Tent or Bivy?

All of my ski trips are day jaunts. I have considered the extended trip for 1-2 days to fullfill some of those long time, wish list, ski trips. I have considered purchasing a bivy for the light and fast. One with the hoop attachment at the end so I don't feel to confined. But the lure of the lighter tents are an option for some roomy comfort especially if you have a guest. I would love to hear from the experienced posters who have some education in this arena. Also, Thermarest vs. foampad?<br>Thanks-Joe

I recently bought one of the newer Black Diamond tents--I think they call it a First Light. It's a wedge design the same size as a Bibler I-tent. It uses some sort of semi-waterproof, semi-breathable fabric that is very light. I haven't slept in the rain yet in it, but I think it would be a good choice for the sort of trip you describe. It packs remarkably small and weighs under 3 lbs. I've used bivi sacks and pyramid style tents, but I really like getting inside a tent that cuts the wind so you can cook and rest in comfort. If you're just doing a single overnight, and you're shooting for good weather anyway, I think a tent like this would be fine even if the fabric proves to be a bit leaky.<br><br>On our recent Dome Peak trip, we had considerable condensation inside the tent during our second night out, when the fog and mist moved in. The other nights I've been out in it (which have been fair weather) the tent stayed dry inside. I always carry a wash cloth to sop up tent moisture. Here's a link found by google:<br><br>www.mtntools.com/cat/camping/tent/blackd...ndfirstlighttent.htm

The newer 3/4 length thermarests are very nice. I prefer thermarests to foam pads because they are more comfortable and packable, although slightly heavier. Use your pack as your pad under your feet.

The last things you'll want for those lightweight overnights are a light down bag and a cartridge stove with a small pot. I did a shakedown overnighter at Rainier a couple months ago where I easily got my tent, pad, 1-lb. sleeping bag and small cookset in my normal daypack. What a pleasure!

Here's a picture showing how compact some of this modern gear is. The pot was selected because the cartridge stove fits inside perfectly. I haven't weighed it, but the whole kit must weigh less than six pounds.

<br><br>Wow, I sure let myself get distracted this morning! Back to work...

I think it depends, as you say, on whether you have a guest along as well as what sort of weather you get. There's no substitute for a tent when it gets really nasty and you have to hang out for a day or two, and there are some pretty cool and light single wall tents out now. When you split up the tent and, say, stove/fuel with two the weight evens out. Don't know about the Black Diamond offerings for the NW (anyone using these?) but the regular Biblers are bomber and the Mountain Hardwear EV2 looks nice. <br><br>I've used several bivys (bivies?) including the Bibler Hooped, a North Face XCR bivy, and currently an Integral Designs Salathe, and all are fine for moderate rain/light snow. The Salathe is cool because it has fairly long zippers on both sides; you can cook/eat in it and even relieve yourself during the night (on snow at least) without getting out of your bag (well, probably guys only). If the weather looks marginal I also take an 8 x 12 sil-nylon tarp. With more people, we usually take a Mega-lite.<br><br>Pads? Foam is effective but big. The new ThermaRest Pro-lites are nice and pack pretty small. I've been using an Exped air-only mattress (tiny, about the size of half a sandwich from Subway) along with the foam pad I normally have in my pack anyway (foam pad needs to go between you and air mattress on snow).<br><br>

Tents are expensive. Hence, I have a simple bivy, and a BD Betalite (bought the day after a trip when digging a cave took four hours). I haven't used the combination in winter yet, but for summer camping the Betalite is wonderful. Of course, really high winds will probably destroy it. <br><br>I have found that bivies are miserable when there's any kind of preciptation or spindrift. You can't zip the thing closed without suffocating, so there's always a hole for stuff to get through. <br><br>I'd get the lightest, simplest bivy available (eg Integral Designs Endurance, or Montbell ULSBC), and a tarp/tent thing with it. <br><br>The EPIC tents are somewhat strange, but I know a guy who has one, and he says in rain the thing leaks like a sieve. Might be ok in the snow...<br><br>As for pads, I just carry a cheap foam pad. I'm sure that I'd puncture a thermarest in a heartbeat.

