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Topic: Climbing Coleman Deming Un-roped (Read 3119 times)
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Rusty Knees
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I see a lot of people climbing this route un- roped. I know it's marginally safer on skies , but what about for companions who may be just booting up?
Every once in awhile, I read about folks falling through a snow bridge. Advice? Thoughts?
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The best part of summer skiing is napping on a warm rock.
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E_N
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I don't know that I would be excited to boot the route unroped, but it really depends on the time and conditions.
I'll generally prefer to take off the rope if on foot on the Roman wall based on the hazard potential between crevasse fall (pretty small the last three years) and the potential to arrest a fall. Running protection might be something to consider depending on conditions if there is considerable danger from either of those hazards.
I advise not paying too much attention to what everybody else is doing if your judgement is telling you to rope up.
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Bill G
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I totally agree about the headwall and once you're on the ridge between the C and D. Howqever, the Coleman has some very large cravasses depending on how far you stray to the left. There are some really impressive maws as you wander over towards the North Ridge area. For the standard route up the Coleman I'd still recommend roped travel for boot packing. I've even seen people in cracks as low as the pitch above the Heliotrope ridge campsites.
But, as E_N says, these are personal decisions.
Bill G
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ebeam
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Yeah, this subject is personal.
It got too personal when I lost a friend (Kevin) on Baker’s CD route in April of 2008. Though not exactly what Rusty Knees specifically asked about in this thread (unroped and booting), Kevin was solo skiing (obviously not roped) and he likely fell into a crevasse rather than was lost by other causes such as avalanche burial. This accident caused me to join the other volunteers with mountain rescue and made me more cautious.
Now I always have glacier gear and a partner. Without these I won’t go on the CD route (and almost any other glacier ice). I make it my practice to wear my harness before accessing the glacier and if we are only a party of two – we both carry rando ropes. Whether we rope up depends on the specific conditions which are influenced by season, time of day, aspect, terrain, and your travel pattern verses the orientation of crevasses (i.e., traversing, crossing) if predictable. Most of this is in Lowell’s short piece on skiing roped http://www.alpenglow.org/skiing/high-route-tips/part6-glaciers.html which is worth reading and not repeated by me.
Another reason I am more cautious has stemmed from a more careful viewing what Baker’s CD route looks like over early and late season, and over low and high snow pack years. As said earlier, there are some huge crevasses along the route, especially climber’s left. But there are crevasses throughout the route starting with first pitch up from the hogsback to some real gapers along the summit ice cap – all areas of accidents. See the picture below from early October 2009. It show some of the CD route but also shows several of the high points along Heliotrope Ridge, a popular early season ski area that many people assume is safe and don’t carry any glacier gear.
Also, it is erroneous to think skiers are always climbing (even the CD route) completely on skis (and thus safer). There can be short or long booting sections when climbing or even descending, depending on conditions and your exact route. Descending skiers and boarders are forced to make transitions (skins or booting) on descents that involve flats or traverse areas. Because of these areas are often short and you are on the descent, it can be easy to compromise on safety. On the south side of Baker, I had a friend on a snowboard punch through a snow bridge up to his chest while carrying his splitboard on such a descent while the skiers skated through without a hitch. It was in an area where we were all roped and on skins when climbing earlier the same day. We probably can all share these types of experiences.
Also, hazards exist below any glacier travel on the CD route. One specific hazard is a moat located just west of the summer trail along the hogsback (moraine). While moats are a common hazard in any mountainous terrain with a deep snow pack, what makes this moat so hazardous includes four somewhat unique factors:
1. The moat site is near a busy route.
2. People using the route are not on the glacier so they are not necessarily thinking of falling through a snow bridge. Also, many non-climbers use the area and are not even aware of hazards such as moats.
3. The terrain naturally funnels you to the moat site when there is enough snow depth (late winter through early summer); this is especially true for people without skis/boards that are butt glissading.
4. The moat site is a > 50ft waterfall so drowning and quick hypothermia are added risks to those that take a fall.
I had a scare with this moat many years ago one spring day before I knew the specific terrain. The day was cloudy with people and tracks everywhere. After climbing above the hogsback a few hundred feet we broke through the clouds and were treated to 360 degree views on the ridge’s highpoint. After a bit, we descended into the clouds (fog) following our tracks and letting the terrain dictate the path of least resistance knowing that it led to the trail at treeline. I skied down to a roll over and barely noticed a manhole sized opening in the snow. It was the moat just starting to show itself. No crack had developed – just a round hole. My wife and daughter were following without skis but were butt glissading and not able to see very well downhill because of their low position. I intercepted them before the moat, but it was close. It scared me because they wouldn’t have discovered the hazard until it was too late without my help.
