Backcountry touring set-up?

This is what I have narrowed it down to... <br>Skis<br>Alpina Crossterrain, Atomic Rt 10 Rainier or Fischer Outabounds<br>Boots<br>Black Diamond T4, Black Diamond T3 or Garmont Excursion<br>Bindings<br>Voile 3 pins<br>I'm coming from an alpine skiing background and my ski quiver is all alpine or AT stuff. So this will be my first experience with Telle gear. <br>I'm just wondering what your opnions are on any of these skis. Are the boots overkill for the skis, should I go with a leather boot? I don't really intend on doing many turns with this stuff. And what other bindings would you recomend if staying with the three pin set-up.

Get the Voile 3pin Cables or 3pin hardwires. Take the cables off for up, put them back on for down.<br><br>I learned to ski on T3s and Karhu 10th Mtn Tours. Based on that setup, your proposed gear will work just fine. I'd get the widest of the Fischers (is the Outta the widest? I always get them confused), they should match the light plastic boots perfectly. <br><br>The T4 weighs more than the thermo T3. <br><br>IMHO light AT gear tours better. YMMV.

Wow - you want a light nordic touring setup, Aaron!?<br><br>If you're not planning on making turns consider the bar-style BC bindings like NNN-BC or SNS-BC, then look for the beefiest boot you can get that will work with these bindings. The discontinued Solly Raid was the boot of choice before it was discontinued; rumors are that solly will introduce another beefy SNS-BC boot next season. <br><br>Using the bar-style bindings you should probably not consider a ski more substantial then a Fisher Rebound -- though those who place more of an emphasis on turns do.<br><br>My light nordic touring setup is Fisher Outbounds, SNS-BC bindings and Raid boots. They work good for tours like Trillium lake, that stuff near Pioneer Women grave, to my neighborhood Starbucks when it snows in Portland (ala New Years 2004), Teacup lake, etc. <br><br>They haven't been used at all this year (shocking huh?).

I ski on this kind of setup a lot. I'm assuming that you are talking about waxless (fishscale) skis. For bindings, I agree with Paul - get 3pins with removable cables. Much nicer striding without the cables, but if your trip will have a long/steeper run, then carry them and install for the run. They add a lot of control, even with really lightweight leather/fabric boots.<br><br>For skis, I have the Fischer Outtabounds. I personally wouldn't go to the fattest ski, because I have found that when the snow conditions are prime for this kind of touring you don't need/want that width. I still occasionally use my old Karhu XCD-GTs, 62mm tip, when conditions are right. Russ just got some Karhu Dorados, which are of similar dimensions as the Outtabounds, and they seem nice. The Fischers have a fundamentally different approach to making fishscales. Instead of a formed fishscale pattern which has raised elements (Karhu), the Fischers look like they simply have the pattern milled into the base of the non-fishscale version. In my experience, this makes the Fischers glide a little better and climb a little less well, but the difference is not great and really only noticable under certain conditions (ie just barely softened spring snow). I don't know about the Alpinas or Atomics. Keep in mind that if you plan on skiing up anything moderate or more in good (cold) winter snow, you will probably need to use skins. Also, there are some ascending tricks that you will pick up using the waxless skis (without skins) that you probably never had to learn with wall-to-wall skins on fat skis.<br><br>For boots, I use T3s (original version, equal to current T4s?) when the trip will have substantial steeper runs, or some really lightweight (read wimpy) leather/fabric Trek Express boots. Waxless partner Matt just got some 3pin Garmont Venture leather boots, which seem good. He had been skiing on his Karhu 10th Mountain Tours with T2s, but found that with them it was difficult to ski with the "finesse" which is often necessary on the waxless skis under many conditions. I have, however, used my T3s on those 62mm XCD-GT skis and had very nice trips (perfect conditions).<br><br>If you really won't ever be using the setup for significant turns, then I would say go with non-plastic boots. They are very comfortable and a joy to hike in. But, given your background, I would guess that when you experience the "flow" of waxless skiing (no skins on/skins off cycles) you may start wanting to do tours-with-turns, for which this kind of setup is so good.<br><br>Here are some examples of nice tours-with-turns I've had (varied combinations of T3s or leather/fabric boots and ~90mm tip or ~60mm tip skis):<br><br> Flett and Russell Glaciers, Mount Rainier <br> Mt. Daniel <br> Sunrise-3rd Burroughs, Mount Rainier <br> Flett Glacier, Mount Rainier <br> Mount Adams, north side <br> Goat Rocks <br> Grand Park-3rd Burroughs, Mount Rainier