Paul has a good point - the single wall tents I covet are all in the $600 range and almost never get discounted. Even the basic I-tent is $540 (kinda small, even for short guys like me), the Eldorado is $575, and the EV2 is $625, I believe. Hard to justify unless you are doing a fair amount of winter camping, especially when you also need to buy things like skis . . .<br><br>Edited to add: I did see a used Bibler I-tent at Second Ascent a week or two ago for $300 (one hole, patched, perfect otherwise). Decided to make the car payment instead.

Nothing like a good gear question to spark the gearheads!<br><br>

we had considerable condensation inside the tent during our second night out, when the fog and mist moved in. down bag and a cartridge stove with a small pot.

<br>Thanks for the link Lowell! I always need another gear site. I looked at the First light and it was one of my first choices. I was concerned with the condensation and no windows, plus extra costs for all the add-ons. <br>The down bag is also on the list since what degree bag do you find that works well. I am under the assumtion/fear that the bag will get wet from condensation and make the trip a wash. On the cartridge stove my concerns were that it would not be as effective in upper elevations and produce(s) enough heat, plus considering how much fuel to carry along?<br><br>My drawback on the Bibler was that the target is mainly spring tour and the tent poles are my ski poles-would I need to break down the tent to ski?!<br><br>I really like the Mega Light for a fast tent design (cost 200 something), but I am uncertain of the airyness of that style. Other thoughts include-Well if I get the Mega Light I need a floor, and if I camp in the warmer lower areas I will need a bug shield which all add to weight and costs.<br><br>I like Pauls response in reguard to suffocation in a bivy-I can relate.<br>Greg those car payments get in the way of some great purchases.<br><br>Costs factor to making a good decisions, so I do not have a quiver like everything else just for an infrequently used item.<br>Thanks for that responses-<br>Joe

Everybody has different tastes and requirements, so all the advice you get will be valid, even if it's not what you ultimately follow. <br><br>Another reason I bought a First Light is that I think it will be the perfect tent for hikes with my 8-year-old son. We only go out when the weather looks nice, and I carry all the overnight gear, so a little tent like this (with a mosquito net) will be great for hikes with him. I didn't buy any extras for it.<br><br>As for cartridge stoves, I think they're adequate for anywhere in the Cascades. An 8-oz. cartridge will cook three dinners for a single person in spring, even if you're melting snow (assuming a quick meal like Ramen).<br><br>I've been meaning to test the First Light out in the back yard on one of these rainy evenings to see how much it leaks. My philosophy is that nearly all tents leak, and a lot depends on how you manage your gear inside. A few garbage bags and strategically placed items can go a long way toward keeping your sleeping bag from getting wet from the tent walls. (I mentioned condensation in the tent on the Dome Peak trip, but my sleeping bag was dry in the morning.)<br><br>In the interest of full disclosure, I must confess that I'm one of those guys with a quiver of tents. I've got a bivi sack, a Bibler Eldorado, a pyramid, and now a First Light. I keep looking for lighter gear because I'm not getting any younger!

<br>The EPIC tents are somewhat strange, but I know a guy who has one, and he says in rain the thing leaks like a sieve. Might be ok in the snow...<br><br>

<br><br>You're friend should send it back to Black Diamond if it's not performing as advertised.<br><br>I have the BD Lighthouse. I've used it a few times in heavy rains and it was fine. Condensation is more of a real problem than leaking like a sieve. I'm very happy with mine and actually got rid of my heavier and bulkier Integral Designs, which also collects condensation but the fuzzy inner liner hides it. <br><br>

It certainly is easy to go overboard on the lilghtness thing. Here is bit of what I have learned this spring:<br><br>Granite Gear (Vapor Trail) pack (32 oz). Great!! Has all the ties I need, carries skis diagonal of A-frame, 3200 CC, skis well.<br><br>Marmot bags -- the Hydrogen weighs 1 oz more than the Atom and provides baffle construction. Worth the ounce.<br><br>Silnylon tarp ( 14 oz) and bivy bag 9 (oz) -- too minimal. I'm ready to upgtrade to a small tent. Three nights on volcanoes in a flapping tarp has me thinking that a night's sleep is worth carrying an extra half pound. On Adams I gave up and dug a snow cave in the last light.<br><br>Tiny (4 oz) canister stove with self ignition-- how did I ever live without this one?!

