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| | |-+  Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
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Author Topic: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16  (Read 17199 times)
Scotsman
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #25 on: 11/19/13, 07:55 PM »

True; people usually buy guidebooks to learn about good places to go in a new environment. Nonetheless, their behavior is influenced by guidebooks. One little dotted line denoted "traditional avalanche-safe approach" will find many followers.

In the particular case of that side of Table Mountain, it's hard to imagine anyone's secrets being bared by an alpental.com-like photo or two.

Charlie.... I understand your philosophy and maybe some might be influenced but others won't.
Look at driving on I5...there is a driving test, lanes to follow, speed limits and driving etiquette and even police to enforce all the above....does it work....for the majority yes but there is always a minority who still break the rules and stay if the goddamn left lane going at the speed limit and won't move over for us more skilled drivers who go faster than the speed limit. Grin

Why not a sign marking the recommended uptrack with warnings and then a bunch of people with special BC Police badges making sure everybody follows the rules.Huh?

 Jesus H Christ ...when will all this do-gooder nonsense stop and you people accept that human nature is human nature and nothing is going to completely eradicate bad practices by some people in the bc.

By all means try and educate......... but F**king guidebooks for everything....... The end of skiing culture as we know it is being destroyed by all this self glorification-look at me Trip Report bullshit, Go-pro video and Guidebook crap.

The end is neigh!!!!!!!!
REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 I have! Wink
« Last Edit: 11/19/13, 08:06 PM by Scotsman » Logged

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T. Eastman
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #26 on: 11/19/13, 09:43 PM »

[quoteBy all means try and educate......... but F**king guidebooks for everything....... The end of skiing culture as we know it is being destroyed by all this self glorification-look at me Trip Report bullshit, Go-pro video and Guidebook crap.

The end is neigh!!!!!!!!
REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
Quote

Here, Here!!!  The haggis eater has nailed it!!!  Pour a wee dram and toast!!!
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David_Britton
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #27 on: 11/20/13, 07:47 AM »

This thread reminds me of the situation out on the Arm. I like skinning up the Arm. It only takes about 45 min from the base of chair 8, arguably quicker and more pleasant than riding the chair and dealing with the ridge line.  I was chatting with one of the patrols about this once and he said simply,

"bad idea, no up in a down zone".

The issue with table is it is a very high traffic area with a lot of angle, aka a down zone. In unstable conditions, the traffic is pretty much guaranteed to bring some snow down. In harder smooth snow conditions,  someone falls on that, they take a long slide possibly taking out someone skinning up. Also, I've seen one of those big cornices break off in the spring, and unless you want a date with a semi, you don't want to be there.

I would just warn people who skin up there on busy days that they are asking for it.

When the traffic subsides and conditions are reasonable, the up-track is fine. Parts of the Arm after resort closes is a great up-skin.
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BillK
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #28 on: 11/20/13, 09:06 AM »

I don't know how you poor bastards put up with this mob crap...God bless ye.
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Jason4
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #29 on: 11/20/13, 10:10 AM »

Guidebooks for touring cannot be compared to guidebooks for climbing.  I would support a very brief and public explanation for the local style and etiquette that is expected by locals in the Bagley bowl area that includes the safe routes to Artist Point, Herman Saddle, the false summit of Herman and even the top of Table and of course the exit from the bowl.  I would not support anything that shows ski lines.

The big difference between climbing and skiing is that more traffic on rock has a cleaning effect, high traffic leads to polishing and broken holds but that is a long term issue.  High traffic in skiing leads to moguls and moguls should only lead to the lodge.

We can't expect that the ski area will do any sort of policing of the BC skiers in the bowl, they're already competing for parking spaces with ticket and beer buying alpine skiers.  I have my doubts about whether the people setting the offensive skin tracks even read online forums about where to ski otherwise they would have already piped in about how efficient their track is and it's not ruining their run and the people above them should wait until they've cleared the climb to drop in.

Regarding the Arm, as it is I only see a couple of people climbing up the Safety Line so I don't think it's a big deal and you guys seem to pretty well stick to one skin track.  It might become a bigger issue if more people start following you and zig zag all over that area.  I wouldn't expect people above you that have hiked out the ridge to have any concern for you when they drop in either.  I agree that it's the way I'd go early or late in the season but not when the lifts are running. 

And there are plenty of other secrets in the area that shouldn't go in guide books.  I'm actually really fearing what Tailgate Baker is going to do to the area.
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Fix your heel, fix your problem.
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flowing alpy
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #30 on: 11/20/13, 12:46 PM »

hopefully get more people from the snoqualmie forest to tailgate near the shuksan compound.
b
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Snoqualmonix
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #31 on: 11/20/13, 01:24 PM »

hopefully get more people from the snoqualmie forest to tailgate near the shuksan compound.
b
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Jason4
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #32 on: 11/20/13, 02:40 PM »

hopefully get more people from the snoqualmie forest to tailgate near the shuksan compound.
b

I'll print out copies of Rainier's book starting on page 153 with careful directions to head west on 542 as quick as possible. Cheesy
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Free your heel, free your mind.
Fix your heel, fix your problem.
- Pred, 2013
dberdinka
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #33 on: 11/21/13, 01:47 PM »

