How warm is rando-race clothing?

At Vertfest last year, I was intrigued by the possibility of cutting a pound or more out of my gear by adopting clothing tactics from the race world. I'm willing to look goofy if it means I get to ski more.

How warm are ski-mo race tights compared with mid-weight softshells? Do they hold up to rain/sleet? Would I want warm pants in my pack as backup/survival gear on winter days?

I don't think a pound or two will make any difference in your performance, esp. if you are just carrying warm clothes in the pack in case you need them. Who know's, though? Try it...

At Vertfest last year, I was intrigued by the possibility of cutting a pound or more out of my gear by adopting clothing tactics from the race world. I'm willing to look goofy if it means I get to ski more.

How warm are ski-mo race tights compared with mid-weight softshells? Do they hold up to rain/sleet? Would I want warm pants in my pack as backup/survival gear on winter days?

You need to visit a website called "coldthistle". It's basically a gear geek blog by a local ice climber/skier called Dane.
Dane has a woody for skimo clothing and the blog talks about euro-trash( and now Wasatch)skimo freaks and weight weenie neurotics ad nauseam.
Do a search here.
coldthistle.blogspot.com/

Isn't one of the big advantages of a rando race suit is that since it is a "onesy" so you can't get snow down your butt?

C.A.M.P makes some interesting gear to help you keep from freezing on the descent portion -- including a wind breaker that you can put on without removing your pack,  www.camp-usa.com/products/apparel/flash-anorak-1446.asp

For myself the biggest drag on my uphill speed is the month's worth of emergency rations I carry on my waist and butt.

It's warm enough, and weather proof enough if you keep moving, the guys that are wearing race suits in the mountains are typically moving quickly, without stopping. Typically any backup gear is also minimal. Although the suits are lighter, the benefits aren't necessarily limited to weight;breathability, less fiddle factor, ease of skin storage etc. are more important features. If weight savings is the goal, bigger gains, or losses I should say, could be achieved through lighter skis, boots, bindings.

Not sure about the performance benefits, but you will look goofy.

To me, more than weight, the advantages are in keeping cooler and not feeling restricted by non-stretch material. I can't imagine going racing speed in shell pants and coat. Too hot and stiff. It's better to feel free!

But you don't have go all in and wear a speedsuit. Try it out in some running tights and a spandex top to see how you like it. Though you do get snow in the boots with running tights.

Going back to my days as a runner, we never overdressed for racing. 25 degrees and snowing... most would still wear the bun huggers and tight tank top with maybe some gloves. Oh, and no undergarments under that.

Back in the day (Here we go again :) when At skiers were few and far between we wore swim trunks over long underwear as required by unwritten pre TAY nordic rules. I personally gravitated to throwing the shorts away and using all weather Cannondale bicycle tights. Worked good i was never cold but did carry backup goretex Worked great and light but one also needed gaiters. I am so glad that the new stretch fabrics came along that cover the boot tops.
Rando racing is probaly quite a warm affair and possible exposure is limited and totally different than 5 miles out in the backcountry with your car the last one at the traihead.

Thanks for the replies!

I'd known about Dane's Coldthistle site, but hadn't seen this review : coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/06/camp-co...taineering-race.html

That backless jacket is crazy!

Are the race suits warm-enough when the PNW precip is dumping? I feel like I'd get pretty cold with just a base layer when things are piling up (or if skiing through a bunch of pow). I sometimes wear a bike jersey when touring, and really like it; breathable, but wind-resistant.

Agreed about the goofiness, but plenty of things are goofy until they're done right.

Do the stretchier materials get shredded when you're skiing trees? (It's not skiing at Snoqualmie until you're either crashing through adjoining trees or giving one a hug...)

you'll be fine as long as you don't stop. this is a style i endorse for the hot ladies too.
b

Ed, you're already converted to AT, it's only a matter of time before you rock the skin suit...Charlie, honestly I think that in the PNW with our large quantity of precip the race suit only has use for racing, fitness skiing or big days in the spring. It really doesn't provide much protection if it's dumping. Light weight soft shells with a good water repellent treatment are the way to go. Oh, and as far as all you skin suit haters, don't knock it 'til you try it, until then enjoy the view of the of the nice tight pants as they pass you on the skin track!

think i would just look up to the trees.
b

Thanks for the replies!