Granite Gear (Vapor Trail) pack (32 oz).  Great!! Has all the ties I need, carries skis diagonal of A-frame, 3200 CC, skis well.

<br>Wow, is that pack very durable? I looked at it yesterday in a store, I'm afraid I'd shred it rapidly.

Another vote for the Marmot Hydrogen - 30 degree, 900 fill, works well for spring and you could stretch it to winter use (wear down booties and fleece gloves to bed).<br><br>MSR Superfly stove with piezo: Cooks fine, at least up to 10,000 ft., but the piezo struggles in the cold - bring a lighter!

Jeff, I don't think any of the ultra light packs are going to last more than a year or two of heavy use. I think the Granite Gear packs are much more durable than the Gossamer series, and not as durable as the Gregory packs. Somewhere between strength and lightness we find the balance appropriate for ourselves. I am old enough and financially able enough to have to put up with a reasonable replacement rate in order to keep my weight down. In a couple years I may be going through 4.7 oz packs, one a weekend!<br><br>That said, I carried 60 lb in it two weeks ago, when a companion suffered heat exhaustion and needed some help with his gear. It carried well and suffered no damage.

Must contradict.<br><br>I consider the Wild Things Icesac to be both super-light and very durable. I've been using it for pretty much all my trips since March and it's showing no signs of wear. I think it will last me more than one season, and it is good for trips ranging from day trips to as long as I'll go. <br><br>And I love to bivy. I don't own a tent. If I think I'll need a tent, I opt to drink beer instead.<br><br>Just my too sense.

The Betamid is relatively inexpensive, light, and simple. For a little more $$ a sil-nylon version is made. I like using my ski poles instead of carrying a pole, and also utilize skis to anchor the sides, to reduce the number of snow stakes to carry. I also have an old Megamid. Site prep is necessary usually with a shovel on snow and boot pack for a good pitch. <br><br>Advantages of being floorless include no floor to get wet (just the bottom of your pad). Some tent floors may have better treatments, but I grew tired in the past of packing a wet tent floor if the opportunity for drying was not feasible. Also, snow can be scooped from one corner of a floorless tent for melting, other fluids dumped into the snow in another corner. Your dog can sleep in on his mini dog pad and not get as much hair on the tent and raise the ambient internal temperature in the tent.<br><br>Disadvantages of a floorless tent are skill and effort required for a good pitch, especially in wind; it can be breezy on a volcano under the sides of a Betamid if not properly pitched. And the tighter the seal of the bottom, the more condensation, so one needs to have some walls of snow and some ventilation. Cooking in a storm in my Megamid has resulted in serious inside condensation and resultant ice coating sometimes that melts and drips (avoid). However, spills in a floorless tent are not a problem. I dream of a tent design that incorporates a lightweight battery fan and vents that remove the condensation. <br><br>My military experience allowed me to sleep, even in winter (albeit briefly) under a military poncho "bivy", so one must weigh what can be done and what one wants to do. Getting dressed, eating, reading, etc. in a bivy can be challenging. I had a one hoop bivy before getting the first Megamid and used it only a few times.<br><br>I must confess that I covet the First Light, which would have advantages in ease of pitching and in bad weather. On the other hand, I now tend to be a fair weather wimp in regard to mountain trips since I worked outdoors in the Cascades in all seasons for a dozen years. Another important personal concept to prevent tent failure is to get out of the high country before the bad weather moves in. I would usually rather be at home with my family unless it is nice weather in the high country, anyway. Equipment to tolerate bad weather weighs more, and it is possible to stay in bad weather if one wants to carry the weight. <br><br>I have slept in my 2 lb. REI Cyclops 40 degree bag in all seasons for 18 years. Obviously, it is durable, and I am a warm sleeper. In winter to sleep I wear booties, Gore Tex pants over my Patagonia Guide pants, and my puff or down jacket, and just stay toasty. My theory is that I will have the cold weather clothing, so if I sleep in it in a 40 degree bag it should be fine, and it has been. I think the ideal design of a bag would be to have the bottom zip open to wear as a coat, as Western Mountaineering has done with a down light bag. And there are 1/2 bags to combine with a down parka.<br><br>For four years I have used the Exped down air mat, a luxurious and warm 3 1/2 inch mattress with a reasonable weight. The Ridge Rest or Thermarest are fine also in my experience, but the thick cushion of the down air mat is a comfort in my advanced age.<br><br>Overnight one can take the pre-made food in sealed plastic and foil for dinner such as Dinty Moore in the supermarket (peel the corner of the foil to vent and put it in hot water to heat- no dirty pot to clean), or the military MRE or some other stuff and avoid prep and diswashing. In fact, the premade meal packs with a chemical heater (like MREs) are now available from hunting outfitters, so one could save stove fuel (and inside tent condensation from running the stove) as well. A few ounces of packaged prepared food for dinner is worth the convenience to me. Further, to avoid complexity and conserve fuel in the AM I like oatmeal bars with peanut butter (heavy duty nutrition) with my hot instant espresso (Albertson's) / instant Cappucino mix. I owned one of the backpacker espresso makers but just decided to use instant for simplicity. I feel that if one can get over complexity in food prep/ consumption, much weight and time (and condensation) is saved. Overnight I just need the small Snow Peak stove with piezo lighter and a 1 hour canister in the titanium pot that will nest it.<br><br><br>Simple, light, and comfortable are a feasile combination, in my view.