Last season when I saw over 100 people in the Bagley Basin all doing their own adventuring,

Only a 100 hundred people?  Must have been a quiet day.  Swear I saw that many on the BackSide of Herman alone one weekend.   
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Glacierbrains
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #34 on: 11/21/13, 10:19 PM »

Thanks for the thought-provoking comments all. Being new to the Baker area, it is good to learn about people's opinions. In retrospect, I would have chosen an alternate route and avoided the crowds and objective hazards caused by them. It is a great area, and I will certainly be deviating from the Hoi polloi much more as I learn a bit more of the topography.
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At least it's not Yawgoo Valley....
discostew
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #35 on: 11/26/13, 02:40 PM »

i was in one of the "offending" parties that was skinning up the north facing runs off of table, but i'd like to give our perspective.  we were a group from vancouver that is moderately familiar with the bagley bowl area but found that the early season conditions made things a lot less familiar.  we initially did take the proper route and skinned up the resort cat track to artist point and then dropped into the north facing stuff from the top but we found that the relative lack of snow made things both rocky and prone to slide.  on our first run, ski cutting the slope released a slab.  so we decided to tiptoe our way down and then just lap the small patch of trees on the north side of table, which required us skinning up that run through the trees.  we felt that was safer than taking another sketchy entrance from the top.

everything we saw that day told us our route was the safest available to us.  yes, there were a couple people skiing down beside our uptrack, but our assessment of the snowpack was that it wasn't going to cause a slide, whereas we had just experienced a slide firsthand on one of the "proper" entrances to the bowl. 

from a local's perspective i can see how we would be labelled idiots but i feel like this is bound to happen when people come to a new area.  if someone had shown us a safer route from the top, we would have gladly followed, but that wasn't an option.  i'm not sure what the solution is, but i just wanted to give our perspective.  i'm open to advice on what we should have done better.

i think as backcountry use becomes more popular, a posted sign with proper routes would be a good thing.  i know that the locals won't like that - i wouldn't like such a sign on the duffey lake road where i tour most often, but as more people start touring, the choice will be between keeping things safe or keeping things secret.  it will be hard to have both. 
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jwplotz
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #36 on: 11/26/13, 08:20 PM »



 i'm open to advice on what we should have done better.

 

Best advice is ignore all the self-righteous b.s. people are giving you about your chosen route and savor the good day out.
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Kyle Miller
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #37 on: 11/26/13, 09:47 PM »

The end is neigh!!!!!!!!
REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 I have! Wink

Too classic not to quote.

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In a perfect world, everybody would act with the correct etiquette and follow the rules. Human nature as it is= NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....no matter how many discussion on ski blogs/websites. Face reality............
Jason4
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #38 on: 11/27/13, 09:14 AM »

Best advice is ignore all the self-righteous b.s. people are giving you about your chosen route and savor the good day out.

Fair enough but don't shed any tears if someone sluffs you off a skin track that's climbing up a popular descent.
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Free your heel, free your mind.
Fix your heel, fix your problem.
- Pred, 2013
Jason4
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #39 on: 11/27/13, 09:21 AM »

i was in one of the "offending" parties that was skinning up the north facing runs off of table, but i'd like to give our perspective. ...

I can understand and appreciate that people are unfamiliar with the area and that conditions change throughout the year.  I also appreciate the safety of climbing what you ski.  That said, this is a problem throughout the season that I hadn't noticed until 2 or 3 years ago.  I'm going to stay optimistic that as the season goes on I'll get away from Bagley bowl more often and I won't worry about where the skin tracks go in the bowl.

If you ever see me out there and have any questions stop and ask, I'm usually pretty friendly with beta when I'm not grouchy and stuck at my desk.  I'm the splitboarder in BD Primes, out on weekends.
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Free your heel, free your mind.
Fix your heel, fix your problem.
- Pred, 2013
chuck
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #40 on: 12/01/13, 04:38 PM »

on our first run, ski cutting the slope released a slab.  so we decided to tiptoe our way down and then just lap the small patch of trees on the north side of table, which required us skinning up that run through the trees.  we felt that was safer than taking another sketchy entrance from the top.

Your decision put you at more risk. There is no treed zone in the area you describe that isn't exposed to massive hang fire from above. That plus the fact that folks were descending above you is more than enough evidence that you were making a mistake.
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hitmanbob
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #41 on: 12/02/13, 09:19 AM »

Here, Someone at WWU made a guide for the Bagley Basin already.

Bagley Basin Safety

Nothing else needs to be said. Keep the pounders confined to "the backcountry" and let the gapers get carried. No better way to learn a lesson than to experience your poor decision making skills firsthand.
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Jason4
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Re: Bagley Lakes/ Artist Point Nov 16
« Reply #42 on: 12/02/13, 01:00 PM »

While I think it's an interesting exercise I don't think the avalanche mapping is very helpful or accurate.  The names are also on the wrong features, especially along the Arm, it looks like they moved everything over one feature.

The summary of their efforts is that everything at Baker is dangerous during and immediately after a storm and that avalanches start at the tops of hill and end at the bottom.
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Free your heel, free your mind.
Fix your heel, fix your problem.
- Pred, 2013
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