I'd known about Dane's Coldthistle site, but hadn't seen this review : coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/06/camp-co...taineering-race.html

Yes..exactly.!.. I saw that review and pic of Dane in full resplendent eurotrash skimo costume and thought you'd like it.
Totally impracticable for normal PNW winter IMO ( unless you pick a cold, dry day) but Ok for PNW spring.

Ypou may want to combine the skimo suit with these anti-fart underwear....for those behind you in the skintrack since you will be ahead all the time now!

www.thespec.com/news-story/4192386-high-...-filters-flatulence/

you'll be fine as long as you don't stop. this is a style i endorse for the hot ladies too.
b

Seconded

I was intrigued by the possibility of cutting a pound or more out of my gear by adopting clothing tactics from the race world.

Hi Charlie.  I think Brandon covered the important  part if you want to drop weight.  "If weight savings is the goal, bigger gains, or losses I should say, could be achieved through lighter skis, boots, bindings."

Huge gains to be had in the hardware first.  If you are a modern Troglodyte pretending to be all back country hip fast and light on a pair of heavy Mercuries for example, Dynafit TLT RAD FLs and a pair of 112mm x 190 under your feet lycra isn't going to be any help.  Soft shell pants and a hard shell top of one kind or another is a better answer for that set up.  I lift and side/c ski in something similar all winter.  Perfect set of kit for my own use.

I took a cue the previous season and then at Vertfest last year in the nasty weather but had the point driven home on Rainer watching successive  speed runs in person this summer by first the Canadians then the Utah boys and finally Brian and my own trip.   Good weather or bad, lycra works just fine.  But it has a few limitations worth noting.

My lwt gear (ski/boot and binders)  are 4# 6oz per foot with a 80mm under foot,  Up only 4 oz on full race gear.   Pleanty good for anything off Rainier or any other peak in the NW/Europe that I am capable of skiing, steep or any distance.

More here on a lighter skis, same boots and bindings..
coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-inc...htness-of-being.html

>How warm are ski-mo race tights compared with mid-weight softshells?

I used the Arcteryx Gamma LT soft shell pant a lot in the mountains including some damn cold temps. -30C is common with a decent base layer or may be two.  It is almost lycra by weight.   Any decent lycra tight is close/ the same for wind protection and warmth IMO.  Really depends on what you layer with I think to get the warmth you require.

I also alpine ski a lot in Patagonia's alpine guide pants...which i find too warm for my use while touring.  It is a mid weight soft shell.  Gamma LT is by far my favorite climbing and skimo pant short of lycra.   

>Do they hold up to rain/sleet?

Not as good as a heavy pair of soft shells.  But not far off either.  There is no DWR generally on Lycra.  Lycra is made to breath and block the wind.  They do insualte while wet and break the wind still.  Few things dry faster.

>Would I want warm pants in my pack as backup/survival gear on winter days?

If you take a lot of "backup/survival gear on winter days"  Lycra is probably not for you.   The real advantages to lycra is  in a very high energy output mode.   If you have lycra bike or running gear that you use 
consistantly I would encourage you to try an of the while on skis.  Just do it in a comfortable setting with soem back up to see what you think.

There are ski-mo specifci shells. But if I want a shell I generally really want a shell. Not just a garbage bag layer to keep me alive.

>Are the race suits warm-enough when the PNW precip is dumping?

Dumping?  No.  Typical snowing, foggy, raining, windy, OK for skiing and not so OK weather?  Sure.  Used the Moment Pant and some kind of top many long days (8 plus hours)  out like that.  Same days everyone else is all bundled up, sweating and wet on the ski tracks.  Lycra..or at least the right thickness of lycra/soft shell clothing has a much bigger temperture spectrum of use than what you would think.

Funny comments by some, but obviously not everyone commenting has actually used this kind of clothing for skiing. 

Most here know the tour around Chair.   I do it often now and always in lycra of various sorts, or a lwt soft shell pant and a wind shell on top.  Most typical insulation is a Patagonia nano puff which most of the time will be in the pack. It is a full day out for me generally, rain or shine.

