June 29, 2013, Dege Peak, Fall on steep, hard snow

Bad bruises and scratches only...

I mostly like to post picture here, but I'm still shook up about Saturday - so I'll vent. I'm also posting this as a general reminder to be careful out there, and specifically to ask for firsthand knowledge of how something like a Whippit works in real world conditions.

I was taking my 19 year old (resort skiing) expert daughter skinning for the first time. We started hiking up the trail from the viewpoint to Dege Peak near Sunrise. After a short time, I noticed that there was a steep chute going right down to the basin. If we got down there, I could get her some practice on skins right away, and then boot up Dege. I walked down a ways to see if it would go, and everything looked fine to me. It was steep, but it was a very warm weekend and I could tell it would hold an edge. There was a half inch of soft on top. Thinking back, I remember that Silas had said it had rained a few days ago, and that may have created the problem. I cautiously slid in and traversed across and made a few careful turns. Ava followed and when she came to the spot to make her first turn she balked. I told her to side slip back a ways and get just enough speed to easily initiate a turn. She wasn't scarred (just cautious) and she did just like I said - but she didn't make the first turn. She either sat back or had her edges slip out. Either way, the next thing I knew was she was falling and one ski was off. I had originally set myself up below her first turn, but I didn't adjust when she side slipped back. She screamed and fought hard to stop but didn't really have a chance. She bounced on by heading towards the right side of a group of trees near the bottom of the steepest part. I think she may have brushed against a small downward leaning tree that slowed her down some, and then she hit a good sized tree which knocked her other ski off, and stopped her five feet below in the dirt of it's melted out treewell. If she had missed all the trees, she would have bounced down a couple of heather patches, and slid down to the basin. I skied down to her in stunned shock and fatherly fear, and was so happy when she said she was OK. I had made so many judgement errors that led to her near miss...All told she probably fell about 60 feet. Surprisingly, I had to sidestep up to get her ski. I think her body must have jammed it in the snow (4 bruises). As I stepped up, I was proud to see that she had jammed the edge of the other ski in many, many times trying to stop and slowing her down. There was also a solid vertical line in the snow, perhaps from her forcing a ski pole in the snow. Her fight had kept her from picking up too much speed, and certainly helped her avoid serious injury.

Some things that I take out of this are:

-You don't stop easily on a steep, smooth backcountry slope. The bumps at a ski resort usually help stop you.
-I'm going to use an ice ax more often when I boot up steeps. (You pick up speed fast if anything happens)
-I'm going to be more cautious in the backcountry. It would have been very difficult to get Ava out of there if she had been hurt. (It was still hard!)
-I'm going to consider using a whippit for me and my family.
-Most of all, I will be more protective of those I am responsible for. I will attempt to avoid the bad judgement that people like me tend to have. Years of being in dangerous situations, can lead to discounting the danger.

We played in the sun on the gentle Muir Snowfield the next day.

i fell too, learning i wasn't an expert skier even if the black diamonds said otherwise.
learning is fun
b

Dang, I'm glad Ava was ok! Those suncups were quite hard Sat.. I stripped a ski on the first run too. Luckily I was able to stay on my other edge, before complete carnage ensued
On a more happier note; it was very nice to meet you and your lovely daughter at the white river campground.

i fell too, learning i wasn't an expert skier even if the black diamonds said otherwise.
learning is fun
b

Actually I've only met one expert skier in my life (Uno Gignoux). I was about 19 and a really good bump skier. I was on my favorite run at Squaw Valley (KT 22 of course) and there was a terrible breakable crust on top of the huge 40 degree bumps. NOBODY was skiing it. We had all made a bad mistake getting on it and were just trying to get off in one piece. Out of the muck came a bobbing skier approaching us in very good balance and without missing a beat. He blasted on by and I recognized my old coach who used to beat us by 10 seconds in a 30 second race (Uno Gignoux)

I've spent all my life "attempting" to become an "expert" skier. I'm still at it. So no, Ava's not really an expert to people who know better - but to most of the world - she is.

