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Turns All Year Trip Reports
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(3) Trip Report monthly boards: only actual trip report starts a new thread.
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Topic: BC 10 Skiing across my stupid line (Read 5872 times)
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freeskiguy
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I recently viewed a you tube video. A caption flashed across the screen that read something to the effect; “EXTREME AVALANCHE DANGER …….SOLUTION,SKI THE TREES”. The video then shows the usual skiers shredding great powder through some trees.
Now, as most experienced ski mountaineers are aware, even tree skiing terrain can produce deadly avalanches. Treed terrain requires the same stability assessment that open terrain requires. In trees, even small slides can push a skier into an unmovable object (a tree) with a high probably for trauma.
In early February,(2012) our current PWL was responsible for a number of skier triggered avalanches here in the East side of the North Cascades, both to recreational skiers and guided heli-ski groups.
Two recreational skiers triggered small avalanches in separate incidents on Feb, 18th. Both slides occurred in recent wind slab, on NE aspects with one foot crowns. In one incident the skier was caught in the slide while skining up and the slide stopped in a terrain bench above steep trees. Burial is unknown. In the other slide, the skier triggered the slide while skiing a wind loaded roll, he skied off the slab and the slide stopped in a large pile on a bench before steep terrain. Elevations are unknown.
There is also this report from FOAC: (name removed by me) 2012-02-20 Silver Star mountain In multiple snow profiles today we found Surface hoar up to size 30. In places the snow above was only 30cm of Fist snow and not cohesive enough for a slab. In areas where there was a slab we were finding very touchy conditions with multiple slabs both natural and human triggered up to size 2, with SH being the failure layer from 30-45 cm deep. Heads up - Its scary out there right now!
Another incident of heli-ski, human triggered slide(Feb, 22 or 23? ) was reported to have occurred on a 30 degree roll, in treed terrain, that ran through 25 degree terrain. This avalanche had a 300 foot long, 3 foot deep crown.
Another incident of the heli-guided groups reported a triggered slide in 24 degree terrain (see Feb. 27, trip report on TAY, lift assist).
More information here and facts would help with all skier safety in our area.
We were lucky again, here in the East side, North Cascades, because as far as I know, no one was injured in any of these slides.
I pulled this quote from a recent NWAC report. “Remember that choice not chance produces most avalanche accidents, and it is way past time to make better choices in the back country”.
This goes for me also. On Febuary 26th , I chose to ski some steep North aspect treed terrain (up wards of 40 degrees in places). I knew from past experience (over 200 descents of the upper mountain in this 3,900 vertical foot line) that the terrain is prone to surface hoar formation. We were hoping that the PWL was buried deep enough (42’’) that the snow pack would not be reactive. The lure of deep, cold, steep powder is powerful. I also wanted to check out how this now PWL layer would react to the recent loading and the energy transfer that I bring to the snow pack. Our management plan was to turn around if the layer was reactive.
The snow pack was reactive when the three of us were grouped together in a safe zone, producing a whump and a crack. we were still in low angle treed terrain, and I was pushing to continue. After another 100 vert. feet, we regrouped before the steeper terrain ahead.
As I skinned out from behind a large, protection tree, in 25 degree terrain at 6,100 feet elevation (with way steeper terrain above), we experienced a low earthquake like rumble that lasted for about 5 seconds. In the middle of that rumble, I heard an animal like ‘’growl” coming from the snow pack. You don’t get a better warning than that, so we turned around. I could have just as easily triggered an avalanche with out the 2nd warning and not be here to tell the story.
So why would an experienced BC skier push beyond the stupid line into a known instability? I think it is because we believe that we can manage a snow pack that is in reality, hard to manage or unmanageable. This is why I skied, and why I believe(just my opinion) the heliboys were out skiing in a known instability in a reactive PWL cycle. Experience is not always our friend.
One advantage that a group skinning up a mountain has over a group landing at the top is that, the skinning group can continually monitor the pack on the way up and turn around if need be. This is a hard decision with cold, deep and steep snow calling you from above. Your mind says that everything will be fine, just like it has always been in the past.
