm not looking to reduce the numbers.  I'm stoked that they're stoked.  I'd like to see people not set a skin track straight up a good line and expect the people above them to not ski it.

author=Jason4 link=topic=29641.msg124421#msg124421 date=1384800865]
dictates where I can go without fear of (another) coreshot. 

I'm not looking to reduce the numbers. 


There's your problem right there....I used to be afraid of the coreshot.......No more! Be not afraid...coreshots are a badge of honor....they're only tools...and when skiing pow who needs good bases!

In a perfect world, everybody would act with the correct etiquette and follow the rules. Human nature as it is= NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....no matter how many discussion on ski blogs/websites. Face reality............





author=Scotsman link=topic=29641.msg124424#msg124424 date=1384801642]
There's your problem right there....I used to be afraid of the coreshot.......No more! Be not afraid...coreshots are a badge of honor....they're only tools...and when skiing pow who needs good bases!

In a perfect world, everybody would act with the correct etiquette and follow the rules. Human nature as it is= NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....no matter how many discussion on ski blogs/websites. Face reality............


Truth on both topics. :D

I've thought about this subject a bit and have considered what an (online?) bc ski guide to the area accessed by hwy 542 would do to increase awareness of good local skiing etiquette. It seems there aren't really that many secrets anymore in the area, and it will always be pretty easy to get away from the crowds by just going a little further away from bagley/swift/herman. It might make the area slightly more crowded, but I doubt it, and it could be an amazing online resource for recording very localized snowpack analysis if setup in such a way as to allow comments/pictures to be recorded specifically to individual runs. Maybe people would even stop booting in the skin tracks! (what a pie in the sky idea that is)

My thinking is that by laying out a guide akin to climbing guidebooks you have the opportunity to get information out to specifically the folks that seem to be creating problems, i.e. those that haven't had the opportunity to ski in the area for a long time and gain local wisdom and good etiquette. Of course there's the Baldwin guide, but it is different in scope.

The obvious huge downside is that the thing becomes a tick-list for egos. Not rating the difficulty, simply including objective info such as vertical drop and slope angle would help a little, but I can certainly still see this becoming a problem, perhaps even a litigious one. The other pitfall is that it takes the (very enjoyable IME) research and discovery of new zones out of the equation. I'd hate to kill the adventure off like that. Perhaps restrict the guide to just bagely/swift/herman?

Do the pro's outweigh the cons? Would this help or just create more work for the BMRC?

People don't buy guidebooks to learn etiquette...


True; people usually buy guidebooks to learn about good places to go in a new environment. Nonetheless, their behavior is influenced by guidebooks. One little dotted line denoted "traditional avalanche-safe approach" will find many followers.

In the particular case of that side of Table Mountain, it's hard to imagine anyone's secrets being bared by an alpental.com-like photo or two.

author=d542east link=topic=29641.msg124523#msg124523 date=1384897433]
I've thought about this subject a bit and have considered what an (online?) bc ski guide to the area accessed by hwy 542 would do

And, so it came to pass that I was inspired to make my yearly post on TAY.

This... is a bad idea.  I must admit that if such a thing were to exist, I would likely frequent the site as I do this one.

There absolutely are, however, still many well-kept secrets up the Nooksack valley.  I even know a few of the best runs that can be had in the Bagley area on the most crowded of days by walking no further than any other member of the crowd.  The other access points are mostly characterized by long approaches which will deter the crowds in any case.

Selfish secrecy is not the only reason I don't like this proposal.  I also think it would be potentially very dangerous.  The landscape up there changes almost daily.  To put a guided description of how to get to chute 2 on the front face of false-Herman, for example, will lead someone to a pretty scary run in even the best of conditions.  Following the same description in early or late season could be deadly.

I'd prefer to advocate the practice of slowly earning knowledge of terrain anywhere - including popular areas like 542.  Exercise caution, and ease your way into learning an area over the course of years - not by just jumping into something after reading about it on a website.

Approach it like this, and you'll live long enough to discover the secrets.  Let's not make it easier and more tempting for folks to get into dangerous situations.

Last season when I saw over 100 people in the Bagley Basin all doing their own adventuring, I decided that skiing at Cypress in Vancouver, the most used XC area in Canada, offered more solitude...

... and a higher margin of safety.  I love touring and have been at it for some time but the shitshow I sawin the Baker backcountry that day was unreal. 