Dang, I'm glad Ava was ok! Those suncups were quite hard Sat.. I stripped a ski on the first run too. Luckily I was able to stay on my other edge, before complete carnage ensued
On a more happier note; it was very nice to meet you and your lovely daughter at the white river campground.

Good to meet you. I've had some close calls in my life but they were just me! It's different when it's your baby. We had a great day on Sunday. Hope to see you again.

Brian

Glad to hear she was OK - what a scary thing to watch.  

On your question (I think) about the whippet in real world conditions - I had the misfortune to use one a few years back.  I was skiing down a bowl with some great spring corn; high speed joy turns.  However as I dropped into the lower bowl, I hit a runnel of water ice and went down quickly.  I slammed my helmet on the snow, and slid backwards without skis.  When I finally realized what was going on, I was able to arrest with the whippet, stopping in about 10 or 20 feet and avoiding a very fast slide into rocks below.  I probably could have limited the slide a bit more if I'd remembered to use my feet a bit sooner.

It was my first trip with both the helmet and whippet (though I have climbed with an ice axe for years).  Now I won't go without either.  

I'd recommend the whippet as it weighs nothing and works when you need it to.  It did well on some pretty hard snow - and most of the time, that's when you're actually going to need it.

Bill G

Avajane

Thanks for the thoughtful post, my daughter is a solid skier, not as good as your daughter by the sounds of it, and I have taken her on tours in the great wide world, that have been well within her skiing skills, but because of the unfamiliar terrain she would become tentative, and not really ski as well as she might have, in a place she had skied before. These trips usually become part of the family chronicle under the heading; Another example of dad trying to kill me. It is a hard balance for me, I want her to enjoy the skiing I find so exciting, but not exceed her skill. I really should be more sensitive, because I am much the same, and become tentative on challenging ski routs myself!

I might add that I recently took by niece and nephew up on the Paradise Glacier.  They are both very strong ski-area skiers but have not been in the backcountry.  My niece was somewhat cautious and reluctant.  I was worried that she was not having a good time.  She now reflects back on that day as one of the best moments in her life.  I'm sure your daughter is secretly appreciating all these attempts on her life 

Bill G

These stories really resonate with me.

There have been several times when I've put my son into situations that in retrospect I shouldn't have.  He's forgiven me, but I haven't.

It's easy to forget how quickly skiing can turn into mountaineering in the backcountry.

If you're not used to mountaineering exposure, being a good skier doesn't count for much.

I'm eager to experience the mountains with my son as a buddy, but I have to remind myself that I need to think more like a guide.

I was a rock climber most of my life until I got too wrecked and too scarred. Then (as I always knew I would) I turned into a mountaineer! Mostly a ski mountaineer. As a technical rock climber who almost exclusively climbed on good granite, I always felt that mountaineering was actually much more dangerous. Other than getting my kids on toprope and climbing the REI pinnacle, I never really wanted them to become climbers. Skiers yes, but for me climbing was always too dangerous to steer my kids into. Ski mountaineering? I dunno. We're all doing it some, but the youngest is 19 and the oldest is 30, so they can decide how they want to play on their own. I don't think that I'm suggesting anything over 30 degrees anymore...I realized last weekend that I couldn't live with that. No value judgements here. I wouldn't put my own paranoia on anyone. Climbing has lots of good parts to it, and sharing it with another is a personal choice. Nice discussion guys.

ps I have told Ava that she had no reason for missing that turn! But deep down, I know the reason just like most of us do. When things tighten up - you gotta fight the urge to be tentative. Because like a Ranger once told me. "Help is a long time coming!"

I'm glad the end result was just some bruises and scratches, a fall with an uncontrolled slide isn't a trivial matter. I hope your daughter just sees this as part of the learning process & not too rattled by it. I'm sure the slope was deceptive and felt reasonable yet hard enough underneath to enable a fast, frightening ride. I can't say that a Whippet does a lot of good once a fallen skier has picked up momentum and body position isn't always well suited to establish a quality "arrest". Later season snow also firms up making a good arrest harder. Since a whippet is a tool, it's good to have some fundamental climbing knowledge and practice (self arrest techniques) to get the most out of it but a great piece of added assurance to have if you can reliably deploy it.