Must contradict.<br><br>I consider the Wild Things Icesac to be both super-light and very durable. I've been using it for pretty much all my trips since March and it's showing no signs of wear. I think it will last me more than one season, and it is good for trips ranging from day trips to as long as I'll go. <br>

<br>Seconded. Best pack on the market, by far. And it carries leaps and bounds better than my internal-frame Arc'teryx Khamsin 62. <br><br>Wild Things deserves to be more popular. I strongly urge everybody to go to Pro Mountain Sports and buy one. Today. ;D

Hey Sky and Paul - any idea on the weight of the Icesac? Wildthing's doesn't list the wt for the std version (www.wildthingsgear.com/icesac.html), though it does list the wt for the spectra version @ 3lbs 8ounces. It's definitely pretty light but it's not as light as the Granite Gear Vapor which is 1lbs 14ounces (www.granitegear.com/products/backpacks/u...por_trail/index.html).

Packs are one item that I'm currently willing to accept several onces of more weight (within reason) for increased durability and easier organization. Skis/boots/bindings I'm more weight conscience about -- you know how the saying goes, a lb on your feet is 1,000lbs on your back (or something like that :-)).

Maybe the next trend in ultralight gear will be disposable packs, intended for just one use? 8)

Joe:  there are pros and cons with any system.  here's my current gear list and why i think they are important.<br><br>tent vs. bivy<br>i own a light North Face two-person tent.  it's only a 3 season model but if i'm careful about where and how i pitch it, it can withstand a lot.  however, in the past few years i've switched to using an Integral Designs Silshelter and a simple bag cover ( Integral Designs Endurance ).  the tart-like shelter and bag cover weigh 16 oz. and 10 oz., respectively.  i stopped carrying my tent because of weight. also, the tarp and bag cover combo takes up very little room compared to my tent, vestibule, and poles.  i find it more comfortable to travel light.  here are some examples of my Silshelter:<br><br>1. Pitched <br>2. camp.  one small tent and two tarp shelters.  the gray one is mine. <br><br>my Silshelter accomodates two, plus gear.  it requires one ski pole in the middle.  small cord are used to properly tension the shelter, and if properly configured, the system is surprisingly sturdy.  it has no floor, so rodents can be a problem, and if it's pitched at a local minium, then you get the waterbed effect.  and without bug netting, mosquitos can be a problem too, but that's what head nets are for .  all things considered, i prefer it over a tent for most of what i do.  i often plan my overnight trips when the weather is relatively stable, so i don't need as much weather protection as a tent.  if the weather is bad and i still want to get out, then i go out for a day trip instead. overall, a tarp works for me because it's simple and light, and versatile.  i sometimes carry it on day trips just in case i need it to wait out an unexpected rain storm.<br><br>i have done one modification to my Silshelter though.  the opening has no zipper, so i picked up a #3 sized zipper from Seattle Fabrics on HWY99 and attached it.  a 30-minute sewing-machine job did the trick.  now i can zip the opening shut.<br><br>pack<br>i've used a lot of packs.  one of my favorites is the Osprey Ceres 50L.  it works for day and overnight trips.  i've even used it on 3-day ski trip and had extra food left.  it's not very big, so i have to be careful what i put in it.  having said that, four months ago i got a Wild Things Rock Sac.  it doesn't have a frame, just a foam pad, so i was skeptical, but surprisingly it works great!  i modified the pack by sewing a new top lid which is smaller and lighter than the original.  i use the regular top lid when i need more room, and the homemade one on day trips.  the pack material is very durable as Sky has pointed out.  it's light too, and of course, very simple.  but you have to pack smart to ensure comfort.  i think it's more comfortable than my Ceres which has a frame.  interesting...<br><br>stove<br>i own both a gas stove and canister stove.  for trips where i don't have to melt much snow for water and when the temperature is relatively warm, i use my canister stove.  i use it the most, actually. it's simple and light and packs nicely.<br><br>pad<br>foam, of course, because i'm not good around sharp pointy thingys.<br><br>anyway, good luck shopping for gear!