>I feel like I'd get pretty cold with just a base layer when things are piling up

You will, if it is laying down a couple of inches an hour of heavy wet snow.  No question likely not the right choice in clothing.  But then a hard shell is going to be required prior to  that anyway isn't it?  And what you'll be skiing for terrian will drop as fast as the snow does.   Lycra is back country ski gear, weather dependant but it is not lift ski gear unless the sun is out and the wind is still.

>(or if skiing through a bunch of pow).

I have skied lycra in Utah powder.  The Dorias brothers and a slew of Wasatch/Teton guys do on a daily basis.   Lycra is proven in pow and nasty weather.  Takes two minutes sorting through any of the European multiday ski-mo races or NA skimo blogs to realise how just how good the clothing really is. 

> I sometimes wear a bike jersey when touring, and really like it; breathable, but wind-resistant.

then ya already got the whole idea...it works if you need it or can take advantage of it

>Do the stretchier materials get shredded when you're skiing trees?

In general No.  Ever seen what a bad bike crash does to anyone in lycra?  Nasty road rash but many time the lycra comes out way betetr than expected.  Skin underneath isn't as tough as the lycra. LWT soft shells hold up amazingly well obviously.  I've taken two nasty falls on hard spring snow in lycra and the lycra was fine...me not so much.

>"Totally impracticable for normal PNW winter"

Ya that?  It's nonsense.  Proven wrong in literally every mountain range where you can get a latte;D   And in some you can't get a latte so easily!

Thanks for the reply, Dane. I'm already a convert to the ways of light skis, bindings, and boots. All of them, in my lightest setup, are as light as I can afford.

Only one quibble: I happily wear softshell pants when it's snowing >1"/hr. I only switch to a hard shell on my legs if precip is really wet/liquid.

Uphilling, I'm generally in a base layer, but I don't want to screw around with pant variations through the day; whatever I wear from the car needs to work all day, including optional snow study, etc. I don't dig often, but I don't want my clothing to limit my decision-making when it's warranted, nor to be useless in a rescue scenario because I'm cold.

My pack almost always contains whatever I think I need to spend a suffering night out.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone; I think I'm getting the picture that the race-like gear is optimal for moving fast when the weather isn't terrible. If some turns up cheap, perhaps I'll give it a spin this season.

(P.S. Thanks, Dane, for introducing me to the Flash 18. I hope that everyone who sews them gets to see some of the places their packs have travelled.)

"my lightest setup, are as light as I can afford."

Yep, that is the killer...as light as *I could afford*.  Stuff is crazy expensive even compared to bike and Porsche parts. Took three years for me to get where I wanted to be for weight.  Hope all the chatter helps some.  No sense reinventing the wheel.   Glad you like the Flash,  Great piece of kit!

FWIW I just found another soft shell pant I really like from Mountain Equipement,   Rivals or betters the Gamma LT and generally seen for $100 or less on sale,  Used them last few weeks with my lwt gear and really, really like them for skiing/booting.  A good step up from tights for weather protection.  And a quick trip through a hot drier gets the DWR back in tune.

Looking forward to some more snow...Muir is getting old

My pack always contains whatever I think I need to spend a suffering night out..........
And to hang out somewhere for a while and just enjoy being there. And be warm............
I carry Marmot side-zip, insulated overpants throughout the winter, really nice to put on before that last run all the way to the valley bottom where all the cold air is settling in midwinter, and your socks are a little damp................and be warm.......
I also recommend at least a puffy hood or a VERY warm hat. I carry a neck gaiter of some sort that functions as a light weight hat until I need more.
When it is dumping and the slightest bit wet on the way up, I like to flip my hooded shell up & over my head AND pack then tie or velcro the sleeves in front of me. A breathable, waterproof baseball cap bill keeps the hood from dropping over my eyes. This keeps snow from between pack and back and may even keep you warm and dry in your lycra. (I'll probably stick with wool)

You don't have to be all that far out to be in real trouble with an injury, lost ski, or sudden illness! Far harder to stay warm if you can't move except for shivering, or you gave up a layer to someone else who is.

I guess I prefer to ski more by getting out more and staying out later, and slow down (a little) and enjoy being out there rather than rush around and out just to stay warm.

Don't forget firestarter!