I also use this type of outfit a lot. If Excursions with thermo liners fit your feet that would be a good call. I think simple 3 pins would be plenty. I have Excursions (and like them) but mostly use Salomon BC boots and bindings, due to their good touring and hiking capabilities. Salomon has made that a harder choice by not making top of the line boots this year (I think they've dropped the ball next year as well, despite earlier promises). Fischer makes a fairly good SNS BC boot called the BCX 6 available from Pine Mtn Sports in Bend (and possibly elsewhere as well). There are several good skis - Outtabounds, Karhu Pyxis or Dorados, Alpinas, Atomic Rainiers. My favorites are Madshus Glittertinds, available in a limited run of sizes from Marmot in Bellevue. My experience is that the Madshus or Karhu bases have superior glide in cold snow to the other choices and are about the same for grip in warm snow. This makes them good for a wider range of conditions. It is reasonable to kick wax them for cold snow ahead and behind of the pattern and then use them in the common situation where there is sunheated snow on southern exposures and cold powder on northern exposures. In any case you should get skins to go with the waxless skis. This type of outfit should be very good for a huge range of spring tours in normal NW or Sierra conditions.

I kinda started going in this direction this year as well.<br><br>Skis I found at the thrift store. They are double camber omnitrak Karhus ~60-52-? edgeless. Then I tried on boots. A lot of boots until I found something that fit well and had a good flex-Alpina BC-Tour (Marmot clearance rack). Rottefella Magnum BC bindings are (or were) $50 at REI online.<br><br>The skis' best showing to date was on the Chiwaukum Creek trail. This was low angle hard snow climbing (not enough of it to be sure). <br><br>My wife skis Alpinas. Edgeless as well. They really climb well. Especially in softer snow.<br><br>

Sorry. I took my dividend to rei.com to purchase another pair of Rottefella BC Magnums and they are not there.

Charles-Very great info on the skis and applications.<br>I am also looking into this setup again. For years I tromped around in the backcountry on Alpine gear (early 70's). Then Karhu came out with the XCD ski (Late 70's) and I bought a pair of 215cm skis w/Montanyl skins and some Snowfields. I saved the skins-should have saved the skis, but I bought another pair of XCD-Gt's. Back then these were the state of the art Telemark ski and Touring ski. <br>The newer skis like the Outabounds and Dorados look great, but will my skins stick to the raised pattern of the scales? I am thinking about some boots like the t-3 to power these skis. I would think that the shape of the newers skis would help turn the ski better than the XCD GT's, but I can recognize that it would cause resistance in glide on flats. Some of that would depend on the flex are the newer skis double camber for better kick? This question I have to ask-Do you have a climbing bar on the heel of the binding in case of vertical? What would you recommend for ski length-I am 6'4" about 185lbs. <br>sb mentioned kick wax, but I would love to stay away from that mess if I have to since that really can be difficult to manage.<br>Thanks again for the insights!<br>Joe<br>

Joe, I don't have any problem with the skins not sticking to the pattern. This was true for my previous "wide" fishscales, Karhu Catamounts, and my current Outtabounds. I re-glued the Col-tex skins that I got with my XCD-GTs, so there is quite a bit of ski that is not skinned, but when conditions are good for waxless skiing I don't really have any problem with climbing despite the narrow skins.<br><br>I believe that the old XCD-GT era skis had true double camber, which made them travel fast but not always too much fun to turn. The newer "wide" waxless skis are said to have camber-and-a-half, so they do turn better in more snow conditions, with the trade off of less good glide.<br><br>Climbing bar: I've had mine on and off of my waxless skis. I've found that when conditions are good for waxless skiing, they are mostly a pain because ice often builds up within the lowered bail. So I mostly ski without them, but put them back on once in a while for specific trips where there will be sustained steeper climbing.<br><br>Ski length: I would guess that you would want the longest ski available in a given model, but I'm really not an expert on this. Maybe someone else could suggest?<br>

You definitely don't want the longest ski available in a given model unless you're big (like 200 + lbs). If you get too long a ski with Nordic camber or even camber and a half you won't be able to use the waxless base to advantage and you'll also get poor to terrible downhill performance. It's important to get the right flex for your weight.

Thanks for the input SB and Charles This helps me in the decision process. I am going to check into this phenomenon. Since I have long legs I tend to get over the ski easily- especially with a pack. This is good for tele turns, but can take the glide out of the slide. <br>Thanks Boys-Any more input is welcome!<br>Joe