Jeff, Jim Nelson lists it as 2lbs 15oz on his website. I believe that he weighs all the gear he sells himself, so I'd assume this is fairly realistic. It's hard to find commercial packs under 1 lbs per 1000 cubic inches, and the icesac meets this criterion. <br><br>Not, it's not going to be as light as the Golite silnylon packs, but it's many times more durable. And I guarantee that the icesac carries skis and boots better than the Granite Gear featherweight stuff. <br><br>Yeah, it's nice to minimize weight, but it's hard to justify the extremes given that this pack will frequently have size 13 Denalis strapped to it. Like Ray Jardine says, if you want to minimize weight, focus on the heavy items. <br><br>Kam, is the silshelter really big enough for two? I set one up at REI and remember that it really wasn't big enough to fit one (well, fit me, would that be like three 'normal' people?).

Paul: i should clarify. i mean two small people. on snow, when you dig down a bit, it's pretty roomy. how's the BD Beta Light thingy? i almost got one of those.<br>

I keep looking for lighter gear because I'm not getting any younger!

<br>Yes Lowell, but the last time I checked, you weren't getting any slower either <br><br>I believe it's good to have a quiver of everything! This way, you can choose the right tool for the job "almost" every time. I say "almost" because there will always be those times where you choose something and then realize something else would have done better AFTER you're already out there...<br>Just make sure you don't spend more time acquiring gear than you do using it.<br>

A second thanks to all whom are contributing to this topic!<br>I have learned a great deal from this info.<br>The only thing I like better about skiing and outdoors equipment is getting seasoned performance reviews!<br>Gotta love the links to the tents and that photo Lowell posted sizing the pack load!<br>Kam-I think that the Silshelter may be to small for my tall frame as Paul was leaning to say.<br>I have not used the Beta light, but it really looks like the winner on tarp shelter stuff. It has ample room and weighs in around 4oz. Two pole design. www.bdel.com/gear/beta_light.php <br>Joe

<br>I believe it's good to have a quiver of everything!  This way, you can choose the right tool for the job "almost" every time.  I say "almost" because there will always be those times where you choose something and then realize something else would have done better AFTER you're already out there...<br>Just make sure you don't spend more time acquiring gear than you do using it.<br>