Having a son, Stewart( now 21) who has fully adopted the climbing and ski-mountaineering lifestyle has taught me a few things.
#1.. It's scary...I love that he likes to do what I like, but it scares me shitless especially now that he is doing it without me.
#2.. When I was his mentor, I was very conservative with him and as Lowell says....tried to have a "guide mentality" and kept" what will his mother say" in the back of my mind at all times.
#3: Now that he is branching out on his own I find that he needs constant reminders regarding risk analysis:  Youth are not prone to good risk analysis....bravado, peer pressure and a sense of immortality gets in the way and clouds their analysis.

Recently we were out on a tour and there was a nasty moat crossing, very easy but if you fell in ,you would die a long and miserable death. My partner and I decided to rope up and belay across the moat. Very simple, very quick. Stewart didn't want to and thought us overcautious and old farts. I took the opportunity the day after to discuss it with him and used Volken's very useful Risk versus Consequence graph to explain my thoughts on the matter.

It's a great thing watching them mature in the mountains.

Glad you daughter is OK....she was not the only one who fell that day...I know at least one more Dad ( not me) who witnessed his child take a bad fall and slide for life over rocks up at Sunrise. They are OK as well.

risk vs. consequences is a powerful good argument i have been using as of late but with the reward caveat used to break a tie.
b

Having a son, Stewart( now 21) who has fully adopted the climbing and ski-mountaineering lifestyle has taught me a few things.
#1.. It's scary...I love that he likes to do what I like, but it scares me shitless especially now that he is doing it without me.
#2.. When I was his mentor, I was very conservative with him and as Lowell says....tried to have a "guide mentality" and kept" what will his mother say" in the back of my mind at all times.
#3: Now that he is branching out on his own I find that he needs constant reminders regarding risk analysis:  Youth are not prone to good risk analysis....bravado, peer pressure and a sense of immortality gets in the way and clouds their analysis.

Recently we were out on a tour and there was a nasty moat crossing, very easy but if you fell in ,you would die a long and miserable death. My partner and I decided to rope up and belay across the moat. Very simple, very quick. Stewart didn't want to and thought us overcautious and old farts. I took the opportunity the day after to discuss it with him and used Volken's very useful Risk versus Consequence graph to explain my thoughts on the matter.

It's a great thing watching them mature in the mountains.

Glad you daughter is OK....she was not the only one who fell that day...I know at least one more Dad ( not me) who witnessed his child tlake a bad fall and slide for life over rocks up at Sunrise. They are OK as well.

At 15 I went rock climbing with a quadrupled clothsline and fiberglass nuts from a telephone pole and thought I was being safe. Now I'm the safety preacher 40 years later. What a ride! So glad to be here, I want to stay just a little bit longer. Glad the near miss's were no more than that.

Edit: coding - quote & response.

sorry about the feeling for the incident.

You are a good father.

If you think you made a mistake...then it is okay.

Royal Robbins I believe said something like this: "You gain experience through mistakes."

Peace.

Thanks for posting this and sharing your experience.

Reminds me of the story of my ex jumping in to Corbetts in 1991 only to slide the whole thing after her skis popped off. It really hits one deep and hard to see a loved one sliding out of control.

Reminds me of me sliding out of control on 4/15/07 at Alpy climbing over to Pineapple and sliding head first over the cliff at the top after making a bunch of little mistakes starting with turning my head to make sure my son was following. Ended up breaking my fibula.......then skiing out (that's a good story in and of itself).

For sure, if one spends time in steep terrain shit will happen, there will be slides with possible consequences. I am both a rock climber and ski mountaineer and have always felt like mountaineering is much more dangerous than rock. Now I did more sport climbing then Trad or Alpine, which is a big difference. Yet, the rock was solid and unless I made a mistake I feel like I can control the objective hazards.

Mountaineering is filled with potential "acts of God" (especially avys) that there is no way to control. The random fall through a snow bridge, the ice fall cleaving and so on are certainly almost impossible to predict, let alone a huge rock and water slide as the result of a built up water that is under the surface.