A group landing at the top, with no up hill capability, has little choice but to continue the decent and hope all the snow below is stable or that unstable snow can be mitigated (ski cuts to produce a slide). The problem with a PWL is that the trigger points are not always obvious and ski cuts may not produce a slide. An avalanche can be triggered by any skier in the chain, first or last or on the next run or days latter.
So the next time you see a video that says, “EXTREME AVALANCHE DANGER .. SOLUTION, SKI THE TREES,” you had better add the words,’EXTREME HYPE’ to that. Corrections or comments welcome.
Edit To correct as per Daves post below
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 the_stupid_line_1.jpg (226.09 KB, 708x496 - viewed 2010 times.)
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« Last Edit: 04/03/12, 05:35 PM by freeskiguy »
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Scotsman
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I love your stuff and am a fan and think you post great advice and show much experience and wisdom.
However, you seem to also have an agenda with regards the heli-skiing outfit up there and push it hard in your rhetoric.
Probably just me...but it diminished the really good stuff you write .
My 2 cents/
Anyway..thanks freeskiguy, good reminder.
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
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fredrogers
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 The line between your reality and fact appears to be blurred again.
The video was not made by the "unnamed" heli ski operator, but by a guest who was unable to correctly asses perceived vs. actual risk. And for the record: it was last season.
As for the Bride- you are posting claims based on hearsay versus what you actually saw. You say so yourself. Rather than post a bunch of conjecture on this site, why don't you stop by or give us a call (509.996.3272) if you have ay questions about anything.
Oh yeah, that would take far more courage than some random internet spray.
Thanks- Dave Betts, NCH.
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« Last Edit: 03/14/12, 07:19 AM by fredrogers »
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freeskiguy
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Thanks, Dave for the correction. I changed my post to reflect this. Do I have the facts on the Heli-slides correct? Could you give us more information on these, for example, where they guide midigated slides as a result of ski cuts or were they human triggered while lines were being skied?If human triggered, Can I get a copy of the incident reports or are they posted at NWAC? How about that incident in "the bride" can you give us more information on that?
Last year, was there really a close encounter between a BC skier and the helicopter, if so, where can I find that report?
Are you saying that there were no trees cut this year on the Bride ridge for a helicopter landing? Thanks again
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« Last Edit: 03/14/12, 05:26 PM by freeskiguy »
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fredrogers
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Thanks, Dave for the correction. I changed my post to reflect this. Do I have the facts on the Heli-slides correct? Could you give us more information on these, for example, where they guide midigated slides as a result of ski cuts or were they human triggered while lines were being skied?If human triggered, Can I get a copy of the incident reports or are they posted at NWAC? How about that incident in "the bride" can you give us more information on that?
Last year, was there really a close encounter between a BC skier and the helicopter, if so, where can I find that report?
Are you saying that there were no trees cut this year on the Bride ridge for a helicopter landing? Thanks again
Chris- Appreciate the change. Better to have your facts straight then post. Hopefully this discourse will lead to that.
Both Larry and Jeff typically post what we feel comfortable sharing to NWAC. We are always happy to discuss what we are seeing in the snowpack phone, but for liability reasons do not share our operational minutes, detailed snow reports nor incident reports.
I am not aware of any close call incident between a BC skier and the heli last year.
We do not heli-ski the Bride, so no reason to set up an LZ there.
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freeskiguy
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Chris- Appreciate the change. Better to have your facts straight then post. Hopefully this discourse will lead to that.
Both Larry and Jeff typically post what we feel comfortable sharing to NWAC. We are always happy to discuss what we are seeing in the snowpack phone, but for liability reasons do not share our operational minutes, detailed snow reports nor incident reports.
I am not aware of any close call incident between a BC skier and the heli last year.
We do not heli-ski the Bride, so no reason to set up an LZ there.
Here is what the Forest Service EA, April 2002 has to say about this issue of information sharing. The EA governs the permit for this private company operating on public land.
{From Forest Service EA April 2002, which governs this permit} “The generally positive relationship between the company and the backcountry skiers and snowboarders would likely continue with this alternative. Information about snow conditions and avalanche potential would be shared between the groups, continuing to contribute to the safety of all skiers. A helicopter would be available to help in search and rescue operations.” *
*By the way, for those who do not know, this company has evacuated two BC skiers from the mountains with ACL tears. One was on an organized educational trip. The other was ski touring Fresco Mountain, skied some difficult wind hammered snow at the top and fell. This company also provides some data to NWAC and all skiers are safer for that, but we can do more. Both of these evacs happened when Randy was part owner.