<br><br>I agree. I have three tents that I rotate between. A Sierra Designs two person, similar to this one www.sierradesigns.com/tents.display.php?id=67 , Sierra Designs one person www.sierradesigns.com/tents.display.php?id=45 and a Black Diamond Lightsabre www.bdel.com/gear/lightsabre.php <br><br>I think with most of the Sierra Designs stuff you can use the rain fly and ground cloth as a shelter and leave the tent at home. At least this is what I do with mine. I have put both of these through a lot and could recomend both.<br><br>I can't really say much about the BD Bivy other than it is very lite and packs down to the size of a Nalgene bottle. I have only used it once on a very dry and warm night. It is made out of the same stuff the LiteHouse is made of that Lowell spoke about earlier. Before I purchased it I was kind of leery about getting it because I was not sure how it would hold up in the rain. So in the show room we got a bucket of water and dumped it over the bivy and it seemed to do alright. I will have to test it in the back yard in the rain to see how it really holds up. <br><br>This is what I use for a mattress www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=41&cID=1 I originally got it for my girlfriend to use, as I have always used a foam mattress because I would never use one of those sissy blow up mattresses.<br>After using the "sissy mattress" I will never go back to a foam mattress except for more insulation. this thing is sooooooo comfy and warm. I used to use a 3/4 length but now it's full length. Maybe I'm just wimping out.<br><br>Aaron<br><br>

Oh my! We are all such complete gear geeks!

oh, i forgot to mention: for those on a tight budget, Cass-we-pay has a great low-cost alternative, the Ghetto-Mid. he can explain better than i how to construct such a shelter, so i'll give him the floor...

Joe,<br><br>Regarding the size on the Silshelter, I can easily fit my hulking 6-foot frame under it. I've had mine for about 3-4 years, and I like it more every time I take it out. In ultra-low-profile mode it even fit the Casshole and I fully laid out while shedding a nasty wind at Ice Lakes. True, it was uncomfortable and condensation rained like a Seattle afternoon, but still...<br><br>To follow-up on Kam's comment, I would add that Wee-pay also has a lightweight backcountry 2-hoop waterbed he occasionally brings out. That's livin' there, Sir.

Another vote for the SilShelter.<br><br>It's been a good solo shelter for me, It's kept me dry in a number of windy rainstorms. Proper setup is important in foul weather. (Entrance downwind, upwind side flush to the ground)<br><br>I've experience considerable condensation -- but that was on crystal clear, windless fall nights. <br><br>I think it would be a bit tight with two in bad weather -- Probably OK for a couple. <br><br>I did run into an OMC who was using theirs on a through hike of the PCT (Mexico-&gt;Canada). To deal will the bug issue they had sewn a swath of netting along the bottom edge of theirs.

Hummm... OMC ?? ???<br>"Old Mexican Couple"? (meaning, of course, that from Mexico to Washington would be a long walk and... well, ah, never mind, forget it.)<br> <br>Joe - you certainly came up with a question that generated some great contributions... <br>Nice Thread!!!

Sorry -- OMC = Old Married Couple

Hey Joe isn't tent shopping fun . Ron and I have the Bibler Eldorado, two door, no waiting tent ;D. He carries the tent, I carry the stove and fuel. Next time we're out I've got a couple of fun stories I can share with ya . We always keep a small sponge inside just in case we need to wipe up any snow melt or moisture. Anyway lot more new technology and choices, good luck. ;D

My intent for overnights is to avoid horrid weather, and therefore I pack just a thermarest pad (have my eyes on the new lighter ones) and carry my down jacket (Feathered Friends, forget the model, but it is the lightest one that uses baffled construction) that is made with a very water resistant lightweight fabric and added a hood. I also carry a 1+lb. down 1/2 bag (also Feathered Friends, same material, very lofty down) that has no zipper, but is long enough to pull up quite far and wide enough to not impact the loft of the jacket. This is all I need if no more than a light sprinkle is expected. Light snow is no matter. If the precip is more than that I pull out the tarp. Not great, but hell I will get through the night. Nothing beats sleeping, breathing cool fresh open air and not stairing at a nylon sky. Stars, northern lights and noctiluscent clouds are great at high altitude. Also, the small self lighting stove is a great confort.<br><br>But for me this is fair weather intentions, with some backup for late spring summer skiing, which over the last few years have been solo. I carry this stuff with me even on day trips for preparedness in case I am forced to stay out. With only one other partner, I would bring a tent, but only use it if necessary.<br><br>With my eight year old, I carry my MegaMid. Very roomy, for everything. Never worry about wet (ie. weighty) nylon floors, to dry. And bugs just ain't smart enough to get in, at least the mosquito types. In warm weather without bugs, I like raising the tent to leave a gap.