Dane,

When you ski wearing tights, do you use gaiters to keep snow out of boots?  What do you use that doesn't impede range of motion?

"You don't have to be all that far out to be in real trouble with an injury, lost ski, or sudden illness!"

True that.  Not that far at all.  Partners are good as well.  And knowing your own physical limitations.  There is little to compare a 7hr. round trip summit on Rainier compared to a 3 day summit of Rainer.  Your selection in gear has little to do with either time IMO.  A lot more physical effort to do it in 3 days than to do it in 6 hrs. simply becasue of the extra food, shelter and clothing required.

But carry 3 days of food, shelter and clothing and most won't be able to do Rainier in 7hrs.  Pick reasonable weather/conditions (alpinism on ski, ice or rock is all about conditions after all) and you don't need 3 days of kit to accomplish the task if you are physically able.

Same idea with what is in your pack.....or on your back for clothes.  Pick your conditions, dress and pack accordingly.  The Cascades are no different than any other mountian range...although the weather and snow  forcasting is problematic in comparison because of the Pacific expanse.

You just need to pay more attention here.  Having the ability to move quickly and safely with modern lwt gear just opens up a lot of terrian to those willing to pay attention.

You can be "well prepared" with a 10# pack just as easily as you can be with a 45# pack.  The real difference is what is between your ears prior to a trip and what you are willing to listen to and act on once you leave the parking lot.

I've spent worse nights out on planned bivies than I have on bare bones unplanned bivies.  The reason?  Not being totally aware of the conditions we would encounter.   Same place I had this fire and nothing else to spare I  was almost comforatble.  The year prior, in the same place, I spent a night in a tent, in a sleeping bag, with a stove, still shivering violently a good part of the night.  Being "well prepared" goes miles past what you carry in your pack or decide to wear for clothing.

When you ski wearing tights, do you use gaiters to keep snow out of boots?  What do you use that doesn't impede range of motion?

No gaiters yet.  But I am looking.  Depends on the boot.  TlT6 skiing with no tongue I can usually get by with soft shell pants, no gaiter.  And stay reasonable dry using just an elastic cord under tha pant.  Makes transitions slow however getting to the walk mode.    But snow in the boots can be a problem if you don't sort it out early on.  I have only found pant gaiters (lycra or soft shell)  to work really well if you chop a hole in the pant.  Painfull on expensive pants.  Ski-mo specific pants like the Dynafit Movement and RACE pants and ski-mo tights usually have some kind of pant gaiter built in that stretches over the boot tops.  No lack of ROM on those.  It is slick system if done right.   I have 3 different pieces of ski-mo lycra and all work OK to varing degrees.  The CAMP USA system is the best I have seen to date for the TLTs.  Scarpa Alien's buckle is easier to cover with pants but the boot's seal worse.   None of the race boots are well designed to keep your feet dry.  Dumb imo.  TLT5/6 is just marginally better than race boots with no tongue installed.   Talk about being prepared?!  Cold wet feet sound prepared to you?

I have also just used Costco Paragon synthetic long johns.  Just pulled the cuff down to my locking pin on the TLT6.  Boot stays dry enough that way ..usually.  They are cheap and not so painful if you want to cut them up to have a buckle hole set up.  Bigger boot/cuff sizes need not apply.

As you suspected it is a problem even with the expensive pants/suits designed to solve the problem.  Most of the race suits have it all figured out.  But holly chit they want a lot of money for the fix!

I have wrecked a couple pair of bike tights trying to get them to work over the boot tops.  Nothing easy there yet for me.  But I am still looking. 

Thanks Dane for the excellent insight!

None of this is rocket science, nor requires any deep experience to figure it out.  Simple:  if you go light with your clothing, you have to keep moving.  If you want to be warm when not moving, then you need warm (heavier) layers to put on.  If you go light and have to stop for any length of time, you'll likely become hypothermic.   

Maybe some suggestions on the lightest warm layers, or the warmest light layers, would be helpful, but that info has been out there for a long time.  You don't need the techiest stuff out there...it's just marketing BS from the people that want to sell you the latest fad...now its the Rando racing world that they think will get your attention and your money.

If they develop an extremely thin, lightweight fabric that has significant insulating properties, I'll be the first to buy it.