. Reports on skier triggered avalanches defines “information about snow conditions and avalanche potential”. You can punch and whack your extended columns all you want and say be careful out there, but skier triggered avalanches are the proof, and offer correlation (related variables) to the whacks and punches. Same day delivery please, on these reports, will do the most good safety wise. I would also encourage BC skiers to submit avalanche incident reports to NWAC. Our area is growing in BC skier numbers and the word of mouth approach in disseminating information is outdated.
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« Last Edit: 03/18/12, 06:04 PM by freeskiguy »
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freeskiguy
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I just checked the NWAC site, is anyone going to provide information about Saturdays avalanche incident in the cauche. It sounds like everyone was OK but I don't have the details.
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freeskiguy
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On Monday, March 19th,2012 I solo toured into the same 3,900 foot, North aspect area that is in my story above(BC 10).
An avalanche is reported to have occurred there on Saturday March 17th. So I went up to take a look.
I started seeing piles of debris at around 6,000 or 6,100 feet elevation. As I climbed up towards the start zone, I noticed that that this avalanche had piled debris across the ski track at five crossings in the avalanche fall line before the skin track entered a different fall line. The crown of this slide was observed to be at around 6,500 feet on a convex roll estimated to be around 30 + degrees. The flank walls measured 32’’ to the bed surface, which was 1’’ hard crust with rotten snow air space of one to two inches ( collapsed hoar layer) and a one finger hard slab at hoar interface, with a varying density hardness up to the recent snow loading. The hoar layers at the crown appeared to be deeper and more undercut and jagged. .
The group skied down the ridge from the top point at 6,986 in elevation and dropped the right hand side ski lines (Right of gully and right of gully rock at lee notch in ridge). It appears that they re-grouped on a low angle bench. Looking at the tracks, the slide occurred as the rider dropped directly off this bench and onto a convex roll. I saw two sets of tracks entering the U shaped crown area and one set going directly skiers left around the roll (may have stressed side anchor), indication that the first person did not trigger this PWL(hearsay accounts say that the third person triggered the avy)
This most recent avalanche on Saturday, March 17th, is skiers right of the avalanche in the above story that occurred on February 29th and the new slide ran into the protection tree where I heard the ‘’growl” in the above story which is at approximately 6,100 feet . Most of the deposition zones were four feet deep and 20 t0 30 feet wide and approx one hundred lineal feet long with piles around trees throughout the path.
The warnings went out for this specific area about a known, reactive PWL, and a known previous avalanche almost in the exact location. This new avalanche on Saturday had the potential for serious injury as it traveled down through and piling debris chunks on tress of all sizes.
It is important to understand just how hard these kinds of weak layers are to manage if you decide to venture forth into avalanche terrain with a known reactive PWL, especially with large groups and recent snow loading as was the case with Saturday’s slide.
This group consisted of five members. Two guides and three clients. A client in this commercially guided group hit the PWL trigger point on Saturday and took an unexpected ride.
What is the lesson here?
Avalanche as reported to NWAC: Early February persistent weak layers: Crusts and hoar frost buried in early February remain a concern east of the crest. This layer is still within about 2 to 5 feet of the surface in areas east of the crest on some terrain features and continues to be an intermittent but unfortunately perisistent player in human triggered slides. The most recent reported slide occurred last Saturday in the Washington Pass area on a relatively low angled (low 30 degree) north facing slope at about 6500 feet in a larger opening on a treed slope. A snowboarder...who triggered the slab on the February 8 surface hoar layer that released to 70-100cm (~2-3 ft)...was caught but fortunately not injured.
edit to add word "area"
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freeskiguy
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Some more pics
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freeskiguy
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One more pic. THis is a ride you would not want take. So glad that the person was able to escape without injury
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Edgesport
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Anyone read this Union Creek report from 2/19/2012 on NWAC?
http://www.nwac.us/media/uploads/documents/accidents/2011_2012/Union_Creek_Avalanche_Accident_2-19-12.pdf
They are experienced BC'ers, 10 years riding the area together, no visible activity, and proceeded to trigger a slide in a bowl on a roll over. As a result they decided to ski low angle trees and all three got buried, one completely and deeply, and all three thankfully made it out uninjured. I would have made the same call and am only mentioning it here as an example that low angle treed terrain does slide.