Last year, at least two people fell in the moat on separate accidents. One did not survive. This moat has claimed more than one life. I don’t know the exact count. The Baker climbing rangers blogged about the hazard here: http://mtbakerclimbing.blogspot.com/2011/07/hogsback-moat.html. I have added a couple of pictures below showing the site without snow.
I make mention of losing Kevin and the moat accidents from last year because they are real. I don’t want to lose other friends, have an accident myself, or put my friends or family through what I went through looking for Kevin or what we see when doing body recovery on mountain rescue. The risks can be mitigated through safe travel practices and not just following what the crowd is doing.
Early season crevasses along the CD route and Heliotrope area.
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ebeam
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Heliotrope moat site without snow from climbers trail along hogsback
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Lowell_Skoog
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Great information about the moats below Heliotrope Ridge. I bet more accidents have taken place there than any other part of the mountain. There are several parallel gullies west of the Hogsback, and I think they each develop a moat at some point during the summer.
I was involved in a rescue at one of those moats during an early climb of Mt Baker, many years ago. A member of another party was glissading and he went into the moat. Fortunately he was wearing a harness. His partners lowered him a rope and he was able to clip into it before going hypothermic. He was wedged way down in the moat with ice-cold water running over him. His partners winched him out and we transported him down to Kulshan Cabin. A helicopter took him to a hospital where he recovered.
Claustrophobia and hypothermia scare me as much as anything and I've been spooked by those moats ever since.
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andyski
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Ebeam: that's truly an excellent post. Thank you. As someone who is often tempted to push the envelope on terrain like the C-D, your clear-eyed, detailed post is the kind of thing that keeps my ambition smartly in check. Thanks again.
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jwplotz
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Moats are definitely an underappreciated hazard. The transition from snow to rock getting to the Stuart North Ridge notch is gripping.
What does this Hogsback moraine moat look like late Spring?
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Jonathan_S.
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Thanks everyone for the highly informative and helpful exchange of ideas.
The "moat" discussion is especially interesting to me because although I've been to Baker only on the Easton & Squak for Grant & Sherman (respectively), that "moat" looks very similar (both visually and in terms of mechanics) to the "crevasses" in Mt Washington's Tuckerman Ravine back East.
We all know they're not really crevasses (since the last glaciers here melted out a few thousand years ago), but "glide crack" doesn't quite seem apt either, especially since they represent a far different hazard that glide avalanches. And they're also far larger than the summer glide cracks I've seen on Muir. So "moat" seems a more apt term.
Fortunately the . . . moats, holes, cracks, crevasses, whatever they are . . . appear with such regularity, and fortunately the ravine is so carefully scrutinized, that of what I think are the only four people to go into any of them the past couple decades, three people were glissading having absolutely no idea what they were doing, and the most recent fatality was even worse.
Also, IIRC, don't some of the kind of "ancillary" routes dropping west from Pan Point develop moats?
I think that is where the 1999 snowboarder was found (in 2001):
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Snowboarder-s-remains-found-two-years-after-he-1060360.php
More details here (though interspersed in a much longer article):
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/Mike-vs--the-Volcano.html
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My various "Tech" bindings are powered by Gu.
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Jonas
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Great info in this thread, thanks everyone.
Curious to hear some TAY opinions on descent safety. I'm planning to head up there next weekend, trying to figure out whether we'll be able to ski the whole descent or need to rope up and boot parts of it. Anybody have advice for this time of year, or beta on current conditions?
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ebeam
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What does this Hogsback moraine moat look like late Spring?
Others may have a better picture, but here is one from May 13, 2006. The moat area is in the gully on the right, in a line between the rock showing and the bottom of her backpack. It is very mellow terrain when filled with snow.
Mapwise, it is located here: http://www.hillmap.com/m/ag1zfmhpbGxtYXAtaGRychALEghTYXZlZE1hcBilrSUM. You can see the hogsback trail in the satellite image located about 50 meters to the east. Also, you can see the moat potential (numerous short cliffs with mostly meadow) in the vicinity that Lowell was talking about.
My point isn’t to make the CD route sound exceedingly dangerous or like it is some epic climb. It isn’t. But neither is it some little side country jaunt. Other than offering some specifics about the glaciers and drawing specific attention to moat hazards, my point is to: 1) make thinking about safety second nature (e.g., constantly read the terrain/conditions, be thinking of your options/exits, etc.), 2) have the right equipment, and 3) know how to use it.
To emphasize this last point I offer these last two pictures from a trip in Sept 2008 (photos courtesy of Tim Terpstra). Before we all get too critical of this father/son team, think about all the stupid things we have done … probably knowing better too. And, in case you are wondering - they turned around on the lower part of the Roman Wall and made it out safely. I think quite a few people kindly (and not so kindly) encouraged that course of action.
Safe travels to everyone.
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ebeam
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Father/son team just above Pumice Ridge (Sept 2008) photos by Tim Terpstra
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Splitter
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Wow-
I am impressed as much as I am appalled.