You can be "well prepared" with a 10# pack just as easily as you can be with a 45# pack.  The real difference is what is between your ears prior to a trip and what you are willing to listen to and act on once you leave the parking lot.

I don't buy this...the question is: "well-prepared for what?". To stay in one place in cold temps for an extended period of time? I don't think so.

I don't discount the "fast and light" fad. It has, and has always had, it's place in mountaineering.

Nobody is arguing with your fast and light mantra Dane.....many of us a true believers and have been following that mantra for years.....in fact, many of us are bemused but the huge amounts of gear, clothing and packs that some of the "10Essential crowd" and especially Mountaineer club trained tourers seem the need to carry and preach to the rest of us about.

I was out on Saturday and 6 people started following my skin track, all beginners from what i could see, judging by the size of their packs, overdress and shit dangling off their packs. Many of us have read Mark Twight's bible and Steve House's essays and understand the benefits. Even they say...fine as long as the weather is good and pick your day.

However,

I have experimented with some of your Lycra clothing( bike gear mainly) and cutting it down so that I basically had to keep moving to stay warm.... its' great and fabulous when it all works out ..but when it doesn't...when you get slowed down by your partner..or a skin or ski problem surfaces...or you just want a break..or the weather changes unexpectedly...I've found the margin of error is too small for this climate....in general...especially when you tour 3/4 days a week all winter.
Sure..special days...pretty confident weather windows....big goal days...but for everyday use......too fine a margin....at least for me.
There's a happy medium

BTW...There was some of the 6..who booted up the skin track!!!!!......JEEEEESUS. H Christ....when will it stop!

First of all, when discussing expensive weight saving gear, take a good look in the mirror and put in the sweat equity. Losing 5lbs off the middle is 5 pounds you are not carrying uphill.

Secondly, ask yourself this question: What is my objective? If it involves trying to travel X distance in under Y time, then yes clothes that were made for exercising in are certainly better to do said exercise in.  Racing, self imposed time trial up to Muir, wear gear purposed for racing.

But if it is a question of, "gee this powder is great and I'd sure like to get another lap in" or as you've posed it help you "ski more", is NOT wearing lycra really going to be the deal breaker? Hardly.  Getting to the TH on time, keeping properly fueled and hydrated, pacing oneself, minimizing transition times, not falling down, and staying dry are more important, as is having the underlying fitness to get it done.

Good points Mofro, but I think Charlie has all these boxes checked.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mr. Turner (who makes few turns, but makes them count)! .

Right now, I'd guess I have all the boxes save fitness checked; my grad-school thesis has kept me inside far too long.

Agreed that lycra's not going to magically turn me into Greg Hill (who doesn't wear lycra, but gets more vertical than almost anyone). When starting this thread, I was curious about any advantages that lycra might yield and whether skimo-specific clothes were warm; everyone's replies have been interesting and useful.

My intention wasn't to argue.  Lots of people here doing way more than I ever have/will.

Many times a drop in body weight is better than a drop in gear weight. I wouldn't make that an "always better" suggestion however. Your decision which is a better answer for you. 

I understand the commercialism in the outdoor industry better than most.  Good bit of it is hype.  But not all.  Some is actually real innovation.  Advances are generally a combo of efforts.  Physical, mental and equipment.

Greg Hill's lwt gear as an example..

>"You can be "well prepared" with a 10# pack just as easily as you can be with a 45# pack."

>I don't buy this...the question is: "well-prepared for what?". 

Well prepared for a specific objective.  If your 45# pack prepares you for a pre-planned day or two out you are good to go.  If the same 45# is to  prepare you for a quick ascent of Rainier I'd say you are indeed prepared for a couple of days out...and you'll generally need them carring 45#s on your back.

The answer is to match what you carry and use for gear and clothing to your specific objectives. Taking the same gear on every trip..puts limits on what you are capable of. Think about it. Which was my point.

The answer is to match what you carry and use for gear and clothing to your specific objectives.  Taking the same gear on every trip..puts limits on what you are capable of.  Think about it.  Which was my point.

I agree...kind of a no-brainer.  That's the way I generally do things.  Over time, a competent outdoorsman will do this naturally. 

A corollary to what you are saying is: "people generally carry way more than what they really need".