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"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, your right"
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freeskiguy
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Those folks(union creek) and other BC skiers are doing a great job reporting avalanche incidents. It helps increase our knowledge base. I'm hoping that the pros in the above incident(east of Wa. pass) do a complete write up and submit it to NWAC.
I am interested in the snow profile analysis of the day and how decisions were made. My understanding is that one of the guides was/is a professional avalanche forecaster. We have a great opportunity to discuss an avalanche incident where no one was injured and a professional viewpoint on a "lessons learned" discussion would greatly benefit everyone.
I have a call into the company to request futher information, but the call has not been returned yet.
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cumulus
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Thanks for the reporting freeskiguy. Some of your reports in the past rubbed me somewhat wrong in their style of presentation, but I've grown to respect what you're doing. It's a tough and noble battle you're waging - attempting to get everybody on board in sharing vital avalanche information openly. Inherent to the commercial outfits seems to be a built in conflict of interest: reporting avalanches is bad for business. And yet inescapedly, it's very much a part of their business. For them the easiest route is just to keep quiet about it. But as you(we) know, it's not the best route in the interest of public safety. Ultimately I believe a balance can be achieved, where those running the commercial outfits can turn transparency into a noble and marketable trait - rather than a liability. But it will take someone of strong character to achieve this. As it stands, the commercial outfits seem to be taking a stance of defense and denial. It's a natural political reaction but it certainly does nothing to increase the level of trust required to book a guided tour.
Let me just state as well that unlike freeskiguy, who seems to be fundamentally against the notion of mixing guiding with commerce, I have no intrinsic issue with commercial guiding outfits.
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Stefan
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Koda
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And yet inescapedly, it's very much a part of their business. For them the easiest route is just to keep quiet about it. But as you(we) know, it's not the best route in the interest of public safety.
just curious what the percentage of professional vs recreational skiers that get caught in avalanche incidents each year? Seems to me in the interest of public safety avalanche incidents and especially education should be $free$ and open to all...
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« Last Edit: 03/29/12, 11:37 AM by Koda »
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lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
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Jeff_Ward
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The avalanche in the Powder Cache was reported directly to NWAC and posted on the avalanche forecast. It would have been nice to post the details on this site as well but the continued harassment from a certain individual has made this site less than welcoming to professionals working in the north cascades. I wish that wasn't the case but unfortunately it is.
The guides will continue to provide snowpack and avalanche observations on the FOAC snowpack information exchange. If you are skiing in the area and would like any additional information please feel free to contact North Cascades Mountain Guides directly. We would be happy to talk to anyone about what we are seeing in the mountains.
Thanks,
Jeff
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Chair2BoardSports
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just curious what the percentage of professional vs recreational skiers that get caught in avalanche incidents each year? Seems to me in the interest of public safety avalanche incidents and especially education should be $free$ and open to all...
We fully agree with this!!! Although we are just a small shop, and in no-way professional avalanche forecasters/guides/etc, we are trying hard to find a way to make affordable or, better yet, FREE backcountry safety education possible. (Not that Chair 2 would be conducting the classes)
The David Pettigrew Foundation is doing a lot to make this possible.
Also, we recently returned from a trip with said company, and felt completely taken care of. They were extremely diligent with their snowpack analysis and unafraid to communicate that information to the group. In addition to safety, the guides gave us a firm "NO" multiple times when we would point out certain slopes to ride that they knew were very unsafe. I personally felt much more at ease with their analysis than I ever have touring with friends and doing this on our own. My impression of this company is that safety is the number one priority and they do as much as they can to share their information with the public.
I would recommend this program to anyone, and already have. 
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freeskiguy
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The avalanche in the Powder Cache was reported directly to NWAC and posted on the avalanche forecast. It would have been nice to post the details on this site as well but the continued harassment from a certain individual has made this site less than welcoming to professionals working in the north cascades. I wish that wasn't the case but unfortunately it is.