I'm glad I enjoy XC skiing on weekends...

author=Charlie Hagedorn link=topic=29641.msg124535#msg124535 date=1384914029">
True; people usually buy guidebooks to learn about good places to go in a new environment. Nonetheless, their behavior is influenced by guidebooks. One little dotted line denoted "traditional avalanche-safe approach" will find many followers.

In the particular case of that side of Table Mountain, it's hard to imagine anyone's secrets being bared by an alpental.com-like photo or two.


Charlie.... I understand your philosophy and maybe some might be influenced but others won't.
Look at driving on I5...there is a driving test, lanes to follow, speed limits and driving etiquette and even police to enforce all the above....does it work....for the majority yes but there is always a minority who still break the rules and stay if the goddamn left lane going at the speed limit and won't move over for us more skilled drivers who go faster than the speed limit. ;D

Why not a sign marking the recommended uptrack with warnings and then a bunch of people with special BC Police badges making sure everybody follows the rules.????

Jesus H Christ ...when will all this do-gooder nonsense stop and you people accept that human nature is human nature and nothing is going to completely eradicate bad practices by some people in the bc.

By all means try and educate......... but F**king guidebooks for everything....... The end of skiing culture as we know it is being destroyed by all this self glorification-look at me Trip Report bullshit, Go-pro video and Guidebook crap.

The end is neigh!!!!!!!!
REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have! ;)

[quoteBy all means try and educate......... but F**king guidebooks for everything....... The end of skiing culture as we know it is being destroyed by all this self glorification-look at me Trip Report bullshit, Go-pro video and Guidebook crap.

The end is neigh!!!!!!!!
REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]


Here, Here!!!  The haggis eater has nailed it!!!  Pour a wee dram and toast!!!

This thread reminds me of the situation out on the Arm. I like skinning up the Arm. It only takes about 45 min from the base of chair 8, arguably quicker and more pleasant than riding the chair and dealing with the ridge line.  I was chatting with one of the patrols about this once and he said simply,

"bad idea, no up in a down zone".

The issue with table is it is a very high traffic area with a lot of angle, aka a down zone. In unstable conditions, the traffic is pretty much guaranteed to bring some snow down. In harder smooth snow conditions,  someone falls on that, they take a long slide possibly taking out someone skinning up. Also, I've seen one of those big cornices break off in the spring, and unless you want a date with a semi, you don't want to be there.

I would just warn people who skin up there on busy days that they are asking for it.

When the traffic subsides and conditions are reasonable, the up-track is fine. Parts of the Arm after resort closes is a great up-skin.

I don't know how you poor bastards put up with this mob crap...God bless ye.

Guidebooks for touring cannot be compared to guidebooks for climbing.  I would support a very brief and public explanation for the local style and etiquette that is expected by locals in the Bagley bowl area that includes the safe routes to Artist Point, Herman Saddle, the false summit of Herman and even the top of Table and of course the exit from the bowl.  I would not support anything that shows ski lines.

The big difference between climbing and skiing is that more traffic on rock has a cleaning effect, high traffic leads to polishing and broken holds but that is a long term issue.  High traffic in skiing leads to moguls and moguls should only lead to the lodge.

We can't expect that the ski area will do any sort of policing of the BC skiers in the bowl, they're already competing for parking spaces with ticket and beer buying alpine skiers.  I have my doubts about whether the people setting the offensive skin tracks even read online forums about where to ski otherwise they would have already piped in about how efficient their track is and it's not ruining their run and the people above them should wait until they've cleared the climb to drop in.

Regarding the Arm, as it is I only see a couple of people climbing up the Safety Line so I don't think it's a big deal and you guys seem to pretty well stick to one skin track.  It might become a bigger issue if more people start following you and zig zag all over that area.  I wouldn't expect people above you that have hiked out the ridge to have any concern for you when they drop in either.  I agree that it's the way I'd go early or late in the season but not when the lifts are running. 

And there are plenty of other secrets in the area that shouldn't go in guide books.  I'm actually really fearing what Tailgate Baker is going to do to the area.

hopefully get more people from the snoqualmie forest to tailgate near the shuksan compound.
b

author=flowing alpy link=topic=29641.msg124570#msg124570 date=1384980370]
hopefully get more people from the snoqualmie forest to tailgate near the shuksan compound.
b

;D

author=flowing alpy link=topic=29641.msg124570#msg124570 date=1384980370]
hopefully get more people from the snoqualmie forest to tailgate near the shuksan compound.
b


I'll print out copies of Rainier's book starting on page 153 with careful directions to head west on 542 as quick as possible. :D

author=T. Eastman link=topic=29641.msg124542#msg124542 date=1384919485]
Last season when I saw over 100 people in the Bagley Basin all doing their own adventuring,


Only a 100 hundred people?  Must have been a quiet day.  Swear I saw that many on the BackSide of Herman alone one weekend. 