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snoholic
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Thanks for the great posts. I was not aware of the moats in the area. (They have been filled in when I've been there). It's good to confirm that the voice in my head that has told me to stick close to the hogsback was giving me some good info.
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jwplotz
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Posts: 323
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At least they're roped up. 
Horrifying.
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Lowell_Skoog
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I find the pictures of the father-son team less horrifying and more fascinating. There's a story here I'd like to know more about. Who were they? Where did they come from?
The clothes look like they were made, at least in part, from old blankets and maybe the upholstery from an old sofa (see father's pants and son's hoodie). What kind of shoes are those? Are those really crampons?
Assuming that the photos weren't staged, they scream poverty. It says something about those two that they should try to climb Mount Baker, as poor and ill-equipped as they appear to be. It's like they stepped out of another time.
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jwplotz
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It is touching in a certain sense, but the kid's body language is telling me he's pretty terrified, kind of how my body must have looked climbing yesterday.
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« Last Edit: 06/04/12, 10:38 PM by jwplotz »
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Bruce A
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I find the pictures of the father-son team less horrifying and more fascinating.
I agree. They're having an adventure, and are probably better equipped than the first ascent party.
In the scheme of things, on my various slogs up Baker I recall seeing lots of people up there on foot, unroped, without packs, and carrying ski poles only. Ill advised or not, the vast majority seem to have survived
With respect to crevasse hazard, I think September is arguably the safest month of
the year for foot travel because so little is hidden.
The clothing looks like hunter's camo to me.
The Levis and apparent lack of packs are not choices I'd make or advocate, but as I insist on the right to make my choices I am bound to respect the right of others to do the same.
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joseph.szasz
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Those two are heros. Telling and re-telling the story to thier families. Worries aboout lack of gear read Brian Harder's ski mountaineering website. The future is more with less. To bad so many climbers/skiers tout freedom of the hills then mock those who are free of mental constrictions mad up it climbing and skiing magazines!
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aaron_wright
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The clothing looks like hunter's camo to me.
The Levis and apparent lack of packs are not choices I'd make or advocate, but as I insist on the right to make my choices I am bound to respect the right of others to do the same.
Yeah it appears to be woodland and mossy oak camo. At least they had some sort of crampons and what appear to be ice axes. I won't judge, I've done lots of stupid things, some more than that.
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jwplotz
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Would you take your son/daughter base jumping on a whim?
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rippy
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Without knowing particulars, the trailing climber has cramp-ons and an axe. Solid posture too unless purely by accident. They were certainly the most U-V protected party in the Cascades. Blind determination or wanting the experience, have to wonder but there's a story for them to tell. Another illustration of going "minimalist" and fancy gear be damned. Maybe their hunting scouting trip got a bit out of hand?
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ebeam
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A few more thoughts reflecting on the comments:
“Ill advised or not, the vast majority seem to have survived.”
True, but just surviving the odds without knowing the risks is a negative feedback. For example, most of the time snow in avalanche terrain is not avalanching so a person without any knowledge of avalanches gets a false sense of safety just by going through avalanche terrain without any negative consequence. Fortunately we can learn from our own personal experiences, and – better yet – learn from others’ knowledge and experiences.
“… as I insist on the right to make my choices I am bound to respect the right of others to do the same”
Absolutely! But, circumstances don’t always make such personal freedoms that simple, even on mountains. As much as I can appreciate the father/son team attempting the climb and having an adventure, they were a risk to others climbing behind them on the Roman Wall at least where I doubt they could have arrested.
Also, I think any person should be aware of, and not take risks with, those trusting their actions/leadership. I can excuse someone of this error if they don’t know or understand the hazards/risks, but any excuse for sincerely not knowing doesn’t offset natural consequences (i.e., if the father/son team fell and couldn’t arrest – gravity would still work). It is difficult to extend such personal freedom to people (or myself) if they (or I) knowingly put someone at risk when they putting their trust in you. I probably have this view because I am a dad and my kids would blindly trust (at least when they were younger). The thought about balancing personal freedom with responsibility never really hit home as much until fatherhood.
“There's a story here …”
What I remember from talking to the father/son team the night before was they were from a town just north of the border where they could see the mountain from their house (or nearby). They were very nice and totally stoked to climb early the next morning. We got a leisurely start in the morning so we didn’t encounter them again until where the picture was taken. I remember them being scared.
We will probably never know the full story. Several of us have offered our own takes which makes for good discussion. Different interpretation is one of the beautiful things about a good picture. I added this photo to the thread not for judgment of the individuals - just as fodder for discussion.
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aaron_wright
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Would you take your son/daughter base jumping on a whim?
No. I wouldn't do what's depicted in the picture with my daughters either. They survived it seems, have you ever made bad decisions and survived?
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