The guides will continue to provide snowpack and avalanche observations on the FOAC snowpack information exchange. If you are skiing in the area and would like any additional information please feel free to contact North Cascades Mountain Guides directly. We would be happy to talk to anyone about what we are seeing in the mountains.
Thanks,
Jeff
Cumulus, Very well defined.
Professional guides often investigate and report to NWAC on avalanches that occur to other mountain users but often don’t report their own incidents( injury or death evacs are reported and can‘t be hidden).
If you look at the NWAC avalanche incident records for 12-28-08, you will see a report on an avalanche fatality that occurred on the East Side North Cascades that was investigated in part by a local guide.
That guide was involved in his own avalanche incident on 12-29-08 during what NWAC reported as “ may be the weakest snow structure at this time of the winter in the past 10-20 seasons”. No incident report on NWAC.
There were also two other avalanche incidents on 12-28-08 in our area. One involving a group of guides who triggered an avalanche that hit someone who was following their trail. No incident report on NWAC.
The other incident on 12-28-08, involved a recreational skier who triggered (catch and release, injury) an avalanche that hit two clients(partial burial) in a guided party that followed the recreational groups trail and were guided to ski the avalanche run out path. No incident report on NWAC.
Many more examples exist.
Ultimately, transparency will be achieved with or without involvement from the entire professional guide community . It is just better if it comes voluntarily from them and not by mandate from the Forest Service.
I look forward to a complete report (NWAC incident site) of the March 17th avalanche incident that involved a client on a commercially guided trip. We can only be grateful that no one was killed or physically injured, because from what I observed, this avalanche had that potential.
This is an issue of public safety on public land and therefore, the public’s concern. I report on my areas public land and it’s use and raise issues as needed. This is in no way meant to be a personal attack upon any guide, any where. What would be the point of that? Corrections or comments welcome.
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Jeff_Ward
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Just to clarify.
All of the incidents that Freeskiguy refers to in 2008 were reported to NWAC to help them with their avalanche forecasts.
The partial burial that he referred to was one guest "buried" up to his knees in the standing position. He was hit while skiing (actually shuffling down because it was so low angle) the lower portion of an avalanche path after another party triggered it from above. I was the guide that day and still feel that it was reasonable terrain to be skiing with the stability that we had. Yes, it was an unstable snowpack but the likelihood of natural activity that day was very low due to the weather conditions. It was the type of day that was reasonable to go out in if you were able to keep your slope angles low. I believe that was the mistake the recreational party made that day. They were looking for steeper terrain because the snow was so deep the low angled slopes were not that enjoyable to ski. The mistake I made was assuming they were not going to tour up into that terrain.
As far as transparency goes, NCMG and the guides that work for NCMG are going out of their way to provide snowpack and avalanche information to the public. Avalanche observations (including skier triggered) and snowpack observations are reported to NWAC in order to help with their forecasting. NWAC is contacted directly and snowpack information is regularly posted on NWAC snowpack information exchange. If you look at the exchange this year every single post from the WA Pass area, which there are many, came from a guide from NCMG. This is not a requirement of our permit but something that we do as a public service. This is something that the guides do after a long day of work when they should be spending time with their families. Additionally, NCMG also provides weekly snowpack and avalanche conditions updates on the local radio station to provide local backcountry skiers up-to-date information on what we are observing in the mountains.
For me personally, freeskiguy's continued harassment is making me less inclined to share my observations with the public. I am going to continue to share my observations because the more observations we have the better decisions we can all make as backcountry travelers. I would encourage everyone to do the same.
Jeff
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ron j
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I love your stuff and am a fan and think you post great advice and show much experience and wisdom.
However, you seem to also have an agenda with regards the heli-skiing outfit up there and push it hard in your rhetoric.
Probably just me...but it diminished the really good stuff you write .
My 2 cents/
Anyway..thanks freeskiguy, good reminder.
Freeski, you would have been wise to listen to the sage advice of TAY’s most titled member and moderator of the moderators.
You have made some great contributions to TAY with your experience and knowledge.
Please don’t undermine your value by trying wage your personal wars on TAY. It is not our purpose.