Thanks for the thought-provoking comments all. Being new to the Baker area, it is good to learn about people's opinions. In retrospect, I would have chosen an alternate route and avoided the crowds and objective hazards caused by them. It is a great area, and I will certainly be deviating from the Hoi polloi much more as I learn a bit more of the topography.

i was in one of the "offending" parties that was skinning up the north facing runs off of table, but i'd like to give our perspective.  we were a group from vancouver that is moderately familiar with the bagley bowl area but found that the early season conditions made things a lot less familiar.  we initially did take the proper route and skinned up the resort cat track to artist point and then dropped into the north facing stuff from the top but we found that the relative lack of snow made things both rocky and prone to slide.  on our first run, ski cutting the slope released a slab.  so we decided to tiptoe our way down and then just lap the small patch of trees on the north side of table, which required us skinning up that run through the trees.  we felt that was safer than taking another sketchy entrance from the top.

everything we saw that day told us our route was the safest available to us.  yes, there were a couple people skiing down beside our uptrack, but our assessment of the snowpack was that it wasn't going to cause a slide, whereas we had just experienced a slide firsthand on one of the "proper" entrances to the bowl. 

from a local's perspective i can see how we would be labelled idiots but i feel like this is bound to happen when people come to a new area.  if someone had shown us a safer route from the top, we would have gladly followed, but that wasn't an option.  i'm not sure what the solution is, but i just wanted to give our perspective.  i'm open to advice on what we should have done better.

i think as backcountry use becomes more popular, a posted sign with proper routes would be a good thing.  i know that the locals won't like that - i wouldn't like such a sign on the duffey lake road where i tour most often, but as more people start touring, the choice will be between keeping things safe or keeping things secret.  it will be hard to have both. 

author=discostew link=topic=29641.msg124882#msg124882 date=1385505648]


i'm open to advice on what we should have done better.

 


Best advice is ignore all the self-righteous b.s. people are giving you about your chosen route and savor the good day out.

author=Scotsman link=topic=29641.msg124543#msg124543 date=1384919707]
The end is neigh!!!!!!!!
REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have! ;)


Too classic not to quote.


author=jwplotz link=topic=29641.msg124898#msg124898 date=1385526042]
Best advice is ignore all the self-righteous b.s. people are giving you about your chosen route and savor the good day out.


Fair enough but don't shed any tears if someone sluffs you off a skin track that's climbing up a popular descent.

author=discostew link=topic=29641.msg124882#msg124882 date=1385505648]
i was in one of the "offending" parties that was skinning up the north facing runs off of table, but i'd like to give our perspective. ...


I can understand and appreciate that people are unfamiliar with the area and that conditions change throughout the year.  I also appreciate the safety of climbing what you ski.  That said, this is a problem throughout the season that I hadn't noticed until 2 or 3 years ago.  I'm going to stay optimistic that as the season goes on I'll get away from Bagley bowl more often and I won't worry about where the skin tracks go in the bowl.

If you ever see me out there and have any questions stop and ask, I'm usually pretty friendly with beta when I'm not grouchy and stuck at my desk.  I'm the splitboarder in BD Primes, out on weekends.

author=discostew link=topic=29641.msg124882#msg124882 date=1385505648]
on our first run, ski cutting the slope released a slab.  so we decided to tiptoe our way down and then just lap the small patch of trees on the north side of table, which required us skinning up that run through the trees.  we felt that was safer than taking another sketchy entrance from the top.


Your decision put you at more risk. There is no treed zone in the area you describe that isn't exposed to massive hang fire from above. That plus the fact that folks were descending above you is more than enough evidence that you were making a mistake.

Here, Someone at WWU made a guide for the Bagley Basin already.

Bagley Basin Safety

Nothing else needs to be said. Keep the pounders confined to "the backcountry" and let the gapers get carried. No better way to learn a lesson than to experience your poor decision making skills firsthand.

While I think it's an interesting exercise I don't think the avalanche mapping is very helpful or accurate.  The names are also on the wrong features, especially along the Arm, it looks like they moved everything over one feature.

The summary of their efforts is that everything at Baker is dangerous during and immediately after a storm and that avalanches start at the tops of hill and end at the bottom.

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Glacierbrains
2013-11-17 12:35:26