Risk recreation with children is an intense thing. Many of my lowland friends do not get climbing, let alone climbing with a child. Yet the shard experience is pretty darn special. My son have always been really close but after this past year of him skiing on the Freeride tour, we have become so much closer. Better yet, our relationship evolved in to something deeper...............we are now climbing partners and take responsibility for each other's life.

Like most parents, I had conflicted feelings about introducing my daughter to BC skiing and climbing. Eventually I did, mainly because she expressed an interest, but there's always the thought in the back of your mind: Could I live with myself if something bad happened?

We did crevasse rescue training and I taught her how to use an ice axe and did my best to teach her the skills she needed but eventually you have to climb/ski a steep slope and hope she can deal with it.  I always asked her if she was comfortable before we jumped in and sometimes she turned back.  Fortunately, the times she dove in she always nailed it.  In the end it was rewarding for me and her to see her gain the skills and confidence to get around in the BC.  Since she's been off to college she doesn't get into the BC much, mainly because she hasn't connected with a social group that does that sort of thing.  I'm glad for that given that I don't trust most college-age boys to have the right level of caution.

Speaking of college-age boys, however, I must clarify that some of them do have excellent judgment.  In particular, my 23 year old nephew, who had been one of my favorite climbing/skiing partners over the years, had demonstrated a high level of wisdom and caution on our trips and even managed to avoid major issues when out with his buddies. 

I think the best we can do is try to be good role models, explain why we make the decisions we do, and hope for the best.  In the end, some of our kids will be drawn to the mountains and we want them to benefit from our experience and expertise and be glad for the opportunity to share some good times in the mountains.

I'm glad I found this topic. With kids ages 3, 5, 8, and 10 I look forward to every moment in the mountains with them. We have mostly spent our time backpacking and hiking in the summer (summiting small peaks like Mt. Angeles and Ellinor) and have done some small traverses in the high country. Then we ski at the resort in the winter. For the first time I took them out to the exit 38 crag... I hired a guide (Forest McBrian... with whom I've done a lot of skiing/mountaineering) so that I could be sure I was doing the best I could in setting out on this path. The kids LOVED the climbing. We have bonded in deep ways every time we have been hiking, backpacking, or skiing. Being busy with work and now that they are getting to be very busy with school and extra curricular activities, these events are really the only moments I get to spend with them that are deep and extended... where we can relax and be ourselves and build on our love for each other and for the earth.

Luckily I haven't been in any really scary situations yet (except for my 5 year old son having no concept of consequences and flying on his skis into the terrain park without any warning--flew off a jump, knocked the wind out of him, but he was okay).

I admire the skills guides have and that is the skill set I want to acquire in guiding my children. I'll actually be guiding my wife on Mt. Baker this weekend. Stories of people sliding on hard summer snow are penetrating deep into my consciousness now. It is good to hear of others' experiences in order to be even more alert and conscious of danger.

I love the mountains. They provide such a contrast of life and death all at once. But I'm with all of you... I want to stick around for a long, long time... especially with my loved ones... in the mountains.

Thanks for starting this discussion and contributing to my consciousness as I begin to introduce my little ones into the big world of mountains.

- thanks for sharing that real mishap. I had a rock come towards me in 2007. It' pretty scary how quickly things can change, on an otherwise normal day on the mtn. peace

In regard to Whippet technique.... There was an extended discussion on the use of Whippets on Tellemark Tips before it went belly up.  The discussion went on for months and finally involved the inventor himself.  The upshot was that Whippets are not ice axes!  They are best used by immediately plunging the picks into the snow with both your hands still on the ski pole grips (the traditional ice ax grip, with one hand on the ax head and one hand on the end of the handle, places too much strain on the ski pole and exceeds their design limits).   This means you are counting on stopping your slide asap.  The discussion on Tellemark Tips was full of people who attempted to use Whippets for a traditional Self Arrest with poor results. 

What I got out of the discussion is that Whippets are marginal for stopping a fall once you build up speed.  I used to carry one whippet on steep slopes, planning to use the self arrest technique I learned with an Ice Ax.   After that web page discussion I went out and bought a second Whippet to increase my quick plunge stopping ability.  In this context Whippets can be effective.  In serious exposure I usually carry and use a full on Ice Ax.