This campaign has gone on way too long.
One of the moderators here has skied with a guides who seemed quite open about both incidents that had happened on their watch as well as what they saw as some of their very lucky mistakes (cases where they made a wrong call and lucked out). I would hope the they would all live up to a similar standard. However, if they don’t, will harassment lead them to change? I doubt it. It’s just going to prevent them from participating on TAY.
This public attempt to change another’s behavior (if that is what it is) is not only ineffective but it comes across as defamatory and invasive of a person's privacy. Such behavior is in violation of the TAY Terms of Use and could result in the revocation of a member’s privileges.
If there is a crusade to lead, please run it elsewhere. TAY has repeatedly turned out to be a troublesome and ineffective venue for online wars. If there is an issue here, a more effective venue might be taking it up with AMGA and IFMGA versus attempting to use TAY to pressure others. Or start your own blog site if you feel the need of an internet pulpit.
Jeff, thank you for taking the time to give your perception of the issues. I feel ashamed that it got to the point where you felt the need. We have appreciated your contributions to TAY.
[edit – forgot an “in” on ineffective. Tks JD.]
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« Last Edit: 04/04/12, 10:33 AM by ron j »
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"When I stop having fun I'm turnin' around"
“Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future.” - Niels Bohr
"If a given person makes it a priority not to die in an avalanche, he or she stands a very good chance of living a long, happy life in the mountains." - Jill Fredston
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sneaky_steve
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As always I appreciate the openness and civility here on TAY. With endless amount of online avalanche discussion it can get "thick' at times to say the least. IMHO the community needs strong relationships between knowledgeable, experienced recreational users and professional guides to enhance safety and the sharing of information. It is sad to see threads like this develop unnecessarily. In my (simple) mind it seems like needless meddling involving intricacies of different user groups (recreational vs. guided). Just my $.02 as well.
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freeskiguy
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Ron, This discussion is not meant as a personal vendeta against any commercial guide outfit. It is an issue of public safety in my area. The primary responsibility of a guide is to keep clients out of harms way. When this is not done, the guide is at fault. Simple.
Commercial outfitters are private companies opperating on public land and when accidents happen on public land, it is my opinion that it is the publics' business and should be able to be discussed without out being accused of harassment. This accusation is being because I disclosed information about avalanches that happened to guided groups yet guides report on avalanches that happen to other users and no one screems harressment.I also provided information on the "powder cauhe" instabilies due to our PWL. This information was provided to help keep skier,including guides, informed of thedangers there. We require more information then that " a slide occured near WA Pass to a snowboarder". If private companies working on public land can't provide that information to the public, maybe they should find some private land to work on.
Avalanche incident reports by these companies need to be made available to the public. It is important for the public to understand that avalanche accidents happen to guided groups. How often? How can we know? What is the cause, how can we know? The
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« Last Edit: 04/05/12, 05:59 PM by freeskiguy »
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ron j
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We do not dispute the validity of your cause. We only ask that you present you stands on the matter elsewhere… Please.
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"When I stop having fun I'm turnin' around"
“Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future.” - Niels Bohr
"If a given person makes it a priority not to die in an avalanche, he or she stands a very good chance of living a long, happy life in the mountains." - Jill Fredston
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CookieMonster
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I've kicked off a couple nasty little pushers this winter and I didn't tell anyone.
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freeskiguy
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I've kicked off a couple nasty little pushers this winter and I didn't tell anyone.
Were the slides skier mitigated slides or were you the trigger for an avalanche incident? There is a difference. Is there a lesson here you care to share? I'm hoping no one was injured. Until I started reading TAY, I saw little need to share information. Eyes wide shut,so to speak. Now I know better.
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Jeff_Ward
5Member
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Posts: 96
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We require more information then that " a slide occured near WA Pass to a snowboarder". If private companies working on public land can't provide that information to the public, maybe they should find some private land to work on.
I hate to continue commenting on this thread but it's comments like this that turn your posts into harassment. You imply that the only information provided by the NWAC report was there was a slide triggered by a snowboarder. The report stated the aspect, elevation, depth of crown, failure layer and trigger. If you are going to continue this harassment please try to be more accurate.
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